MD & DO Goro’s guide to success in medical school (2017 ed.)

[12glaucoma34]

One thing that is not discussed are the different educational / pedagogical paradigms that exist in America today as compared to several years ago. I think these new methods have hurt America greatly. European and Latin America pedadogical methods are vastly different than America's current mish mash (e.g. UFAP). Travel to Europe or Latin America and you get a different sense of maturity with university students.

Out of curiosity and not disagreement, could you expand your thoughts or provide some examples?

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[sliceofbread136]

One thing that is not discussed are the different educational / pedagogical paradigms that exist in America today as compared to several years ago. I think these new methods have hurt America greatly. European and Latin America pedadogical methods are vastly different than America's current mish mash (e.g. UFAP). Travel to Europe or Latin America and you get a different sense of maturity with university students.

Ya those Latin American physicians are so great..

 

[mehc012]

Ya those Latin American physicians are so great..

...and our US ones would do so well at running a trauma center - or even normal inpatient - without CT and MRI available (nevermind consistent supplies of gloves and suture).

 

[sliceofbread136]

...and our US ones would do so well at running a trauma center - or even normal inpatient - without CT and MRI available (nevermind consistent supplies of gloves and suture).

There are plenty of us global health physicians around who deal with that stuff all the time. Bottom line is if we compare the knowledge and training of the average us physician and Latin American physician there is simply no comparison. I would be legitimately scared if I had to go to a hospital in Guatemala or Mexico.

 

[mehc012]

There are plenty of us global health physicians around who deal with that stuff all the time. Bottom line is if we compare the knowledge and training of the average us physician and Latin American physician there is simply no comparison. I would be legitimately scared if I had to go to a hospital in Guatemala or Mexico.

I'll give you that, more pointing out that there are a lot more circumstances going into those differences than simply the curriculum style at the medical schools.

 

[cellsaver]

I'll give you that, more pointing out that there are a lot more circumstances going into those differences than simply the curriculum style at the medical schools.

The curriculum differences do not account for the different board scores according to one study

How much do differences in medical schools influence student performance? A longitudinal study employing hierarchical linear modeling.​

I think the culture is what is dictating the outcomes.

...and our US ones would do so well at running a trauma center - or even normal inpatient - without CT and MRI available (nevermind consistent supplies of gloves and suture).

Americans don't get it. The hospitals in this country are nothing short of luxury mansions. I have to force myself to ignore the electronic gadgets everywhere all in the interest of efficiency (?), productivity (?) and keeping up with the Jones', e.g. all in 1 purpose stand for BP and temperature ...on shiny wheels no less.

 

[Goro]

We have almost 200 ourselves, yet I've run into only a handful of FA evangelicals, thankfully. I think our curriculum really lends itself to textbooks, which is nice. If you straight memorize, you won't do well here.

I am SO stealing that!

 

[Dandine]

Been following the last two pages for a while and have a few n= 1 tidbits on my own (that I've also shared in other posts, so this isn't new info). This is also related to some of the stuff that had been mentioned on textbooks.

Study in the way you will be evaluated.
As mentioned earlier, one of the reasons why textbooks are unpopular is the risk of information overload and low-yield studying. But as students have proven, it's possible to balance both lecture and outside resources while still being able to do well in classes. My theory is much of it has to do with narrowing down what needs to be looked over first and then building on that info as you go. So whatever resources you use (textbook, video, FA, etc.), as long as it gets you to study your class material properly, that's more important in the long-term.

So here's the deal: if you already suspect there will be important problems or concepts that will be tested, don't neglect that material for other material that wasn't covered or emphasized in lecture. Will you have to look over those other things later for shelf exams or Step? Most likely yes. But if you don't take the time to learn or practice things that were necessary for your classes, you run the risk of stressing yourself out on exam week trying to figure that out or forgetting to study that stuff at all (and then missing exam questions that really weren't that hard). That, I think, is the basis of information overload: not having a strategy for what you're learning and assuming everything you take in is all going to stick at once. It's not. Make sure you know why you're learning what you're learning and have a plan for retaining and growing your knowledge base.

This also goes for study methods. If you have to take anatomy practicals, study as if you are taking them by identifying parts without names then checking yourself later. If you're given problems, do those problems and make sure you can do the work without looking at the answers. If you need to know certain drugs for certain conditions, make tables or matching games and quiz yourself. Make sure how you are studying correlates to the type of thinking you need to do on exams.

Take care of yourself.
It's easy to think you'll be able to manage your life accordingly, but schedules can get turned around and you may be spending more time on work than you thought you would. Plan in time to do fun things like hang out with friends or do something active. Don't lose sight of your hygiene, diet, and exercise regimens. Things will change, but that doesn't mean you have to drop everything you like to do. There's the saying "work hard, play hard." When you take time to relax, actually take that time to relax (it's easier said than done when you have a lot to do). Make sure you take care of yourself properly to make your work even stronger.

With that, so excited for you guys starting med school!

 

[iceman55]

Yes there will be stuff that isn't in FA, of course there will be. Have you taken the boards? If you haven't, I'll let you know that there is no resource (textbook or otherwise) that covers everything. The best bet is the review resources to perform well on the boards (and form a decent foundation for medicine), with googling and occasional (read very occasional, like 1 page every so often) out of a textbook. Play the odds.





The fact that you are using only your experiences with your students at your specific school when you formulate your advice is solipsism lol. I'm just returning it to you.


