Graduate degree input?

[ArmyPilot]

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All,

Bottom line: Im a non trad "old guy" waiting to finish my time in the military to pursue denistry. I have a BS in engineering and am looking to earn a masters in the following semester to prove to Dental Schools that I am still an academic (as advised by several dental school admissions people I have talked to). My options:

MS in Environmental Engineering

MS in Engineering Management

Whats the general idea on how D schools view the masters degree that a person earns? Engineering management is more of an art , and environmental engineering is straight up engineering (its a specialty in civil engineering).

Do they even care? I imagine they would as if someone earn low scores in undergrad, earning a masters degree with high scores in sociology or some other art wouldnt strengthen their application at all.

Any input is much appreciated!
Thanks!
Army Pilot

 

[two thirty]

I'd try my best to find something biology/science related. Are your pre-reqs done? If not, you'll need to do a post bac to get that taken care of.

 

[ArmyPilot]

I'd try my best to find something biology/science related. Are your pre-reqs done? If not, you'll need to do a post bac to get that taken care of.

Thanks for the reply Two Thirty. Those are my only options unfortunately - I figured the Environmental Engineering would be the better route has a lot of biology/chemistry application.

I completed my pre-reqs - might end up doing a post bach anyway if they give me flack for being an older applicant (took chem 10 years ago almost - but a solid DAT CHEM score will hopefully crush any concerns over my chemistry knowledge)

 

[camshaft]

Mind if we ask why those are your only two options? I'm in a masters now and have been accepted to dental school, so I may be able to offer some input, but I can't say anything about either of those specifically.

 

[ArmyPilot]

Mind if we ask why those are your only two options? I'm in a masters now and have been accepted to dental school, so I may be able to offer some input, but I can't say anything about either of those specifically.

Hi Camshaft! Congrats on being accepted into a D school!

The reason why I am stuck with those two options are because those are the only two that are available to me in the Army program I am in. Im a helicopter pilot for the army and I was incredibly blessed to be selected for this specialty program that allows me to get a masters degree early in my officer professional development time line. I jumped all over this program bc as a non-trad I knew that in order to strengthen my application to D school it is better to have a masters degree. The only catch to this program is that if I accepted it, the army pretty much narrows down my options.

 

[lkdeidaho]

Make sure that the schools you apply to will accept your pre-reqs from that long ago. A lot of the schools I applied to wont accept any classes that are more than 5 years old. I have heard of people getting screwed out of a spot, after getting accepted, because the school realized that the pre-req class fell outside of the 5 year window.
As far as the degree goes, I would go after one that has more science in it. Just my opinion though...

 

[Kahr]

Personally I'd decide based on the possibility you don't go to dental school. This way you can use it in some way toward an alternate career. I also think you should decide based on which is more appealing to you, you'll do better with the classes, and it won't feel as much like an ordeal.

 

[ArmyPilot]

Make sure that the schools you apply to will accept your pre-reqs from that long ago. A lot of the schools I applied to wont accept any classes that are more than 5 years old. I have heard of people getting screwed out of a spot, after getting accepted, because the school realized that the pre-req class fell outside of the 5 year window.
As far as the degree goes, I would go after one that has more science in it. Just my opinion though...

WHOA that is highly alarming bc I was under the impression that most schools didnt care how long ago you took the pre-reqs!!! I am pretty sure that USC, Western, Tufts, and UNLV all said they didnt care...

 

[camshaft]

Personally I'd decide based on the possibility you don't go to dental school. This way you can use it in some way toward an alternate career. I also think you should decide based on which is more appealing to you, you'll do better with the classes, and it won't feel as much like an ordeal.

I think I'd agree with Kahr here. Or you can try emailing a couple schools with the same explanation and see if you get any responses. As lkdeidaho said, I'd also make sure your prereqs aren't out of date. And did you do well in the prereqs? If your grades weren't good in them, then doing a masters that doesn't really address the same material may not be as much help as just retaking prereqs.

