graduating without step 2

[chipwhitley]

Hi again. I was wondering if anyone's school allows graduating without taking Step 2 CS or CK. Mine requires both, but I decided not to go to residency, so I don't need either. I'd like to not take them so I can save myself time and money. I spoke to my advisor who said that if I made an appeal with good enough reasons, I could possibly not have to take those exams. I heard a rumor that other schools do not require Step 2 to graduate, so I was wondering if any of you knew that yours doesn't. I could possibly use those examples as part of my argument. Also if you have ideas that I could use for my argument that would be really helpful. Thanks.

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[DermViser]

There used to be a time, actually not too long ago, when there were certain medical schools who would allow you not to take the board exams to graduate if you were not planning on entering residency. I really don't think that's the case anymore.

 

[FutureInternist]

Not sure why you are not going into Residency but if there is any possibility of you changing your mind, you need to take it now when the info is fresh

Doubt school policy will change based on what other schools are doing

 

[DermViser]

Not sure why you are not going into Residency but if there is any possibility of you changing your mind, you need to take it now when the info is fresh

Doubt school policy will change based on what other schools are doing

It happens. http://medstation.yale.edu/enrollment/www/2013matchspec.pdf

People go into healthcare consulting working for McKinsey, etc.

 

[Dires]

It happens. http://medstation.yale.edu/enrollment/www/2013matchspec.pdf

People go into healthcare consulting working for McKinsey, etc.

You know anyone that went this route?
(McKinsey)

 

[PL198]

It happens. http://medstation.yale.edu/enrollment/www/2013matchspec.pdf

People go into healthcare consulting working for McKinsey, etc.

Do they realize that MDs without residency have like no real perspective for how medicine actually is? I don't see how being in the hospital 3rd and some of 4th year would give you any kind of medical knowledge to actually be beneficial somehow to a company.

 

[DermViser]

Do they realize that MDs without residency have like no real perspective for how medicine actually is? I don't see how being in the hospital 3rd and some of 4th year would give you any kind of medical knowledge to actually be beneficial somehow to a company.

Do you think all of medicine is just the clinical practice of medicine? Do you think all these companies that are involved in medicine Biotech, Pharma, or companies like Leapfrog, etc. are just doing it for the heck of it? McKinsey hires MD grads (although mainly from top-tier medical schools all the time): http://www.mckinsey.com/careers/faqs/medical_degree

 

[chipwhitley]

FutureInternist - So basically I wanted to quit in my first year, but everyone told me I just needed to get used to the new life of med school. I wanted to quit second year but everyone told me to wait until I get to rotations because it would be really different. I wanted to quit 3rd year but everyone told me 3rd year sucks but it'll be better 4th year. I just finished my first 4th year AI and I still want to quit, but at this point I've spent so much money and time that I might as well get my MD, even though it's going to be useless. Now everyone's telling me that I should at least stick it out one more year to do intern year and step 3. I feel like at this point, I just need to quit, because I've been listening to what I thought was reasonable advice over and over, but ending up with the same results

 

[chipwhitley]

It happens. http://medstation.yale.edu/enrollment/www/2013matchspec.pdf

People go into healthcare consulting working for McKinsey, etc.

I've tried McKinsey, I got an interview but didn't get much further.

I'm planning to go back to school for an engineering degree.

 

[DermViser]

FutureInternist - So basically I wanted to quit in my first year, but everyone told me I just needed to get used to the new life of med school. I wanted to quit second year but everyone told me to wait until I get to rotations because it would be really different. I wanted to quit 3rd year but everyone told me 3rd year sucks but it'll be better 4th year. I just finished my first 4th year AI and I still want to quit, but at this point I've spent so much money and time that I might as well get my MD, even though it's going to be useless. Now everyone's telling me that I should at least stick it out one more year to do intern year and step 3. I feel like at this point, I just need to quit, because I've been listening to what I thought was reasonable advice over and over, but ending up with the same results

I truly hope people read your post. I've noticed SDN consistently does this when it comes to giving people advice like this. I realize it varies greatly by person, but it doesn't necessarily "get better" for people as they progress thru medical school education. It's different, but not necessarily better.

 

[DermViser]

I've tried McKinsey, I got an interview but didn't get much further.

I'm planning to go back to school for an engineering degree.

