Go DO even if highly interested in Psychiatry?

[SixStringPsych]

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Anyone have any advice or know any DOs who are psychiatrists? I know med school is a long road and I may not even end up wanting to do psychiatry, but it's been my dream for a while now and it's what I'm most interested in.

Just looking for any tips or advice on the whole DO specialization thing since I know most DOs go into primary care and getting other specialties is tough.

Thanks!

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

The Psych Resident forum is heavily populated by DO's and it can be said that DO's are well represented in the field of psychiatry and neurology. I can also say that psychiatry is one of the most uncompetitive fields so that even as a DO you'll have no problem matching into a top tier program if you have a decent USMLE score.

Furthermore most people MD or DO do residencies in primary care.

 

[scotchtapetest]

Anyone have any advice or know any DOs who are psychiatrists? I know med school is a long road and I may not even end up wanting to do psychiatry, but it's been my dream for a while now and it's what I'm most interested in.

Just looking for any tips or advice on the whole DO specialization thing since I know most DOs go into primary care and getting other specialties is tough.

Thanks!

Assuming from your post count that you're not a troll:

Psych is one of the least competitive specialties and you will have no problem (assuming you will be an average student). Just look at the match lists from DO schools (sounds like a fairly easy task and takes few minutes)! FYI, in many (if not most) cases Peds and IM which are primary care specialties are more competitive than Psych.

To address your second paragraph, there is not that much of a difference between the percentage of DOs who go into primary care specialties and US MDs. It's like 50some% compared to 40some%. So don't make comments like that unless you want to get flamed.

 

[museic]

Your dream is to become a psychiatrist?

I'm sorry to hear that.

I'm biased though...I really liked Randle McMurphy.

 

[Goro]

One of my good Faculty colleagues is a DO and a psychiatrist. And every year at least five of our graduates go into psychiatry.

Anyone have any advice or know any DOs who are psychiatrists? I know med school is a long road and I may not even end up wanting to do psychiatry, but it's been my dream for a while now and it's what I'm most interested in.

Just looking for any tips or advice on the whole DO specialization thing since I know most DOs go into primary care and getting other specialties is tough.

Thanks!

 

[TriagePreMed]

I don't know why there's this pervasive thought that DO's only do primary care and specialties are closed to them. That's far from the truth. It's only surgery related specialties that are hard to obtain through ACGME training, but they are available through AOA. Becoming a psychiatrist is a walk in the park for a DO. I even see Caribbean people matching at programs like UCLA.

 

[SixStringPsych]

Your dream is to become a psychiatrist?

I'm sorry to hear that.

I'm biased though...I really liked Randle McMurphy.

Thanks for everyone who had something constructive to say. And I apologize for generalizing about the whole primary care thing, it was simply ignorance that led me to say that, thanks for letting me know that plenty of people go into other specialties, really puts me at ease about possibly having to go DO due to my stats.

 

[SixStringPsych]

Again, not that there's anything wrong with being a DO, just seemed unorthodox to me in a mental health profession is all. Or even if I wanted to something like Peds or Neuro the idea of it being harder to get residencies is obviously a drawback.

 

[museic]

If you are going to go the meme route at least use something original.

 

[pattr]

Again, not that there's anything wrong with being a DO, just seemed unorthodox to me in a mental health profession is all. Or even if I wanted to something like Peds or Neuro the idea of it being harder to get residencies is obviously a drawback.

Actually, currently percentage-wise more DO's go into psychiatry than MDs. Given the "mind, body, spirit" unity of osteopathic philosophy it's not surprising to me that many DOs would have an interest in mental health.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=828585
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=813819

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Again, not that there's anything wrong with being a DO, just seemed unorthodox to me in a mental health profession is all. Or even if I wanted to something like Peds or Neuro the idea of it being harder to get residencies is obviously a drawback.

Why is it unorthodox in a mental health profession? Also pediatrics is the most uncompetitive field in the world, neurology is very uncompetitive on-par with psychiatry. Now in regard to residency difficulty, in about 95% of fields this is a half-true, with DO's having trouble getting residencies only in the upper tier hospitals . Now in regard to the last 5%, specialties like RadOnc, surgical subspecialties ( not gen surgery) , DO's generally have a very low chance of matching on the ACGME side and will need to rely on the AOA residency match.

In case you don't know, the AOA is the residency match program for DO's only. DO's after completing an AOA DO residency can practice as if they did an ACGME MD residency.

