Getting Sued

[ylrebmik]

How many times does the average doctor get sued? Will I be sued if I continue in vet medicine?

Just curious.

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[Law2Doc]

How many times does the average doctor get sued? Will I be sued if I continue in vet medicine?

Just curious.

vet medicine is very different than being an MD/DO. The average MD/DO will be sued at least once in his career. Folks in surgery and OBGYN can count on being sued more than once. In most cases, your insurance covers it and it has no impact on your career, it's just a cost of doing business. If it becomes a repeating or regular pattern for you, you can lose hospital privileges and maybe your medical license.

Vets get sued a lot less because under the law their patients are property, the value placed on such property tends not to be high enough for folks to find lawyers or rush into court, and autopsies to determine cause of death are not common. You tend to carry a lot less malpractice insurance, and pet owners generally won't sue you. It's a totally different career, different dynamic, and probably shouldn't be lumped together, because differences in these career paths outweigh similarities, IMHO.

 

[ylrebmik]

Yeah I understand that they are completly different. Just trying to keep options open and curious about things.

 

[Electrophile]

Law2Doc, yes, you can and/or will be sued in vet medicine. It's becoming increasingly common. You can also have complaints be submitted to the state board, which even if you win, can cost you in lost time and legal fees. This is an increasing concern and trend towards CYA defensive medicine, especially as people are demanding the same level of care for their animals as themselves, but they don't want to pay for it. I've heard on VIN.com that there are now lawyers going specifically after veterinary doctors. It's coming.

And they are called necropsies, not autopsies, and they are quite often performed both in private practice for both small animal and large animal and at the diagnostic laboratories. Heck, if you're a zoo vet intern/resident, that's half of what you do is cutting up the dead stuff that died the day before!

 

[zenman]

Vets get sued a lot less because under the law their patients are property, the value placed on such property tends not to be high enough for folks to find lawyers or rush into court, and autopsies to determine cause of death are not common. You tend to carry a lot less malpractice insurance, and pet owners generally won't sue you. It's a totally different career, different dynamic, and probably shouldn't be lumped together, because differences in these career paths outweigh similarities, IMHO.

And if you break down and cry when you tell a pet owner that his pet has died, you'll get sued even less...

 

[Electrophile]

That's probably true of human patients as well.

What typically happens is this (read about this on VIN a few weeks ago actually)...some trashy idiot who shouldn't have pets in the first place brings in a dog who needs teeth extracted from improper diet/poor husbandry. Maybe chewing on the logging chain that keeps it chained to their trailer.

They don't want to spend $400-500 on the full work up (pre-anesth CBC, chem panel, rads, IV cath, intubation). They want "the minimum" or otherwise the dog is euthanized. The doc doesn't want to see the dog PTS or in pain, so the dog gets masked down with isoflurane or an injectable, no blood work, no IV fluids, and the dog codes while on the operating table trying to get the fractured tooth out because it went hypotensive during anesthesia. The owner sues the doctor and reports them to the state board because they were not following standards of care in the sake of $$. So in the name of trying to help someone out, they get screwed. CYA defensive medicine is getting to be the name of the game.

 

[ylrebmik]

Law2Doc, yes, you can and/or will be sued in vet medicine. It's becoming increasingly common. You can also have complaints be submitted to the state board, which even if you win, can cost you in lost time and legal fees. This is an increasing concern and trend towards CYA defensive medicine, especially as people are demanding the same level of care for their animals as themselves, but they don't want to pay for it. I've heard on VIN.com that there are now lawyers going specifically after veterinary doctors. It's coming.

And they are called necropsies, not autopsies, and they are quite often performed both in private practice for both small animal and large animal and at the diagnostic laboratories. Heck, if you're a zoo vet intern/resident, that's half of what you do is cutting up the dead stuff that died the day before!

That sucks. Vets make 1/2 as much money and now on the verge of getting sued just as much? If you're a vet intern/ resident... all you do is cut dead stuff up? really?

