Go To The Cheaper School - A Cost Analysis

[sgv]

I have a hard time believing this is true, because though you'll still be a dentist, some schools undoubtedly prepare you better than others. Is it to the point that you'd feel comfortable opening up a practice straight out of school? Probably not. But it could be a difference of feeling like you're ready to associate our feeling like you need to do a GPR, and that's not insignificant. Not saying this necessarily justifies a huge cost difference, but it seems overly simplistic to say every school gives you the same education and prepares you just as well for every avenue of dentistry. If this was the case, every school would have identical board pass rates.

All schools teach you the minimum for you to graduate, take CE's, and teach yourself beyond basic dentistry. None of these schools benefit from spending more on curriculum to teach you cosmetic procedures. Your state isn't paying for your education for you to treat rich people who are the only ones who can afford elective treatment. They're expecting you to provide basic dentistry that benefits all people. Private schools are cash strapped already to compete with state school's tuition. They don't benefit from teaching you this extra stuff and there's not enough time. Clinical schools can help you get to a certain comfortability faster but not by much since your learning pace is slow in dental school. After dental school, the learning curve is high and you can learn a whole lot more in fours years after dental school than your four years in dental school. This is why it doesn't really matter what dental school you go to. Y'all can take CEs. It's better to spend your money from going to cheap school to pay for CE.

It's like an RPG game. Spend 1,000 rubies on 20 dexterity and leather armor now or spend that same 1,000 rubies on 80 dexterity and adamantium armor later...

Ps: everything i just said could be BS since im only a dental student...

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[LFA20]

I have certainly considered applying for HPSP, but I just don't know how I feel about that 3-4 year commitment...and having no say in where I end up.

it is actually more than 3-4 year commitment. You also need to be in reserve for another few years.

You can't win it all. Got to sacrifice something... whether it's money, happiness, and sometimes safety.

 

[NDPitch]

I have a hard time believing this is true, because though you'll still be a dentist, some schools undoubtedly prepare you better than others. Is it to the point that you'd feel comfortable opening up a practice straight out of school? Probably not. But it could be a difference of feeling like you're ready to associate our feeling like you need to do a GPR, and that's not insignificant. Not saying this necessarily justifies a huge cost difference, but it seems overly simplistic to say every school gives you the same education and prepares you just as well for every avenue of dentistry. If this was the case, every school would have identical board pass rates.

When comparing a state school that has cheaper tuition to the super expensive schools, the math always works out in favor of the cheaper school.

Let's roll with your scenario for a minute. Let's assume that a super expensive private school prepares you very well for practice. So much so, that you don't feel you need to do a GPR. You graduate and go right into the workforce, and start out at a typical associate's starting salary. But, you have 400k or more in debt.

Another student went to a cheaper state school that cost about 150 grand cheaper. They didn't feel as prepared, and did a 1 year GPR, where you make a resident's salary.

Fast forward a year, and the student that went to the expensive school has worked a full year in practice, but still has nearly 400k in debt (you're paying mostly interest at the start of your loans). The student that went to the cheaper school graduated with 250k in debt, got paid in residency, learned a lot of what they "didn't learn" at their state school, and is now hitting the job market having completed a GPR (which is actually desirable to a lot of employers).

Fast forward 5 years after graduation, and the school one went to at this point matters even less. Most agree that you learn the most about dentistry AFTER you graduate. Dental school gives you the basic bread and butter, and the piece of paper that allows you to legally work on people without killing them. So even if an expensive school prepares you a little better for the start of your career, does that really matter over the length of a 30+ year career in dentistry? I'd say no.

So who got the better deal here? To me the answer is clear. As for board passing rates, I would argue that it's more about the student and less about the school. Going to a better school doesn't mean you have a better chance of passing the boards, the student has to learn and absorb the material. Besides, no matter what school students go to, the majority of them end up purchasing a third party package of study materials that gets them the information they need to pass the boards and move on to the next phase.

I'll end with sharing this piece of an email conversation I had with a financial adviser who writes for DentalTown. These are his thoughts on the matter. Take it for what it's worth. But, like the title of this thread suggests, I strongly urge all of you to go to the cheapest school you can get into.

"I'm firm after reviewing all evidence for the past six years that it makes no sense to attend a private professional school. The financial burden has become intolerable. When applying to dental school back in the mid-70s, I had a choice between USC and UCLA. The tuition and fees were low compared to today, yet even back then the typical UCLA grad could easily pay off loans in 2-5 years, with little downside to lifestyle, while USC grads all paid hurtful loans for up to 8-10 years. The numbers we paid back then would make you laugh, but a net income of $50K was considered incredible."