 

[pattr]

Your dream is to become a psychiatrist?

I'm sorry to hear that.

I'm biased though...I really liked Randle McMurphy.

Why judge someone's dream anyway?

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Why judge someone's dream anyway?

Some people are very anti-psychiatry.

 

[museic]

Why judge someone's dream anyway?

Because I'm a soul crusher.

In all seriousness I was not judging. It was a joke referencing "one flew over the ****oo's nest". More power to someone following their dream. I do get tired of people not wanting to go DO because it may make their dream harder to get (not in this case). If it's your dream then you should stop at nothing to achieve it...even going the dreaded (insert sarcasm) Osteopathic route.

 

[museic]

Some people are very anti-psychiatry.

That would not be me. Not my cup of tea (at this time), but it certainly serves a large purpose.

EDIT: And even if I did dislike it, I would still appreciate the fact that they tick the Tom Cruise's of the world off.

 

[WorldChanger36]

I don't know why there's this pervasive thought that DO's only do primary care and specialties are closed to them. That's far from the truth. It's only surgery related specialties that are hard to obtain through ACGME training, but they are available through AOA. Becoming a psychiatrist is a walk in the park for a DO. I even see Caribbean people matching at programs like UCLA.

Blame the Pre Allo forum... They have been pushing that crap for awhile however it has been better over the last two years. Pre med councilors and advisers don't help this problem either.

Also the only two GS DOs I know did their training through ACGME and both made it seem like they worked their butts off to get those residencies however they assured me if you put in the work in school to get high pass and nail both the COMLEX and USMLE and the time in research and form a strong relationship with a General surgeon, no residency program will pass you up because of the letters behind your name. They will take a DO over an IMG any day.

 

[SixStringPsych]

Why is it unorthodox in a mental health profession? Also pediatrics is the most uncompetitive field in the world, neurology is very uncompetitive on-par with psychiatry. Now in regard to residency difficulty, in about 95% of fields this is a half-true, with DO's having trouble getting residencies only in the upper tier hospitals . Now in regard to the last 5%, specialties like RadOnc, surgical subspecialties ( not gen surgery) , DO's generally have a very low chance of matching on the ACGME side and will need to rely on the AOA residency match.

In case you don't know, the AOA is the residency match program for DO's only. DO's after completing an AOA DO residency can practice as if they did an ACGME MD residency.

I'm understanding more and more how uncompetitive the specialties I'm interested in are serenade, thanks so much. Anything I say is out of pure ignorance, I'm trying to learn more. My deeper concern over just plain old matching into a residency in these non competitive specialties would be matching into the "good" or more prestigious programs. I'm sure this is certainly tougher for a DO, no? Regardless, seems like it can be done, given I've got the right USMLE scores.

And it's true if Psychiatry or medicine in general is my dream I should stop at nothing whether MD or DO to achieve it. It's weird for me because I came from wanting to get my PhD in clinical psych to realizing I would rather be a psychiatrist and not miss out on being able to prescribe meds as well. Then I realized I would also be happy in Peds or Neuro, and well I'm much more impressionable and ready to find my path in medicine now than I ever have been before.

Thanks to all for the helpful advice!

 

[WorldChanger36]

The Psychiatrist I shadowed ( if you can call it shadowing, more like advise time in his office and we would discuss cases, patients most of the time refused to have me in the room) was a DO. Went to NOVA. He had a super think accent and after I got the idea he wasn't to happy I was there I left. There are a few DOs in all kinds of specialties and they get there in tons of different ways. So don't worry about it, just get into school and I bet you will change your mind about what you want to do at least twice.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

That would not be me. Not my cup of tea (at this time), but it certainly serves a large purpose.

EDIT: And even if I did dislike it, I would still appreciate the fact that they tick the Tom Cruise's of the world off.

Well, people in this country barely understand basic biology at a 9th grade level. You want them to understand mental illness, which is potentially the most mysterious and complex area of the body? Generally this is one of the problems with a lot of people, they believe their ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.
Now in regard to scientologists, well god. They actually believe that mental illness is a sign of you relieving your glorious past lives and by experiencing these things you open the door to your past worlds and crap like that. It's beyond hilarious.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

The Psychiatrist I shadowed ( if you can call it shadowing, more like advise time in his office and we would discuss cases, patients most of the time refused to have me in the room) was a DO. Went to NOVA. He had a super think accent and after I got the idea he wasn't to happy I was there I left. There are a few DOs in all kinds of specialties and they get there in tons of different ways. So don't worry about it, just get into school and I bet you will change your mind about what you want to do at least twice.