 

[ArmyPilot]

I think I'd agree with Kahr here. Or you can try emailing a couple schools with the same explanation and see if you get any responses. As lkdeidaho said, I'd also make sure your prereqs aren't out of date. And did you do well in the prereqs? If your grades weren't good in them, then doing a masters that doesn't really address the same material may not be as much help as just retaking prereqs.

I was pretty solid in my pre-rews and all my grades for that matter...my packet WAS pretty strong untli this possibility of my pre-reqs being old. I thought only a few schools did that pre-req age thing.

 

[quillow]

I'm not sure if you need to worry about the age of your pre-reqs. Some of my oldest pre-reqs were from about 10 years ago too. I still got accepted... though now I'm worried about my acceptance being withdrawn. (I kinda doubt that that will happen though.) I know there are a few schools that explicitly say on their website that they want pre-reqs within the last five years, but I'm pretty sure USC and Penn don't care (among others). If you're really worried about that, talk to the individual schools. But if you ace the DAT, I think it should be okay (that's what I did).

As for which masters program, I agree with Kahr -- choose the one you think would help you the most if you don't get into dental school (though I'm pretty sure you'll get in). Personally, I would be leaning toward the Engineering Management. Dentistry is a very people-based career (patients, staff, etc) and having management/sociology experience would be beneficial (in my opinion). You've already shown that you can rock the hard sciences anyway (especially if you ace the DAT). If I were you, the only reason why I'd do Environmental Engineering is if you're really interested in that. But that's just my opinion based on my limited knowledge. I don't think you can go wrong with either degree though.

 

[quillow]

On the other hand, my brother did an MBA-type program (it was called something else because it was also an engineering management type masters degree). He said it was kinda stupid (mostly because it was common sense stuff -- but he's a pretty smart guy anyway). He only did it to increase his chances of moving up and getting promoted.

 

[dentalWorks]

All,

Bottom line: Im a non trad "old guy" waiting to finish my time in the military to pursue denistry. I have a BS in engineering and am looking to earn a masters in the following semester to prove to Dental Schools that I am still an academic (as advised by several dental school admissions people I have talked to). My options:

MS in Environmental Engineering

MS in Engineering Management

Whats the general idea on how D schools view the masters degree that a person earns? Engineering management is more of an art , and environmental engineering is straight up engineering (its a specialty in civil engineering).

Do they even care? I imagine they would as if someone earn low scores in undergrad, earning a masters degree with high scores in sociology or some other art wouldnt strengthen their application at all.

Any input is much appreciated!
Thanks!
Army Pilot

In general, dental schools like to see students who are both motivated toward this profession AND are smart/good enough to handle the heavy biology curriculum dental schools throw at you.

I don't believe doing a masters in a non-biology related field is going to help your chances. Your not giving them enough grounds to judge how much you can handle the biological sciences.

There is another thing, again, generally speaking, dental schools like to see applicants with strong undergrad numbers... They seem to value these a little more so than masters (With the rare exception to SMP - special master programs). When you complete a masters program (any type of masters) and apply through AADSAS.... AADSAS will split your GPA into 2 categories, 1 for your undergrad years, and the 2nd for your masters.... Unfortuantly, I believe there is a strong chance that students with low undergrad GPA (bellow 3.0) will struggle to land interviews irrespective of how well they did in their masters (again, with the exception of SMP)

If you want to build a strong application, we can give you advice, mostly post-bacc advice. But first, tell us about your current stats. Whats your overall GPA? science GPA? How many pre-dental classes have you taken so far?

 

[jmt1984]

Personally I'd decide based on the possibility you don't go to dental school. This way you can use it in some way toward an alternate career.

I think this is good advice, speaking from personal experience, I'm glad I thought of this type of thing several years ago before I embarked on getting a Master's degree. I have been able to work in a research setting while waiting on dental school.

 

[ArmyPilot]

Quillow - thanks for always lookin out and giving your input!