You might want to try out www.dropoutclub.org that's been mentioned on SDN as well.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

FutureInternist - So basically I wanted to quit in my first year, but everyone told me I just needed to get used to the new life of med school. I wanted to quit second year but everyone told me to wait until I get to rotations because it would be really different. I wanted to quit 3rd year but everyone told me 3rd year sucks but it'll be better 4th year. I just finished my first 4th year AI and I still want to quit, but at this point I've spent so much money and time that I might as well get my MD, even though it's going to be useless. Now everyone's telling me that I should at least stick it out one more year to do intern year and step 3. I feel like at this point, I just need to quit, because I've been listening to what I thought was reasonable advice over and over, but ending up with the same results

You should have quit during the first year... Medicine is not for everyone! It's wise to stay for one more year IMO... Even @DermViser who, most of the time, discourage people from going into medicine would tell you now it's not the time to quit...

 

[tiedyeddog]

My school requires CS and CK be done before graduation. We actually have to take them both before some time in november.

 

[chipwhitley]

You should have quit during the first year... Medicine is not for everyone! It's wise to stay for one more year IMO... Even @DermViser who, most of the time, discourage people from going into medicine would tell you now it's not the time to quit...

I should continue then? I am not sure how it will be better for me...

 

[chipwhitley]

You might want to try out www.dropoutclub.org that's been mentioned on SDN as well.

Thanks, I've signed up and I have been getting the job emails. So far I haven't found anything that I have the skills to do, but I'll keep a look out.

 

[DermViser]

You should have quit during the first year... Medicine is not for everyone! It's wise to stay for one more year IMO... Even @DermViser who, most of the time, discourage people from going into medicine would tell you now it's not the time to quit...

With all due respect, I never discourage anyone to not go into medicine. I do however say that that the physician route (when they are alternate routes) is not for everyone which is not equivalent to discouraging. I realize that might sound the same to you, but to most who can understand nuance it isn't, MS-1.

 

[DermViser]

I should continue then? I am not sure how it will be better for me...

He's an MS-1, he knows nothing about your situation. If you can't find a specialty you can like (or at least not hate) there are alternative options although I don't know how viable they are (or if you got an MBA or something). Point is to make an informed decision.

 

[AMEHigh]

You should have quit during the first year... Medicine is not for everyone! It's wise to stay for one more year IMO... Even @DermViser who, most of the time, discourage people from going into medicine would tell you now it's not the time to quit...

I don't think the OP wants to quit in their 4th year, they still plan to get the degree, which I think is pretty wise at this point.

OP, I'd probably focus your argument on the fact that you passed step 1 (I assume) and have passed all your classes, so academically you show competency to receive the degree. In addition, you plan to pursue another graduate degree with no plans to pursue clinical practice, therefore have no need to take step 2. Good luck!

 

[BestDoctorEver]

I don't think the OP wants to quit in their 4th year, they still plan to get the degree, which I think is pretty wise at this point.

OP, I'd probably focus your argument on the fact that you passed step 1 (I assume) and have passed all your classes, so academically you show competency to receive the degree. In addition, you plan to pursue another graduate degree with no plans to pursue clinical practice, therefore have no need to take step 2. Good luck!

I was saying that I think it would be better for OP to get a license as a GP, which might make him/her more marketable IMO if s/he wants to get a job in another industry...

Hey! if OP doesn't have that hefty loan that most med students have, he/she can say f... it...

 

[BestDoctorEver]

He's an MS-1, he knows nothing about your situation. If you can't find a specialty you can like (or at least not hate) there are alternative options although I don't know how viable they are (or if you got an MBA or something). Point is to make an informed decision.

OK BIG DOC! THE MASTER OF ALL KNOWLEDGE! We both don't know OP's situation, but if OP does not have a major impediment that would prevent from doing one more year to get a GP license after going to med school for four years, most people would say it's not wise to leave now... of course I am assuming that OP has some student loan...

 

[chipwhitley]

OK BIG DOC! THE MASTER OF ALL KNOWLEDGE! We both don't know OP's situation, but if OP does not have a major impediment that would prevent from doing one more year to get a GP license after going to med school for four years, most people would say the decision it's not wise to leave now... of course I am assuming that OP has some student loan...

I've considered doing the extra year to get licensed. In fact I have done a lot of research on the topic. What I've found is that without completing a full residency, there really are very few jobs that one can get. In fact, I can't even get licensed in my home state. So it doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense to stick around for one more year. By the time that year (which I'd never be able to use) is over, I'd already be almost halfway through my grad program. Not only that, but I've found that engineering, the field I'm planning to switch into, is very age sensitive. I'm already far older than most people starting out after college, so I have to be very careful with how I spend my time.

