graduating without step 2

[chipwhitley]

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But Radiology is only 1 year of internship and then it's done and over. You can have a nice clean desk, where people all around you are healthy and you're reading and dictating with occasional phone calls from consultants possibly. Do you not like the actual medicine learning even if it was Rads or Path? How do you know you're not glorifying engineering?

I probably am glorifying it. I don't know man, I just want out. I'm so scared of residency. I don't know what else to say. Maybe engineering is just as bad. I just don't know what to do. But I know for sure I'm not happy here. Somewhere else at least there's a chance it could be better.

Plus one year is a long time. I'm honestly worried I am going to spiral into a terrible depression before I make it though. I came really close several times in med school. I don't want to ever feel like that again.

Edit: Maybe it's just as bad or worse in engineering? Maybe, I don't know. But I don't know what else to do. I've been seeing psychiatrists for years and taking all sorts of pills. I've done all sorts of therapy. My doctor is convinced med school is the cause of all my problems. I just don't know.

 

[DermViser]

I probably am glorifying it. I don't know man, I just want out. I'm so scared of residency. I don't know what else to say. Maybe engineering is just as bad. I just don't know what to do. But I know for sure I'm not happy here. Somewhere else at least there's a chance it could be better.

Plus one year is a long time. I'm honestly worried I am going to spiral into a terrible depression before I make it though. I came really close several times in med school. I don't want to ever feel like that again.

Edit: Maybe it's just as bad or worse in engineering? Maybe, I don't know. But I don't know what else to do. I've been seeing psychiatrists for years and taking all sorts of pills. I've done all sorts of therapy. I just don't know.

Has pharmacotherapy not worked at all? You don't think even with pharmacotherapy and your family real close by to you for your internship, that you'd be able to get thru a year and bare it out before you move on to Radiology?

 

[mimelim]

Oh, I completely agree. You aren't making a ton (vs. say a medical specialty), but I believe the OP's main consideration isn't really the paycheck but more having a normal life and lifestyle (in terms of people not dying on him left and right, not being exhausted, not worrying about one's malpractice, getting to sleep at a proper time, etc.).

I'll also say that your experience in many respects: premed, medical school clerkship experience, having McKinsey knocking on your door, is a definite minority - although a position most people would love to be in. 😀

Don't get me wrong, it is flattering to be wanted. But, in the end, even with lifestyle factored in, it is pretty hard to justify going that route unless you couldn't do clinical medicine. Good backup, but it is hard to imagine going that route primarily, unless the thought of residency makes you vomit.

 

[chipwhitley]

Has pharmacotherapy not worked at all? You don't think even with pharmacotherapy and your family real close by to you for your internship, that you'd be able to get thru a year and bare it out before you move on to Radiology?

So I had tried several different medications. Then after 2nd year, I pretty much had a mental meltdown and ended up in the ER. I took a year off to do research and during that time I literally had no anxiety. I was actually enjoying myself. After that my psychiatrist decided that I didn't actually have any medical problem and it was the fact that I couldn't handle medical school which was causing all of my trouble. He stopped all of my medication and suggested I quit med school.

Maybe I could make it through, but even if I could, I don't think I could get into Radiology right now. I have prepared nothing for ERAS and most people have already submitted, I haven't done a single Radiology rotation, my step 1 score is low, my grades are just average. I'm not sure how I would even proceed if I wanted to try for radiology.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

You didn't hear though? He's going to be the, BestDoctorEver (even though he has already said it's just a job). Why would he listen to anything that goes against his worldview?

I am sure this comment was directed at me... Yes medicine will be like any other job for me... Just like when I was a dishwasher, a grocery store clerk and a RN... Don't get me wrong! I will bust my behind to be good at it just like I did in my previous jobs, but I will never put it above my wellbeing... Power to you if you are going to be the mother Teresa of medicine...

 

[DermViser]

Don't get me wrong, it is flattering to be wanted. But, in the end, even with lifestyle factored in, it is pretty hard to justify going that route unless you couldn't do clinical medicine. Good backup, but it is hard to imagine going that route primarily, unless the thought of residency makes you vomit.

Yes, I agree. I don't think anyone PLANS from the beginning of medical school to do that. Although there are some but you could tell based off of doing an MD/MPP or an MD/MBA from the beginning. It's much more an escape hatch for those at the end of MS-3, who realize they couldn't stand the thought of doing residency.

 

[DermViser]

I am sure this comment was directed at me... Yes medicine will be like any other job for me... Just like when I was a dishwasher, a grocery store clerk and a RN... Don't get me wrong! I will bust my behind to be good at it just like I did in my previous jobs, but I will never put it above my wellbeing... Power to you if you are going to be the mother Teresa of medicine...

Well good luck to you. Your attitude of medicine just being like any other job (dishwasher/grocery store clerk/RN) esp. so early when you just started med school, will serve you quite well in MS-3 and residency. You'll realize unforunately (probably too late) that there will be a lot more will be expected of you than "just another job", much of which you won't be renumerated for in anyway, vs. if you worked a normal job. You'll be the type of med student/resident who does just enough to get by and no more.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

Well good luck to you. Your attitude of medicine just being like any other job (dishwasher/grocery store clerk/RN) esp. so early when you just started med school, will serve you quite well in MS-3 and residency. You'll realize unforunately (probably too late) that there will be a lot more will be expected of you than "just another job", much of which you won't be renumerated for in anyway, vs. if you worked a normal job. You'll be the type of med student/resident who does just enough to get by and no more.

