graduating attorneys workin' for peanuts

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dragonfly99

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Kudos to your sister.
Yeah, I used to hear that a lot...that a lot of attorneys make 35k-45k. I have an attorney friend who probably makes 40's or 50's...it seems like the big bucks are for the corporate types and/or those who go to the well known law schools, and definitely not for the public sector jobs. I'm actually surprised that the public sector jobs are paying 60k-70k...but I guess it's the big law firms that are paying the salaries (for now) of these junior attorneys to work @these public interest law jobs.
 
Yeah, the elusive famous phat salaries discussed ad nauseum on sdn exist for only a tiny minority of lawyers. The last stats I saw said that the average JD in the US earns $55,000 a year.

Lots of the BigLaw firms (the ones that pay $150,000 to first year associates) have hiring freezes and/or are actively downsizing, since they depend exclusively on large corporations for their fees. Now is not a good time to be graduating from law school, even from a very good one.
 
Good. Eff 'Um. Too many lawyers anyway. Vultures.
 
http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/03/16/lawyer.layoff.public/index.html?iref=mpstoryview

apparently, due to the bad economy many lawyers are being laid off, and many new grads are taking jobs in the public service sector, being paid *gasp* only $60-70k/year.


I pointed this out before on prior threads here at SDN and on my blog. Law School is one of the biggest scams going on in big education in this country. Just as it took a tanking economy to expose the fraud that Bernie Madoff was, the same is happening with law schools. You have boatloads of people coming out of these diploma mills with 150-200K in debt who find themselves lucky IF they can find a 50K paying job. Only a small fraction of law grads land those six figure jobs while droning away behind a desk for 60-80 hrs a week. This reminds me of the story in the book, Freakonomics, where all the gangstas in a particular hood hope to make it big in the drug dealing business while in reality the vast majority make barely above minimum wage. It is the promise of making it big that leads so many to try. But this situation is worse when you have law schools twisting statistics in fancy glossy brochures misrepresenting the true picture.
Check out the following sites and you will see the misery of what it is like living with six figure debt and pathetic job prospects:

www.jdunderground.com

http://temporaryattorney.blogspot.com/

Imagine how next to impossible it would be to pay off your student loans while receiving a resident salary for the rest of your life. This is the very sad situation many of these people now face. I'd rather live free in a Mumbai slum and have no debts than spend the rest of my life paying back such astronomical sums like these people.
I know many of you thinking, "Oh, well that doesn't apply to us since we are in healthcare. We will always have a job and can pay back our loans." True to some degree perhaps. But with socialized healthcare knocking on our front door, prepare yourselves for declining or stagnant reimbursements and more patients to see. Furthermore, tuition continues to spiral upwards with no end in site. Paying back 150K while making only 50K is just as bad as trying to pay back 300-450K on 100-150K a year. Look out...what is currently happening in law is coming our way.
 
medicinesux,
I think it is unlikely to be nearly as bad, just because there are never going to be a bunch of "diploma mill" med schools the way there are with law schools. The AAMC regulates things better than that. And even in socialized medicine countries (most of them at least) physicians make pretty good money (not 200-300k good, though, necessarily). I don't think we're going to have full-on socialized medicine soon in this country, either. People have been talking about it since I was a premed like 15 years ago, and it hasn't happened yet and doesn't seem that close to happening.

I share your concerns about the ridiculous levels of student debt, though...I mean there are a lot of people in undergrad borrowing 50-60k or something, who might be art majors or English majors or something...not sure how they are going to pay that back.
 
medicinesux,
I think it is unlikely to be nearly as bad, just because there are never going to be a bunch of "diploma mill" med schools the way there are with law schools. The AAMC regulates things better than that. And even in socialized medicine countries (most of them at least) physicians make pretty good money (not 200-300k good, though, necessarily). I don't think we're going to have full-on socialized medicine soon in this country, either. People have been talking about it since I was a premed like 15 years ago, and it hasn't happened yet and doesn't seem that close to happening.

I share your concerns about the ridiculous levels of student debt, though...I mean there are a lot of people in undergrad borrowing 50-60k or something, who might be art majors or English majors or something...not sure how they are going to pay that back.