 

[Ferneezy]

^^^ if i could like that post three times i would

 

[Mattthias]

Super useful post. I'm definitely going to my state school.

 

[Aal]

. Is happiness, new technology, or better city to live in really worth an extra 200K? You realize that is the price of a house right? The fact is, you might be happier for 4 years of dental school, but you will be unhappy paying more for the next 20 years of your life.

.

Great topic, but I have to disagree with that part. You are disregarding an important factor, your state of mind is crucial for your performance in a demanding environment such as Dental School, and this is coming from someone with experience in living in "not so great" places.

 

[UCSFx2017]

Great topic, but I have to disagree with that part. You are disregarding an important factor, your state of mind is crucial for your performance in a demanding environment such as Dental School, and this is coming from someone with experience in living in "not so great" places.

The insides of the library and lab look the same to me. Or do you plan on spending most of your time outside having a great time?

 

[sgv]

Great topic, but I have to disagree with that part. You are disregarding an important factor, your state of mind is crucial for your performance in a demanding environment such as Dental School, and this is coming from someone with experience in living in "not so great" places.

Select the true statement:

A) Dental school teaches you all the clinical skills you need to become a dentist who is capable of most of the procedures in all of dentistry. Therefore, education stops after dental school.

B) You should choose a dental school like you would choose a vacation resort because dental students have so much free time and money.

C) A $300,000 school is 3x better than a $100,000 school because you get what you pay for.

D) All of the above

E) None of the above

 

[LFA20]

Select the true statement:

A) Dental school teaches you all the clinical skills you need to become a dentist who is capable of most of the procedures in all of dentistry. Therefore, education stops after dental school.

B) You should choose a dental school like you would choose a vacation resort because dental students have so much free time and money.

C) A $300,000 school is 3x better than a $100,000 school because you get what you pay for.

D) All of the above

E) None of the above

my answer is D...

 

[Ferneezy]

that looks like one of those k type questions.

if d school has those i'm screwed

 

[sgv]

my answer is D...

No it's J. It's okay though, a bunch of predents answered wrong so the curve is somehow in your favor.

 

[Aal]

Select the true statement:

A) Dental school teaches you all the clinical skills you need to become a dentist who is capable of most of the procedures in all of dentistry. Therefore, education stops after dental school.

B) You should choose a dental school like you would choose a vacation resort because dental students have so much free time and money.

C) A $300,000 school is 3x better than a $100,000 school because you get what you pay for.

D) All of the above

E) None of the above

F) The one that I'm accepted at.

 

[teriyaki]

E

 

[park1234]

I think if someone believe he/she can handle 400k, then tuition really doesnt matter. As long as they are able to earn just enough money for repayments, they will have 4 happier years of dental school PLUS 20 years after that. I know loan amount should be one of those factors deciding which schools to attend, but not the absolute factor.

 

[y3nd0]

I think if someone believe he/she can handle 400k, then tuition really doesnt matter. As long as they are able to earn just enough money for repayments, they will have 4 happier years of dental school PLUS 20 years after that. I know loan amount should be one of those factors deciding which schools to attend, but not the absolute factor.

I think NDPitch is 100% correct. I think that a school's cost should be damn near the absolute deciding factor if you're choosing between schools. I said before that 400K IS manageable since people are already managing the debt. But I think the problem for some lies in that some people don't know what 400K really is (just like how it's easy for us to say and use Avogadro's number. We don't know how massive it is until we get some perspective). I will say, though, that I'm sure you will have a hard time finding someone will will happy with $3,000+ pulled out from their pay check every month for more than half of their working life.

I honestly think that people who choose a school that is over 100K more expensive than an alternate have never been in the real world or just don't have enough sense to realize that 100K is not just three numbers and a letter.

 

[park1234]

I know that with 400k will turn into lil over 450 k while in dental school and people will probably need to pay 3500 ish for 20 years. I know it will be hard to pay that much when you are earning 120 k as a starting salary. But within few years, your salary will go up, or you might open your own practice. With 200-300 k earnings... 3500 repayment will not be a problem.

Many people have different opinions but im just a person who believes 'go whereever that makes you happy' loll

 

[UCSFx2017]

I know that with 400k will turn into lil over 450 k while in dental school and people will probably need to pay 3500 ish for 20 years. I know it will be hard to pay that much when you are earning 120 k as a starting salary. But within few years, your salary will go up, or you might open your own practice. With 200-300 k earnings... 3500 repayment will not be a problem.