 

[MSKalltheway]

They don't want to spend $400-500 on the full work up (pre-anesth CBC, chem panel, rads, IV cath, intubation). They want "the minimum" or otherwise the dog is euthanized. The doc doesn't want to see the dog PTS or in pain, so the dog gets masked down with isoflurane or an injectable, no blood work, no IV fluids, and the dog codes while on the operating table trying to get the fractured tooth out because it went hypotensive during anesthesia. The owner sues the doctor and reports them to the state board because they were not following standards of care in the sake of $$. So in the name of trying to help someone out, they get screwed. CYA defensive medicine is getting to be the name of the game.

Hmph, sounds just like human medicine...I'm sorry that its gonna come down on vets too, that just sucks. People suing often times results from how our society decides that accepting responsibility for ones own actions cannot be possible. I think if I ever get sued for something stupid, I'll counter-sue them for wasting my damn time.

 

[ylrebmik]

Hmph, sounds just like human medicine...I'm sorry that its gonna come down on vets too, that just sucks. People suing often times results from how our society decides that accepting responsibility for ones own actions cannot be possible. I think if I ever get sued for something stupid, I'll counter-sue them for wasting my damn time.

haha. love that. In middle school I wanted to become a lawyer for a short time then I took classes like US law and such and now I can't stand them. But thats another issue. haha.

You know when kids are all like "thats the most amazing job" I can't wait till I can be ________ when I grow up! Well I'm finally reaching that point where you're like ... crap it's not going to be perfect. I still want to do this more than anything... but it's an eye opener with everything.

 

[Electrophile]

That sucks. Vets make 1/2 as much money and now on the verge of getting sued just as much? If you're a vet intern/ resident... all you do is cut dead stuff up? really?

I shadowed at the Omaha Zoo before I applied and yeah, it seems like necropsy duty took up a significant portion of your day if you were an intern/resident. I don't think the average visitor realizes how much stuff dies every day at a large zoo. I helped the two interns do all sorts of dead critters. A rock hyrax who died from dystocia (I got to necropsy the fetus, way cool), a tufted puffin (smelled like fish, yuck), and even an endangered monkey, which was sad (can't remember the species though).

 

[ylrebmik]

I shadowed at the Omaha Zoo before I applied and yeah, it seems like necropsy duty took up a significant portion of your day if you were an intern/resident. I don't think the average visitor realizes how much stuff dies every day at a large zoo. I helped the two interns do all sorts of dead critters. A rock hyrax who died from dystocia (I got to necropsy the fetus, way cool), a tufted puffin (smelled like fish, yuck), and even an endangered monkey, which was sad (can't remember the species though).

Zoo Medicine was the area I was interested in the most. I guess I never realized that either.... Are you going into zoo medicine?

 

[Electrophile]

I wanted to, but I decided against it because it's extremely competitive (lots of people want to do it, almost no spots because you're limited by the number of zoos/wildlife facilities out there) and the pay is only about 60-70% of what you make in private practice typically. So I'm going to specialize in holistic nutrition (will probably do a nutrition residency), but will be a mixed practice vet. Ideally, I'd like to do 60-70% small animal and the remainder be an equal mix of equine, food animal, and exotics. If you're in private practice and want to do exotics, there's a growing need for it because more and more people are keeping exotic pets.

 

[ylrebmik]

I wanted to, but I decided against it because it's extremely competitive (lots of people want to do it, almost no spots because you're limited by the number of zoos/wildlife facilities out there) and the pay is only about 60-70% of what you make in private practice typically. So I'm going to specialize in holistic nutrition (will probably do a nutrition residency), but will be a mixed practice vet. Ideally, I'd like to do 60-70% small animal and the remainder be an equal mix of equine, food animal, and exotics. If you're in private practice and want to do exotics, there's a growing need for it because more and more people are keeping exotic pets.

I know that its reallly competitve, and it makes me sad. haha. I still really want to do this though. Maybe I'll be one of the lucky ones. Or I'll change what I really want to do and still be lucky. haha.

 

[Aznfarmerboi]

Law2Doc, yes, you can and/or will be sued in vet medicine. It's becoming increasingly common. You can also have complaints be submitted to the state board, which even if you win, can cost you in lost time and legal fees. This is an increasing concern and trend towards CYA defensive medicine, especially as people are demanding the same level of care for their animals as themselves, but they don't want to pay for it. I've heard on VIN.com that there are now lawyers going specifically after veterinary doctors. It's coming.