I disagree, we definitely have a supply problem. DO schools are opening up like crazy. The AAMC has no control whatsoever over the explosion of NP doctorate programs opening up. Also, I think you also need to keep in mind that we are living in a country where capitalism has run amok and greed has driven up tuition costs to suffocating levels. Furthermore, in socialized countries young doctors don't have the debt levels we do.
 
I disagree, we definitely have a supply problem. DO schools are opening up like crazy. The AAMC has no control whatsoever over the explosion of NP doctorate programs opening up. Also, I think you also need to keep in mind that we are living in a country where capitalism has run amok and greed has driven up tuition costs to suffocating levels. Furthermore, in socialized countries young doctors don't have the debt levels we do.

Seriously dude? You should follow the advice of your own avatar. The AAMC is calling for upward to a 50% increase in enrollment for allopathic schools (or I guess in your eyes, real doctors, since you just lumped us in with NPs)

Be careful what you wish for. Having lots of hungry lawyers running around is always bad for doctors.

Very true. I just hate lawyers, of all types.
 
Medicine is also infinitely more meritocratic than law. All that matters-- really, *all*-- is where you go to law school. Jobs shower down on top10 grads, whereas people who go to average respectable state law schools will pretty much never be given a shot at the big leagues. Ever.

I'm marrying a lawyer. Last year, as a first year associate (the equivalent of a third year medical student, since law students don't get any practical experience in school) he was given the task of supervising the work of 100+ contract attorneys. These are guys hired temporarily to do the most mundane scutwork that's deemed too unimportant for the firm's lawyers but slightly too complex for a paralegal. Most were 40-50 years old; all had gone to law school in the US. Imagine a third year cracking the galley whip over the sweaty, straining backs of a shipful of FMG attendings.

The saddest thing was, they were all SO happy to be doing the work, since it beat any alternatives and paid them a decent ($30/hr, maybe?) wage for a couple of months.

It's not a nice world, and medicine is much, much better.
 
Medicine is also infinitely more meritocratic than law. All that matters-- really, *all*-- is where you go to law school. Jobs shower down on top10 grads, whereas people who go to average respectable state law schools will pretty much never be given a shot at the big leagues. Ever.

I'm marrying a lawyer. Last year, as a first year associate (the equivalent of a third year medical student, since law students don't get any practical experience in school) he was given the task of supervising the work of 100+ contract attorneys. These are guys hired temporarily to do the most mundane scutwork that's deemed too unimportant for the firm's lawyers but slightly too complex for a paralegal. Most were 40-50 years old; all had gone to law school in the US. Imagine a third year cracking the galley whip over the sweaty, straining backs of a shipful of FMG attendings.

The saddest thing was, they were all SO happy to be doing the work, since it beat any alternatives and paid them a decent ($30/hr, maybe?) wage for a couple of months.

It's not a nice world, and medicine is much, much better.

Honestly, that's what everyone says but it's not QUITE that divided. My father attended a mid-tier at best law school. He made equity partner at a top 5 law firm by the time I was 9 years old. My friends who went to top 10 schools certainly got the 150k offers fresh out of school (one of them got laid off on Friday, though). Friends who went to unknown law schools are in partnership track positions at smaller law firms earning about 100k.

Also, are you SURE they were getting $30/hr? My dad contracts out his paralegal (his long-time secretary, or occasionally me) at $50/hr. It doesn't earn him any money, but when work is slow for him it covers her office space, salary, and benefits. (He left the big law firm and is now of counsel to a smaller firm)
 
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While the AAMC may be pushing for an increase in allopathic medical school positions, they don't seem to be pushing for more residency positions.

This is an important distinction.
There will not be an overall increase in doctors.
Foreign medical grads, carribean medical grads, and osteopathic grads will be the ones left out, in that order.
There will be more competition between US MDs for those positions.

Look at today's match results...There are many positions that went unfilled. A ton of other positions probably went to foreign medical grads. We need more American students to fill those positions. Is it still only 40% of med school applicants that get in? Those residency spots could be filled with Americans if we only had the capacity. (I don't want foreign grads to take this as a slam against them, it is more a slam against our own system.)

