Good/Bad Vet-Shadowing Experiences

[birdsofparadise]

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Okay, I recently started job-shadowing at a vet clinic and I have to say, I really dislike the clinic's management. My experience there wasn't particularly good either. I had no problem cleaning the kennels and I even got to witness spay/neutering and dental surgeries (it was awesome!) However, my experience on watching the surgeries only happened when the vet's wife wasn't around. She happened to be the receptionist, and boy, she either didn't like me or had something against people who shadowed there. I'm pretty sure you get permission from the vet to watch surgeries, rather than the receptionist...which wasn't the case when the vet's wife/receptionist ushered me away to do chores when I had permission to watch the surgery.

I started to question the management when I found that vet's wife meandering around in the surgery room and once assisted him with suturing a wound. I don't know if that's appropriate or not for a non-tech to do such things. At times, I feel like I should have shadowed for a different clinic but it's the only one where I live that allows students to shadow (I live farther from the city). I'm hoping that once I start university, I'll find another vet clinic to shadow, volunteer or work

Does anyone else have particularly interesting or bad experiences with shadowing at their clinics?

 

[Trematode]

I saw some questionable things when volunteering at a certain clinic: vets using same surgery packs on different animals, techs doing cat neuters, vets sticking cats in boxes and gassing them instead of sedating them properly first and vets not changing gloves between surgeries. I had tried other clinics in my area and had no luck. Lucky for me, nobody resented me being there.

Yes, I saw some things that really bothered me. If I had quit, 200 of my ~400 vet hours would not exist. Since experience counts for a good chunk of my application (and this would be more important to you since you are likely in the states), it was not worth it for me to quit.

 

[dyachei]

I saw some questionable things when volunteering at a certain clinic: vets using same surgery packs on different animals, techs doing cat neuters, vets sticking cats in boxes and gassing them instead of sedating them properly first and vets not changing gloves between surgeries. I had tried other clinics in my area and had no luck. Lucky for me, nobody resented me being there.

Yes, I saw some things that really bothered me. If I had quit, 200 of my ~400 vet hours would not exist. Since experience counts for a good chunk of my application (and this would be more important to you since you are likely in the states), it was not worth it for me to quit.

Just wanted to point out that these first two are commonly accepted at a lot of low-cost and spay/neuter clinics to help cut costs. Usually, the instruments that aren't used in the first surgery can be used in the next. And it's ok for techs to do cat neuters. Just like many farmers can castrate their own bulls. I wouldn't call those questionable. Just FYI

 

[SnowyRox]

I think it's good that you're analyzing what you're seeing. Especially at low-cost clinics, everything runs differently and you may not agree with everything you see. If you learn how to ask politely, you might be able to get some explanations. i.e. At free spay/neuter clinics the vet sometimes will just double glove instead of re-scrubbing and re-gloving after every cat. Research done on the rate of infection hasn't shown any significant difference between the two practices and so it's considered standard practice there.

It's nice to watch a vet following the gold-standard of practice, but it can be tough to find shadowing opportunities there.

 

[birdsofparadise]

I think it's good that you're analyzing what you're seeing. Especially at low-cost clinics, everything runs differently and you may not agree with everything you see. If you learn how to ask politely, you might be able to get some explanations. i.e. At free spay/neuter clinics the vet sometimes will just double glove instead of re-scrubbing and re-gloving after every cat. Research done on the rate of infection hasn't shown any significant difference between the two practices and so it's considered standard practice there.

It's nice to watch a vet following the gold-standard of practice, but it can be tough to find shadowing opportunities there.