I also want to take this moment to let you know that observation is VERY different from reality. Medical students will say random **** to their professors and colleagues. Some will say they are reading review books thoroughly and still not doing well when in reality they facebook 80% of the time they are studying. Some students will say they read a bunch of textbooks when in reality they are lying to rile others up. The fact of the matter is that there are several students who are able to do well with mostly review resources (yes, some of them will lie and say they are only doing that, but again people like me only used review resources with the occasional paragraph read in a book). You have to go through the process of medical school to really understand that textbook reading is super low yield unless you specifically choose a couple pages here or there to read on rare occasion; again, you may have but I'm not going through your post history to find out your credentials.

Dude, i think you are wrong. There is a reason why people say the preparation for boards is to work hard throughout the year.

I don't know where you are in your education but I've taken both step 1 and step 2. What I can say for sure is that the AOA students at my school , the ones with 260s on both steps did not get there by relying mainly on review material. They studied consistently throughout ms1-ms3 using TEXTBOOKS and lecture notes. Lecture notes mainly in ms1 and textbooks mainly ms2 and ms3 along with questions. Yes , the 260-270 scorers at my school read BIG Robbins. I do agree that its not for everybody but if one can focus and force themselves to read those books they will do well.

Again, for third year some manage do well by just doing Uworld questions for each rotation. However, one can really excel by picking a good subject specific textbook along with going thru questions for each rotation. A lot these folks did not even finish Uworld during dedicated and still managed to score above 260 on both steps because they consistently studied throughout the year.

Oh and i don't know if you've taken step 2 yet but based off my exam, 30-40 % of the Uworld qbank did not even show up in the real thing. However, i had covered a good majority of that material while reading and studying for each shelf exam which paid off. And from what i recall the same was true for step 1, i had to rely a lot on lecture material.

However, there are many ways to skin a cat and some get by with mainly review material. However from my experiences that seems to be the minority.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[sliceofbread136]

Dude, i think you are wrong. There is a reason why people say the preparation for boards is to work hard throughout the year.

I don't know where you are in your education but I've taken both step 1 and step 2. What I can say for sure is that the AOA students at my school , the ones with 260s on both steps did not get there by relying mainly on review material. They studied consistently throughout ms1-ms3 using TEXTBOOKS and lecture notes. Lecture notes mainly in ms1 and textbooks mainly ms2 and ms3 along with questions. Yes , the 260-270 scorers at my school read BIG Robbins. I do agree that its not for everybody but if one can focus and force themselves to read those books they will do well.

Again, for third year some manage do well by just doing Uworld questions for each rotation. However, one can really excel by picking a good subject specific textbook along with going thru questions for each rotation. A lot these folks did not even finish Uworld during dedicated and still managed to score above 260 on both steps because they consistently studied throughout the year.

Oh and i don't know if you've taken step 2 yet but based off my exam, 30-40 % of the Uworld qbank did not even show up in the real thing. However, i had covered a good majority of that material while reading and studying for each shelf exam which paid off. And from what i recall the same was true for step 1, i had to rely a lot on lecture material.

However, there are many ways to skin a cat and some get by with mainly review material. However from my experiences that seems to be the minority.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

I've yet to meet a single person who read Robbins. Didn't even know people did that. I know plenty of people who used UFAP and got >260.

For step 2 if you're counting things like case files and step up as "textbooks" then ya I'll agree

 

[failedatlife]

Be smart kid, don't go to medical school. It will ruin your life.

 

[Goro]

Be smart kid, don't go to medical school. It will ruin your life.

Histrionics aren't necessary.

 

[iceman55]

I've yet to meet a single person who read Robbins. Didn't even know people did that. I know plenty of people who used UFAP and got >260.

For step 2 if you're counting things like case files and step up as "textbooks" then ya I'll agree

Yes, people definitely read big Robbins. If you attend a school that has minimal attendance requirement second year there's is enough time to do so and you should definitely be doing more than just pathoma for pathology throughout the year.

And UFAP should only really be during dedicated study which is REVIEW.
However, during the school year before dedicated study students should be using more comprehensive material to actually learn the material instead memorizing **** from first aid.

i actually never used case files series. But yes i was referring to textbooks such as step up to medicine, blueprints, BRS, nms , etc.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[.hematoma.]

Yes, people definitely read big Robbins. If you attend a school that has minimal attendance requirement second year there's is enough time to do so and you should definitely be doing more than just pathoma for pathology throughout the year.

And UFAP should only really be during dedicated study which is REVIEW.
However, during the school year before dedicated study students should be using more comprehensive material to actually learn the material instead memorizing **** from first aid.

i actually never used case files series. But yes i was referring to textbooks such as step up to medicine, blueprints, BRS, nms , etc.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

Just to clarify, Step up to Medicine/BRS/NMS are NOT textbooks, those are board prep books. If that's the case, Pathoma is a textbook.

Dude, i think you are wrong. There is a reason why people say the preparation for boards is to work hard throughout the year.

I don't know where you are in your education but I've taken both step 1 and step 2. What I can say for sure is that the AOA students at my school , the ones with 260s on both steps did not get there by relying mainly on review material. They studied consistently throughout ms1-ms3 using TEXTBOOKS and lecture notes. Lecture notes mainly in ms1 and textbooks mainly ms2 and ms3 along with questions. Yes , the 260-270 scorers at my school read BIG Robbins. I do agree that its not for everybody but if one can focus and force themselves to read those books they will do well.

Again, for third year some manage do well by just doing Uworld questions for each rotation. However, one can really excel by picking a good subject specific textbook along with going thru questions for each rotation. A lot these folks did not even finish Uworld during dedicated and still managed to score above 260 on both steps because they consistently studied throughout the year.