My school went from 150 students in the class of 2009 to 175 in the class of 2010.
 
It's not impossible to do very well from a less-well-regarded law school, but it is orders of magnitude more difficult than it is to shine at a mid-tier med school. There is no equivalent of the boards, so no equalizer. Alumni networks and 'impressing the client' are given much greater weight.

And of course, there is no strict dichotomy between BigLaw glory (partners earning mid-7 figures) and penury. There are plenty of midsize firms firms who offer comfortable salaries.

Fiance and I have similar credentials and are both shocked and amused in the differences between our two worlds. He gets daily calls from headhunters trying to poach him away; I get "that's interesting... what were your Boards?"

As to the $30/hr-- no, not sure. It was Fiance's guess. He was quite chummy with them since he actually treated them like human beings instead of galley slaves and they were candid about things like money, job prospects, and the like.
 
It's not impossible to do very well from a less-well-regarded law school, but it is orders of magnitude more difficult than it is to shine at a mid-tier med school. There is no equivalent of the boards, so no equalizer. Alumni networks and 'impressing the client' are given much greater weight.

And of course, there is no strict dichotomy between BigLaw glory (partners earning mid-7 figures) and penury. There are plenty of midsize firms firms who offer comfortable salaries.

Fiance and I have similar credentials and are both shocked and amused in the differences between our two worlds. He gets daily calls from headhunters trying to poach him away; I get "that's interesting... what were your Boards?"

As to the $30/hr-- no, not sure. It was Fiance's guess. He was quite chummy with them since he actually treated them like human beings instead of galley slaves and they were candid about things like money, job prospects, and the like.

I know this is a little off-topic, but if you think that the same kind of attitude where pedigree has a huge influence doesn't exist in medicine then it's probably indicative of where you've gone to med school. Some of my friends who were going into internal medicine were ignored by some of the biggest name programs while friends with similar credentials at "name brand" medical schools were fawned over by these same programs.
 
I know this is a little off-topic, but if you think that the same kind of attitude where pedigree has a huge influence doesn't exist in medicine then it's probably indicative of where you've gone to med school. Some of my friends who were going into internal medicine were ignored by some of the biggest name programs while friends with similar credentials at "name brand" medical schools were fawned over by these same programs.

How can IM residencies, which are currently no where nearly as competitive as ROAD specialties, afford to snub people with better credentials because they went to e.g. Mt. Sinai instead of Cornell? It sounds like the other specialties are a lot more egalitarian that way. I don't get why the IM idiots can't adapt to that as well. Step scores and shelf exams reflect knowledge in a standardized manner, 3rd year grades (with subjectivity factored in) reflect work ethic and people skills among other things. Only 3rd year grades could be altered by what med school you went to, and that only if you think that students at a ~40 school are much lazier, socially inept, and less conscientious than those at a ~10 school, which I doubt is the case.
 
I know this is a little off-topic, but if you think that the same kind of attitude where pedigree has a huge influence doesn't exist in medicine then it's probably indicative of where you've gone to med school. Some of my friends who were going into internal medicine were ignored by some of the biggest name programs while friends with similar credentials at "name brand" medical schools were fawned over by these same programs.

Sigh. Yet another "either/or" misinterpretation.

I think medicine is "infinitely more" meritocratic, not perfectly meritocratic.
 
I know this is a little off-topic, but if you think that the same kind of attitude where pedigree has a huge influence doesn't exist in medicine then it's probably indicative of where you've gone to med school. Some of my friends who were going into internal medicine were ignored by some of the biggest name programs while friends with similar credentials at "name brand" medical schools were fawned over by these same programs.

Of course that exists to varying degrees in medicine as well, just the nature of the beast..... but in general it is much more a player in the law world.

My wife's in the "public sector", definitely not making 60-70k, that would be nice. :) But went to a school that I think is in the "Top Tier" and had many friends get some private gigs that paid very well, but are definitely putting in crappy hours and usually doing the scutwork of law. Plus, the market is just saturated right now anyway. In the end glad we went this route, more time off, great benefits. At this point I'm just thankful she has a relatively stable/secure job.
 