 

[DermViser]

OK BIG DOC! THE MASTER OF ALL KNOWLEDGE! We both don't know OP's situation, but if OP does not have a major impediment that would prevent from doing one more year to get a GP license after going to med school for four years, most people would say it's not wise to leave now... of course I am assuming that OP has some student loan...

I was talking about an actual residency that leads to board certification. Yes, you are correct, a 1 year internship after which he can take Step 3 and get an unrestricted license, he could work some places without being board certified. Mainly places that have no choice, as more and more hospitals and insurance companies are demanding board certification.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

I've considered doing the extra year to get licensed. In fact I have done a lot of research on the topic. What I've found is that without completing a full residency, there really are very few jobs that one can get. In fact, I can't even get licensed in my home state. So it doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense to stick around for one more year. By the time that year (which I'd never be able to use) is over, I'd already be almost halfway through my grad program.

I used to work with some GP at a County Health Department in South FL... GP can get these job easily since no BC physicians want them because of low compensation... I know some states require 2 year post grad... I don't know... I just think it does not make a whole lot of sense to me that someone who goes to med school for 4-year and does not want to stay one more year to get a license... If you have other issues going on, it's definitely understandable.

 

[chipwhitley]

I used to work with some GP at a County Health Department in South FL... GP can get these job easily since no BC physicians want them because of low compensation... I know some states require 2 year post grad... I don't know... I just think it does not make a whole lot of sense to me that someone who goes to med school for 4-year and does not want to stay one more year to get a license... If you have other issues going on, it's definitely understandable.

That's the thing though, it's always been, just try one more year. But it never ends. If I stay one more year, everyone will be saying, hey why don't you just stay 2 more and become fully board certified? I mean in the context of having spent 5 years already, it makes sense, right?. I've stayed 4 years and I'm not happy with it, so I think the best thing for me is to try something else instead of continually throwing year after year. I'm not getting younger.

As someone in another thread mentioned, I can still apply to residency up to 3 years after graduation, so I feel like if after a year or two out I feel like I made a mistake, I can get back in, though it will be tough, it's not impossible.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

I was talking about an actual residency that leads to board certification. Yes, you are correct, a 1 year internship after which he can take Step 3 and get an unrestricted license, he could work some places without being board certified. Mainly places that have no choice, as more and more hospitals and insurance companies are demanding board certification.

Actual residency ! That is another story, but one more year to get a license if there are no major issues going on is not a big deal IMO... I used to work with some of these GP (Health Department) and I thought they were more happy than the physicians I worked at the hospital... Yes they make 100k/year, but they work M-F 8-5 no calls, no weekends, holidays off... Retirement benefit after 10 years etc... and there were even rumors they were gonna make them work M-TH (10 hrs/day) and they will have Fri-Sat-Sun off.

 

[purphant]

WashU doesn't require Step 2 if you're not pursuing clinical medicine. Actually even step 1 isn't required.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

That's the thing though, it's always been, just try one more year. But it never ends. If I stay one more year, everyone will be saying, hey why don't you just stay 2 more and become fully board certified? I mean in the context of having spent 5 years already, it makes sense, right?. I've stayed 4 years and I'm not happy with it, so I think the best thing for me is to try something else instead of continually throwing year after year. I'm not getting younger.

As someone in another thread mentioned, I can still apply to residency up to 3 years after graduation, so I feel like if after a year or two out I feel like I made a mistake, I can get back in, though it will be tough, it's not impossible.

I don't know your exact situation, but IMO you should do that one more year providing you don't have other major issues going on in your life... I think it would make you more marketable if you want to find a job in another industry...

 

[purphant]

That's the thing though, it's always been, just try one more year. But it never ends. If I stay one more year, everyone will be saying, hey why don't you just stay 2 more and become fully board certified? I mean in the context of having spent 5 years already, it makes sense, right?. I've stayed 4 years and I'm not happy with it, so I think the best thing for me is to try something else instead of continually throwing year after year. I'm not getting younger.

As someone in another thread mentioned, I can still apply to residency up to 3 years after graduation, so I feel like if after a year or two out I feel like I made a mistake, I can get back in, though it will be tough, it's not impossible.

People are always gonna say "it's only one more year". Sounds like you've wanted out for a while now. Just follow your gut. Best of luck!

 

[chipwhitley]

People are always gonna say "it's only one more year". Sounds like you've wanted out for a while now. Just follow your gut. Best of luck!

Thanks! I kept listening to the "try another year" people, but it just never got better. I don't think it ever will. The problem with that advice is that they forget it's also another $50k, which if you end up quitting, becomes much much harder to pay back.