Dental Works:
As requested, my stats are as follows:
OGPA: 3.7
SGPA: 4.0
Degree: BS in industrial engineering from a very respected school
Pre-reqs: complete; took two classes I was missing via correspondence as approved by the dental schools I called
DAT: to be determined

One of the replies stated that Dentistry is a management/people skills focused field - I think I have already proven management/people skills with being an army officer for the last 6 years...so that pushes me more to the environmental engineering path.

Believe me, I would love to take a biology based masters, but that unfortunately is not an option for me.

In general, dental schools like to see students who are both motivated toward this profession AND are smart/good enough to handle the heavy biology curriculum dental schools throw at you.

I don't believe doing a masters in a non-biology related field is going to help your chances. Your not giving them enough grounds to judge how much you can handle the biological sciences.

There is another thing, again, generally speaking, dental schools like to see applicants with strong undergrad numbers... They seem to value these a little more so than masters (With the rare exception to SMP - special master programs). When you complete a masters program (any type of masters) and apply through AADSAS.... AADSAS will split your GPA into 2 categories, 1 for your undergrad years, and the 2nd for your masters.... Unfortuantly, I believe there is a strong chance that students with low undergrad GPA (bellow 3.0) will struggle to land interviews irrespective of how well they did in their masters (again, with the exception of SMP)

If you want to build a strong application, we can give you advice, mostly post-bacc advice. But first, tell us about your current stats. Whats your overall GPA? science GPA? How many pre-dental classes have you taken so far?

 

[ArmyPilot]

I don't believe doing a masters in a non-biology related field is going to help your chances. Your not giving them enough grounds to judge how much you can handle the biological sciences.

Wont performing well in a hardcore engineering program prove academic ability? Not to harp on the biology majors out there, but I imagine engineering is a bit harder than bio.

 

[jmt1984]

Wont performing well in a hardcore engineering program prove academic ability? Not to harp on the biology majors out there, but I imagine engineering is a bit harder than bio.

I think that it would be pretty dependent on the program, but since math isn't my strong suit, I would say the engineering would be harder. The engineering master's might set you up better for an alternate career, you can end up a career tech even with a Master's degree in biology.

 

[dentalWorks]

Quillow - thanks for always lookin out and giving your input!

Dental Works:
As requested, my stats are as follows:
OGPA: 3.7
SGPA: 4.0
Degree: BS in industrial engineering from a very respected school
Pre-reqs: complete; took two classes I was missing via correspondence as approved by the dental schools I called
DAT: to be determined

One of the replies stated that Dentistry is a management/people skills focused field - I think I have already proven management/people skills with being an army officer for the last 6 years...so that pushes me more to the environmental engineering path.

Believe me, I would love to take a biology based masters, but that unfortunately is not an option for me.

Yeh with those stats, you don't need masters nor post-bacc. However, I will still recommend you do "some" upper level biology stuff as post-bacc, just to show that your are still involved with school and to give you a heads up.

I would highly encourage you to take some of the following in your post-bacc: Biochem 1, Microbiology, Physiology, histology, gross anatomy.

Again, I don't believe you NEED the post-bacc, but, you already have your pre-reqs done (and you've done amazing), just add a couple of upper level stuffs and ur golden my friend.

I wouldn't waste my time (or money) on ANY type of masters, you simply don't need it

Wont performing well in a hardcore engineering program prove academic ability? Not to harp on the biology majors out there, but I imagine engineering is a bit harder than bio.

I am not debating weather engineering is harder than pre-med/dent, but the type of classes you take as a biology student require a "different" type of studying habits than an engineering type course.

I was a computer science major (with minors in math) from 10 years ago, so I have done my share of "hard" engineering courses (lower level digital logic / circuit design / and all kinds of advanced math classes)... I can tell you right now, with engineering, the material is hard to grasp at first, but once you get the hang of it, you are done, there isn't much to go home to and study all night. Most times, you understand a concept (sometimes its a hard concept) and you apply it to projects and/or practical lab examinations.