How can IM residencies, which are currently no where nearly as competitive as ROAD specialties, afford to snub people with better credentials because they went to e.g. Mt. Sinai instead of Cornell? It sounds like the other specialties are a lot more egalitarian that way. I don't get why the IM idiots can't adapt to that as well. Step scores and shelf exams reflect knowledge in a standardized manner, 3rd year grades (with subjectivity factored in) reflect work ethic and people skills among other things. Only 3rd year grades could be altered by what med school you went to, and that only if you think that students at a ~40 school are much lazier, socially inept, and less conscientious than those at a ~10 school, which I doubt is the case.

Not all IM residencies can afford to, but certainly the ones that are regarded as "top" residencies can. Most specialties are far more egalitarian (although I had one PD in my specialty tell me that one of the things they looked for in candidates from "top 20" medical schools, I will not be graduating from one of those). I look at graduates from my medical school and I am amazed, but not surprised by what they accomplish. I am absolutely in awe of some of my classmates - not just for their medical knowledge but for their humanistic qualities.


Sigh. Yet another "either/or" misinterpretation.

I think medicine is "infinitely more" meritocratic, not perfectly meritocratic.

Wow. FWIW, that comes across to me as a fairly condescending statement on your part. My point was simply that the two are (in my experience) much closer together in terms of meritocracy than your interpretation seemed to indicate.
 
There are plenty of people at "top 10-20" medical schools with good grades and good board scores, etc. who for various reasons don't get into the famous/well known IM programs either. Just like with med school admissions, there is a good bit of subjectivity in who gets picked. Sometimes a candidate gets picked because his/her research interests match with one of the faculty, etc. As far as perceived prestige of one's med school, I haven't noticed that it makes more of a difference in IM vs. other specialties. IM is definitely a less competitive specialty, but to match at one of those famous programs in a popular city like San Fran, Boston or NYC is going to be tough no matter what med school you attend, and there will be an element of crap shoot that is there, unless you have off the wall USMLE scores, great LOR's, and published research in a well known journal.
 
medicinesux,
I think it is unlikely to be nearly as bad, just because there are never going to be a bunch of "diploma mill" med schools the way there are with law schools. The AAMC regulates things better than that.

Unfortunately, there already are...

http://www.rockyvistauniversity.org/

...a caribbean school's for profit subsidiary in Colorado.
 
look like nursing is the only way to go. R.N.= rich nurse half the education of a J.D. but double the income.
 
Old Mil,
Rocky Vista is not accredited by the AAMC. From the Rocky Vista web site:

Accreditation
The college has been granted provisional accreditation from the American Osteopathic Association Commission on Osteopathic College Accreditation; an agency recognized by the United States Department of Education and by the Colorado Commission for Higher Education to deliver professional osteopathic medical education and grant degrees.

--------------
Even though there has been much talk about how US allopathic med schools need to expand, etc. and they have done so a little bit, and some new DO schools have opened, there are still far more residency spots than there are availabe US grads (allopathic plus DO grads), putting the average US grad in a pretty good position. I really think it's only the Carib grads from the shakier Carib schools, and perhaps some of the DO's who didn't do so well at their schools and/or didn't do well on USMLE but want an allopathic residency, who really have to worry much about the expansion of the US allopathic med schools.

I fear for the future of primary care, but not really because of expanding med schools, a "glut" of US trained physicians (which isn't going to happen any time soon because of strict control over number of residency positions) or even NP/PA's. The payment structure and overall specialist-oriented medical system we have now just doesn't really reward good primary care....
 
Old Mil,
Rocky Vista is not accredited by the AAMC. From the Rocky Vista web site:

Accreditation
The college has been granted provisional accreditation from the American Osteopathic Association Commission on Osteopathic College Accreditation; an agency recognized by the United States Department of Education and by the Colorado Commission for Higher Education to deliver professional osteopathic medical education and grant degrees.

