GP Earning Potential

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nir1009

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I have been wondering this for a while:

If General Practitioners in private practice earn about 160-170K/year just by working 35-40 hrs a week (3-4 days), wouldnt they be able to make at least 60-70k more just by working 2-3 days as a salaried dentist for someone or by having 2 offices and working 2-3 days at each?

So if you work 60 hours a week (as much as doctors), couldnt a general practictioner potentially make close to 230-240k just by working harder?
 
nir1009 said:
I have been wondering this for a while:

If General Practitioners in private practice earn about 160-170K/year just by working 35-40 hrs a week (3-4 days), wouldnt they be able to make at least 60-70k more just by working 2-3 days as a salaried dentist for someone or by having 2 offices and working 2-3 days at each?

So if you work 60 hours a week (as much as doctors), couldnt a general practictioner potentially make close to 230-240k just by working harder?


sure...if you work harder in life, you will earn more. Also, you can get associates and get them to work for you.
 
wow I can earn almost as much as a low-paying medical specialist by doing no additional training (residency) as a general dentist. All I have to do is work as much as a doctor.

Being a dentist keeps looking better and better! Having all the perks of a doctor minus the 60-70 hour workweek. 🙂
 
nir1009 said:
I have been wondering this for a while:

If General Practitioners in private practice earn about 160-170K/year just by working 35-40 hrs a week (3-4 days), wouldnt they be able to make at least 60-70k more just by working 2-3 days as a salaried dentist for someone or by having 2 offices and working 2-3 days at each?

So if you work 60 hours a week (as much as doctors), couldnt a general practictioner potentially make close to 230-240k just by working harder?


i have shadowed some well established general dentists in Santa Monica, CA who make MUCH MUCH more then that. They work 9-5 four-five days a week.

the potential is there....you just have to estblish yourself as a good dentist and people will be willing to pay more for your services.
 
nir1009 said:
I have been wondering this for a while:

If General Practitioners in private practice earn about 160-170K/year just by working 35-40 hrs a week (3-4 days), wouldnt they be able to make at least 60-70k more just by working 2-3 days as a salaried dentist for someone or by having 2 offices and working 2-3 days at each?

So if you work 60 hours a week (as much as doctors), couldnt a general practictioner potentially make close to 230-240k just by working harder?

Sure you could work 60 hours/week. But you'll start going cross-eyed from staring at margins and preps during all those hours. I'm upto 52 hours/week right now and I am exhausted at the end of each day. Not to mention the slight back ache from being in the same position for so long - even though you move around, it does start to get to you. There is no time in my day to do anything except commute, fill/clean/pull teeth, eat, shower, and phone/surf net/laundry/clean/watch TV/gym (choose 2).

Needless to say, I will be quitting 22 hours/week very soon.
 
nir1009 said:
I have been wondering this for a while:

If General Practitioners in private practice earn about 160-170K/year just by working 35-40 hrs a week (3-4 days), wouldnt they be able to make at least 60-70k more just by working 2-3 days as a salaried dentist for someone or by having 2 offices and working 2-3 days at each?

So if you work 60 hours a week (as much as doctors), couldnt a general practictioner potentially make close to 230-240k just by working harder?
Some people just choose to enjoy a little more time away from the office, but it takes a strong-willed individual to find the willpower to scrape by on only $175,000 a year.
 
aphistis said:
it takes a strong-willed individual to find the willpower to scrape by on only $175,000 a year.

They're better men than me.
 
drhobie7 said:
They're better men than me.
Me too. I was playing with numbers the other day and came up with some interesting figures...