 

[DermViser]

Thanks! I kept listening to the "try another year" people, but it just never got better. I don't think it ever will. The problem with that advice is that they forget it's also another $50k, which if you end up quitting, becomes much much harder to pay back.

Is there really no specialty at all you would be happy with? Not even Radiology or Pathology?

 

[chipwhitley]

Is there really no specialty at all you would be happy with? Not even Radiology or Pathology?

I don't really know. To be honest, medicine just makes me very anxious. I haven't really enjoyed a minute in the hospital. I don't really know why. I'm just always anxious. The minute I leave the building, it goes away. But then it slowly builds up as I realize I have to go in again the next day.

I went to see a psychiatrist for most of med school, he started me on different meds, but to be honest nothing really helped me. I don't think I can keep this up anymore.

 

[DermViser]

I don't really know. To be honest, medicine just makes me very anxious. I haven't really enjoyed a minute in the hospital. I don't really know why. I'm just always anxious. The minute I leave the building, it goes away. But then it slowly builds up as I realize I have to go in again the next day.

I went to see a psychiatrist for most of med school, he started me on different meds, but to be honest nothing really helped me. I don't think I can keep this up anymore.

Did you volunteer in a hospital as a premed? Is it the presenting of patients? The acute nature of medicine? There are fields that are more on an outpatient basis: Derm, Ophtho, PM&R, as well as those that aren't really inpatient hospital as far as rounding, etc. -- Rads, Path, etc. I think someone here said the key is to find something you like, but at the very least find something you won't hate.

 

[boogaloo]

OK BIG DOC! THE MASTER OF ALL KNOWLEDGE! We both don't know OP's situation, but if OP does not have a major impediment that would prevent from doing one more year to get a GP license after going to med school for four years, most people would say it's not wise to leave now... of course I am assuming that OP has some student loan...

I used to work with some GP at a County Health Department in South FL... GP can get these job easily since no BC physicians want them because of low compensation... I know some states require 2 year post grad... I don't know... I just think it does not make a whole lot of sense to me that someone who goes to med school for 4-year and does not want to stay one more year to get a license... If you have other issues going on, it's definitely understandable.

Actual residency ! That is another story, but one more year to get a license if there are no major issues going on is not a big deal IMO... I used to work with some of these GP (Health Department) and I thought they were more happy than the physicians I worked at the hospital... Yes they make 100k/year, but they work M-F 8-5 no calls, no weekends, holidays off... Retirement benefit after 10 years etc... and there were even rumors they were gonna make them work M-TH (10 hrs/day) and they will have Fri-Sat-Sun off.

I don't know your exact situation, but IMO you should do that one more year providing you don't have other major issues going on in your life... I think it would make you more marketable if you want to find a job in another industry...

You're a part of the group of people that prompted OP to make this post in the first place. You don't listen. Jesus.

 

[chipwhitley]

Did you volunteer in a hospital as a premed? Is it the presenting of patients? The acute nature of medicine? There are fields that are more on an outpatient basis: Derm, Ophtho, PM&R, as well as those that aren't really inpatient hospital as far as rounding, etc. -- Rads, Path, etc. I think someone here said the key is to find something you like, but at the very least find something you won't hate.

I really don't know. My personality is more suited to quietly working on my own with machines or computers. That's what I'm most comfortable doing. I'm not good dealing with lots of people all day. I'm nervous about meeting new people. I'm not really good with so many things going on at once. I pursued medicine because it made my family happy. That's what they really wanted me to do. My dad's an engineer. I visited his office as a kid. He spent most of his day on the computer working away at some calculations. I really liked that. But I didn't want to tell him I liked that, because ironically he hated it and wanted me to be a doctor.

Also, I'm very indecisive and anxious, and I thought if I pursued the "most stable" profession, I couldn't go wrong. It's like they used to say in the IT business - No one ever gets fired for buying IBM. No ever goes hungry becoming a doctor, right? I've certainly never heard of a doctor who couldn't find a job. I did volunteer in a hospital, and to be honest I didn't like it all then either. I talked to people about it then too and they said, oh that's always the case when you're doing something new, it's always scary and makes you uncomfortable, that means you're stepping out of your comfort zone and that's good. So I stuck to it.