--------------
Even though there has been much talk about how US allopathic med schools need to expand, etc. and they have done so a little bit, and some new DO schools have opened, there are still far more residency spots than there are availabe US grads (allopathic plus DO grads), putting the average US grad in a pretty good position. I really think it's only the Carib grads from the shakier Carib schools, and perhaps some of the DO's who didn't do so well at their schools and/or didn't do well on USMLE but want an allopathic residency, who really have to worry much about the expansion of the US allopathic med schools.

I fear for the future of primary care, but not really because of expanding med schools, a "glut" of US trained physicians (which isn't going to happen any time soon because of strict control over number of residency positions) or even NP/PA's. The payment structure and overall specialist-oriented medical system we have now just doesn't really reward good primary care....

Two things may change this. Number one: If the expansion of medical schools continue at a rate where new grads out number new residency positions, this may benefit primary care. FP and IM are the two fields that pretty much have an abundance of spots after the match. With more people entering the match, and these being the only spots left, by simple math more of these spots should get filled.

Also, there is a major push to change reimbursement according to preventative care, with PCPs being rewarded for a certain percentage of their patients who are at goal for things like A1C, lipids, BP, things like that. With the current regime in place in Washington, I see this as a less far off possibilty than socialized medicine. If this were to happen, I think the balance of reimbursement would shift from specialty to primary care, as will the balance of applications for residency.
 
Two things may change this. Number one: If the expansion of medical schools continue at a rate where new grads out number new residency positions, this may benefit primary care. FP and IM are the two fields that pretty much have an abundance of spots after the match. With more people entering the match, and these being the only spots left, by simple math more of these spots should get filled.

Also, there is a major push to change reimbursement according to preventative care, with PCPs being rewarded for a certain percentage of their patients who are at goal for things like A1C, lipids, BP, things like that. With the current regime in place in Washington, I see this as a less far off possibilty than socialized medicine. If this were to happen, I think the balance of reimbursement would shift from specialty to primary care, as will the balance of applications for residency.

Number one: Med schools are expanding a little, and this probably will fill a few of the primary care residency spots (which currently go to FMG's and IMG's) with US grads. However, the schools are not expanding nearly enough to fill up all the residency spots we have (with US grads). That would take a long, long time and a LOT of expansion. Doubtless some of the new US grads will be forced into primary care residencies, but if the working conditions in primary care aren't that good, many people will eventually find their way out (become hospitalists, start doing cosmetic procedures, work part time or quit clinical medicine). Also, just filling a few more spots with US grads rather than FMG's doesn't necessarily increase the supply of primary care docs...it just means they'll be American born and trained ones rather than US IMG's or FMG's.

Yes, there has been talk of changing reimbursements to "fix" primary care, and also of "pay for performance" (pay doctors more for providing "better" care, and/or pay less/penalize them for providing "worse" care). The problem with rewarding PCP's for getting HgbA1c below a certain level, etc. is that the bureaucrats who will decide the "acceptable" levels for various lab tests, etc. often don't understand the nuances of practicing clinical medicine. For example, in certain patients it can be dangerous and inappropriate to lower BP or HgbA1c to the supposedly "best" level according to current treatment guidelines. Patients are not widgets, they are individuals. Also, some doctors are very good doctors but work with difficult patient populations - patients who don't follow their doctor's recommendations, have very unhealthy lifestyles, chaotic social situations and such, which makes it much harder to get them to "goal" for these various parameters. In a pay for performance type system, I think doctors will be likely to try and fire these types of patients from their practices, or choose not to work in inner city type areas, etc. Furthermore, all this "pay for performance" stuff won't necessarily increase pay to primary care doctors. The powers that be could just as easily decide to penalize the docs who don't make the goal of lowering the patients' blood pressures or HgbA1c's enough.

I think for primary care to work in this country, people really have to buy into it being important - that means patients and policy makers as well as physicians. The problems in primary care go far, far deeper than just money/reimbursements. I am still worried r.e. the future of primary care.
 
Number one: Med schools are expanding a little, and this probably will fill a few of the primary care residency spots (which currently go to FMG's and IMG's) with US grads. However, the schools are not expanding nearly enough to fill up all the residency spots we have (with US grads). That would take a long, long time and a LOT of expansion. Doubtless some of the new US grads will be forced into primary care residencies, but if the working conditions in primary care aren't that good, many people will eventually find their way out (become hospitalists, start doing cosmetic procedures, work part time or quit clinical medicine). Also, just filling a few more spots with US grads rather than FMG's doesn't necessarily increase the supply of primary care docs...it just means they'll be American born and trained ones rather than US IMG's or FMG's.

