Got into both DO and MD and took the DO path?

[Chief Resident]

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I think you need to go into psych so you can relate to your patients. And again they spots they beat people out for are not one people don't want. Check the IM forum and Em forum for interviews and they have competitive places listed to interview and by their scores they will match.

Again, anecdotal evidence at best. Try to find DOs routinely beating out U.S. MDs in allopathic residency spots, especially the more competetive residencies.

 

[pathdawg]

7. You cannot practice in all specialities (I'm not exactly sure about this one but am pretty sure Path and Radiation Therapy are MD only- someone else please comment on this)

Nope. There are no MD-only specialties. I am a DO and a pathologist (allopathic residency and fellowship). It wasn't a real big deal.

Constructive post, tho.

 

[allendo]

Again, anecdotal evidence at best. Try to find DOs routinely beating out U.S. MDs in allopathic residency spots, especially the more competetive residencies.

Since your interested in Psych, have you diagnosed yourself? Anyways, your a big bad M.D. why are you looking into psych and surg, not that competetive!

 

[Chief Resident]

Since your interested in Psych, have you diagnosed yourself? Anyways, your a big bad M.D. why are you looking into psych and surg, not that competetive!

Seems like you're trying to change the discussion since you can't stay on topic. It's behavior like that which has caused threads to be locked.

 

[Taus]

Just got back from my anatomy final and what do I see.....haha...please refer back to my original post in this thread where I made some predictions. I'm disapointed that it took the good chief so long to get to this thread, I thought my predictions weren't going to come true.

Anyway, to the OP and others actually interested in this thread for its original purpose, if you wade through the bull$hit and the irrelevent trollish comments, you'll find some good constructive information.

p.s.- Allen and Chief - correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think it would be a benefit to everyone here if you could take your personal problems with each other out of the public forums and into PM's.

 

[allendo]

Seems like you're trying to change the discussion since you can't stay on topic. It's behavior like that which has caused threads to be locked.

What is your problem Chief, why do you constantly troll in the D.O. forum. If your going to be in our forum all the time maybe you should respect us. We are all going to be physicians in the future, and mutual respect must be present. I have no problem with you, except for the fact that anytime you can speak negatively about D.O.'s you jump on it.

 

[Chief Resident]

What is your problem Chief, why do you constantly troll in the D.O. forum.

In no way do I "troll". Just because the things I discuss are not sugarcoated doesn't mean it's trolling.

 

[allendo]

In no way do I "troll". Just because the things I discuss are not sugarcoated doesn't mean it's trolling.

What about mutual respect?

 

[Chief Resident]

What about mutual respect?

What about it?

 

[Taus]

Chief, listen, I usually don't participate in threads that take this direction, but my question is this. Why do you take it upon yourself to find every single opportunity in every thread w/ the letters DO in it to proclaim how inferior we are? We are all aware that the opportunities in the very competative allo residencies are slim, albeit not non-existant, for us. That is a well established point, whether I/we like it or not, and might even need to be made into a sticky. But to make sure you come on every single osteo thread and attempt to belittle us....I just don't understand it. I guess we are just cut from different molds, and thats ok as no two people are alike, I would just really like to know why you choose to contribute to these threads on what seems like a daily basis?

 

[Taus]

I guess I now realize why I don't need to watch soap operas....I have SDN....

 

[MoosePilot]

Chief, listen, I usually don't participate in threads that take this direction, but my question is this. Why do you take it upon yourself to find every single opportunity in every thread w/ the letters DO in it to proclaim how inferior we are? We are all aware that the opportunities in the very competative allo residencies are slim, albeit not non-existant, for us. That is a well established point, whether I/we like it or not, and might even need to be made into a sticky. But to make sure you come on every single osteo thread and attempt to belittle us....I just don't understand it. I guess we are just cut from different molds, and thats ok as no two people are alike, I would just really like to know why you choose to contribute to these threads on what seems like a daily basis?

Sometimes people have to attack others because they don't feel good about themselves. Being better than someone gives a feeling of achievement that just being an allo student doesn't. I don't know about CR, but I can see a student who had trouble going smoothly through his allo program and needs to make someone smaller in order for him to feel bigger do this sort of thing.

 

[Chief Resident]

Why do you take it upon yourself to find every single opportunity in every thread w/ the letters DO in it to proclaim how inferior we are?

I don't do that. That may be your own interpretation of it, but that's not what I do.

We are all aware that the opportunities in the very competative allo residencies are slim, albeit not non-existant, for us. That is a well established point, whether I/we like it or not, and might even need to be made into a sticky.

That's not entirely true. There are people here spreading incorrect information like how going the DO route opens up more doors, etc.

 

[ProZackMI]

From my time spent on this board I've come to realize the M.D.s are a immature buch of people with chips on their shoulders. Anyone who thinks they are better than another person should not be practicing medicine. The M.D. world is only measured by test scores bla bla bla guess what your patient will not ask you what you made on your MCAT nor your SAT. So to all the pompas M.D.s who think you are the gods of the medical world "Grow Up".