Many people have different opinions but im just a person who believes 'go whereever that makes you happy' loll

This is not a happy go lucky decision that you want to make with little thought. How do you plan on getting to the point where you can qualify for a loan, then pay each month for both your student and practice loan, and have left over for living expenses or a decent lifestyle?

In reference to this Excel sheet that I made a while back: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...f-attendance-114k.889212/page-2#post-14250652 ,

If you borrow around $363,000 at 6.8-7.9% interest rate and plan to pay this off in 10-years, you'll pay a total of $513,000 at a monthly rate of $4,200. Every year you would pay $52,800. The average salaried dentist makes about $120,000 per year with newly graduates making much less. If you were single and a Virginia resident, $26,000 of that $120,000 would go to taxes. $52,800 (student loan repayment per year) + $26,000 (taxes) = $78,800. Your disposable income is now $41,200.

Say you wanted to apply for a loan and buy a practice. Most banks require you to have a 30% monthly debt-to-income ratio. Unless you have a collateral account, collateral insurance, or a loan schedule longer than 10-years, you're probably not going to qualify for a loan at a decent interest rate. There's going to be three points in your life where you'll be borrowing hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of loans. Dental school, practice, and house. The three things that you're borrowing for are very good things. But which ones will provide you the longest duration of happiness? Which one has the worst interest rate? Which one(s) do you, your spouse, and your family want to spend more money on? Be prepared for a life of debt and this decision really will affect you for the rest of your life.

 

[gn4]

This is not a happy go lucky decision that you want to make with little thought. How do you plan on getting to the point where you can qualify for a loan, then pay each month for both your student and practice loan, and have left over for living expenses or a decent lifestyle?

In reference to this Excel sheet that I made a while back: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...f-attendance-114k.889212/page-2#post-14250652 ,

If you borrow around $363,000 at 6.8-7.9% interest rate and plan to pay this off in 10-years, you'll pay a total of $513,000 at a monthly rate of $4,200. Every year you would pay $52,800. The average salaried dentist makes about $120,000 per year with newly graduates making much less. If you were single and a Virginia resident, $26,000 of that $120,000 would go to taxes. $52,800 (student loan repayment per year) + $26,000 (taxes) = $78,800. Your disposable income is now $41,200.

Say you wanted to apply for a loan and buy a practice. Most banks require you to have a 30% monthly debt-to-income ratio. Unless you have a collateral account, collateral insurance, or a loan schedule longer than 10-years, you're probably not going to qualify for a loan at a decent interest rate. There's going to be three points in your life where you'll be borrowing hundreds of thousands dollars worth of loans. Dental school, practice, and house. The three things that you're borrowing for are very good things. But which ones will provide you the longest duration of happiness? Practice and house. Which one has the worst interest rate? Dental school. Which one(s) do you, your spouse, and your family want to spend more money on? Be prepared for a life of debt and this decision really will affect you for the rest of your life.

all this makes sense, but why do we assume that the significant other is not working as well? I think it's manageable for people who want to do it. People don't need to live on a "dentist lifestyle" as well. I'm all about the cheap school, but I can't belittle people wanting to be happy those 4 years.

 

[UCSFx2017]

all this makes sense, but why do we assume that the significant other is not working as well?

Because we're assuming this is me. *forever alone*

Edit: I'm also underestimating the student loan borrowed by only calculating tuition and fees without factoring in tuition increases. I'm overestimating a newly graduate's salary. Student loan rates are also overestimated (6.8-7.9% is now down to around 5.6-6.8%)

 

[y3nd0]

Many people have different opinions but im just a person who believes 'go whereever that makes you happy' loll

Well, I guess that's where we're different. Yes, happiness is very important, especially in a stressful environment like dental school, but I guess I'd sacrifice 4 years of my life at a place where I'd be semi-happy (you're going to have good times no matter where you go) over a place where I'd be very happy to have a longer period of relief and less stress later. Guess I'm also an easy going person who can call any place home.

 

[Syntav]

bump for the class of 2020

 

[DodobirdFiance]

Super informative!

 

[Cello]

On the taxes, it's important to note that you pay the marginal amount only as you exceed each bracket (which works to your advantage).

So, your first $9,225 is taxed @ 10% federal
From $9225 -> $37,450 is taxed @ 15% federal
$37,450 -> $90,750 is taxed @ 25% federal
From $90,750 -> to $120,000 would then be taxed at 28%.