So I've always just kept going and going because I don't want to be the one fool that gives up too early. I always tell myself to suck it up because everyone else is doing it why can't I? But it has never gotten better. It just gets more and more anxiety provoking because the deeper you go the harder it is to get out. I can't say I haven't contemplated suicide when the anxiety got out of control. There are many many times in the clinic or hospital I just wanted to disappear to stop the anxiety. Many times I just left. Fortunately I never got in trouble.

ERAS is already open, but I'm not applying because I can't even imagine having to start residency. Just looking up the residency websites is giving me palpitations.

Now look at me. I'm $250k in debt. I'm about to get a degree that will be completely worthless which I will be paying back the rest of my life and I'm going to have to go back to college and start over to do what I really wanted to all along. Who knows if I'll even succeed at it this late in the game?

This is why you should never do something you're not passionate or at the very least comfortable with.

 

[PL198]

Do you think all of medicine is just the clinical practice of medicine? Do you think all these companies that are involved in medicine Biotech, Pharma, or companies like Leapfrog, etc. are just doing it for the heck of it? McKinsey hires MD grads (although mainly from top-tier medical schools all the time): http://www.mckinsey.com/careers/faqs/medical_degree

no but the clinical aspect of medicine is pretty much what physicians are good at..

Their website talks about problem solving, which isn't something physicians are typically good at outside of a clinical setting( medical students are HORRIBLE at math on average). Honestly the only angle I can see it for them is they get someone they know can work their butt off. Not sure how desirable these jobs are, but it sounds like an MBA stud that took a crash course in healthcare for a year would be able to wipe the floor with most docs in what they're looking for. I guess it's probably for image reasons as well, because to the public they're a physician, even though they know literally nothing about clinical medicine. An MD without residency just seems like someone that has proven their work ethic, nothing more.

 

[PL198]

I don't get why making 100k a year to work 40 hours a week is a good deal for an MD. They still have a lot of debt probably and they could end up making double that in the least competitive specialties with hours that aren't much worse. It's still pretty good I guess, but there's a reason no one wants the jobs....

 

[chipwhitley]

no but the clinical aspect of medicine is pretty much what physicians are good at..

Their website talks about problem solving, which isn't something physicians are typically good at outside of a clinical setting( medical students are HORRIBLE at math on average). Honestly the only angle I can see it for them is they get someone they know can work their butt off. Not sure how desirable these jobs are, but it sounds like an MBA stud that took a crash course in healthcare for a year would be able to wipe the floor with most docs in what they're looking for. I guess it's probably for image reasons as well, because to the public they're a physician, even though they know literally nothing about clinical medicine. An MD without residency just seems like someone that has proven their work ethic, nothing more.

I wouldn't say an MD without residency knows nothing about clinical medicine. Maybe compared to a practicing physician, but certainly not compared to an MBA, or a lawyer or any other professional. Not even compared to someone with a nursing degree. Did you not learn anything at all about medicine in Medical school?

 

[DermViser]

I really don't know. My personality is more suited to quietly working on my own with machines or computers. That's what I'm most comfortable doing. I'm not good dealing with lots of people all day. I'm nervous about meeting new people. I'm not really good with so many things going on at once. I pursued medicine because it made my family happy. That's what they really wanted me to do. My dad's an engineer. I visited his office as a kid. He spent most of his day on the computer working away at some calculations. I really liked that. But I didn't want to tell him I liked that, because ironically he hated it and wanted me to be a doctor.

Also, I'm very indecisive and anxious, and I thought if I pursued the "most stable" profession, I couldn't go wrong. It's like they used to say in the IT business - No one ever gets fired for buying IBM. No ever goes hungry becoming a doctor, right? I've certainly never heard of a doctor who couldn't find a job. I did volunteer in a hospital, and to be honest I didn't like it all then either. I talked to people about it then too and they said, oh that's always the case when you're doing something new, it's always scary and makes you uncomfortable, that means you're stepping out of your comfort zone and that's good. So I stuck to it.

So I've always just kept going and going because I don't want to be the one fool that gives up too early. I always tell myself to suck it up because everyone else is doing it why can't I? But it has never gotten better. It just gets more and more anxiety provoking because the deeper you go the harder it is to get out. I can't say I haven't contemplated suicide. ERAS is already open, but I'm not applying because I can't even imagine having to start residency. Just looking up the residency websites is giving me palpitations.

Now look at me. I'm $250k in debt. I'm about to get a degree that will be completely worthless and I'm going to have to go back to college and start over to do what I really wanted to all along.

This is why you should never do something you're not passionate or at the very least comfortable with.

I swear your thread should be stickied to the top of Pre-Allo it's not even funny.