That is your opinion! I am not where I am now because I don't do what is required of me... Your GOD-LIKE complex is amazing... Do you think medicine is the only profession that requires people to work hard?

 

[DermViser]

That is your opinion! I am not where I am now because I don't do what is required of me... You GOD-LIKE complex is amazing... Do you think medicine is the only profession that requires people to work hard?

No one said medicine is the ONLY profession that requires people to work hard. However, the realities are that medicine is a huge investment in time and in money while sacrificing your 20s that many other professions don't have just to get a paycheck. You will be doing A LOT of things in medicine that aren't interesting, that you don't get paid extra for, and that you will be expected to do bc some hospital administrator tells you. You'll be doing things bc other people in the chain didn't do it. You'll have to prove you credentials at many steps of the way: med school exams, Step exams, in-training exams, specialty boards, and even then you'll have to continuously maintain your certification in which you have to retake exams to maintain board certification to maintain your hospital privileges. Your work will be held up to scrutiny by your attending, hospital peer review, regulatory bodies, etc. On top of that, depending on your specialty, your malpractice is on the line in everything you do, and everything you write in your note.

Besides certain specialties and subspecialties, this isn't a clock in-clock out profession where you can leave even when **** is not done. If you want that type of job where you don't have that much responsibility that goes beyond just a job, the physician specific pathway isn't it.

 

[purphant]

So I had tried several different medications. Then after 2nd year, I pretty much had a mental meltdown and ended up in the ER. I took a year off to do research and during that time I literally had no anxiety. I was actually enjoying myself. After that my psychiatrist decided that I didn't actually have any medical problem and it was the fact that I couldn't handle medical school which was causing all of my trouble. He stopped all of my medication and suggested I quit med school.

Maybe I could make it through, but even if I could, I don't think I could get into Radiology right now. I have prepared nothing for ERAS and most people have already submitted, I haven't done a single Radiology rotation, my step 1 score is low, my grades are just average. I'm not sure how I would even proceed if I wanted to try for radiology.

Do you have any undergraduate engineering or computer science experience? Is there a career counselor you can speak to on your campus? Maybe not in the med school but one that helps grad students in general?

 

[Kaustikos]

I've wanted to quit numerous times. But I found my niche and I wouldn't trade it for anything. It wasn't what other people told me. If I don't become a surgeon then medicine is bye bye. There's no "better" if you're unhappy with the other options.

 

[chipwhitley]

Do you have any undergraduate engineering or computer science experience? Is there a career counselor you can speak to on your campus? Maybe not in the med school but one that helps grad students in general?

No, I don't have any undergrad experience in engineering or computer science. I spoke to our engineering grad school career advisor. She told me I'm out of luck at most grad schools because they require a bachelors in a related field. However, there are some schools that have 'bridge' programs, for people switching in from other careers that let you take core undergrad courses as part of the masters, it just gets extended by a couple of semesters. I'm already applying to almost all of these programs. Particularly interested in the in-state tuition.

These 'bridge' programs seem pretty lenient in terms of their schedule. So if I could find some sort of job that would be ideal to prevent my debt from ballooning out of control.

It's not easy, but it's not impossible.

I also hear that I can apply to residency up to 3 years out, so if things change, I can always backtrack and try for residency again.

 

[chipwhitley]

I have my plan pretty much set and I know where I'm going. I just hope what I've said here provides a cautionary tale to people applying to medical school. People who have issues like mine should get them sorted out before going to medical school or at least early on, and if they can't, it's very likely medicine will not work out. Just pushing through year to year does not work. Going to med school for the sole purpose of impressing your family/friends or because you're afraid of being unemployed or not having a good salary also is not going to work.

Please think REALLY hard about this before you do it, and make sure you get enough experience in the hospital to know what you're getting into. If it doesn't feel right, don't let people tell you anything otherwise - find something that does feel right. I've heard a million times, it gets better. It does not get better. It just gets different. If you are unhappy, leave earlier on and don't look back. I wish I had.

Besides, nowadays if you want to take care of patients there are like 100+ different paths you could take, many of them allowing you to do pretty much everything a doctor does (NP, PA, CRNA, Etc). Don't just go because you want to MD in front of your name, or because you want a big salary, if med school + residency isn't something you can handle.

 

[Dr. Retractor]

I have my plan pretty much set and I know where I'm going. I just hope what I've said here provides a cautionary tale to people applying to medical school. People who have issues like mine should get them sorted out before going to medical school or at least early on, and if they can't, it's very likely medicine will not work out. Just pushing through year to year does not work. Going to med school for the sole purpose of impressing your family/friends or because you're afraid of being unemployed or not having a good salary also is not going to work.