While I think many MDs tend to have an ego, not all do. Many, like myself, see DOs as their PCPs or FPs, and many refer to them. Personally, for my own medical tx, I will only see DOs.

I don't think it's a fair assessment, however, to say the MD world is measured by test scores. Um, aren't all professions measured by test scores? Allopathic and osteopathic med use MCAT scores, USMLE I and II scores (or the osteo equivalent), residency matching (a sort of score), etc. Pharmacy, vet med, optometry, law, graduate programs, etc. all use test scores (PCAT, DAT, OAT, GRE, GMAT, LSAT, etc.). It's not just allo med that uses scores.

Also, not all MDs think they are better. Remember one thing, it's not the degree that makes a you a good doctor/practitioner, it's the person. I find it hard to believe that where you went to school, or what degree you earned, would make you any less of a physician.

 

[ProZackMI]

You know Chief I'm tired of you, I've backed off and tried to be nice and even make constructive comments on threads you've started but you continue to be a jerk. I have to pose this question then, if D.O.'s are so far below M.D.'s then why are D.O.'s beating out M.D.'s for residency spots. And don't try to say they arent b/c I remember a couple of months ago in the allo or internal med forum there was a thread about how to beat out the D.O.'s for Im spots. Also, why do M.D.'s teach at our schools, do they stand up there the whole time thinking about how ignorant we are? No. I know plenty of D.O.'s from my school that have went allo cards, rad-onc, rads, gi, pulm, surg, and Er. When it boils down to it, yes some programs will judge you b/c your D.O. but most will not. They want someone who will show up to work, and work hard and give there best effort, not someone who made a 40 on the MCAT.

Don't listen to that sort of crap. For anyone, MD or DO, to say one form of medicine (osteo or allo) is superior to the other is completely ridiculous. I did my residency at William Beaumont Hospital (Royal Oak) and U of Mich Med Center. I worked alongside MDs, DOs, PharmDs, PhDs, PsyDs, and DDSs. Some of the best physicians I've encountered were DOs. I'm not just talking bedside manner, but actual clinical/diagnostic/medical skills. Some of the worst physicians I've encountered were MDs (especially foreign medical grads). That's not to say MDs are worse than DOs, or that DOs are better than MDs, or anything like that, but what I'm trying to say is that DOs are accepted by everyone as equals in the medical community. I'm only 35 and have been out of residency a few years, but I can honestly say that I've never heard a patient, nurse, health care professional, or even MD ever make a disrespectful comment about a DO. My MD colleagues frequently refer to DOs and attend lectures by prominent DOs.

 

[allendo]

While I think many MDs tend to have an ego, not all do. Many, like myself, see DOs as their PCPs or FPs, and many refer to them. Personally, for my own medical tx, I will only see DOs.

I don't think it's a fair assessment, however, to say the MD world is measured by test scores. Um, aren't all professions measured by test scores? Allopathic and osteopathic med use MCAT scores, USMLE I and II scores (or the osteo equivalent), residency matching (a sort of score), etc. Pharmacy, vet med, optometry, law, graduate programs, etc. all use test scores (PCAT, DAT, OAT, GRE, GMAT, LSAT, etc.). It's not just allo med that uses scores.

Also, not all MDs think they are better. Remember one thing, it's not the degree that makes a you a good doctor/practitioner, it's the person. I find it hard to believe that where you went to school, or what degree you earned, would make you any less of a physician.

I'm sorry I shouldn't have overgeneralized about all allopaths. I was frustrated about Chief Res and made a blanket statement.

 

[JakeHarley]

Ok, back on topic...

I've been pondering this same dilemma as well. Here are my thoughts on the subject, maybe they will give you some other things to think about:

1) I am very interested in learning OMM, even if I don't end up using it a lot in practice. I am just personally interested in/attracted to physical structure and would like the extra time spent learning it in a hands on way.

2) I am a non-trad student (28 years) with good GPA and MCAT, but I had a very rough time in college right out of high school. I've also balanced many other interests in the last 8 years, which some schools have seemed to love while most have seen as an indication that I am not as committed to medicine as other applicants. DO schools have been more receptive to my background than MD schools, but there are definitely MD programs out there with the same values...i.e, iversity" isn't exclusive to DO programs.

3) That being said, I feel as if I have been fighting an uphill battle the last few years because of my past...I am looking forward to starting med school with a clean slate. I am a little concerned about going DO because I haven't chosen a specialty yet, and I am nervous about going a route that will pose more unneccesary hurdles to jump if I chose to go into a competetive specialty.

4) I am pretty sure I am not going to be interested in a surgery subspecialty, rad, or derm. However, I can't be 100% sure about that until I actually rotate in my 3rd and 4th year.