Is it the having to present part that makes you nervous? If you like machines/computers and working alone, why not do Radiology or Pathology?

 

[PL198]

I wouldn't say an MD without residency knows nothing about clinical medicine. Maybe compared to a practicing physician, but certainly not compared to an MBA, or a lawyer or any other professional. Not even compared to someone with a nursing degree.

Nothing that's really beneficial at least. I just don't buy the argument that they're going to be somehow better than someone that has no clinical experience at all for that position. Clearly the companies do though so great for them I guess. I'd guess that the image is 90 % of the allure behind the physicians in that situation.

 

[chipwhitley]

Nothing that's really beneficial at least. I just don't buy the argument that they're going to be somehow better than someone that has no clinical experience at all for that position. Clearly the companies do though so great for them I guess. I'd guess that the image is 90 % of the allure behind the physicians in that situation.

Well, if what I need is to evaluate a product for use by physicians, I think I would get a better answer from an MD than an MBA, since at least the MD will understand what that product is actually for and what it does. Remember that MBAs don't even have basic biology background. An MD, even without residency, not only has a biology background, but has a full understanding of the theory of medicine, and some understanding of its clinical application. Your average MBA has none.

Maybe I'm just hoping that I didn't just spend 4 years of my life and over a quarter million dollars to have no more understanding of clinical medicine than an MBA...

 

[DermViser]

no but the clinical aspect of medicine is pretty much what physicians are good at..

Their website talks about problem solving, which isn't something physicians are typically good at outside of a clinical setting( medical students are HORRIBLE at math on average). Honestly the only angle I can see it for them is they get someone they know can work their butt off. Not sure how desirable these jobs are, but it sounds like an MBA stud that took a crash course in healthcare for a year would be able to wipe the floor with most docs in what they're looking for. I guess it's probably for image reasons as well, because to the public they're a physician, even though they know literally nothing about clinical medicine. An MD without residency just seems like someone that has proven their work ethic, nothing more.

I know this will shock you as a 21 yo. BS/MD student, but problem solving isn't something med students can't do just bc medical school doesn't emphasize those characteristics early onin M1/M2. Some of the most successful hospitals in the country (with happy doctors) are ones run by MDs who went and got their MBA: http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/...be-run-by-doctors/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0. There rea many articles on this subject.

MDs have an insight into the thinking of clinicians that MBA onlys don't have (and don't care about).

I don't get why making 100k a year to work 40 hours a week is a good deal for an MD. They still have a lot of debt probably and they could end up making double that in the least competitive specialties with hours that aren't much worse. It's still pretty good I guess, but there's a reason no one wants the jobs....

100 k a year for 40 hours a week is a pretty good deal. Esp. with no call responsibility, not missing family events, birthdays, weddings, etc. You act as if anyone can just walk into those specialties. Even Emergency Medicine which wasn't even close to being competitive has become more so looking at Charting Outcomes. Why do you think that is?

 

[DermViser]

I wouldn't say an MD without residency knows nothing about clinical medicine. Maybe compared to a practicing physician, but certainly not compared to an MBA, or a lawyer or any other professional. Not even compared to someone with a nursing degree. Did you not learn anything at all about medicine in Medical school?

He's in basic sciences in MS-2 so, um, no. He has yet to step onto the clinical wards.

 

[PL198]

Well, if what I need is to evaluate a product for use by physicians, I think I would get a better answer from an MD than an MBA, since at least the MD will understand what that product is actually for and what it does. Remember that MBAs don't even have basic biology background. An MD, even without residency, not only has a biology background, but has a full understanding of the theory of medicine, and some understanding of its clinical application. Your average MBA has none.

Maybe I'm just hoping that I didn't just spend 4 years of my life and over a quarter million dollars to have no more understanding of clinical medicine than an MBA...

You'd definitely have more, I'm just debating how usable that knowledge is.

Derm, A physician that gets an MBA vs typical MD aren't same types of people. The MBAs are the analytical people capable of problem solving outside of clinical settings, so of course it doesn't surprise me they run stuff well. The MD/MBA people are the ones that get a flat tire and just change it, while the regular people are the ones that sit on the side of the road and cry and wait for AAA.

 

[DermViser]

You're a part of the group of people that prompted OP to make this post in the first place. You don't listen. Jesus.

You didn't hear though? He's going to be the BestDoctorEver (even though he has already said it's just a job). Why would he listen to anything that goes against his worldview?

 

[DermViser]

You'd definitely have more, I'm just debating how usable that knowledge is.