I didn't know psychiatrist shadowing is legal lol.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I'm understanding more and more how uncompetitive the specialties I'm interested in are serenade, thanks so much. Anything I say is out of pure ignorance, I'm trying to learn more. My deeper concern over just plain old matching into a residency in these non competitive specialties would be matching into the "good" or more prestigious programs. I'm sure this is certainly tougher for a DO, no? Regardless, seems like it can be done, given I've got the right USMLE scores.

And it's true if Psychiatry or medicine in general is my dream I should stop at nothing whether MD or DO to achieve it. It's weird for me because I came from wanting to get my PhD in clinical psych to realizing I would rather be a psychiatrist and not miss out on being able to prescribe meds as well. Then I realized I would also be happy in Peds or Neuro, and well I'm much more impressionable and ready to find my path in medicine now than I ever have been before.

Thanks to all for the helpful advice!

Depends on the specialty. In Psychiatry, Neurology, PM&R, and a few others, you as a DO can match a top program, most other residencies mid ranked programs are in relative reach and if you're a spectacular candidate you can match a high program ( relatively similar to MD, except where as the top 5% of DO class goes to top programs, more like 20% of MDs go to top residencies). But again, a mid-ranked or even a low tier residency will make you a practicing physician.

 

[HalfListic]

I didn't know psychiatrist shadowing is legal lol.

Haha, true!

On a related note, I remember asking an OB/GYN if I could shadow her while I was in high school. She gave me a Whoopie Goldberg "you otta know better" look...haha.

 

[museic]

Well, people in this country barely understand basic biology at a 9th grade level. You want them to understand mental illness, which is potentially the most mysterious and complex area of the body? Generally this is one of the problems with a lot of people, they believe their ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.
Now in regard to scientologists, well god. They actually believe that mental illness is a sign of you relieving your glorious past lives and by experiencing these things you open the door to your past worlds and crap like that. It's beyond hilarious.

I hear you brother. In a perfect world we would spend 30%+ of our resources on research and development. That's not in the bible though so instead lets go blow each other up and fight over a desert.

As far as Scientology...it's all about the Thetan's baby.



and if someone wants to post a meme, now would be a great time for a "wow, that escalated quickly" reference.

 

[peppy]

I'm a psychiatry resident and a DO. Pretty sure that most people at my residency program aren't even aware that I'm a DO. It's truly not that big of a deal, even though it seems like a huge deal as a pre-med.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I hear you brother. In a perfect world we would spend 30%+ of our resources on research and development. That's not in the bible though so instead lets go blow each other up and fight over a desert.

As far as Scientology...it's all about the Thetan's baby.



and if someone wants to post a meme, now would be a great time for a "wow, that escalated quickly" reference.

Indeed, we should spend some time rethinking our world and how we run it.

 

[Bacchus]

No one really wants to do psych. Its not competitive. There's a lot of FMGs in it from my experience.

 

[MedicinaeDoctor]

this hasn't come up and not that it should play that big of a factor, but psych does give a great lifestyle.

 

[SixStringPsych]

Thanks Bacchus I'm slowly realizing how noncompetitive it is, easing my nerves a whole lot. Guess I'll just have to wait and see when I apply to med school next cycle and not stress over MD vs. DO right now.

Although, if I'm going to apply DO, I'm going to need some DO shadowing/an LOR from a DO right? Is an LOR absolutely necessary? Can anyone shed some light on how they got to shadow a DO? Cold emailing to see if anyone will let you?

 

[museic]

this hasn't come up and not that it should play that big of a factor, but psych does give a great lifestyle.

I don't know if I agree with that. While I could not find a reliable source in my 2 minute google search, It has been suggested many times that psychiatrist have a higher suicide rate than other professions. I'd imagine that if this were true then by default depression rates would be higher. Pay is lower and I have seen reported in at least one article that psychiatrist have the highest divorce rate among doctors (to my surprise). Of coarse I'm not trying to bash the profession here. Psychiatry is a very important profession but it certainly has its challenges to overcome. This could be a reason that there are plenty of spots open every year.

 

[Cinclus]

Haha, true!

On a related note, I remember asking an OB/GYN if I could shadow her while I was in high school. She gave me a Whoopie Goldberg "you otta know better" look...haha.