Oh and i don't know if you've taken step 2 yet but based off my exam, 30-40 % of the Uworld qbank did not even show up in the real thing. However, i had covered a good majority of that material while reading and studying for each shelf exam which paid off. And from what i recall the same was true for step 1, i had to rely a lot on lecture material.

However, there are many ways to skin a cat and some get by with mainly review material. However from my experiences that seems to be the minority.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

Again, there are many ways that students approach studying; my argument is not that reading textbooks WON'T work, it's that saying that reading textbooks is necessary for success is not correct. I'm an MS3 so I can only speak to Step 1, but I got a 250 (not the 260-270 you mention but still good from a non-SDN standpoint) and I didn't read much in textbooks. Doesn't mean I didn't try; I read Robbins for my first unit of pathology and didn't find it to help me cement the information.

 

[Redpancreas]

My own student who just took Boards told me that "there was stuff on both Step I and COMLEX that wasn't in FA".

I can't argue with a case in point. All I can give is my experience, or rather, relay the experiences and comments of > 1500 of my students. Your mileage may vary.

Of course there's stuff not in the review books that shows up on the USMLE but STEP1 is NOT a "either-you-know-it-or-you-don't" test. They throw multiple bones at you in each question so there's multiple ways to the right answer. You can approach things from a vitals standpoint, see if the patient is stable or unstable and narrow things down, or you can survey the question for symptoms or buzzwords. On each given question, one strategy may work better than the other. While reading Robbins may give you a few random points of Step 1, it will also take lots of time that could be spent drilling home the fundamentals like learning to recognize diseases.

 

[sliceofbread136]

Yes, people definitely read big Robbins. If you attend a school that has minimal attendance requirement second year there's is enough time to do so and you should definitely be doing more than just pathoma for pathology throughout the year.

And UFAP should only really be during dedicated study which is REVIEW.
However, during the school year before dedicated study students should be using more comprehensive material to actually learn the material instead memorizing **** from first aid.

i actually never used case files series. But yes i was referring to textbooks such as step up to medicine, blueprints, BRS, nms , etc.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

I didn't say use ufap during the year but to focus on class lecture material. And I'm still sceptical about anyone actual living human being reading this Robbins book, but hey if you claim thy exist I'll believe you

 

[Redpancreas]

I didn't say use ufap during the year but to focus on class lecture material. And I'm still sceptical about anyone actual living human being reading this Robbins book, but hey if you claim thy exist I'll believe you

Our lecturers all cited Robbins in the making of our course pack. I focused on class material during the year as well as Pathoma for an overview and FA for drilling in some HY points and then UWorld mainly during dedicated

 

[sliceofbread136]

Our lecturers all cited Robbins in the making of our course pack. I focused on class material during the year as well as Pathoma for an overview and FA for drilling in some HY points and then UWorld mainly during dedicated

That sounds very similar to what I did only I did not use pathoma. And ya my professor cited all sorts of random sources, doesn't mean I ever read them.

 

[mehc012]

I've yet to meet a single person who read Robbins. Didn't even know people did that. I know plenty of people who used UFAP and got >260.

For step 2 if you're counting things like case files and step up as "textbooks" then ya I'll agree

Wait, why would you not read Big Robbins? It's everything, in one place. For a PBL based curriculum it's a godsend. I guess maybe if your tests are truly on random factoids rather than the framework and concepts of path and phys in each organ system, a book that's all random factoids too would be better, but for me having context helps memory.

 

[sliceofbread136]

Wait, why would you not read Big Robbins? It's everything, in one place. For a PBL based curriculum it's a godsend. I guess maybe if your tests are truly on random factoids rather than the framework and concepts of path and phys in each organ system, a book that's all random factoids too would be better, but for me having context helps memory.

Because you'll be reading a bunch of stuff that isn't on your test which is just extra work. The material in your lectures is all testable material and has a very high likelihood of being tested. I could see using robins as reference but actually reading all seems like a waste of time

 

[iceman55]

Just to clarify, Step up to Medicine/BRS/NMS are NOT textbooks, those are board prep books. If that's the case, Pathoma is a textbook.





Again, there are many ways that students approach studying; my argument is not that reading textbooks WON'T work, it's that saying that reading textbooks is necessary for success is not correct. I'm an MS3 so I can only speak to Step 1, but I got a 250 (not the 260-270 you mention but still good from a non-SDN standpoint) and I didn't read much in textbooks. Doesn't mean I didn't try; I read Robbins for my first unit of pathology and didn't find it to help me cement the information.

Yes you're right they are board prep books. However, For third year when you need a overview of the field as opposed to resident level knowledge, i would consider those more comprehensive resources in comparison to resources like MTB/FA for step 2.



Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[mehc012]

Because you'll be reading a bunch of stuff that isn't on your test which is just extra work. The material in your lectures is all testable material and has a very high likelihood of being tested. I could see using robins as reference but actually reading all seems like a waste of time

Meh, tests are on the concepts, not the details. I feel like reading Robbins gives me the full picture. We only have like, 6hrs of optional lecture per week anyway, all of which overlaps with the material we self-study for PBL so I've never seen the point. I don't go to lecture and I don't find that focusing on it helps my test results.

 

[sliceofbread136]

Meh, tests are on the concepts, not the details. I feel like reading Robbins gives me the full picture. We only have like, 6hrs of optional lecture per week anyway, all of which overlaps with the material we self-study for PBL so I've never seen the point. I don't go to lecture and I don't find that focusing on it helps my test results.