So you would really be paying: ($9,225 x 10%) + ($28,225 x 15%) + ($53,300 x 25%) + ($29,250 x 28%) = $26,671.25

Also, always consider state income tax, sales tax, property tax, etc.

You may also wish to consider two similar threads I created a while back:

You will be financially secure:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/you-will-be-financially-secure.1049002/

The financial options thread (includes some spreadsheets for your own calculations):
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/the-financial-options-thread.1050331/

 

[hajin]

I think military dentistry and the HPSP is the way to go if you want to have the option to one day...
- work abroad
- go into research / academics
- do public health work
- <gasp> do something different

All of these things would be fairly easy to pull off with no debt and very difficult to do with huge debt loads.

Now can you make more money in private practice in the long term by building your practice instead of giving up 4 years to the man? I don't want to go into that. That discussion has been had a million times on sdn. But the other thing to consider is your freedom of choice. With a huge school loan you're locked in for a lot more than 4 years. If you want to have your own practice one day great. But if that is NOT your one and only dream I would strongly consider not going into half a million in debt.

 

[Weakfart]

On the taxes, it's important to note that you pay the marginal amount only as you exceed each bracket (which works to your advantage).

So, your first $9,225 is taxed @ 10% federal
From $9225 -> $37,450 is taxed @ 15% federal
$37,450 -> $90,750 is taxed @ 25% federal
From $90,750 -> to $120,000 would then be taxed at 28%.

So you would really be paying: ($9,225 x 10%) + ($28,225 x 15%) + ($53,300 x 25%) + ($29,250 x 28%) = $26,671.25

Also, always consider state income tax, sales tax, property tax, etc.

You may also wish to consider two similar threads I created a while back:

You will be financially secure:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/you-will-be-financially-secure.1049002/

The financial options thread (includes some spreadsheets for your own calculations):
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/the-financial-options-thread.1050331/

Awesome Cello, thanks for sharing!

 

[CraigHack]

I think military dentistry and the HPSP is the way to go if you want to have the option to one day...
- work abroad
- go into research / academics
- do public health work
- <gasp> do something different

All of these things would be fairly easy to pull off with no debt and very difficult to do with huge debt loads.

Now can you make more money in private practice in the long term by building your practice instead of giving up 4 years to the man? I don't want to go into that. That discussion has been had a million times on sdn. But the other thing to consider is your freedom of choice. With a huge school loan you're locked in for a lot more than 4 years. If you want to have your own practice one day great. But if that is NOT your one and only dream I would strongly consider not going into half a million in debt.

"Freedom of choice" and "military" are phrases you won't normally find used together.

 

[hajin]

"Freedom of choice" and "military" are phrases you won't normally find used together.

Oh snap.

You're right, but common.. It's not freedom vs no freedom. Pick your poison. Contract yourself to the bank or contract yourself to the government. To me 4 years doesn't seem so bad compared to 10 to 30 years convincing yourself you're a free man... Yeah all kinds of free. Free to do anything you want EXCEPT anything that might cause your monthly income to temporarily dip.

A job in Singapore for a year (that pays a little less)? Sounds fun to me.
A part time teaching contract that pays a lot (but not really a lot if you owe a ton every month)? Sure.
A few years of further study (living on some savings)? Why not.

Again, these are all easy with zero debt. But when you have to make payments every month... Well, you're something, but I wouldn't call it "free."

 

[nonociceptors]

Oh snap.

You're right, but common.. It's not freedom vs no freedom. Pick your poison. Contract yourself to the bank or contract yourself to the government. To me 4 years doesn't seem so bad compared to 10 to 30 years convincing yourself you're a free man... Yeah all kinds of free. Free to do anything you want EXCEPT anything that might cause your monthly income to temporarily dip.

A job in Singapore for a year (that pays a little less)? Sounds fun to me.
A part time teaching contract that pays a lot (but not really a lot if you owe a ton every month)? Sure.
A few years of further study (living on some savings)? Why not.

Again, these are all easy with zero debt. But when you have to make payments every month... Well, you're something, but I wouldn't call it "free."

Not agreeing or disagreeing, but what's up with the side jobs you're talking about lol. A job in Singapore for a year? Ok but eventually you'll come back home and you'll be starting from scratch if having a private practice back home is your goal. Not to mention once you're out of school and finished serving your 4 year commitment, you'll be, at best, pushing 30. It might not be the case for you but I'd say most people will be settling down with families/partners around that time. Idk, just seemed funny to me

 

[hajin]

if having a private practice back home is your goal.