Yes, there has been talk of changing reimbursements to "fix" primary care, and also of "pay for performance" (pay doctors more for providing "better" care, and/or pay less/penalize them for providing "worse" care). The problem with rewarding PCP's for getting HgbA1c below a certain level, etc. is that the bureaucrats who will decide the "acceptable" levels for various lab tests, etc. often don't understand the nuances of practicing clinical medicine. For example, in certain patients it can be dangerous and inappropriate to lower BP or HgbA1c to the supposedly "best" level according to current treatment guidelines. Patients are not widgets, they are individuals. Also, some doctors are very good doctors but work with difficult patient populations - patients who don't follow their doctor's recommendations, have very unhealthy lifestyles, chaotic social situations and such, which makes it much harder to get them to "goal" for these various parameters. In a pay for performance type system, I think doctors will be likely to try and fire these types of patients from their practices, or choose not to work in inner city type areas, etc. Furthermore, all this "pay for performance" stuff won't necessarily increase pay to primary care doctors. The powers that be could just as easily decide to penalize the docs who don't make the goal of lowering the patients' blood pressures or HgbA1c's enough.

I think for primary care to work in this country, people really have to buy into it being important - that means patients and policy makers as well as physicians. The problems in primary care go far, far deeper than just money/reimbursements. I am still worried r.e. the future of primary care.

Just out of curiosity, when is it dangerous to lower someones A1c under 6?
 
Just out of curiosity, when is it dangerous to lower someones A1c under 6?


In geriatric patients-those who are frail and/or institutionalized. A low HA1C has been found to be associated with a higher mortality.
 
Very strict HgbA1c control was shown in a recent study to be associated with higher mortality in coronary artery dz patients.

Also, there are the aforementioned problems with strict glycemic control in some elderly patients. Hypoglycemia can be >> dangerous than slightly high glucose. The point of strict glucose control is to prevent microvascular complications like retinopathy and renal disease - that's important in your 55year old obese Type II diabetic, but may not be so important in a frail 82yo elderly recent onset brittle diabetic who lives alone with nobody to find them if they pass out from hypoglycemia.

Again, patients are not widgets or cars that are constructed along an assembly line.
 
Interesting discussion going on here.

A few comments, I remember reading an article that pointed out that lawyers have a bimodal salary distribution. The two sites of distribution is at the $50k and the $150k+ spot. There are fewer jobs in between those two income distributions. The largest lump is at $50k and a smaller lump at $150k. That probably accounts for the contradictory salary quotes of lawyers (corporate lawyers that take six figures coming out of school and starving lawyers working for peanuts at public law).


How can IM residencies, which are currently no where nearly as competitive as ROAD specialties, afford to snub people with better credentials because they went to e.g. Mt. Sinai instead of Cornell?

From what I've heard, IM specialties can afford to be competitive because some programs have a higher success rate of sending people to lucrative IM subspecialities like cardiology. I remember several years back reading about Johns Hopkins IM program and how it was a killer program. Their interns worked crazy hours and it was terribly competitive to get in. I didn't understand why since an IM doc coming out anywhere would be an IM doc until someone pointed out that most people at JHU IM program are probably not training to be primary care IM doctors. I know that a friend of mine, who was competitive enough to get into some good programs choose IM, but she since she wants to subspecialize, she made sure to pick a fairly selective program.
 
Number one: Med schools are expanding a little, and this probably will fill a few of the primary care residency spots (which currently go to FMG's and IMG's) with US grads. However, the schools are not expanding nearly enough to fill up all the residency spots we have (with US grads). That would take a long, long time and a LOT of expansion. Doubtless some of the new US grads will be forced into primary care residencies, but if the working conditions in primary care aren't that good, many people will eventually find their way out (become hospitalists, start doing cosmetic procedures, work part time or quit clinical medicine). Also, just filling a few more spots with US grads rather than FMG's doesn't necessarily increase the supply of primary care docs...it just means they'll be American born and trained ones rather than US IMG's or FMG's.