5) While the costs of attending the out of state MD programs I am considering is roughly equivalent to the DO program I am considering, the DO program has already offered me a significant scholarship based on my "prior academic achievement." I know I won't be offered similar financial incentives from MD programs based on my scores.

6) One theme in my recent life has been developing a more self-validating decision making process. While I have a long way to go on this, I can say that I am at least not concerned about what the actual letters will be behind my name or the minority nature of osteopathy. As long as I can be licensed to practice the specialty I chose, I will be happy. 👍

Good luck!!! I'd love to hear what you chose!

 

[Senor Fish]

Bit of a loaded question here:

I'm in the same situation, trying to decide to go MD or DO and I'm having a tough time.

Can MD's learn OMM post-residency? I realize many DO students just cringed, so let me be more specific. I know DO's spend years and hundreds of hours learning OMM. Can a six or eight week OMM course (if such exists) teach enough basic OMM that would be useful to an MD practice or would it just be a waste of time? In other words, can I have my cake and eat it too?

 

[OSUdoc08]

Bit of a loaded question here:

I'm in the same situation, trying to decide to go MD or DO and I'm having a tough time.

Can MD's learn OMM post-residency? I realize many DO students just cringed, so let me be more specific. I know DO's spend years and hundreds of hours learning OMM. Can a six or eight week OMM course (if such exists) teach enough basic OMM that would be useful to an MD practice or would it just be a waste of time? In other words, can I have my cake and eat it too?

Just go to DO school if you want to do OMM.

It can be done, but it gets complicated.

 

[priu]

All of the advice given is highly appreciated!

 

[priu]

In what respect does it get complicated? As in along the lines that you can use certain forms of OMM but can't bill or anything?

Just go to DO school if you want to do OMM.

It can be done, but it gets complicated.

 

[allendo]

In what respect does it get complicated? As in along the lines that you can use certain forms of OMM but can't bill or anything?

You can bill. It adds a little extra boost to your income for a couple of minutes of work.

 

[Megalofyia]

Bit of a loaded question here:

I'm in the same situation, trying to decide to go MD or DO and I'm having a tough time.

Can MD's learn OMM post-residency? I realize many DO students just cringed, so let me be more specific. I know DO's spend years and hundreds of hours learning OMM. Can a six or eight week OMM course (if such exists) teach enough basic OMM that would be useful to an MD practice or would it just be a waste of time? In other words, can I have my cake and eat it too?

It can be done. I dont know how long the OMM classes last for MD students. It would be harder to practice the techniques like the DO students were able to do for two years on each other.

There is some DO school where an MD is one of the OMM teachers. It might be Oklahoma's school.

 

[hermione]

You can bill. It adds a little extra boost to your income for a couple of minutes of work.

Can MDs bill for OMM?? I wasn't aware of this.

 

[OSUdoc08]

Can MDs bill for OMM?? I wasn't aware of this.

Yes.

One of the OMM instructors at my school is an MD. She did OMM training at my school after graduating, and currently uses it on patients in her pediatric practice.

 

[SquidDoc]

Yes.

One of the OMM instructors at my school is an MD. She did OMM training at my school after graduating, and currently uses it on patients in her pediatric practice.

Wow, I had no idea such programs existed!

We have tons of MDs teaching at our school. In fact, I would say that more of the clinicians are DOs than MDs for our systems. We have a trend of finding really dynamic academic lecturers from neighboring medical schools (Loma Linda, USC, UCLA) and using them to get the most up to date info. Our OMM department however is made up of entirely DOs.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Wow, I had no idea such programs existed!

We have tons of MDs teaching at our school. In fact, I would say that more of the clinicians are DOs than MDs for our systems. We have a trend of finding really dynamic academic lecturers from neighboring medical schools (Loma Linda, USC, UCLA) and using them to get the most up to date info. Our OMM department however is made up of entirely DOs.

apparently harvard has a cme program for md's that is really popular. they kept on talking about it at my dmu interview. if i go the md route, i'm definitely going to look into something like this.

 

[hermione]

Yes.

One of the OMM instructors at my school is an MD. She did OMM training at my school after graduating, and currently uses it on patients in her pediatric practice.

Thats cool. Is there a certain requirement that MDs have to meet in order to be able to use/bill for OMM, or can they just learn from another DO, etc?

 

[docbill]

by the time one finishes med school. Either MD or DO. They will be so busy trying to specialize or just doing the requirements for their residency, they will be less in need of learn OMM. Of course that is different for those doing Osteo Residency (limited to DO's) or Rehab or Muscular related specialty (MD or DO). That is the reason most DOs don't use OMM.

 

[Senor Fish]

Thanks, I appreciate the info everyone.