I didn't have a pbl curriculum (thank the lord) so I guess I have no input there. For me I just memorized the lecture material since that was where the test questions were drawn from. I guess if your tests questions are all drawn from the entirety of a text then you would have to read it to do well, but if that were the case I would not be happy with that curriculum personally

 

[Jabbed]

I don't know if you can honestly compare Pathoma to any of the M3/M4 review materials. SUTM is 500+ pages and could easily be 2-3 times as long if the content was presented in prose vs bullets. Devirgilio is 700+ pages and a brilliant read, but also technically a review book.

Are you seriously plowing through Harrison's for your IM shelf? I read like a fiend through M3/M4, but I would never recommend reading actual hand to God textbooks like Harrison's, Schwartz, and Nelson's outside of a few select pages for specific topics until you have truly mastered the material that you're responsible for as an M3.

My philosophy: My key to success in M1/M2 was always starting with "overview" sources like Pathoma/BRS before moving onto meatier sources like Goljan and finally then lecture notes/occasional textbooks. In a way I feel like M3 is basically just an "overview" year and I stuck to thorough 'overview' books like SUTM, Devirgilio, NMS, etc. M4 year I've started to work on some of the 2-4k page textbooks and I'm very keenly aware of how overwhelmed I would've been if I had tried to do this during M3 with the looming anxiety of a shelf combined with all my clinical duties.

Also see previous threads about people ditching SUTM because it was too time intensive. As great as it sounds, I just don't think it's feasible for the majority of students to read the major tomes of medicine during M3 year..

 

[BufordHighwayMD]

SDN,

I'm a lowly M0 right now. I'd like to piggyback off of comments @Dandine made as a way of asking for advice. I'd like to focus on exams instead of Step 1 during my first three semesters of medical school. So I don't plan on buying USMLE-Rx, Kaplan QBank, UWorld, or NBMEs for a long, long time.

This is what I did for undergraduate classes... I read Kaplan subject books to preview material before it was taught in class. Next, I used lecture notes as my primary learning tool. Then, I completed old TBR end-of-chapter practice questions a week before a test. The old TBR questions were not very MCAT-like, which was good. I benefited from the fact that the old TBR questions didn't integrate concepts from other disciplines. This helped me make sure I was simply studying for my test and not the MCAT. When I started my MCAT prep I had a good foundation from classes, so I was able to spend a lot of time doing questions instead of reviewing.

For the M1 year, does anyone recommend using the Kaplan Step 1 Lecture Notes to preview and review material? For practice questions the week before exams, I'm thinking of using either Lecturio or Osmosis to help me prepare for tests. Does anybody recommend using the questions either of these two companies make for individual subjects? I'll make sure to ask upperclassmen what they recommend. However, based on the lack of posts about Kaplan I don't think anybody here recommends their prep books for medical school.

- BH

 

[mehc012]

I didn't have a pbl curriculum (thank the lord) so I guess I have no input there. For me I just memorized the lecture material since that was where the test questions were drawn from. I guess if your tests questions are all drawn from the entirety of a text then you would have to read it to do well, but if that were the case I would not be happy with that curriculum personally

It's not drawn from the entirety of any text, it's just...more concept based than detail-oriented. We don't have multiple choice exams, which changes things. We have to be able to write about the topics; remembering keywords will get you nowhere on our exams. We have less lecture in a week than we have PBL (or about the same, I guess) so it's really up to us to decide how best to learn things. I think that having the context from textbooks helps me understand the underlying theories and mechanisms better than bare-bones powerpoints or review books. The more I read about physiology and pathology, the more able I am to speak coherently about it or to whip out a paragraph or so in response to a test question.

The surprising part, for me anyway, is that learning that way - focusing on the bigger picture, some specific example pathologies, and being able to talk about the system instead of keyword-link a large number of disorders - it actually nets me decent scores on the NBME subsets they give us, without any additional review needed.

 

[Dandine]

@BufordHighwayMD

My understanding is that the Kaplan question banks have been useful for Step 1 prep, but I'm not sure about how well their notes correlate with class material. Can't say much about the other two yet.

I really liked using questions to quiz myself, but I found the overlap between class and book question material to be "mehh" at best. They did help me nail down material for particular class exams, however, so this will really depend on what question banks you're using. Also realize your professors may have supplemental practice questions of their own that are relevant to lecture material. Can't say more since your curriculum may be different from mine, but in general, if you find using question banks help you develop better recognition or thinking for the classes you're taking and you can do them efficiently, there shouldn't be much of a problem using them.

Another thing I want to mention is that your study methods will probably change throughout the year depending on what resources and techniques you find best for whatever unit you're learning, so you might find using questions better for some units than others. As long as you keep your studying focused (still maintaining a plan and toning down "blind studying"), that's completely ok!

 

[Goro]

The curriculum differences do not account for the different board scores according to one study

How much do differences in medical schools influence student performance? A longitudinal study employing hierarchical linear modeling.​

I think the culture is what is dictating the outcomes.

A former Dean of the Curriculum once told us that UCSF spent millions of dollars changing it's old curriculum to an integrated model. The change didn't move Boards scores one iota.

The students were happier with the newer curriculum, though. I am all for happier students.

 

[ChrisMack390]

I can't fathom only studying First Aid. It's just an outline. I'm just starting school now and half of it is basically unintelligible to me (except those sections for which I've already done readings or lectures).

 

[cellsaver]

A former Dean of the Curriculum once told us that UCSF spent millions of dollars changing it's old curriculum to an integrated model. The change didn't move Boards scores one iota.