Yes, there has been talk of changing reimbursements to "fix" primary care, and also of "pay for performance" (pay doctors more for providing "better" care, and/or pay less/penalize them for providing "worse" care). The problem with rewarding PCP's for getting HgbA1c below a certain level, etc. is that the bureaucrats who will decide the "acceptable" levels for various lab tests, etc. often don't understand the nuances of practicing clinical medicine. For example, in certain patients it can be dangerous and inappropriate to lower BP or HgbA1c to the supposedly "best" level according to current treatment guidelines. Patients are not widgets, they are individuals. Also, some doctors are very good doctors but work with difficult patient populations - patients who don't follow their doctor's recommendations, have very unhealthy lifestyles, chaotic social situations and such, which makes it much harder to get them to "goal" for these various parameters. In a pay for performance type system, I think doctors will be likely to try and fire these types of patients from their practices, or choose not to work in inner city type areas, etc. Furthermore, all this "pay for performance" stuff won't necessarily increase pay to primary care doctors. The powers that be could just as easily decide to penalize the docs who don't make the goal of lowering the patients' blood pressures or HgbA1c's enough.

I think for primary care to work in this country, people really have to buy into it being important - that means patients and policy makers as well as physicians. The problems in primary care go far, far deeper than just money/reimbursements. I am still worried r.e. the future of primary care.

Med schools are expanding slots a lot not a little.
Residency spots are expanding very slowly. I believe we should see more graduates than residency spots starting in 2018-2019 unless the Feds increase GME funding to help expand the number of residency slots. However with the current federal deficits an expansion in GME funding is not likely to happen.
aamc.jpg
 
Int-eh-resting... given that in the 2009 Match, 25,185 positions were available. I had no idea that the increase was that precipitous. IMGs and FMGs truly are going to be squeezed.

If Medicare funding is increased to up the number of residency slots, it certainly won't be in plastics, or urology, or interventional cardiology, if you get my drift.

The times, they are a'changin'...
 
Int-eh-resting... given that in the 2009 Match, 25,185 positions were available. I had no idea that the increase was that precipitous. IMGs and FMGs truly are going to be squeezed.

If Medicare funding is increased to up the number of residency slots, it certainly won't be in plastics, or urology, or interventional cardiology, if you get my drift.

The times, they are a'changin'...

I've been thinking the same. At my school the match list seems very heavy on those specialties, which to me seems to be somewhat born out of fear of the tanking economy. I do think that it may be wise at this point to do something like IM, since it leaves open the possibility of both procedural fellowship and primary care. Plastics or CT/vascular seems good too because you have the general surgery to fall back on. I worry for rads/gas/rad-onc/ophtho people and their future in the "new" economy.
 
I've said it before and I'll say it again-- choosing a specialty purely out of consideration for the economic conditions of 2009 is about the most short-sighted, misery-inducing thing you can do.

It's my personal opinion that anesthesia, especially, is going to be in for a world of hurt in just a few years, if history indeed repeats itself. All of the people who went into it out of a love for physiology, pharm, critical care, etc will still be happy... but the lifestyle-chasers will not.
 
I've said it before and I'll say it again-- choosing a specialty purely out of consideration for the economic conditions of 2009 is about the most short-sighted, misery-inducing thing you can do.

It's my personal opinion that anesthesia, especially, is going to be in for a world of hurt in just a few years, if history indeed repeats itself. All of the people who went into it out of a love for physiology, pharm, critical care, etc will still be happy... but the lifestyle-chasers will not.

Interesting you mention anesthesia because my parents still remember friends who were FMG and matched into anesthesia back in the early 1990's because it was so easy. Back then, no one wanted to do gas. Now it's considered a lifestyle specialty. Ah, how time has changed. That's what scares me about picking a specialty. We can't predict the future and everyone wants a nice salary and a good lifestyle. But we have to balance those considerations out with what we actually enjoy doing, because both salary and lifestyles are controlled by outside factors. Enjoyment of a specialty is internal.
 
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