 

[realmdo]

I am obviously bias because I am MD, but I have considered this question myself and have come up with these

Several things to consider:
1. Many DO programs don't offer the same kind of exposures in clinical years and especially residencies as MD programs do. (DO hospitals are generally small)
2. You will have to spend the rest of your life explaining to people what a DO is.
3. Their is a definate bias againt DO's in many medical institutions.
4. OMM is a very very small part of medicine overall.
5. You can always learn OMM on the side.
6. DO school are generally easier to get into and therefore do not attract as strong of colleagues as most MD programs (acedemically)(this obviously depends on the MD program but most would have to agree that the best DO schools are nowhere near as competative as the best MD programs)
7. You cannot practice in all specialities (I'm not exactly sure about this one but am pretty sure Path and Radiation Therapy are MD only- someone else please comment on this)

Major pro's of DO:
1. OMM
2. Osteopathic women are generally better looking 😍
3. Testing is easier. I go to program with shared 1st year classes, MD and DO, and pass grade is lower for DO class. Don't know personally if COMPLEX is easier than USMLE.
4. General public seems to latch onto OMM and many will swear by it giving you an excellent marketing advantage over many MD's.

some comments on your post.
1. THERE ARE DO PATHOLOGISTS EXIST. I know some DO schools path instructors are DO.
2. DO schools have more pretty girls, which makes guys happier. Actually DO are very women firendly ever since the 1st DO class.
3. DO students are older and more mature, with more life experience, which is very important in pt care.
4. undergraduate medical education is not that important. medicine is about life long learning. It depends on how long can you stick on that, not what school you graduate.
5. Most DOs go to primary care, so be nice to us if you want pt referred to you.
6. top allopathic schools own reputation by research. Do you like to be a lab rats? I guess you want to make $$ right? Don't be shy on that.
7. I am currently rotating in a pretty decent hosp. I know many attendings, some always keep their knowledge up to date some don't. Doesn't matter they are MD or DO.
8. I should shut up now, so should this thread.

 

[priu]

With all due respect, I totally disagree with point 8. I've learned quite a bit from the thread, thanks to everyone who has posted.

 

[carn311]

With all due respect, I totally disagree with point 8. I've learned quite a bit from the thread, thanks to everyone who has posted.

Agreed. This thread held together for quite some time. I'm almost proud.. 🙄

To get this thread started again: OMT obviously is a worthwhile addition to FP but what about EM? Is there any room for OMT in a buisy ED? And does going DO put you at a disadvantage in the pursuit of an EM residency?

 

[Taus]

I don't have the stats off-hand (and the search fxn is down), but as far as I know, EM is one of most popular choices among DO residents, right behind FP and IM...don't quote me on that though. You can probably find more specific info in the EM forum on this SDN.

 

[(nicedream)]

And does going DO put you at a disadvantage in the pursuit of an EM residency?

Taus is right. DOs do the best in ACGME programs for IM and FP. After that, psych and peds, then anesth, then EM. Being a DO definitely puts you at a disadvantage for certain ACGME EM residencies, but there are quite a few DO friendly ones.

 

[blocks]

Are you saying that rural areas have only white people?

No, but you were saying why does it matter if you learn medicine where there are only white people.

 

[jbone]

If I had to do it over again, I would have gone for my DO. I went to Michigan State University College of Human Medicine, but I took many of my first two year classes with MSU Osteo Med students. The osteo faculty seemed to really care about the students and did not have the massive egos the MD faculty did. The docs that came out of MSU's osteo med school were among the brightest I've ever encountered. I noticed a HUGE difference in doctor-patient interaction among the DOs. Based on my personal observations, it appeared that, on average, DOs, regardless of speciality, spent more time with their patients and actually listened to their patients. I'm an MD and a psychiatrist. I'm trained to listen and observe, but it seems many of my MD colleagues don't have much interest in listening to the patient.

I see a DO as my PCP. I also see a DO uro who treated me for nephrolithiasis. The care I received was excellent! If I had to do it over again, I would have gone the DO route. I think osteopaths receive excellent training in patient communication, which fosters great trust and tx compliance. Also, while many MDs feel they are superior to DOs, they are not. A DO and MD receive essentially the same training and are treated equally under the law. There is nothing an MD can do that a DO cannot do.

Just my two cents! 🙂
Zack

That was a great post 👍 . I believe this is how the large majority of Docs feel about the whole MD/DO debate, it doesn't matter to them. You are obviously a great doc because you don't judge or have a "better than you" attitude. Thanks. 🙂
I'm in the same boat this year, both MD, and DO acceptances and I'm torn with the difficult decision. Isn't life great? I guess you should go where you feel most comfortable.
Good thread, except for the immature dork that feels he/she must belittle others to make them feel better about their pathetic life. 👎 Dude, seriously...get a life/job/soul mate/beer/gun...whatever, just get it. Thanks.

 

[bones]

I have acceptance to my in state MD program (from what I've seen/heard, it is definitely a good program), but am still considering DO schools and do have some time to decide on my MD acceptance. My parent, an allopathic physician, is rather negative about the direction I'm going in... she says that the MD students who rotate in her department have had better knowledge than DO students. Perhaps it may be somewhat true, perhaps it's biased. I don't know. What I'd like to get out of creating this thread is perhaps DO students - those in MS1,2,3,4, residents, and perhaps fully trained docs - that went DO over an MD and are satisfied with their path. I would like to hear others' experiences, I have geniune interest in the DO approach and more specifically OMM. And please no rude comments, as we all have our biases. Besides, I'm hoping to show some responses in order to hopefully change a few minds!

you ask an excellent question. I struggled with the very same thing.