That's a good point. I knew coming into the clinic that it was probably low cost but I guess I wasn't fully prepared for low cost clinics procedures and management. I did ask the vet questions about anesthesia and suturing during surgeries. But I suppose the more questions you ask, the better! 🙂

I hadn't asked the vet as to why his wife was getting involved in surgeries when she's not even certified to do them 😛

 

[skittles12]

I worked at a low cost spay/neuter clinic and they used a different pack for each spay and dog neuter. For cat neuters, they would use one pack for about 3-4 surgeries (using the unused instruments on the next surgery). I've also worked at a rural vet clinic that uses more than one pack for spays. I have had my best experiences at that clinic. 🙂

I haven't seen anything bad/questionable as far as actual veterinary things go, but I have worked at two places that were pretty bad for the employees. If a place has changed more than half of its employees in the past year, it's probably not a good sign. The first place had a very overbearing manager who thought she knew better than the vets and techs. Working around her was stressful, but everyone else was nice so it wasn't always terrible. The second place made me utterly miserable and seriously made me question my choice of vet med. Rudeness, no respect for techs/volunteers/interns, unrealistic expectations, etc. And I'm not the only one to have complained about the place either...

 

[Trematode]

Just wanted to point out that these first two are commonly accepted at a lot of low-cost and spay/neuter clinics to help cut costs. Usually, the instruments that aren't used in the first surgery can be used in the next. And it's ok for techs to do cat neuters. Just like many farmers can castrate their own bulls. I wouldn't call those questionable. Just FYI

This was not a low-cost spay/neuter clinic. It was a large, mixed practice that charged the highest prices in the area.

Also, I was reading old threads on this and was under the impression that techs doing any kind of surgery was not legal.

I have volunteered in a clinic that also cut costs, but not doing it in a way that it puts the animals at even a small risk of something bad happening.

Seeing vets do things to cut costs in a clinic like this did make me uncomfortable at the time.

 

[dyachei]

This was not a low-cost spay/neuter clinic. It was a large, mixed practice that charged the highest prices in the area.

Also, I was reading old threads on this and was under the impression that techs doing any kind of surgery was not legal.

I have volunteered in a clinic that also cut costs, but not doing it in a way that it puts the animals at even a small risk of something bad happening.

they may not be legal in Canada, but vet techs are allowed to do castrations on cats here. It probably varies from state to state here, but every state I lived in, it was legal.

 

[Trematode]

they may not be legal in Canada, but vet techs are allowed to do castrations on cats here. It probably varies from state to state here, but every state I lived in, it was legal.

I wish I could find the old thread I was reading several weeks ago. A Canadian mentioned that techs do cat neuters and the entire thread went crazy saying "That's unsafe and illegal!" I was under the impression that it was illegal because of that. It was a fairly old thread... I do not know if I can find it again.

 

[kanderson615]

I've never had a bad experience as a shadow, but my first job as a kennel tech was awful. Not because I mind regular kennel chores like walking the dogs or cleaning up or anything, but my fellow techs were terrible. They were all old ladies and were lazy as hell! They basically left all the hard jobs to me because I was young. On many occasions, I would have to walk every dog that was boarding in the freezing cold weather while they smoked on the back porch and chatted while watching me work. And when it came time to split up all the chores amongst ourselves (we were redoing the way we did work) guess who ended up with all the worst and most difficult jobs? The only thing that made that job worth it was the doctors were nice and often let me watch surgeries - I saw some pretty cool ones while working there.

 

[kanderson615]

Oh and I forgot to mention that they all gossiped and hated each other and got in old lady cat fights all the time. It was no bueno.

 

[dyachei]

I wish I could find the old thread I was reading several weeks ago. A Canadian mentioned that techs do cat neuters and the entire thread went crazy saying "That's unsafe and illegal!" I was under the impression that it was illegal because of that. It was a fairly old thread... I do not know if I can find it again.

dog neuters, yes. cat neuters, no.

Cat neuters are a 5 minute procedure that do not enter the abdomen and can be done under heavy sedation.

 

[Trematode]

Found it.

No, its not legal for techs to do ANY surgery in Canada whatsoever - not cat neuters (although BC may be the only province that differs in this), and definitely not cat spays.

I think its outrageous that techs are performing surgery.

HIGHLY illegal. At least in the US. I would think it's illegal in Canada, too. 😡

I wonder if the owners of these cats know that they're being operated on by technicians...is Canada really that different??!!!! Pardon me, but I'm disturbed. (Not meaning to take away the joy of your shadowing experience!)