The students were happier with the newer curriculum, though. I am all for happier students.

A professor (Chair of a Dept) from my MBA program once told me that is was not their job to teach to the students but to pace graduate students. He stated further that looking back on his own undergraduate and graduate training (Masters and Doctorate Degrees) that few faculty really stood out in his educational journey as being that outstanding. The onus, according to this PhD faculty, is on the students to be driven and follow their dreams. Now that I have returned to my MD program I have to say he really is right. I have met very few students (MBA or MD) who are cut from the cloth of Siddhartha Mukherjee or Michael Porter. I can push myself and hope to be a fraction of these great leaders but when I look around me, it strikes me as a wasteland for the most part with bright points every so often. Clinical rotations? Meh. A good number of Faculty and students are mediocre

The imagery of Robin Williams (RIP) playing the great professor in Dead Poet's Society is moving but that was a different day and age.

 

[sliceofbread136]

It's not drawn from the entirety of any text, it's just...more concept based than detail-oriented. We don't have multiple choice exams, which changes things. We have to be able to write about the topics; remembering keywords will get you nowhere on our exams. We have less lecture in a week than we have PBL (or about the same, I guess) so it's really up to us to decide how best to learn things. I think that having the context from textbooks helps me understand the underlying theories and mechanisms better than bare-bones powerpoints or review books. The more I read about physiology and pathology, the more able I am to speak coherently about it or to whip out a paragraph or so in response to a test question.

The surprising part, for me anyway, is that learning that way - focusing on the bigger picture, some specific example pathologies, and being able to talk about the system instead of keyword-link a large number of disorders - it actually nets me decent scores on the NBME subsets they give us, without any additional review needed.

If it brings you success in your preclinical exams then ya go for it. I would still recommend ufap for step 1 dedicated, and I don't think your method would be as effective for the average student taking the average us medical school multiple choice test

 

[mehc012]

If it brings you success in your preclinical exams then ya go for it. I would still recommend ufap for step 1 dedicated, and I don't think your method would be as effective for the average student taking the average us medical school multiple choice test

Oh sure...I absolutely plan to use review sources during dedicated review time. But I'm using real ones for learning.

And I'm sure I'd switch my strategy up for MC exams - we have one subject that's tested solely through multiple choice, and I can get away without bothering to learn things and score top with just pattern recognition... but I've also gone to the trouble of actually reading textbooks for that course, too, some blocks, and while my grade was the same that block as in the memory-blast ones, I actually remember the material from that block, whereas I don't remember even more recent blocks done with straight review sources and memorization as well now. Plus, as I said, I do just fine on NBME questions each block with my textbook-style prep. Makes me glad that I go to a school with space to learn this way, because I'd hate medical school if it was just memory blast, all the time (and I'd probably blow most of it off and just memorize chunks, but explore the texts only for things I was interested in, which would screw me worse come Step time.)

 

[cellsaver]

Oh sure...I absolutely plan to use review sources during dedicated review time. But I'm using real ones for learning.
..... I'd hate medical school if it was just memory blast, all the time (and I'd probably blow most of it off and just memorize chunks, but explore the texts only for things I was interested in, which would screw me worse come Step time.)

You are doing the right thing. The real learning (which is not memorization) is done by you doing exactly what you are doing. Good to read you are surrounded by like minded peers.

Before we got accepted to a US LCME MD school we ate the expensive, bulky, course textbooks: General/ Organic Chemistry, Physics, Biochem, etc

None of us skimped on Organic by memorizing the relevant formulas. We labored by doing a crushing number of the assigned questions from the professor within the textbook. If we were driven for a high GPA, we bought the solutions manual for the accompanying text and did EXTRA questions from the textbook. And then asked the professor or TA for explanations as needed. Ditto for Physics.

When we applied via AMCAS we sweated every consonant and vowel in our essay. We passed it around to friends who would help us perfect it. We did everything possible to CONVINCE the medical schools we had what it takes to merit a secondary application. Then we dug our heels and worked even harder to pad our secondary application to impress the admin committee that we would thrive and excel in their school. When we got the interview we went the extra mile to prove to the interviewers we would be an asset to their school. Heck we did everything possible to demonstrate we were on fire.

And yet here we are reading comments from people who make excuses all the while running to SDN for "help" on things they really can solve on their own. We are here to prod them. We are enablers.

The more I read on SDN (and hit "ignore" - nod to Goro), the more I think those medical school applicants I described exist but they arent the complainers, whiners, UFAP evangelists on these forums.

Stick to Robbins big book. Janeway Immunobiology, Costanzo / Guyton Physiology, Katzung Pharmacology, Ross and Pawlina Histology.... building blocks for your rotations to launch into even more complex textbooks! lol

 

[ChrisMack390]

You are doing the right thing. The real learning (which is not memorization) is done by you doing exactly what you are doing. Good to read you are surrounded by like minded peers.

Before we got accepted to a US LCME MD school we ate the expensive, bulky, course textbooks: General/ Organic Chemistry, Physics, Biochem, etc

None of us skimped on Organic by memorizing the relevant formulas. We labored by doing a crushing number of the assigned questions from the professor within the textbook. If we were driven for a high GPA, we bought the solutions manual for the accompanying text and did EXTRA questions from the textbook. And then asked the professor or TA for explanations as needed. Ditto for Physics.