I have to say that for me going DO was a great decision- but a VERY difficult one. Some of the tier 1 medical schools will give you the same medical academic knowledge with a lot less work. You spend a lot of time studying in any school, and there are great professors at every school, but clinically when you have 3 or 4 faculty to one student instead of several students to one faculty (who may or may not be good), its a BIG difference. You can hand pick the great ones to learn from, instead of taking whatever they give you. Harvard for example has a class size of about 50 with many faculty to choose from in every department. Some DO schools have one or two faculty members for some of their departments with 150-200+ students per class. I've even heard a few like lake erie and nova take class attendence to make sure you show... haha. implies nobody wants to go to class there.


Unfortunately, at the moment there are no tier 1 DO schools (that i know of) with extensive clinical research faculty and a department structure like the tier 1 allo schools. If I knew of one I'd have gone there in a heartbeat.


The big thing that DO schools offer is the integrative approach to patient care, osteopathic philosophy, and osteopathic manipulation. For me, this was what swayed me to go osteopathic. I decided early i didnt want to practice any other way. I chose to go to the motherschool of osteopathy (KCOM)... but even here, there were some students that did not come here to learn about osteopathy at all. I know this is true in the great majority of DO schools.


Ultimately, if you are smart enough and dedicated enough, you will learn everything you need to know about medicine in any school. DO schools offer osteopathic faculty that, if you shadow them regularly outside of class- will offer you tremendous advantages in your future patient care, as your hands become your most valuable, most portable, and least expensive diagnostic tool.

As far as residency concerns go- they are almost a non-issue. Many on here seem to worry that the DO route closes residency doors or something. Honestly, the very best residencies in the country all accept DO's with little or no bias. If there was something that kept you from getting into their medical school (poor study skills, lack of intellectual curiosity, poor interpersonal skills, etc), you probably wont have a good shot at their residency either- but not because you're a DO.


Where i am in my education now- I am VERY glad i went DO. But it was a hard road. I will be using an osteopathic approach to all my patients, and OMM on the majority- even though i am applying to competitive allopathic neurology and physiatry programs for residency and probably eventually a pain management fellowship (which is traditionally hands-off allopathic all the way). I have already had countless dramatic successes during rotations with patients that many very experienced docs (MD and DO alike) had given up on with their traditional tools. Pain is the easiest, but you can imagine how valuable the ability to successfully treat disabling chronic pain might be. I have also had some luck with chronic medical conditions that are thought to be without cure and are expensive to treat (like acid reflux, hiatal hernias, certain kinds of scoliosis, constipation, lymphedma, migraines,"fibromyalgia" and regional fascial syndromes, meniere's syndrome, newborn colic, chronic recurrent otitis media, developmental delay, etc. etc)

Patients will even pay out of pocket for a good osteopath with skilled hands- unlike any pure specialist other than a plastic surgeon. Thus- there is also more money to be made by a skilled osteopathic family practice doc with great hands than there is in radiology or anesthesiology- traditionally the best paying specialties (i know many DO's with good hands grossing well upwards of 400k/year in big cities- and there are virtually no costs involved other than a table and some cheap malpractice)... The funny thing is, most DO's never bother to study OMM or osteopathic philosophy deeply enough to be able to apply it in a way that would allow them to run practices like this, and many don't even know this is possible. I had already studied it for a while before i realized the economy of these sorts of practices. The money is a nice bonus (since I'd do this work for food and a roof since its so fun), and it gives the freedom to do volunteer work locally or internationally if you're interested in such. Also, it gives you the option to spend TIME with patients, listen to them, and really think hard about their cases. Patients will save money on meds, surgical recoup, and disability time, and they can actually get better... so it is well worth it for them.


Anyway- I probably wouldnt have been satisfied with my osteopathic education if i just took what they give in an OMM class- you will need to shadow and study hard outside of class and make great use of your OMM faculty (and ideally learn from the docs who are good enough to run the practices like i mentioned, -only few this good are in academics). Keep in mind they only hand you the very basics in class since there is a decent percentage of students that just arent interested, and most of the simple stuff they show looks like something chiropractor or a PT would do (further turning people off).


Your alternative would be to attend a good MD school and shadow DO's throughout your education. This is not a bad option. I know one Duke student that took a year off after second year to study at NOVA and learn OMM. Unfortunately this makes it difficult to integrate osteopathic philosophy and the mechanics with all the anatomy and physiology you were learning in class (though some DO schools dont integrate well either).