And they are called necropsies, not autopsies, and they are quite often performed both in private practice for both small animal and large animal and at the diagnostic laboratories. Heck, if you're a zoo vet intern/resident, that's half of what you do is cutting up the dead stuff that died the day before!

It is common for any professional to get sued/ or recieve complaints via their state board. However Vets still by no means get sued as much as a physician would for the reasons law2doc mentioned. Heck, they have it easy just in complaints alone based on what i saw in disciplinary boards. You can also compare MD versus Vet malpractice insurance premiums.

 

[Law2Doc]

I've heard on VIN.com that there are now lawyers going specifically after veterinary doctors. It's coming.

And they are called necropsies, not autopsies, and they are quite often performed both in private practice for both small animal and large animal and at the diagnostic laboratories. Heck, if you're a zoo vet intern/resident, that's half of what you do is cutting up the dead stuff that died the day before!

It's a matter of degree -- the number of lawsuits relating to pets is pretty nominal compared to relatives, because of the low values the law puts on "property" as compared to "person". I doubt there's enough money in it to sustain lawyers specifically going after vets, but I suppose if some folks can make a living on traffic tickets, it's not inconceivable somebody is going to try to do a volume business of this kind of small potato lawsuit as well.

As for necropsies -- people don't have zoo animals as pets (at least legally), so the folks who work in zoos aren't what we are talking about. Nobody is paying for an autopsy on their dead cat fluffy.

 

[Tired]

I doubt there's enough money in it to sustain lawyers specifically going after vets . . .

It's the TV test: If lawyers advertise for it on TV, it's making money. That's why I can't watch 10 minutes of cable before I see an ad for asbestos suits, drug side-effect suits, or CP suits.

I've never seen a "Did you beloved pet die during a routine medical procedure?" commercial.

 

[Electrophile]

It's a matter of degree -- the number of lawsuits relating to pets is pretty nominal compared to relatives, because of the low values the law puts on "property" as compared to "person". I doubt there's enough money in it to sustain lawyers specifically going after vets, but I suppose if some folks can make a living on traffic tickets, it's not inconceivable somebody is going to try to do a volume business of this kind of small potato lawsuit as well.

As for necropsies -- people don't have zoo animals as pets (at least legally), so the folks who work in zoos aren't what we are talking about. Nobody is paying for an autopsy on their dead cat fluffy.

I'm not in favor of this, but in many areas, the property issue for companion issues may switch to guardianship instead of property. And I know you're an expert on everything and all , but YES, they do pay to perform necropsies (not autopsies) on their dead pets and their livestock. Once again, I think this shows your complete ignorance of what it is that we do. So next time, do a little research before you speak on a whim. Or heck, go down to the nearest vet teaching hospital and see what how great medicine can be when egos aren't the most important part of the picture. Part of our job (and our oath) is to promote public health. Just because you don't give a crap about animals doesn't mean they aren't incredibly important for a wide variety of reasons, from economic to medical to emotional.

Every day we sit in our pathology classes, we see photo after photo after photo ad nauseum (often literally) of necropsy pictures. We also have pathology labs where we see what was brought into the diagnostic lab. We also have a necropsy rotation during clinical years for both small and large animals and it's something you do frequently in private practice for animals, especially those who die suddenly. This is important for a number of reasons:

1) people want to know what/why their pet died (because it was sudden, for closure, for interest, they want to make sure it won't spread to other pets, etc)
2) most of the emerging human pathogens are zoonotic. So yes, unequivocally, I'd say it's a darn good idea to figure out if the sheep had anthrax, the pig from foot and mouth (not strictly zoonotic, but it would be devastating to this country's economy if we had an outbreak here), the cow had BSE, the horse had brucellosis, the dog had rabies, the cat had toxoplasmosis, the pet prairie dog from Yersinia pestis or Coccoides immitis, the chickens from bird influenza or histoplasmosis, the imported parrot from psittacosis, and on and on and on.