When we applied via AMCAS we sweated every consonant and vowel in our essay. We passed it around to friends who would help us perfect it. We did everything possible to CONVINCE the medical schools we had what it takes to merit a secondary application. Then we dug our heels and worked even harder to pad our secondary application to impress the admin committee that we would thrive and excel in their school. When we got the interview we went the extra mile to prove to the interviewers we would be an asset to their school. Heck we did everything possible to demonstrate we were on fire.

And yet here we are reading comments from people who make excuses all the while running to SDN for "help" on things they really can solve on their own. We are here to prod them. We are enablers.

The more I read on SDN (and hit "ignore" - nod to Goro), the more I think those medical school applicants I described exist but they arent the complainers, whiners, UFAP evangelists on these forums.

Stick to Robbins big book. Janeway Immunobiology, Costanzo / Guyton Physiology, Katzung Pharmacology, Ross and Pawlina Histology.... building blocks for your rotations to launch into even more complex textbooks! lol

Imagine trying to study for organic chemistry using only an MCAT review book and Kaplan Q bank

 

[LittleFoot]

One of my pet peeves about giving study advice in this community is that most of the time starts as "You really just need to find out what study methods work for you". And then the same person goes on a rant about what you need to do to be successful (i.e you need to go to lecture, you need to buy all the textbooks, you need to meet with professors, you need a study group, etc).

I don't know what you school you work at Goro, but my experience has been vastly different from yours. I have to question how you are obtaining your information or whether the students are being 100% honest with you. The reason people are reacting to your study advice is because for many students, it is just simply off target. If I were to heed to your advice, I'm confident I would have scored below average on Step 1 wasted a lot of time and money along the way. And sorry, but doing well on Step 1 is the foundation not only for Medical School success but also for being able to match into one's desired specialty.

Among the top 5 scorers on boards at my school, all focused on First Aid, Pathoma and Uworld or another question bank during our classes, and none relied on any textbooks for learning. I know several students who were at the top of my class but got swamped by too many resources/textbooks and ended up doing relatively poorly on boards, and now they are having doubts about matching into their desired specialty.

In my opinion, everyone's ultimate goal during the first 2 years of medical school should be doing well on Step 1 as a way of ruling out as few specialties as possible. Even if you're set you Family Practice, you may find out during rotations that you like a competitive specialty more. Wouldn't it be nice to have a Step 1 score to allow for that?

If we are going to generalize medical school advice that is going to benefit the majority and harm the minority, then we should be talking about how everyone needs to focus on First Aid, Pathoma and Uworld, which is the proven method for doing well on Step 1.

I have found that faculty who downplay the importance of Step 1 are often those that are interested in seeing their students go into primary care. However, it sounds to me like you genuinely want your students to do well. I just think some of your advice may be misleading to many students, which is why you have received some disagreement to your original post.

I'm hoping you don't ignore me because of my reply, but at the same time I'm kind of curious what odd sensation you'll tell me I will feel.

 

[Goro]

One of my pet peeves about giving study advice in this community is that most of the time starts as "You really just need to find out what study methods work for you". And then the same person goes on a rant about what you need to do to be successful (i.e you need to go to lecture, you need to buy all the textbooks, you need to meet with professors, you need a study group, etc).

I don't know what you school you work at Goro, but my experience has been vastly different from yours. I have to question how you are obtaining your information or whether the students are being 100% honest with you. The reason people are reacting to your study advice is because for many students, it is just simply off target. If I were to heed to your advice, I'm confident I would have scored below average on Step 1 wasted a lot of time and money along the way. And sorry, but doing well on Step 1 is the foundation not only for Medical School success but also for being able to match into one's desired specialty.

Among the top 5 scorers on boards at my school, all focused on First Aid, Pathoma and Uworld or another question bank during our classes, and none relied on any textbooks for learning. I know several students who were at the top of my class but got swamped by too many resources/textbooks and ended up doing relatively poorly on boards, and now they are having doubts about matching into their desired specialty.

In my opinion, everyone's ultimate goal during the first 2 years of medical school should be doing well on Step 1 as a way of ruling out as few specialties as possible. Even if you're set you Family Practice, you may find out during rotations that you like a competitive specialty more. Wouldn't it be nice to have a Step 1 score to allow for that?

If we are going to generalize medical school advice that is going to benefit the majority and harm the minority, then we should be talking about how everyone needs to focus on First Aid, Pathoma and Uworld, which is the proven method for doing well on Step 1.

I have found that faculty who downplay the importance of Step 1 are often those that are interested in seeing their students go into primary care. However, it sounds to me like you genuinely want your students to do well. I just think some of your advice may be misleading to many students, which is why you have received some disagreement to your original post.

I'm hoping you don't ignore me because of my reply, but at the same time I'm kind of curious what odd sensation you'll tell me I will feel.

They're just suggestions, fer crying out loud. Either feel free to ignore them, or show me the gun I'm placing against your temple that's forcing you.

This is not an argument from authority, but one from experience. Your experiences are unique to you. I'm giving you my observations from close to 20 years of teaching.

Please notice the bolded text from my OP: I was asked by an SDNer about the big DOs and DON’Ts of being a med student. Here are my thoughts....

Here are some tips that I have gleaned from my successful students, and helpful SDNers. In no particular order....

I am perplexed at the accusations that my students are being dishonest in the exact same way for all this time.

And again, medical education doesn't begin nor end with Step I. This from someone who has no problem teaching to the boards.

No, I won't put you on Ignore. You're at least not going loose cannon on me.

 

[.hematoma.]

Yes you're right they are board prep books. However, For third year when you need a overview of the field as opposed to resident level knowledge, i would consider those more comprehensive resources in comparison to resources like MTB/FA for step 2.



Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

Well I think we agree then that review books are the way to go (and the specific ones you choose are based on which ones do the best job).

 

[LittleFoot]

Sure, I can ignore your suggestions, but you are a figure whose opinion many pre-med students hold a lot of respect on this forum and so said opinion carries a lot of weight. I have no idea why you have seen that stronger students are using more resources/textbooks than "weaker" students. That just seems really bizarre to me. According to that, the top students in my class were all "weak students" and the bottom of my class were the strong ones. Sure, a few of the students who blew Step 1 out of the water were only average on rotations, but I don't think it had anything to do with how many textbooks they used during their pre-clinical years.

 

[Goro]

Sure, I can ignore your suggestions, but you are a figure whose opinion many pre-med students hold a lot of respect on this forum and so said opinion carries a lot of weight. I have no idea why you have seen that stronger students are using more resources/textbooks than "weaker" students. That just seems really bizarre to me. According to that, the top students in my class were all "weak students" and the bottom of my class were the strong ones. Sure, a few of the students who blew Step 1 out of the water were only average on rotations, but I don't think it had anything to do with how many textbooks they used during their pre-clinical years.

The observation is very simple

Ask the strongest student (like in the top 10), what do they do to be successful

The ask the student who get pulled into the Student Advancement Committee (the failing students) what are they doing to study.

Compare answers.

At my school, over the course of all the time I've been here, the strongest students all do pretty much the same thing. That is, they all report to me that they use a wide variety of resources, and strategies. Another way of saying this is they don't merely rely on PPTs, nor do they solely use FA or similar texts. I can't simplify this.

My weakest students all pretty much do the same things as well, amongst their cohort. They generally try to memorize what's on the PPTs, without learning how to apply that knowledge, and if it's not in FA, they don't bother with it. Are they all lying too? They have a lot of other deficits as well which hinders their success.

I have simply told you what I have observed, and heard.

So once again, SDNers are advised not to engage in the sin of solipsism. Which means "I'm a strong student and I only use FA. Therefore , all strong students use only FA too."

And please do NOT think like this:
"My weakest classmates all use multiple resources. How dare you say I'm a weak student because that what I do too!!!"


I think it's good idea to buy the required texts. You don't have to. But stop taking it personally.

Capeesh?

Some of the responses in this thread make me wonder how on earth people made it past CARS or VR on the MCAT.

 

[cellsaver]

Some of the responses in this thread make me wonder how on earth people made it past CARS or VR on the MCAT.

 

[LittleFoot]

I gave you my anecdotal evidence, you gave me yours. If mine is the sin of solipsism, so is yours.

You said it yourself, weak students often have many other deficits. The same can be said for the strongest students. Just because the strongest students at your school use textbooks and many resources, doesn't mean that is what brought them success, and it doesn't mean the same is true everywhere else. Some of the responses in this thread make me wonder how on earth people made it past Statistics during undergrad. I seem to remember something along the lines of correlation does not imply causation.

Also, I find it ironic that you are telling me to stop taking things personally.

 

[Goro]

I gave you my anecdotal evidence, you gave me yours. If mine is the sin of solipsism, so is yours.

You said it yourself, weak students often have many other deficits. The same can be said for the strongest students. Just because the strongest students at your school use textbooks and many resources, doesn't mean that is what brought them success, and it doesn't mean the same is true everywhere else. Some of the responses in this thread make me wonder how on earth people made it past Statistics during undergrad. I seem to remember something along the lines of correlation does not imply causation.

Also, I find it ironic that you are telling me to stop taking things personally.

If I want grief in my life, it's faster simply to punch the Dean.

I'm simply making suggestions here, not advising on the best use of Verapimal or treatments for steatorrhea.

 

[cellsaver]

If I want grief in my life, it's faster simply to punch the Dean.

I'm simply making suggestions here, not advising on the best use of Verapimal or treatments for steatorrhea.

Sorry but using FA for those treatment decisions will open you up to medmal lawsuits, medical errors, and lacking scientific evidenced based medicine to CYA. Now if you happened to make screen shots for your personal edification of all of UWorld Qbanks, then you'd might be standing on terra firma - but i would never recommend doing that.

 

[T800'sThumb]

If I want grief in my life, it's faster simply to punch the Dean.

I'm simply making suggestions here, not advising on the best use of Verapimal or treatments for steatorrhea.

that sure is a lot of grief for advice that one must expect from faculty... sort of like a cop telling someone to obey all the laws at all times and people coming on talking about "there's no way i'd stop at a goddamn stop sign in a neighborhood at 4 in the morning!"

i think you can gather from all this that there's quite a bit of resentment for faculty who push a lot of textbooks and proceed to teach poorly from them. leads to students feeling like their time is being wasted [for no good reason]. Hell hath'ing no wrath and the like.

edit: you should understand that people do value your perspective.

 

[cellsaver]

i think you can gather from all this that there's quite a bit of resentment for faculty who push a lot of textbooks and proceed to teach poorly from them. leads to students feeling like their time is being wasted [for no good reason]. Hell hath'ing no wrath and the like.

The hell hath no fury quote is rather sexist so be careful with it. The quote is

Heav'n has no Rage, like Love to Hatred turn'd,
Nor Hell a Fury, like a Woman scorn'd.
William Congreve in the Mourning Bride, 1697 ​

But I get your point. As I have stated elsewhere, learning medicine is on the students. Medical school was never about spoon feeding students the content. If anything the medical students have it far easier today compared to 30 years ago. Back then textbooks were all they had, printed in black and white, no graphics, no ebooks, libraries poorly lit, no computers at home to surf google, and they drank coffee by the pot full to make it through their training. Today with Adderall, computers, lectures available in powerpoint via download, zillions of review books, all acquired illegally via download on torrent sites, and so many more resources, the complaining is pretty pathetic.