Once you get to residency it gets easier- Harvard has taken some DOs in to help teach their physiatry residents, and a several other top MD residency programs have followed suit. You wont get the hours this way, however- nor the integration that is possible in a DO curriculum if you wait till residency. It takes many countless hours and integrative thinking to get good enough at this stuff to turn around patients with life threatening conditions or complicated chronic pain.

hope this helps,
michael

 

[bones]

Bit of a loaded question here:

I'm in the same situation, trying to decide to go MD or DO and I'm having a tough time.

Can MD's learn OMM post-residency? I realize many DO students just cringed, so let me be more specific. I know DO's spend years and hundreds of hours learning OMM. Can a six or eight week OMM course (if such exists) teach enough basic OMM that would be useful to an MD practice or would it just be a waste of time? In other words, can I have my cake and eat it too?

A 6 or 8 week course could get you the basics that DO's walk away with who dont really apply themselves or shadow. You'd learn how to fix acute muscle spasms or sprained ankles. You might be able to recognize a few common postural syndromes. Your palpatory diagnosis skills will probably take a lot more time, however, since it takes some brain plasticity and remodelling (much like any physical activity) and you cant go from zero to pro (or even competitive) in 6-8 weeks in any sport i know of. You need to be competitive to offer an advantage to patients with musculoskeletal problems, and you need to go pro if you're gonna change lives with osteopathy.

With the basics they give you, however, you may be able to continue to practice and improve. Allong with CME conferences and a lot of dedication- you should be able to develop good osteopathic skills as an MD over a period of years.

 

[bones]

I am obviously bias because I am MD, but I have considered this question myself and have come up with these

Several things to consider:
1. Many DO programs don't offer the same kind of exposures in clinical years and especially residencies as MD programs do. (DO hospitals are generally small)
2. You will have to spend the rest of your life explaining to people what a DO is.
3. Their is a definate bias againt DO's in many medical institutions.
4. OMM is a very very small part of medicine overall.
5. You can always learn OMM on the side.
6. DO school are generally easier to get into and therefore do not attract as strong of colleagues as most MD programs (acedemically)(this obviously depends on the MD program but most would have to agree that the best DO schools are nowhere near as competative as the best MD programs)
7. You cannot practice in all specialities (I'm not exactly sure about this one but am pretty sure Path and Radiation Therapy are MD only- someone else please comment on this)

Major pro's of DO:
1. OMM
2. Osteopathic women are generally better looking 😍
3. Testing is easier. I go to program with shared 1st year classes, MD and DO, and pass grade is lower for DO class. Don't know personally if COMPLEX is easier than USMLE.
4. General public seems to latch onto OMM and many will swear by it giving you an excellent marketing advantage over many MD's.

good post, let me address a few of these points.
CONS:
1) Largely true, though this will depend on the program. More of an issue of the quality of the individual school than the DO profession. Lower tier MD programs have the same problems.
2) only a problem if you care. minor problem, since in the hospital they see the coat and rarely look at the badge, and outpatient they usually dont notice either (and you dont even wear a badge). Usually they only notice if you advertise it, and its a good selling point for your practice.
3) true in some cases. I have seen a lot of variation in this based on the city and the individual. If you're a smart student you can cut through the preconceptions in the first 5 minutes of conversation and its never an issue again.
4) I think this is a common framing issue. People imagine OMM as cracking necks or stretching muscles... but this is hardly what OMM or osteopathy are about. Osteopathic philosophy extends to all areas of medicine and patient care- and osteopathic diagnostic skill is applicable to the vast majority of specialties. Physically altering the system is useful in any context where you work with patients with pain or the potential for improved physical function. Think for a moment how many patients and how many specialties this might apply to...
5) valid, but see my above post. for the motivated MD this is very possible, but it takes years, and wont be integrated with the functional anatomy and physiology you learn in school.
6) valid concern. Again, this is more of a problem for individual schools than the profession as a whole, and non-1st tier MD schools struggle with the same issues.
7) blatantly false. There are DO's in every specialty. It is actually easier to be a DO surgeon than an MD surgeon at the moment, due to DO surgery programs you can apply to in addition to all the same MD ones (and you can apply to allo ones with little or no discrimination in many areas of the country). Now, the DO route may only yield huge advantages in primary care specialties and areas where you work with patients in pain or in need of rehab (PMR, neurology, outpatient anesthesiology, rheum, etc.). Though i could be wrong, I'd expect DO dermatologists, pathologists, radiologists, and non-pain management (surgical) anesthesiologists will probably have some difficulty offering ways in which their osteopathic training has really helped them.