When I finish residency, I'll be 31. If I invest $80,000/year, in 25 years, those investments will be over $8 million, assuming 10% gains. As I near retirement, I'd transfer a significant portion of the portfolio to conservative investments, which could be expected to pay out roughly 6% per year. Given these numbers, I could retire at age 56, pulling roughly $500K/year from my investments. Obviously, the large majority of this would not be able to be invested in tax-free accounts, so it would be subject to the large capital gains taxes. Unfortunately, I'm not enough of a math person to calculate inflation into the picture, so I have no idea how that would affect it. Anyone that knows more than me see anything that I'm missing?
 
http://ww02.chase.com/financialcalc...ID=20001&WCI=inflation&bNav=False&bTBar=False

Multiple the number ($500,000) times [(100-I)/(100)]^n , where n=number of years from today, and I= assumed inflation rate --- 3.2 would be fair.

Or in other words, assuming 3.2 % inflation every year, multiple 500,000 time 0.968 twenty five times. (years until you are 56) This will be the approximate value in "today's dollars".

Let's see, with 3.2% inflation, $500,000 would be about 220,000 in today's dollars. That is not too shabby.

Of course, the more tax advantage your savings, the closer to true 10% your gains will be.
 
dentalman said:
http://ww02.chase.com/financialcalc...ID=20001&WCI=inflation&bNav=False&bTBar=False

Multiple the number ($500,000) times [(100-I)/(100)]^n , where n=number of years from today, and I= assumed inflation rate --- 3.2 would be fair.

Or in other words, assuming 3.2 % inflation every year, multiple 500,000 time 0.968 twenty five times. (years until you are 56) This will be the approximate value in "today's dollars".

Let's see, with 3.2% inflation, $500,000 would be about 220,000 in today's dollars. That is not too shabby.

Of course, the more tax advantage your savings, the closer to true 10% your gains will be.
Nice work! I figured that there would be someone around here who could work that out...thanks...
 
Just a bit of a warning as I really really don't want to be a party pooper, but some of you guys have REALLY unrealistic salary/income expectations. Working 60 hours a week, while difficult to say the least, will not necessarily guarantee that you will be making $200,000+. Also, working 30-40 hours a week does not allow one to "settle" for the ol' $175,000. It IS hard to pull that kind of money. SEveral dentists, in my own family alone, working in the greater Los Angeles Areas (Santa Monica, San Fernando Valley) are not pulling that kind of money. One owns his own practice and the other is still an associate but each one has difficulty pulling in $120,000-140,000 (after taxes) due to the extremely stiff competition.

So while its a nice thought to imagine making as much as an M.D., lets keep it real. That is, unless the rest of you live in Middle America or Texas, at which point I can say to you "CHA CHA CHINGGGGGGGGG$$$$$$$$$$."
 
Stroszeck said:
Just a bit of a warning as I really really don't want to be a party pooper, but some of you guys have REALLY unrealistic salary/income expectations. Working 60 hours a week, while difficult to say the least, will not necessarily guarantee that you will be making $200,000+. Also, working 30-40 hours a week does not allow one to "settle" for the ol' $175,000. It IS hard to pull that kind of money. SEveral dentists, in my own family alone, working in the greater Los Angeles Areas (Santa Monica, San Fernando Valley) are not pulling that kind of money. One owns his own practice and the other is still an associate but each one has difficulty pulling in $120,000-140,000 (after taxes) due to the extremely stiff competition.

So while its a nice thought to imagine making as much as an M.D., lets keep it real. That is, unless the rest of you live in Middle America or Texas, at which point I can say to you "CHA CHA CHINGGGGGGGGG$$$$$$$$$$."


AFTER TAXES $120,000-$140,000 is damn good money (maybe not in Santa Monica, but for many places), if you said before taxes I would agree that amount would be slightly undercompensated considering the length of schooling and the investment (especially with high debt 200k+)
 
Hardbody said:
AFTER TAXES $120,000-$140,000 is damn good money (maybe not in Santa Monica, but for many places), if you said before taxes I would agree that amount would be slightly undercompensated considering the length of schooling and the investment (especially with high debt 200k+)

My thoughts exactly. That means they're making $200,000-230,000 pre-taxes, which puts them a little bit below the 50th percentile of general dentists in a large city (according to the survey in Dental Economics a month or two ago). They're earning an average income for a general dentist. This is a good point though. It takes a special kind of dentist to make $400-500K per year. Not everyone can do that. Obviously most will never come close to that amount.
 