 

[Trematode]

After reading stuff like that is sporadic places, I was under the impression that what I saw wasn't legal. 🙄 Oh well. I only thought that way for a month.
You know I am really bored when I start pulling up threads from 2008ish.

 

[CalliopeDVM]

Cat neuters are a 5 minute procedure that do not enter the abdomen and can be done under heavy sedation.

Don't think that means that a cat neuter isn't a surgery! It is a surgical procedure, albeit a quick one. A hip replacement on a person might be done under heavy sedation and doesn't enter the abdomen, but don't tell that orthopedic surgeon that he/she isn't doing surgery!

Yes, whether or not it's legal will be defined in each jurisdiction's veterinary practice act.

Bad experiences can be as valuable as good ones for teaching purposes, as long as you look at things critically (and they don't go on forever).

 

[dyachei]

Don't think that means that a cat neuter isn't a surgery! It is a surgical procedure, albeit a quick one. A hip replacement on a person might be done under heavy sedation and doesn't enter the abdomen, but don't tell that orthopedic surgeon that he/she isn't doing surgery!

Yes, whether or not it's legal will be defined in each jurisdiction's veterinary practice act.

Bad experiences can be as valuable as good ones for teaching purposes, as long as you look at things critically (and they don't go on forever).

I just meant that safety wise, its a procedure with a low rate of complications. I understand that it is a surgery and treat it as such. It's definitely a major step up from tying a cat in a boot to perform it on the farm. For TNR, I really have no problem with technicians (trained) performing this procedure.

And I definitely agree with your last point.

 

[Trematode]

In this clinic, the techs did de-claws and tail-docking.
Do the laws for those differ by area?

 

[uoguelph]

I have volunteered at 5 clinics, one of them was a high spay/neuter clinic but I haven't seen anything like technicians preforming castrations. It doesn't look like it's a complicated procedure I don't see why they couldn't do it but I think this is more common in American clinics. Just giving you a heads up, if you do your undergraduate degree at a university that has a veterinary school the competition is fierce to get a spot in a clinic. Apply early! Vet schools also offer volunteer opportunities at their teaching hospitals.

 

[sunshinevet]

I saw some questionable things when volunteering at a certain clinic: vets using same surgery packs on different animals, techs doing cat neuters, vets sticking cats in boxes and gassing them instead of sedating them properly first

I'm surprised no one has commented on this one - its not a regular practice here, but definately used for clinics dealing with very fractious cats who don't have crush cages. Of course you try with alfaxan/midazolam/ketamine or something else "intra-kitty" first, but sometimes you just have to do what you've gotta do. Absolutely its not ideal and shouldnt be first line, but sometimes you just can't handle them til their asleep.

Found it.

by the sound of those two posts you quoted, it sounded like they were talking about cat speys more than castrations? Cat castrations are legal for nurses to do here too, its a simple procedure and if you have a good well trained nurse there shouldn't be a problem.

Here in Aus we have to do extra mural studies as part of the vet course - 14 weeks in clinics before we graduate (along with our year of rotations). I've seen some stuff that genuinely makes my head hurt, from supposedly "good" vets - all you can do it squirrel the information away for what not to do when you graduate.
On the other hand, if you are relatively new to shadowing and the veterinary industry, I would try to go in with a very open mind. You might see some stuff that you THINK is shocking and bad that is actually fine, and just can't accurately gauge the situation due to lack of experience. For example, I don't think his wife helping him suturing a wound is an issue personally - I don't feel its neglegent in any way, it would be different if she was actually just doing it herself. Also, I would be very cautious in criticising non-certified people assisting in surgery or scrubbing in - many many many prevets LOVE getting the chance to assist in surgery - yourself included would probably jump at the chance and so you should - but remember, you are also not certified 😉 Chances are you won't exactly do much, just like the wife probably won't do much, but it sounds like a small clinic and when you need another pair of hands, you need another pair of hands...