Psychiatry is interesting... the 2 best psychiatrists i've ever met were DO's (and i've shadowed dozens on 3 different psych rotations and most were MD's). Both of these DO's were very holistic, and one of them used his osteopathic training to help visually evaluate his patient during talk therapy (watching how they hold tension and physically respond to questions). He used a very comprehensive approach to patients, emphasizing nutrition and exercise as well as talk therapy and medication. His palpatory skills were tremendous, even though he didn't put his hands on his patients... perhaps because he was thinking with that part of his brain every day. His patients got better fast, as did the patients of the other DO. I could see hope in their eyes from the very first visit, and some real determination to work hard on their treatment plans (a surprisingly high number were able to maintain regular exercise and moderate dietary changes). The difference between these practices and the others where pills were thrown at patients and they were shoo'd out the door was quite dramatic.

as for the pros:
1) osteopathic philosophy>>OMM, but OMM is a huge plus as well, and components of it are widely applicable.
2) depends on the school... of course 😳
3) depends on the school. KCOM has the policy of making their tests quite hard, and then you have the choice of doing well or failing out. many fail out.
4) makes the cash practice possible (cheers for getting paid what you charge and when you charge it instead of negotiating for every penny). You can give patients reimbursement if and when the insurance companies pay up- for as much as they pay. A sliding scale for the poor without insurance makes things fair (and doesnt hurt your business when you have many people paying the full amount). 4) also explains how so many DO's can fill their practices from scratch in only a couple of months.


in all, i mostly agree... but on my list the pros outweighed the cons during my application- and still do now in retrospect. For those not very interested in holistic medicine, osteopathic philosophy and OMM however, the scale really tips the other way.

One of these days we need to put together a tier 1 DO school with an integrated PhD program that rivals the best of the MD medical schools for research, quality and quantity of faculty (clinical and basic science) as well as integration between departments. Add the best Osteopathic faculty in the country and integrate philosophy and OMM with basic sciences. Its possible...

 

[nrddct]

whoah, good post bones. Thanks.

 

[me454555]

A few things to add to you pre DO students from one going through it right now.

Its pretty much a false statement to say that DO student have an "easier match" b/c we can apply to osteo spots as well. The fact remains that the specialties that are the most competitive have serious competition in the osteopathic world as well. With the increasing amount of DO grads (due to increase in DO schools) and the lack of increase of osteo residency postions, these spots are getting even tougher to get.

On top of that, there really arent THAT many spots in the competitive osteo residencies. Since the residencies are in smaller hosptials, there tend to be only 3 or 4 slots per program where as a lot of the allo programs have 15 or 20. They also have more applicants but I don't think its preportionate and osteo progs are more competitive I think.

Another factor to take into consideration is the DO descrimination that occurs at certain allo programs. Its not supposed to happen but it does. Its sad that some of our allo bretherns still feel this way but its a fact of life that we have to deal with.

The end result of all this is that you may have access to an extra 30 spots via osteo match but you might be sacrificing 2 or 3 times that in allo spots. This is just something to consider before going the DO route.

One last point to make. Since the osteo match occurs before the allo match, you have to make a decision. If you have a DO program that you feel is your 3rd choice and you match there, you will be withdrawn from the allo match and not get the chance to see if you could match at your top 2. The flipside to this is that if you decide to forgo the osteo match, your giving up some of those extra spots that people are talking about.

 

[OSUdoc08]

A few things to add to you pre DO students from one going through it right now.

Its pretty much a false statement to say that DO student have an "easier match" b/c we can apply to osteo spots as well. The fact remains that the specialties that are the most competitive have serious competition in the osteopathic world as well. With the increasing amount of DO grads (due to increase in DO schools) and the lack of increase of osteo residency postions, these spots are getting even tougher to get.

On top of that, there really arent THAT many spots in the competitive osteo residencies. Since the residencies are in smaller hosptials, there tend to be only 3 or 4 slots per program where as a lot of the allo programs have 15 or 20. They also have more applicants but I don't think its preportionate and osteo progs are more competitive I think.

Another factor to take into consideration is the DO descrimination that occurs at certain allo programs. Its not supposed to happen but it does. Its sad that some of our allo bretherns still feel this way but its a fact of life that we have to deal with.

The end result of all this is that you may have access to an extra 30 spots via osteo match but you might be sacrificing 2 or 3 times that in allo spots. This is just something to consider before going the DO route.

One last point to make. Since the osteo match occurs before the allo match, you have to make a decision. If you have a DO program that you feel is your 3rd choice and you match there, you will be withdrawn from the allo match and not get the chance to see if you could match at your top 2. The flipside to this is that if you decide to forgo the osteo match, your giving up some of those extra spots that people are talking about.

This depends on what specialty you are interested in.

If you want to go into EM, IM, FP, or Peds, then it's much easier to be a DO, since so many more spots are available to you.

 

[carn311]

A few things to add to you pre DO students from one going through it right now.

Its pretty much a false statement to say that DO student have an "easier match" b/c we can apply to osteo spots as well. The fact remains that the specialties that are the most competitive have serious competition in the osteopathic world as well. With the increasing amount of DO grads (due to increase in DO schools) and the lack of increase of osteo residency postions, these spots are getting even tougher to get.