Stroszeck said:
So while its a nice thought to imagine making as much as an M.D., lets keep it real. That is, unless the rest of you live in Middle America or Texas, at which point I can say to you "CHA CHA CHINGGGGGGGGG$$$$$$$$$$."

You should look up some physician salaries..... most are not pulling 120-140K after taxes, many are lucky to make that pre-tax.
 
My father has been practicing as a GP in Orlando for more than 40 years. He has consistently made 300,000+ for the past ten years working less than 40hrs.

He is a great dentist, but his success is based on mailings that generate new patients ALWAYS. He also strives to always have the latest technology. Cerec, hard and soft tissue lasers, digital x-rays, zoom, ect.

I guess what I am saying is that he spends a lot of time and money REINVESTING in his practice. By doing this he has generated and wowed patients and cutting costs SIGNIFICANTLY and turnover time by using the CEREC and his new gadgets.
-C
 
SuperC said:
My father has been practicing as a GP in Orlando for more than 40 years. He has consistently made 300,000+ for the past ten years working less than 40hrs.

He is a great dentist, but his success is based on mailings that generate new patients ALWAYS. He also strives to always have the latest technology. Cerec, hard and soft tissue lasers, digital x-rays, zoom, ect.

I guess what I am saying is that he spends a lot of time and money REINVESTING in his practice. By doing this he has generated and wowed patients and cutting costs SIGNIFICANTLY and turnover time by using the CEREC and his new gadgets.
-C


C,

Thanks for the info. Sounds like you will have a nice practice to join after you finish school. I can't wait to finish school and start utilizing digital radiographs, cerec, practice management software and other newer technologies. Good luck at UF!
-KTC
 
My work week for you.

3.5 days which is 29 hours of office time, which with some double booking here and there equals 40 hours of scheduled patient time a week give or take a few hours. I work Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday 8-5 (lunch from 1-2) and Friday from 8 to 1 (Ocassionally I'll see a patient Friday afternoon if I need a couple of hours to get someone in for a big case and I don't want to be disturbed by my hygenists). My weekends are from Friday 1PM until Tuesday at 8AM. Roughly 20 Monday afternoons a year I teach at UCONN Dental school, and roughly 8 Wednesdays and 1 or 2 Fridays a year I take off for Continuing Education courses. Throw in 3 to 4 full weeks of vacation a year and a few assorted holidays that we close the office, and there's my schedule.

When I'm in the office, I work hard, and frankly at the end of a day I'm often mentally "fried" from having been on the go all day, which sometimes makes coming home an being "daddy" for a few hours before my kids goto bed a bit challenging, although very rewarding. After a year or 2 in the same practice as you get to know your patients, and patients get to know(and trust/respect you), you can quite easily turn out some big time production numbers. But, at first you will see a bit of occassional skepticism as a young dentist when you propose that big crown and bridge/implant case to a patient, but what often happens in your first year or so of working in a practice is the "seeds" you plant for a big cases(often the esthetic elective cases), will start being done in years 2,3,4 etc, and thats when you'll see the big production numbers.

Where you practice also makes a difference, in general, a rural location = less competition = more patients = higher production numbers even with lower fees. Bigger areas = more competition = more marketing needed = less initial production, although often more "big" cases be done.

Either way, after a few years of practice, very few dentists tend to work more than 35-40 hours, because you start to realize often that when you make a very good living working less with more free time/family time is better than making a very, very good living working more with less free time/family time. The shifting point in decreasing your hours worked/week is often in conjunction with kids arriving in one's family, sounds like a pathetic Hallmark card or something, but just about anyone with kid(s) will know what I'm saying.
 
DrJeff said:
My work week for you.