Derm, A physician that gets an MBA vs typical MD aren't same types of people. The MBAs are the analytical people capable of problem solving outside of clinical settings, so of course it doesn't surprise me they run stuff well. The MD/MBA people are the ones that get a flat tire and just change it, while the regular people are the ones that sit on the side of the road and cry and wait for AAA.

Right now we are comparing a Physician with an MBA vs. just an MBA. There is a very good reason that MBA schools (for people who aren't physicians) want them to have at least 5 years of work experience. It's bc you apply the skills of that MBA to the job. I know it's hard for you to understand but you have yet to actually hit to the analytical and actual thinking part of medicine. The first 2 years of medical school sitting at a desk, watching podcasts of lectures reading notes, textbooks, review books and doing practice questions is NOT medicine. There is a reason there are MD/MBA programs.

 

[anbuitachi]

I really don't know. My personality is more suited to quietly working on my own with machines or computers. That's what I'm most comfortable doing. I'm not good dealing with lots of people all day. I'm nervous about meeting new people. I'm not really good with so many things going on at once. I pursued medicine because it made my family happy. That's what they really wanted me to do. My dad's an engineer. I visited his office as a kid. He spent most of his day on the computer working away at some calculations. I really liked that. But I didn't want to tell him I liked that, because ironically he hated it and wanted me to be a doctor.

Also, I'm very indecisive and anxious, and I thought if I pursued the "most stable" profession, I couldn't go wrong. It's like they used to say in the IT business - No one ever gets fired for buying IBM. No ever goes hungry becoming a doctor, right? I've certainly never heard of a doctor who couldn't find a job. I did volunteer in a hospital, and to be honest I didn't like it all then either. I talked to people about it then too and they said, oh that's always the case when you're doing something new, it's always scary and makes you uncomfortable, that means you're stepping out of your comfort zone and that's good. So I stuck to it.

So I've always just kept going and going because I don't want to be the one fool that gives up too early. I always tell myself to suck it up because everyone else is doing it why can't I? But it has never gotten better. It just gets more and more anxiety provoking because the deeper you go the harder it is to get out. I can't say I haven't contemplated suicide when the anxiety got out of control. There are many many times in the clinic or hospital I just wanted to disappear to stop the anxiety. Many times I just left. Fortunately I never got in trouble.

ERAS is already open, but I'm not applying because I can't even imagine having to start residency. Just looking up the residency websites is giving me palpitations.

Now look at me. I'm $250k in debt. I'm about to get a degree that will be completely worthless which I will be paying back the rest of my life and I'm going to have to go back to college and start over to do what I really wanted to all along. Who knows if I'll even succeed at it this late in the game?

This is why you should never do something you're not passionate or at the very least comfortable with.

You definitely are not alone in this. That's why a lot of people in your situation go into Pathology, b/c there really isn't much patient contact. Honestly, I highly recommend trying 1 yr of residency in something like Pathology, or maybe even anesthesiology. I feel like one reason med students feel anxious in the hospital is because 1) they dont know much 2) their situation is constantly changing, going from rotation to rotation, and not sure of what to do while in the hospital, and being on the bottom of the pole in terms of ranks.

The thing engineering degree will take most likely at least 3 years, meaning more debt. By that time you'll be anxious about your debt ballooning out of control... (your 250k med school debt alone going up at 6-7% rates will be like 300k when you are done w/ engineering. it's going to be very difficult to pay this off).

The thing is, you dont have to like your job. Most ppl dont like their jobs. Use your job as your source of income, so you can enjoy life when you get out of work doing stuff you truly want to do.

 

[mimelim]

I know this will shock you as a 21 yo. BS/MD student, but problem solving isn't something med students can't do just bc medical school doesn't emphasize those characteristics early onin M1/M2. Some of the most successful hospitals in the country (with happy doctors) are ones run by MDs who went and got their MBA: http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/...be-run-by-doctors/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0. There rea many articles on this subject.

MDs have an insight into the thinking of clinicians that MBA onlys don't have (and don't care about).


100 k a year for 40 hours a week is a pretty good deal. Esp. with no call responsibility, not missing family events, birthdays, weddings, etc. You act as if anyone can just walk into those specialties. Even Emergency Medicine which wasn't even close to being competitive has become more so looking at Charting Outcomes. Why do you think that is?

McKinsey came knocking about midway through my MS3. Then again last year. I listened to what they had to offer and politely declined (again). Even considering lifestyle + paycheck, it is hard to compare medical consulting to clinical practice. Unless you are at the top of the field in consulting (in which case, you are likely working your butt off), you aren't making a ton.