Just some food for thought 🙂

 

[birdsofparadise]

On the other hand, if you are relatively new to shadowing and the veterinary industry, I would try to go in with a very open mind. You might see some stuff that you THINK is shocking and bad that is actually fine, and just can't accurately gauge the situation due to lack of experience. For example, I don't think his wife helping him suturing a wound is an issue personally - I don't feel its neglegent in any way, it would be different if she was actually just doing it herself. Also, I would be very cautious in criticising non-certified people assisting in surgery or scrubbing in - many many many prevets LOVE getting the chance to assist in surgery - yourself included would probably jump at the chance and so you should - but remember, you are also not certified 😉 Chances are you won't exactly do much, just like the wife probably won't do much, but it sounds like a small clinic and when you need another pair of hands, you need another pair of hands...

Just some food for thought 🙂

Aha, I haven't thought about the possibility of pre-vets giving a hand! 😉 I have around 30+ hours so far from the clinic (still in progress!) but so far, I haven't put too much judgement on the clinic yet but it's just the tid-bits during surgeries that has been bothering me. I suppose I've been viewing things a bit more negatively about the clinic because of the wife; she's been quite rude since the very start of my shadowing and quite curt with the clients too. I was under the impression that most pre-vets or students who shadow don't usually get the opportunity to be involved in surgeries. It's pretty much what I've been doing the whole time, just observing a cat being spayed or neutered etc.

 

[ViaBea]

My experiences have been fairly good, but I have noticed a difference in how different practices handle surgeries. For example, at a small animal practice that I go to, once the animal is asleep, the doctor does the surgery with very little assistance or record keeping. However, when I saw a neuter at another clinic, the dog's heart rate was monitored and recorded the whole time by a tech, and they recorded various other notes about the surgery such as the start time and the end time. So, I'm not really sure what's normal with that.

I live in PA, and I've never seen a tech do a de-claw or tail dock (I'm not sure if its illegal though); however, I've definately seen techs do cat neuters.

 

[LetItSnow]

You might see some stuff that you THINK is shocking and bad that is actually fine, and just can't accurately gauge the situation due to lack of experience.

Yeah. Sometimes there's a lot of 'disdain' here about things, and all I can do is sit back and think "eh... I can see where maybe that's not so bad - not sure I know enough to tell." I think it's healthy for people like me to maintain some self-skepticism.

A few weeks ago a vet that I have a huge amount of respect for asked me to glove up and help her with a bleeding animal in surgery. I started to pull out a gown pack and she said "no, just glove and get in here now."

Think about how that would show up on SDN if someone wandered by and looked in the window. They'd see me grab gloves, throw them on without scrubbing, and then tromp into surgery and stick my hands palm deep into the hip of the dog. Then they'd come to SDN and post about the callous disregard for sterility procedures this clinic has.

But this is a surgeon that I know is ultra-cautious and is a stickler for sterility processes. Just that in this case she decided that the reward of a quick extra set of hands outweighed the infection risk.

*Shrug* Sometimes it's better to give people the benefit of the doubt and/or assume maybe they know more than you do.

 

[birdsofparadise]

I live in PA, and I've never seen a tech do a de-claw or tail dock (I'm not sure if its illegal though); however, I've definately seen techs do cat neuters.

The vet tech in my clinic does both..but then again I live in Canada. I heard that vet assistants do them as well.

 

[krist]

I'm surprised no one has commented on this one - its not a regular practice here, but definately used for clinics dealing with very fractious cats who don't have crush cages. Of course you try with alfaxan/midazolam/ketamine or something else "intra-kitty" first, but sometimes you just have to do what you've gotta do. Absolutely its not ideal and shouldnt be first line, but sometimes you just can't handle them til their asleep.

Agreed, not ideal, but the clinic I worked for did that when we couldn't touch the cats, and we didn't have crush cages either so it was our only option for fractious cats who couldn't be sedated properly.

 

[krist]

The vet tech in my clinic does both..but then again I live in Canada. I heard that vet assistants do them as well.

Some breeders and random people off the street do their own tail docks and DEW-claw removals (very different from de-clawing a cat!), I don't agree with it but I don't think it falls under the practice acts of most states, but I don't know for sure.