On the other hand, with biology, its different, you see, we understand biology perfectly fine, even when we are sitting in the lecture, the stuff (most of it) makes sense, the difficulties comes into play when you need to recall ALL that information come test time. Thats why with biology, you use up alot of time studying out side of the classroom, to remind yourself of all the details (sometimes very small details ~ the ones that randomly show up on multiple-choice exams)

 

[ArmyPilot]

I would highly encourage you to take some of the following in your post-bacc: Biochem 1, Microbiology, Physiology, histology, gross anatomy.

Again, I don't believe you NEED the post-bacc, but, you already have your pre-reqs done (and you've done amazing), just add a couple of upper level stuffs and ur golden my friend.

I wouldn't waste my time (or money) on ANY type of masters, you simply don't need it

Dentalworks

Thanks so much for your input - I really appreciate it. I know you have been a dominant advisor on this forum for a long time.

About the MS programs before me - I have no choice in the matter...I was sent to this program by Army specifically to get a masters. I accepted the program bc I thought it would help bolster my d-school applications.

I see your point with the Bio versus Engineering mind set...but I hope they will see that I am academically capable after all that Ive trecked through.

Alas, I just called some dental schools and they had mixed opinions...after implying to me that I was fighting an uphill battle, they said "just apply and see what happens..." yea...cuz I got thousands of dollars just sittin around just to get a rejection. I wish they would tell me straight up if I am on target or not cuz really, Id do whatever they wanted step by step by the numbers.

 

[Maygyver]

I definitely think doing an MS in engineering is respectable. It's not like you are doing an MS in a totally non-science field that would be a cake walk.

I would have to agree with the previous posters: pick a degree base on what you would enjoy doing the most. Worst case scenario is that you don't get in and have to do something you hate, just because you thought it would get you a leg up. (Your stats look good, but just purely hypothetical).

And also, as DW said, you really don't need a masters, but if the army is paying for it, education can never hurt (as long as you don't completely slack off and do horribly). Extra education will help give you something else to talk about, and bring more diversity to the school.

Good luck!

 

[ArmyPilot]

Thanks Maygyver - I appreciate it.

I am rather confused now bc I just called up some D schools and, well, they didnt seem to care too much about the whole masters thing. One of em told me that I should just do a post bach to get more upper division bio classes uner my belt in order to be more competitive.

This is so odd hearing this because I have known people to be business majors in undergrad who did a post bach and just completed the bare basics for the pre-reqs and have gotten in.

Furthermore... they told me I didnt have to be a biology major to get into D school - that doesnt make sense as the only way to access the upper division courses they want is if you are in the major (at least from my experience)

I definitely think doing an MS in engineering is respectable. It's not like you are doing an MS in a totally non-science field that would be a cake walk.

I would have to agree with the previous posters: pick a degree base on what you would enjoy doing the most. Worst case scenario is that you don't get in and have to do something you hate, just because you thought it would get you a leg up. (Your stats look good, but just purely hypothetical).

And also, as DW said, you really don't need a masters, but if the army is paying for it, education can never hurt (as long as you don't completely slack off and do horribly). Extra education will help give you something else to talk about, and bring more diversity to the school.

Good luck!

 

[Maygyver]

Thanks Maygyver - I appreciate it.

I am rather confused now bc I just called up some D schools and, well, they didnt seem to care too much about the whole masters thing. One of em told me that I should just do a post bach to get more upper division bio classes uner my belt in order to be more competitive.

This is so odd hearing this because I have known people to be business majors in undergrad who did a post bach and just completed the bare basics for the pre-reqs and have gotten in.

Furthermore... they told me I didnt have to be a biology major to get into D school - that doesnt make sense as the only way to access the upper division courses they want is if you are in the major (at least from my experience)

You're correct about not needing to be a biology major. I think honestly, if you had applied right out of college, it seems like you might have gotten it. But, since you've waited, the best thing to show your ability to still understand biological classes is to take upper level courses. People do get in without certain upper levels, but doing them makes you look even more competitive and gives you a leg up.