3.5 days which is 29 hours of office time, which with some double booking here and there equals 40 hours of scheduled patient time a week give or take a few hours. I work Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday 8-5 (lunch from 1-2) and Friday from 8 to 1 (Ocassionally I'll see a patient Friday afternoon if I need a couple of hours to get someone in for a big case and I don't want to be disturbed by my hygenists). My weekends are from Friday 1PM until Tuesday at 8AM. Roughly 20 Monday afternoons a year I teach at UCONN Dental school, and roughly 8 Wednesdays and 1 or 2 Fridays a year I take off for Continuing Education courses. Throw in 3 to 4 full weeks of vacation a year and a few assorted holidays that we close the office, and there's my schedule.

When I'm in the office, I work hard, and frankly at the end of a day I'm often mentally "fried" from having been on the go all day, which sometimes makes coming home an being "daddy" for a few hours before my kids goto bed a bit challenging, although very rewarding. After a year or 2 in the same practice as you get to know your patients, and patients get to know(and trust/respect you), you can quite easily turn out some big time production numbers. But, at first you will see a bit of occassional skepticism as a young dentist when you propose that big crown and bridge/implant case to a patient, but what often happens in your first year or so of working in a practice is the "seeds" you plant for a big cases(often the esthetic elective cases), will start being done in years 2,3,4 etc, and thats when you'll see the big production numbers.

Where you practice also makes a difference, in general, a rural location = less competition = more patients = higher production numbers even with lower fees. Bigger areas = more competition = more marketing needed = less initial production, although often more "big" cases be done.

Either way, after a few years of practice, very few dentists tend to work more than 35-40 hours, because you start to realize often that when you make a very good living working less with more free time/family time is better than making a very, very good living working more with less free time/family time. The shifting point in decreasing your hours worked/week is often in conjunction with kids arriving in one's family, sounds like a pathetic Hallmark card or something, but just about anyone with kid(s) will know what I'm saying.


Dr. Jeff,

Do you have any suggestions for how to deal with the skepticism we may get as new, younger looking dentists proposing a crown, implant, or other treatment that requires a considerable financial investment?

I have been told by a few dentists that I shadowed in terms of building rapport with patients that if you recommend a conservative restoration and the patient chooses to do nothing and it later blows up into a crown situation... if you have it well-doccumented, you can say, "well I recommended we do a restoration on X date"... This might make them trust you next time around...

Any other suggestions? TIA
 
ktcook83 said:
Dr. Jeff,

Do you have any suggestions for how to deal with the skepticism we may get as new, younger looking dentists proposing a crown, implant, or other treatment that requires a considerable financial investment?

I have been told by a few dentists that I shadowed in terms of building rapport with patients that if you recommend a conservative restoration and the patient chooses to do nothing and it later blows up into a crown situation... if you have it well-doccumented, you can say, "well I recommended we do a restoration on X date"... This might make them trust you next time around...

Any other suggestions? TIA

I'm no Dr. Jeff, but I'll throw my hat in the ring. I worked as a stock broker for a wall street firm. My job was to pitch investments to buyers--sophisticated and unsophisticated. Being young and having a really short track record made it difficult to earn people's trust right away. Instead of moving a million dollars over to me, they'd start me out with $10,000. After I showed them some results, they'd move more money to me.

Being a young dentist is going to be the same. Let's face it, respect and trust are (and should be) earned. I think acknowledging upfront that your patient is going to have some reservations about you because of your inexperience and youthfulness will make it easier for you to understand why they are hesitant to go for that big 6 unit anterior bridge. You'll get less frustrated and you'll take the necessary steps to get them to the point of trusting you sooner than if you try to push the issue.

On a side note, I've heard that gray hair does a lot to earn patient rapport. Maybe a few young, enterprising dentists could try this out!
 
JavadiCavity said:
I worked as a stock broker for a wall street firm. My job was to pitch investments to buyers--sophisticated and unsophisticated. Being young and having a really short track record made it difficult to earn people's trust right away. Instead of moving a million dollars over to me, they'd start me out with $10,000. After I showed them some results, they'd move more money to me.
Was that YOU in BoilerRoom???
 