 

[wildcatj]

Agreed, not ideal, but the clinic I worked for did that when we couldn't touch the cats, and we didn't have crush cages either so it was our only option for fractious cats who couldn't be sedated properly.

So now is when I'm going to ask an apparently stupid question. At my clinic we box down the majority of our feline patients and I didn't realize that wasn't a preferable method. What are the major downsides to boxing cats down? What do you guys find is used more commonly?

 

[dyachei]

So now is when I'm going to ask an apparently stupid question. At my clinic we box down the majority of our feline patients and I didn't realize that wasn't a preferable method. What are the major downsides to boxing cats down? What do you guys find is used more commonly?

You stress out the cats majorly and you expose anesthetic to the air. There is an excitatory phase to gas anesthetics that you may have noticed in boxing down cats. You also aren't protecting their airways for anesthetic events when you box or mask down for longer periods of time.

What is ideal is to use a mesh carrier or crush box to restrain the cat and inject a sedative like DKT (depending on what you're trying to do). This is less stressful for the cat, the staff, and safer for everyone's health. If you still need to anesthetize, you can intubate and use gas anesthesia that way.

 

[dyachei]

In this clinic, the techs did de-claws and tail-docking.
Do the laws for those differ by area?

For your reading pleasure:
http://www.animallaw.info/articles/dduscroppingdocking.htm

 

[CalliopeDVM]

You stress out the cats majorly and you expose anesthetic to the air. There is an excitatory phase to gas anesthetics that you may have noticed in boxing down cats. You also aren't protecting their airways for anesthetic events when you box or mask down for longer periods of time.

They can also damage themselves during that excitatory period - banging their heads into the wall and breaking teeth, for instance. I've never had a case where I could manage them enough to get them in a tank, but not manage them enough to get an intramuscular injection in them (though I have had cases where I couldn't get close enough to do either).

 

[Trematode]

For your reading pleasure:
http://www.animallaw.info/articles/dduscroppingdocking.htm

Thanks.
Tail docs and ear crops are now illegal here (they were done when I was volunteering). When I was volunteering, techs were doing cat declaws (with nail clippers!!!) and tail docs (docks?)

 

[CalliopeDVM]

cat declaws (with nail clippers!!!)

Resco nail clippers (guillotine style) are pretty common for declaws - I know lots of vets who still do them that way.

 

[dyachei]

Resco nail clippers (guillotine style) are pretty common for declaws - I know lots of vets who still do them that way.

One of my boarded surgeon professors at school said she doesn't have any problem with guillotine method and it can actually be quicker (with less anesthetic risk) than the scalpel method. The caveat is that you need to make sure you got ALL of P3. It's harder to make that mistake with the scalpel method.

 

[abbercadaver]

I'm surprised no one has commented on this one - its not a regular practice here, but definately used for clinics dealing with very fractious cats who don't have crush cages. Of course you try with alfaxan/midazolam/ketamine or something else "intra-kitty" first, but sometimes you just have to do what you've gotta do. Absolutely its not ideal and shouldnt be first line, but sometimes you just can't handle them til their asleep.

We definitely box/gas kitties if they're too fractious. Not many, mind you, but we will resort to that when nothing else will work.

We have (well...had...Doc just fired the patient) this one particularly nasty cat named Casper. Owner is super nice, always brings us things (candy, homemade cookies/brownies, etc) when she leaves Casper for boarding...because she knows he's a beast.

You literally can't touch Casper (or properly clean out his cage/feed/water) for the first 2-3 days of his stay. You have to position the food bowl and litter box so you can quickly snatch them out of the cage as it opens, use a syringe to refill water through the bars and if you are not fast enough he will fly from his spot atop his cage (we put his carrier inside the cage and fling open the door) and attack with an intense ferocity...he's that bad. He's drawn blood on many an occasion.

Anyway, during his most recent stay, owner says he's got a lesion on his face that we need to check out 😱 We (several techs and both vets) catch him, tried to stick him through the cage, and then finally just bagged and gassed his carrier.