That is exactly my point. Huge debt is ONLY compatible with this goal and with huge debt you will have no opportunity to change your mind later.

If you, as pre-dental student, are 100% positive that starting a practice is what you want, then sure, taking loans is the way to go. But... if you have that kind of confidence about about not only what you want now but what you will want 10+ years down the road... Well, I'm jealous. Your crystal ball is way better than mine.

 

[CraigHack]

Oh snap.

You're right, but common.. It's not freedom vs no freedom. Pick your poison. Contract yourself to the bank or contract yourself to the government. To me 4 years doesn't seem so bad compared to 10 to 30 years convincing yourself you're a free man... Yeah all kinds of free. Free to do anything you want EXCEPT anything that might cause your monthly income to temporarily dip.

A job in Singapore for a year (that pays a little less)? Sounds fun to me.
A part time teaching contract that pays a lot (but not really a lot if you owe a ton every month)? Sure.
A few years of further study (living on some savings)? Why not.

Again, these are all easy with zero debt. But when you have to make payments every month... Well, you're something, but I wouldn't call it "free."

Hey dude (or dudette), I was just poking fun - tone doesn't convey well via text. I agree with the sentiment that student debt is its own kind of prison, and I'm not actually against the whole military dentistry thing. I just like to be the voice of caution when people throw out this idea because a lot of the individuals who are considering this route don't exactly have a clear idea of what military service entails.

 

[GoldenDomer11]

Before applying this cycle, I made an excel sheet with all of the schools and the total cost I would spend over 4 years based on ADEA Guide numbers and what the school's themselves project.

Maybe its just Pennsylvania, but I would not save much AT ALL by attending one of my state schools than a private school (For example: at present I will be attending LECOM next year).

Pitt ~321K
Temple ~326K
LECOM ~344K
Tufts ~403K

I'm not sure about other states, but is it really that much (in the long run) cheaper to attend state schools? It seems like their tuitions are getting to be just as high as private schools.

 

[hellofuturedentists]

Before applying this cycle, I made an excel sheet with all of the schools and the total cost I would spend over 4 years based on ADEA Guide numbers and what the school's themselves project.

Maybe its just Pennsylvania, but I would not save much AT ALL by attending one of my state schools than a private school (For example: at present I will be attending LECOM next year).

Pitt ~321K
Temple ~326K
LECOM ~344K
Tufts ~403K

I'm not sure about other states, but is it really that much (in the long run) cheaper to attend state schools? It seems like their tuitions are getting to be just as high as private schools.

Lol the state of Pennsylvania has some of the highest tuition for undergrad, too. Other state schools are much, much cheaper for in-state.

 

[pgex2t]

TIL don't have kids and have cup noodle for the rest of my life

 

[A Pre-dent]

,

 

[free99]

I would imagine that all of these numbers are very different than the ones used in Doc Holliday's original post three years ago. Isn't that 7.9% interest rate a bit high? Granted, I am not at all financially savvy yet (even though I have to be by December 31st).

The most recent interest rates were 5.8% for direct unsubsidized, and 6.8% for gradPlus loans, plus origination fees about about 5% (I don't recall the exact percentage). It's anyone guess how those interest rates may change - but it's certainly a possibility they'll rise back to where they were a few years ago for the 2016-2017 year. Don't let the lower interest rates deceive you though, the interest is still very significant when you're talking about such a huge sum of money. If at all possible, it's in your best interest to pay off the interest within 6 months of graduating before it capitalizes and becomes part of the principle.

 

[Incis0r]

Bump.

Great thread. Thanks for the bump.

 

[321931]

This is a great realistic thread. I imagine that all corporates/dsos salivate at all these new grads coming into the market with limited opportunities. My ideal practice would be to buy up smaller practices have multiple locations and utilize new grads for $$$. It really is a business man"s dream. Hopefully I can figure this out.
These are simply my opinions.

 

[hellofuturedentists]

Good stuff! Someone should bump this come December lol.
Unfortunately, I don't think this will change many people's minds, though. People with their heart set on expensive schools won't listen to this. The ones who only get into $400k+ schools, I can understand more why they go. But those who choose somewhere extremely expensive over somewhere much cheaper that's just as good, I will not understand. But, I guess it's not my debt, so

 

[GoldenDomer11]

It sucks for some us no matter what. The cheapest school I could have gone to for instate (Pitt) was still looking like 320K by the end of 4 years. I figured, I'm in it for the long haul regardless, so I chose the school where I thought I'd have the most opportunities.


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