OMFSCardsFan said:
Was that YOU in BoilerRoom???


Sweet movie...




Does baldness work the same as the gray hair effect...? 😉
 
nir1009 said:
I have been wondering this for a while:

If General Practitioners in private practice earn about 160-170K/year just by working 35-40 hrs a week (3-4 days), wouldnt they be able to make at least 60-70k more just by working 2-3 days as a salaried dentist for someone or by having 2 offices and working 2-3 days at each?

So if you work 60 hours a week (as much as doctors), couldnt a general practictioner potentially make close to 230-240k just by working harder?

If you have an established ffs practice that is 5 years or older you should be clearing 200k no problem. Practices older than that can probably do 300 or more. This is probably for a small fee for service practice with about 3-4 chairs with one general dentist and maybe a part-time hygienist. As practices grow and start adding associates and more hygienists and more chairs the practice can reach the 1 mil mark. Obviously this depends on a lot of things though like location, patient base, staffing, doctor ability, etc.

To make more money you're not going to work 60 hours (your body will hate you eventually - back, wrist, neck, etc). Instead, you'll become a bit of a businessman and have people make money for you.

There was a recent article out in Dental Economics and they estimated that the average associate was pulling in roughly 130-140k/yr. Straight out of school you can be anywhere from 60k to 100k+ depending on where you start off. Six figures is very realistic after the first or especially the 2nd year though.
 
ktcook83 said:
Dr. Jeff,

Do you have any suggestions for how to deal with the skepticism we may get as new, younger looking dentists proposing a crown, implant, or other treatment that requires a considerable financial investment?

I have been told by a few dentists that I shadowed in terms of building rapport with patients that if you recommend a conservative restoration and the patient chooses to do nothing and it later blows up into a crown situation... if you have it well-doccumented, you can say, "well I recommended we do a restoration on X date"... This might make them trust you next time around...

Any other suggestions? TIA

It's often just a matter of doing what's right, but being conservative at the same time. I.E. if the tooth needs endo/build up/crown, what you might do is the endo/build up now, and explain to the patient that the build up is basically a "long term" temporary that will tide them over for a year or 2. All the while you're explaining why we crown endo teeth to reduce the risk of a traumatic, unrestorable fracture. Generally though after a couple of visits with you, as long as your not an a$$ h*&^ to them, and do some good, solid work, the trust builds and you have a solid, lifetime patient. This philosophy in one sense or another applies to many new patients that you'll see, where trust and respect goes a long way.

Case in point, at my practice where I've been here now for almost 5 years, I'll still see a patient or two of my partners when he's out of the office at meetings, etc, and the patient will say "oh, you're the new guy!" 🙄
 
Getting patients to do crowns after endo on posterior teeth or on teeth with broken cusps isn't a challenge since it's required in these cases. Sure you could do a huge filling or a nice buildup but 9 times out of 10 they won't last. I've seen so many patients who come back 1-2 years later who just did the buildup and now the tooth is fractured significantly below the gingival margin or an endo retreat is in order.

Getting patients to do crowns on teeth with extremely large failing fillings or on extremely "patched up" teeth or on teeth with compromised cusp integrity is another thing. Unless something goes wrong with these teeth (i.e. cusp fracture, endo, etc.) they usually won't go for a $500 "preventative" crown (not to mention the $ for a buildup). It depends on a lot of things though and not strictly on how you present treatment or educate your patient.
 
Stroszeck said:
One owns his own practice and the other is still an associate but each one has difficulty pulling in $120,000-140,000 (after taxes) due to the extremely stiff competition.

That's about $200,000 pre-tax, which is in-line with what the others were quoting.
 
WOW! My bad, I haven't checked SDN in a while. It was actually $120 or $140,000 BEFORE TAXES, not after. So, yes, to these people working in Los angeles area that is a low figure due to the high cost of living. Hope that clears up the apparent confusion/anger that my post seems to have induced in some people.
 
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