WE have it far easier today in medical school in America compared to the training our parents physicians experienced. the instructors were up tight, impatient, demanding and many were abusive.

If students feel like their time is being wasted, then they should drop out of school, unplug from reddit, FB, Twitter, etc or embrace the fact that our profession is an obscene one full of sacrifice and thankless loads of work. No one put a gun to their heads to pursue an MD Degree. If they don't want to do the work, thousands of other applicants would love to have their seat.

That's why Goro and many of us just don't buy the arguments. You're lucky in your medical school. Suck it up or be a nurse

 

[ERDOC555]

You're lucky in your medical school. Suck it up

I actually find this debate to be very interesting, however I can't disagree with this line more. This toxic mentality has been used by administrators and faculty to justify a complete lack of effort or quality curriculum time and time again.

Yes, being in med school is "special" and we are very fortunate to have earned our seats, but a ****load of rejected applicants is no excuse for garbage medical education. Med school doesn't have to suck, when done right learning is fun and school can honestly be pretty enjoyable. "Med school has to suck because of everyone knows it sucks" is a pathetic excuse and one of the biggest problems facing medical education.

 

[T800'sThumb]

If anything the medical students have it far easier today compared to 30 years ago. Back then textbooks were all they had, printed in black and white, no graphics, no ebooks, libraries poorly lit, no computers at home to surf google, and they drank coffee by the pot full to make it through their training. Today with Adderall, computers, lectures available in powerpoint via download, zillions of review books, all acquired illegally via download on torrent sites, and so many more resources, the complaining is pretty pathetic.

If students feel like their time is being wasted, then they should drop out of school, unplug from reddit, FB, Twitter, etc or embrace the fact that our profession is an obscene one full of sacrifice and thankless loads of work. No one put a gun to their heads to pursue an MD Degree. If they don't want to do the work, thousands of other applicants would love to have their seat.

That's why Goro and many of us just don't buy the arguments. You're lucky in your medical school. Suck it up or be a nurse

Is there more (or less) to know today than compared to 30 years ago? Has our capacity/efficiency in learning drastically increased or not? Not everyone acquires sources illegally; i'd probably not accuse strangers on the internet of being criminals.

You don't have to buy any of the arguments. you don't even have to be open to the fact that the vast majority of med students are [anecdotally] in consensus against you.

 

[T800'sThumb]

I actually find this debate to be very interesting, however I can't disagree with this line more. This toxic mentality has been used by administrators and faculty to justify a complete lack of effort or quality curriculum time and time again.

Yes, being in med school is "special" and we are very fortunate to have earned our seats, but a ****load of rejected applicants is no excuse for garbage medical education. Med school doesn't have to suck, when done right learning is fun and school can honestly be pretty enjoyable. "Med school has to suck because of everyone knows it sucks" is a pathetic excuse and one of the biggest problems facing medical education.

Back in my day, we literally rubbed dirt in all our wounds! Sure, half of us died of infection, but we died knowing the glory of sacrifice! and commitment!

 

[sliceofbread136]

Sure, I can ignore your suggestions, but you are a figure whose opinion many pre-med students hold a lot of respect on this forum and so said opinion carries a lot of weight. I have no idea why you have seen that stronger students are using more resources/textbooks than "weaker" students. That just seems really bizarre to me. According to that, the top students in my class were all "weak students" and the bottom of my class were the strong ones. Sure, a few of the students who blew Step 1 out of the water were only average on rotations, but I don't think it had anything to do with how many textbooks they used during their pre-clinical years.

I think there is pretty strong possible confounder in his observation in that the people he is observing "at the top of the class" using multiple resources are simply studying that much more. Students who already overachieve are going through extra efforts to be extremely thorough and detail oriented with multiple resources. Like you say this correlation is likely being mistaken for a causation and weaker students are being advised to use multiple resources because that is what the stronger students are apparantly being observed to do. I have my own prediction that when a weaker student tries to adopt this method they actually get bogged down with too much info and too much passive reading and effectively receive worse scores and end up doing worse overall, but I have no way of proving that.

My own observations have been that focusing on power points and lecture material for classes with light supplementation with fa and some practice questions is the way to go for preclinicals and then intensive ufap for dedicated is the way to go. This worked for me and many of my peers. In all honesty though, most of my experience is with people who are strong test takers and were also strong students so there be some bias in my observations as well. I think the data I've actually seen (that goro posted without actually reading) supports my observations more, but there isn't a black and white answer. It would an interesting question to really answer with a study, and I think it's a fun conversation to have (despite some posters being very pouty and not up for discussion)

 

[sliceofbread136]

I actually find this debate to be very interesting, however I can't disagree with this line more. This toxic mentality has been used by administrators and faculty to justify a complete lack of effort or quality curriculum time and time again.

Yes, being in med school is "special" and we are very fortunate to have earned our seats, but a ****load of rejected applicants is no excuse for garbage medical education. Med school doesn't have to suck, when done right learning is fun and school can honestly be pretty enjoyable. "Med school has to suck because of everyone knows it sucks" is a pathetic excuse and one of the biggest problems facing medical education.

I totally agree. I hate seeing professors who feel teaching is all about them and arent doing all they can to optimally teach. I really see it as a squandered opportunity to have a positive effect on the next generation of physicians.