Sounds like she just didn't want to be bothered. I shadowed for almost 100 hours with a gynecologist. The vast majority of the patients agreed to allow me in the exam room.

 

[NeuroLAX]

Thanks Bacchus I'm slowly realizing how noncompetitive it is, easing my nerves a whole lot. Guess I'll just have to wait and see when I apply to med school next cycle and not stress over MD vs. DO right now.

Although, if I'm going to apply DO, I'm going to need some DO shadowing/an LOR from a DO right? Is an LOR absolutely necessary? Can anyone shed some light on how they got to shadow a DO? Cold emailing to see if anyone will let you?

Depends on the school. Many accept both, some say "DO highly suggested" or something of the sort, while others (LECOM) require it. If you can get one, even if you don't have to, I would get one. It gives you something to talk about during interviews, especially the "why DO/osteopathic medicine?" question. These days, experience is helpful, often required. People are always looking for experienced individuals.

I don't know if I agree with that. While I could not find a reliable source in my 2 minute google search, It has been suggested many times that psychiatrist have a higher suicide rate than other professions. I'd imagine that if this were true then by default depression rates would be higher. Pay is lower and I have seen reported in at least one article that psychiatrist have the highest divorce rate among doctors (to my surprise). Of coarse I'm not trying to bash the profession here. Psychiatry is a very important profession but it certainly has its challenges to overcome. This could be a reason that there are plenty of spots open every year.

Just in case you were still looking for those sources 😉:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7400103?dopt=Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3494382?dopt=Abstract

Also interesting: http://www.medscape.com/features/slideshow/lifestyle/2012/public

 

[milosavljevic]

No one really wants to do psych. Its not competitive. There's a lot of FMGs in it from my experience.

I guess I don't really have much experience with psychiatry besides working at a VA hospital (I've never actually shadowed a psychiatrist so I have a limited understanding), but can someone explain reasons why medical students avoid this route when looking at residencies? I've found that interacting with veterans who are mentally unstable has been an incredible learning experience and I've enjoyed interacting with many veterans. I know this is a naive question, but what are some reasons why it's not considered a desirable field (besides pay which has been mentioned)? It seems like there are so many different areas of psych you could go into, are they all equally undesirable?

He had a super think accent and after I got the idea he wasn't to happy I was there I left.

Did he say anything about why he wasn't happy? I know this is just one interaction but I'd be interested to know why he was unfulfilled.

 

[Bacchus]

I guess I don't really have much experience with psychiatry besides working at a VA hospital (I've never actually shadowed a psychiatrist so I have a limited understanding), but can someone explain reasons why medical students avoid this route when looking at residencies? I've found that interacting with veterans who are mentally unstable has been an incredible learning experience and I've enjoyed interacting with many veterans. I know this is a naive question, but what are some reasons why it's not considered a desirable field (besides pay which has been mentioned)? It seems like there are so many different areas of psych you could go into, are they all equally undesirable?



Did he say anything about why he wasn't happy? I know this is just one interaction but I'd be interested to know why he was unfulfilled.

The pay is low, the field isn't looked highly upon (it is what it is) and there are people that find satisfaction, but it can be hard to do since you never "fix" anyone, just try to make it better.

 

[psychgirrrl]

Here is something I found:

http://www.medscape.com/features/slideshow/lifestyle/2012/public

Hope it's useful so you can start thinking about it. Honestly I think you won't know what you really want until you are there experiencing it. I was really happy in my psych related job and then when I shadowed a Family Doctor and an Anesthesiologist I could see myself doing those jobs as well. I think you need to experience it all to make a good decision. Psychology is everywhere though, even if you aren't treating your patients for psychological disorders it is still important to consider them in a psychosocial manner. So it will never hurt to have a psychology background.

 

[SixStringPsych]

Yes definitely psychgrrl. There is also the field of psychosomatic medicine in which you must be very familiar with all aspects of medicine so you can consult other physicians if they feel their patient has a psychiatric problem resulting from their illness, super interesting to me.

I feel that people stay away from Psychiatry because of all the aforementioned things (less pay, less prestige, etc) in addition to the fact that most people that go into medicine don't really want to hear about people's problems all day, especially problems that can't be "fixed" with a medicine or a surgical procedure like someone said above. Honestly I feel like it just takes a certain type of person, you have to really love mental health and be ok with less money (don't have a lot of loans, etc). I personally think doctors make plenty and im not in it for the money. Nothing against those who are but clearly Psychiatry vs. other specialties is way different than deciding between Cardio Surg vs. Neurosurg or something similar. I'm totally ok with less pay and less prestige (among physicians). Gotta love what you do

 

[se20001984]

I highly recommend doing a shadowing of the profession

the field is nothing like Fraiser....