 

[DermViser]

McKinsey came knocking about midway through my MS3. Then again last year. I listened to what they had to offer and politely declined (again). Even considering lifestyle + paycheck, it is hard to compare medical consulting to clinical practice. Unless you are at the top of the field in consulting (in which case, you are likely working your butt off), you aren't making a ton.

Oh, I completely agree. You aren't making a ton (vs. say a medical specialty), but I believe the OP's main consideration isn't really the paycheck but more having a normal life and lifestyle (in terms of people not dying on him left and right, not being exhausted, not worrying about one's malpractice, getting to sleep at a proper time, etc.).

I'll also say that your experience in many respects: premed, medical school clerkship experience, having McKinsey knocking on your door, is a definite minority - although a position most people would love to be in.

 

[chipwhitley]

I swear your thread should be stickied to the top of Pre-Allo it's not even funny.

Is it the having to present part that makes you nervous? If you like machines/computers and working alone, why not do Radiology or Pathology?

I'm not really sure what it is, but I think it's just the combination of everything. It's all the sickness everywhere in the hospital - it scares me. I dream every day of just waking up and finding out that I actually work in a nice, clean, quiet office where people are all doing well and healthy, like the millions of offices that most people work in every day. I see my friends instagramming pics of their normal, nonchaotic, seemingly boring offices and I'm jealous. That's all I ever wanted in my life. I didn't want this. I'm also incredibly disorganized. I've tried so many ways to organize stuff, but it just never stays in my head. I also have a lot of concentration difficulty and forgetfulness. I zone out a lot and I don't even realize it. I just did my AI and I could barely handle 3 patients without losing it. My attending picked up on how anxious I was and was nice to me, because she felt bad. But I won't have that in residency. I'll be out the door. I can't deal with so many new people every day. I have always had social anxiety and medical school has amplified it to the max.

I hate how medicine's always there. I can't ever just shut it off and not have anything to worry about it. It's always there. There's always something.

Most of all, I just don't really care about medicine. I don't find any of this stuff really interesting or exciting at all. If it was a mindless 8-5 job where my head could be somewhere else all day, that would be fine. I could do that. But in medicine I have to keep thinking all the time about medicine, and I don't want to. It's so invasive in my brain. It never goes away. It never ends.

I dunno. I've thought about radiology but a year of internal medicine first? I'd never survive. Pathology maybe, but once again I just don't care. I don't know if I can force myself to spend so much of my life doing something I frankly don't find interesting.

I just wanted to be an engineer like my dad. That's all I wanted. I wish I had the balls to do what I wanted when I was a kid.

 

[DermViser]

I'm not really sure what it is, but I think it's just the combination of everything. It's all the sickness everywhere in the hospital - it scares me. I dream every day of just waking up and finding out that I actually work in a nice, clean, quiet office where people are all doing well and healthy, like the millions of offices that most people work in every day. I see my friends instagramming pics of their normal, nonchaotic, seemingly boring offices and I'm jealous. That's all I ever wanted in my life. I didn't want this. I'm also incredibly disorganized. I've tried so many ways to organize stuff, but it just never stays in my head. I also have a lot of concentration difficulty and forgetfulness. I zone out a lot and I don't even realize it. I just did my AI and I could barely handle 3 patients without losing it. My attending picked up on how anxious I was and was nice to me, because she felt bad. But I won't have that in residency. I'll be out the door. I can't deal with so many new people every day. I have always had social anxiety and medical school has amplified it to the max.

I hate how medicine's always there. I can't ever just shut it off and not have anything to worry about it. It's always there. There's always something.

Most of all, I just don't really care about medicine. I don't find any of this stuff really interesting or exciting at all. If it was a mindless 8-5 job where my head could be somewhere else all day, that would be fine. I could do that. But in medicine I have to keep thinking all the time about medicine, and I don't want to. It's so invasive in my brain. It never goes away. It never ends.

I dunno. I've thought about radiology but a year of internal medicine first? I'd never survive. Pathology maybe, but once again I just don't care. I don't know if I can force myself to spend so many hours doing something I frankly don't find interesting.

I just wanted to be an engineer like my dad. That's all I wanted.

But Radiology is only 1 year of internship and then it's done and over. You can have a nice clean desk, where people all around you are healthy and you're reading and dictating with occasional phone calls from consultants possibly. Do you not like the actual medicine learning even if it was Rads or Path? How do you know you're not glorifying engineering?