 

[Tired]

And I know you're an expert on everything and all , but YES, they do pay to perform necropsies (not autopsies) on their dead pets and their livestock. Once again, I think this shows your complete ignorance of what it is that we do. So next time, do a little research before you speak on a whim. Or heck, go down to the nearest vet teaching hospital and see what how great medicine can be when egos aren't the most important part of the picture. Part of our job (and our oath) is to promote public health. Just because you don't give a crap about animals doesn't mean they aren't incredibly important for a wide variety of reasons, from economic to medical to emotional.

Damn, I never knew vets got so grumpy.

Maybe you need some pet therapy . . .

 

[pressmom]

I think this is a matter of vets being thought of as typical companion animal vets. There's a whole lot more to it than that. Vets in public health do necropsies, large animal vets do field necropsies for insurance (apparently a lot of cow farmers take out insurance for lightning stikes, who knew?) as well as for the infectious diseases Elecrtophile mentioned, and referral and teaching hospitals do a HECK of a lot of necropsies.

Anyway, back to being sued. A few cases I can site specifically:

Cat comes in for a spay. For God knows what reason, the vet decides to give just ketamine for anesthesia (bad news on abdominal surgery!) and the office I work at gets called by a lawyer to see if that is appropriate anesthesia.

Dog comes in for boarding. Kennel staff puts large dog A in run with small dog B who doesn't know dog A. A fight ensues and small dog dies. Owner sues the hospital.

Teacup yorkie comes in for grooming. Gets put in a cage with a drier. Dies. Comes to UTK for necropsy. Can't remember the outcome of the necropsy, and I'm pretty sure the groomer got sued.

Just a few I can think of off the top of the top of my head.

 

[ylrebmik]

Damn, I never knew vets got so grumpy.

Maybe you need some pet therapy . . .

Thats sorta rude. I know a bunch of vets that are really fed up with this and really bothered by this too. Even normal people I know think being a vet is 100X easier than a human doctor. The way some people talk about vets or say things that aren't true based on humans is so irritating. Anyways, I don't want to turn this into an argument so don't take it the wrong way.

 

[docB]

Cat comes in for a spay. For God knows what reason, the vet decides to give just ketamine for anesthesia (bad news on abdominal surgery!) and the office I work at gets called by a lawyer to see if that is appropriate anesthesia.

Since you guys are starting to get lawyered all over like we are you will have to start being careful about what you say and who you talk to. If a lawyer is calling your office and asking questions like was such and such appropriate then he's trying to use you as an expert and a case reviewer. Those are things that they pay for. So you first have to decide if you want to be the type who acts as an expert against your colleagues and then, if you do, you need to work out a fee schedule for the shyster to pay you for your work.

Just out of curiosity why is ketamine alone bad for surgery? We use it on kids all the time for minor procedures.

 

[pressmom]

Since you guys are starting to get lawyered all over like we are you will have to start being careful about what you say and who you talk to. If a lawyer is calling your office and asking questions like was such and such appropriate then he's trying to use you as an expert and a case reviewer. Those are things that they pay for. So you first have to decide if you want to be the type who acts as an expert against your colleagues and then, if you do, you need to work out a fee schedule for the shyster to pay you for your work.

Just out of curiosity why is ketamine alone bad for surgery? We use it on kids all the time for minor procedures.

On the first note, I think it was more of a poll thing because I looked it up in the court records and they had called 30 veterinary offices asking the same question.

As to the second question, spays are not minor procedures. They are ovariohysterectomies. Ketamine, at least as I have been taught, causes muscle rigidity at a dose necessary for surgical procedures. You probably don't want a rigid patient to do an abdominal surgery! Also IM ket only lasts 10-40 minutes and IV ket only about 10 (at least in dogs and cats), and while you can usually do a neuter in that period of time, a spay can get more complicated. Ket is often combined with valium or midazolam (if you have the $$ for midazolam) to provide the necessary muscle relaxation if you're doing a visceral procedure. But most of the time, this combination is used for induction and the patient is maintained on gas (usually iso or sevo). But like I said, neuters are a different story. I was neutering cats this weekend just using ketamine and acepromazine, but cat neuters are a really simple procedure and generally don't take longer than 5 minutes.

 

[Tired]

Just out of curiosity why is ketamine alone bad for surgery?

Because you don't want the dog to fall into a K-hole?