 

[SixStringPsych]

I've never seen Frasier so that's a start

 

[cliquesh]

I thought inpatient psychiatry was pretty cool. You work like 40hrs a week and get paid around 200k. The downsides, however, are that it smells like poo and no one seems to get any better.

 

[BS81]

The top tier residencies are essentially closed off to DOs and residencies in the more desired locations like NYC, Boston, San Fran. That being said most other well regarded Midwest and southern university programs gladly fill with DOs and you don't have to get trained at UCSF, MGH, McLane or Columbia to have a great career. I went in also wanting psych from the start. I looked at several other options including anesthesia and hemeonc but finally realized that psych is really where my passion is.

Also as pay goes, with the move towards single payer, never underestimate how much better private cash pay in psych is than what Medicare and Medicaid will pay for everyone in every other specialty in the future.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using SDN Mobile

 

[DD214_DOC]

No one really wants to do psych.

That is because most people are dumb. Psych now makes as much if not more than primary care with fewer hours overall, which means they make MORE per work-hour.

And the DO/Psych thing is not an issue. Just don't expect to do OMM on your patients. People are already paranoid enough about us having sex with all of our patients.

 

[dudeliness]

Sounds like she just didn't want to be bothered. I shadowed for almost 100 hours with a gynecologist. The vast majority of the patients agreed to allow me in the exam room.

Hmm, maybe I should find a OB/GYN to shadow...

 

[qwerty2012]

Like many said, DO is well represented in that field since it isn't super competitive like some surgical subspecialties.

I give psychiatrists a lot of credits since in no medical fields can you treat some diseases that aren't physically visible.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

That is because most people are dumb. Psych now makes as much if not more than primary care with fewer hours overall, which means they make MORE per work-hour.

And the DO/Psych thing is not an issue. Just don't expect to do OMM on your patients. People are already paranoid enough about us having sex with all of our patients.

Psych is the dentistry of medicine.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Like many said, DO is well represented in that field since it isn't super competitive like some surgical subspecialties.

I give psychiatrists a lot of credits since in no medical fields can you treat some diseases that aren't physically visible.

Most psychiatric disorders are pretty physically visible lol. You just can't biopsy them and doing FMRI's to deduce brain mass loss which explains depression isn't really cost-effective.

 

[SixStringPsych]

If nothing else, I'd like to go into Psych so I can then have the authority to write books and publish articles to show the public that psych is not bull****. There's so much stigma but I feel like psychiatrists these days don't try to dispel rumors and break the misconceptions, they just try to make money by seeing as many patients as possible and prescribing as much as possible, which just perpetuates the stereotype.

 

[psychgirrrl]

Psych is the dentistry of medicine.

Could you explain what you mean? I've never heard anyone say that before. Do you mean that psychs work less hours and make a **** ton of $$$$$?

Did anyone ever shadow a psychiatrist? I tried but was told I could not sit in the room because of high profile clients who come in to talk about their weirdness. People were embarrassed to talk about their ingrown nails in front of me while shadowing a family doc imagine talking about some weird habit or tendency.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Could you explain what you mean? I've never heard anyone say that before. Do you mean that psychs work less hours and make a **** ton of $$$$$?

Did anyone ever shadow a psychiatrist? I tried but was told I could not sit in the room because of high profile clients who come in to talk about their weirdness. People were embarrassed to talk about their ingrown nails in front of me while shadowing a family doc imagine talking about some weird habit or tendency.

Both have similar pay per hours, that is likely higher than most other specialties.

 

[psychgirrrl]

Both have similar pay per hours, that is likely higher than most other specialties.

That is pretty cool. I always hear people bashing Psychiatry and always just assume I must be weird for thinking it's awesome.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

That is pretty cool. I always hear people bashing Psychiatry and always just assume I must be weird for thinking it's awesome.

Because the population of people who find psychiatry interesting usually are deviant from the mean population stats or even the general averages for doctors.

 

[psychgirrrl]

Because the population of people who find psychiatry interesting usually are deviant from the mean population stats or even the general averages for doctors.

Where did you read that? I believe you, but I would enjoying reading that article.