On top of that, there really arent THAT many spots in the competitive osteo residencies. Since the residencies are in smaller hosptials, there tend to be only 3 or 4 slots per program where as a lot of the allo programs have 15 or 20. They also have more applicants but I don't think its preportionate and osteo progs are more competitive I think.

Another factor to take into consideration is the DO descrimination that occurs at certain allo programs. Its not supposed to happen but it does. Its sad that some of our allo bretherns still feel this way but its a fact of life that we have to deal with.

The end result of all this is that you may have access to an extra 30 spots via osteo match but you might be sacrificing 2 or 3 times that in allo spots. This is just something to consider before going the DO route.

One last point to make. Since the osteo match occurs before the allo match, you have to make a decision. If you have a DO program that you feel is your 3rd choice and you match there, you will be withdrawn from the allo match and not get the chance to see if you could match at your top 2. The flipside to this is that if you decide to forgo the osteo match, your giving up some of those extra spots that people are talking about.

I dont understand why the AOA doesnt support a combined match...

Are there anyother ways in which they do not act in the best interest of students that we premeds should be aware of?

 

[carn311]

This depends on what specialty you are interested in.

If you want to go into EM, IM, FP, or Peds, then it's much easier to be a DO, since so many more spots are available to you.

Really? Are there more spots in EM for DO's nation wide or just in your part of the country?

 

[OSUdoc08]

I dont understand why the AOA doesnt support a combined match...

Are there anyother ways in which they do not act in the best interest of students that we premeds should be aware of?

This question is easily answered.

If the match was combined, then everyone would rank ACGME residencies at the top, and only use AOA as a backup. This is especially true because many programs require an extra year of training (internship year) with the AOA.

As a result, most of the AOA programs will not fill. Those that do will be filled with undesirable applicants that couldn't get accepted to any ACGME programs.

 

[carn311]

This question is easily answered.

If the match was combined, then everyone would rank ACGME residencies at the top, and only use AOA as a backup. This is especially true because many programs require an extra year of training (internship year) with the AOA.

As a result, most of the AOA programs will not fill. Those that do will be filled with undesirable applicants that couldn't get accepted to any ACGME programs.

Oh, I had heard Osteo EM residencies were an extra year I didnt know that most specialties were...

 

[OSUdoc08]

Oh, I had heard Osteo EM residencies were an extra year I didnt know that most specialties were...

Yes, most are.

 

[Taus]

I must be missing something here.... I thought the ONLY way you would have to do an extra year is if you did an MD residency and wanted to practice in one of the 5 states requiring a DO internship year. In any other situation, I'm almost sure there's no extra year...

 

[bones]

I must be missing something here.... I thought the ONLY way you would have to do an extra year is if you did an MD residency and wanted to practice in one of the 5 states requiring a DO internship year. In any other situation, I'm almost sure there's no extra year...

lol I dont know where you guys are getting all this bogus info.

No there is no extra year unless you do an allo program with an attached internship and want to do an osteopathic internship as well (or live in one of those 5 states and want to practice there w/ an allopathic residency). Also, allo specialties without an associated internship year allow for an osteopathic intership up front regardless (such as physiatry/PMR). Very few osteopathic students do an extra year.

If you do an osteopathic residency you do the osteopathic internship with it- no problem. For example, allo FP is 3 years, osteo FP is 1 year internship +2 years PGY2/3 residency. same is true for all other specialties I have thought about applying to. There may be an exception but i havent found it yet. I haven't looked at ER positions so i cant speak about them. (i'll look them up when i get the chance).



Regarding the AOA and the match process, this comes down to politics. I think the statement above about the match is generally true. There are a few excellent osteopathic residency positions, but there are many that are average (and run by DO's with little osteopathic skill, so they are really quite pointless). A decent percent of even very osteopathically oriented students such as my self are inclined to apply to allopathic residencies. We take our osteopathic skills with us, and continue to learn from patients and teach our new colleagues.

The separation of the match only helps the weakest of the DO programs fill, at the expense of the the stronger ones (since strong candidates want more than one or two choices in their chosen specialty, many will just skip the osteopathic match and look at allo programs).


As far as allo residency selection bias, this HAD been an issue about 10 years ago. it has just about completely dissolved (see my above post). The MOST competetive programs in the country VALUE diversity... and a very strong DO with high grades, good evals and good osteopathic skill would be very quickly chosen over just another MD with similar stats in any residency where this would be of value. There is a big pro DO bias in allo PM&R residency positions due to OMM at the moment. I am not aware of anti-DO sentiment in any allo field other than derm, and there are DO-only AOA derm programs (there is one at KCOM).

The only places where you are likely to experience general anti-DO sentiment is in backwater hillbilly hospitals in parts of the country without DO schools. Big city residencies, top tier residencies, and areas with good DO programs have no general bias- though there is always the chance that an individual will hold a grudge (you should apply to several programs on the off chance that one of the directors feels this way). Cleveland clinic, Mayo, U of Washington, and Harvard have wide open doors for DO's who can compete, and welcome DO applicants.