 

[dentalWorks]

Dentalworks

Thanks so much for your input - I really appreciate it. I know you have been a dominant advisor on this forum for a long time.

About the MS programs before me - I have no choice in the matter...I was sent to this program by Army specifically to get a masters. I accepted the program bc I thought it would help bolster my d-school applications.

I see your point with the Bio versus Engineering mind set...but I hope they will see that I am academically capable after all that Ive trecked through.

Alas, I just called some dental schools and they had mixed opinions...after implying to me that I was fighting an uphill battle, they said "just apply and see what happens..." yea...cuz I got thousands of dollars just sittin around just to get a rejection. I wish they would tell me straight up if I am on target or not cuz really, Id do whatever they wanted step by step by the numbers.

Wait... Have you started this masters program yet? If you haven't, are you able to... refuse it?

I underestand theyr paying for it and all, but, that masters program is going to cost you 1-2 years.

If you are able to reject this masters, you can go a head and prepare for the DAT (starting NOW), take it by June and apply in the same time. You can do your informal post-bacc during the Fall and Spring semesters while you wait for interviews.

And if you REALLY wanna play it safe and almost guarantee your shot of getting in (I know I shouldn't use the word "guarantee").... You can spend the next 1 year doing post-bacc and DAT preparation, and apply first thing in June of 2012.

I am rather confused now bc I just called up some D schools and, well, they didnt seem to care too much about the whole masters thing. One of em told me that I should just do a post bach to get more upper division bio classes uner my belt in order to be more competitive.

Gee, this sounds like something someone around here recommended earlier 😀

This is so odd hearing this because I have known people to be business majors in undergrad who did a post bach and just completed the bare basics for the pre-reqs and have gotten in.

Furthermore... they told me I didnt have to be a biology major to get into D school - that doesnt make sense as the only way to access the upper division courses they want is if you are in the major (at least from my experience)

This is correct. Dental schools care that you do your pre-dental classes (and do well in them).... What major you do is irrelevent. In my upper level biology classes, I've had students (mostly pre-meds) to a few English or even your classical engineering majors.

One of my classmates in Histology was an electric engineer major. He wasn't sure if engineering is something he can do, so he wanted to have his pre-med basis covered.

 

[ArmyPilot]

Refuse it? Well, I COULD refuse it, but, that would result me being on the first boat to Afghanistan (I JUST got out of Iraq, and after that lovely experience Id prefer to avoid another all expenses paid vacation to the middle east). Its either I complete the masters and go to Afghan or...I go to Afghan now. Tough decision ya know 😉

I totally love the idea of getting out and spending a year a post bach program while prepping for my DATs but unfortunately Uncle Sam has a different plans. I will try that out as soon as my contract is up.

Wait... Have you started this masters program yet? If you haven't, are you able to... refuse it?

I underestand theyr paying for it and all, but, that masters program is going to cost you 1-2 years.

If you are able to reject this masters, you can go a head and prepare for the DAT (starting NOW), take it by June and apply in the same time. You can do your informal post-bacc during the Fall and Spring semesters while you wait for interviews.

And if you REALLY wanna play it safe and almost guarantee your shot of getting in (I know I shouldn't use the word "guarantee").... You can spend the next 1 year doing post-bacc and DAT preparation, and apply first thing in June of 2012.

 

[dentalWorks]

Refuse it? Well, I COULD refuse it, but, that would result me being on the first boat to Afghanistan (I JUST got out of Iraq, and after that lovely experience Id prefer to avoid another all expenses paid vacation to the middle east). Its either I complete the masters and go to Afghan or...I go to Afghan now. Tough decision ya know 😉

I totally love the idea of getting out and spending a year a post bach program while prepping for my DATs but unfortunately Uncle Sam has a different plans. I will try that out as soon as my contract is up.

welllllllllllllll... when you put it like that lol.

Good luck on your masters 🙂