Please think REALLY hard about this before you do it, and make sure you get enough experience in the hospital to know what you're getting into. If it doesn't feel right, don't let people tell you anything otherwise - find something that does feel right. I've heard a million times, it gets better. It does not get better. It just gets different. If you are unhappy, leave earlier on and don't look back. I wish I had.

Besides, nowadays if you want to take care of patients there are like 100+ different paths you could take, many of them allowing you to do pretty much everything a doctor does (NP, PA, CRNA, Etc). Don't just go because you want to MD in front of your name, or because you want a big salary, if med school + residency isn't something you can handle.

This needs to be stickied in the pre-allo forum.

 

[DermViser]

I also hear that I can apply to residency up to 3 years out, so if things change, I can always backtrack and try for residency again.

I would beware of this. They'll look at your application and maybe invite you for an interview. Has nothing to do with being ranked to match though.

 

[DermViser]

I have my plan pretty much set and I know where I'm going. I just hope what I've said here provides a cautionary tale to people applying to medical school. People who have issues like mine should get them sorted out before going to medical school or at least early on, and if they can't, it's very likely medicine will not work out. Just pushing through year to year does not work. Going to med school for the sole purpose of impressing your family/friends or because you're afraid of being unemployed or not having a good salary also is not going to work.

Please think REALLY hard about this before you do it, and make sure you get enough experience in the hospital to know what you're getting into. If it doesn't feel right, don't let people tell you anything otherwise - find something that does feel right. I've heard a million times, it gets better. It does not get better. It just gets different. If you are unhappy, leave earlier on and don't look back. I wish I had.

Besides, nowadays if you want to take care of patients there are like 100+ different paths you could take, many of them allowing you to do pretty much everything a doctor does (NP, PA, CRNA, Etc). Don't just go because you want to MD in front of your name, or because you want a big salary, if med school + residency isn't something you can handle.

Amazing how I say this, and I get beat up on by overzealous premeds. Thank you for giving your story. You've given very sage advice in this post and in the thread with regards to whether medicine is right for someone. I agree with above, this thread really should be stickied.

 

[ChEMD]

I'm worried that you aren't going to be happy in engineering either, where you still have to deal with new people all the time. I hate to break it to you, but engineering isn't all sitting at a desk working on a computer all day. It's meetings with supervisors, it's constantly being reminded of deadlines, it's often more of a team effort than anything else. Many of the things that seem to make you anxious in medicine will be present there too. It sounds like you've already made up your mind, and I do hope you find happiness in engineering, but I just have a feeling that this is very much a grass is greener situation.

 

[chipwhitley]

I'm worried that you aren't going to be happy in engineering either, where you still have to deal with new people all the time. I hate to break it to you, but engineering isn't all sitting at a desk working on a computer all day. It's meetings with supervisors, it's constantly being reminded of deadlines, it's often more of a team effort than anything else. Many of the things that seem to make you anxious in medicine will be present there too. It sounds like you've already made up your mind, and I do hope you find happiness in engineering, but I just have a feeling that this is very much a grass is greener situation.

I agree that many of the same issues can be found in engineering, but I don't think they're quite as bad as in medicine. For example, in medicine you routinely deal with many new patients on a daily basis. Correct me if I'm wrong, but in an engineering position, the people you work with aren't changing on a daily basis. Also, based on my friends describing their engineering jobs, it is certainly stressful, but it is not anywhere as demanding as the life of a resident or attending. They all seem to work relatively normal hours, get ample rest, and have relatively normal lives. Is this not the case? Is the average engineer's job as demanding as the average doctor's?

I feel confident about my plan, but I am always open to criticism, and if you think I'm wrong, please feel free to tell me, as I still have time to change my path if it turns out I really am making a mistake.

 

[chipwhitley]

I would beware of this. They'll look at your application and maybe invite you for an interview. Has nothing to do with being ranked to match though.

That's true. But it is certainly comforting to know that the door isn't completely closed in case things don't work out for me outside medicine and I realize that I should have stayed. I'm not expecting to have the same success rate as I would now, straight out of school. However, if the door stays open even at a few programs, that's something. If I get desperate, at least I have a chance.

 

[DermViser]

That's true. But it is certainly comforting to know that the door isn't completely closed in case things don't work out for me outside medicine and I realize that I should have stayed. I'm not expecting to have the same success rate as I would now, straight out of school. However, if the door stays open even at a few programs, that's something. If I get desperate, at least I have a chance.

There's a difference between being completely closed and being effectively closed. That's why it's best to talk with someone in the know about the ramifications of these things.

 

[chipwhitley]

There's a difference between being completely closed and being effectively closed. That's why it's best to talk with someone in the know about the ramifications of these things.

Do you really think it is effectively closed? I am not so sure about that, given that foreign grads who are often several years from graduation are able to find positions. Who could I talk to in order to get a better understanding of my chances?

 

[DermViser]

Do you really think it is effectively closed? I am not so sure about that, given that foreign grads who are often several years from graduation are able to find positions. Who could I talk to in order to get a better understanding of my chances?

With medical schools increasing their enrollments and the number of MS-4s applying effectively equaling the number of residency spots (if it hasn't happened already), it does make it effectively closed except maybe for programs that always match IMGs. Even in Family Medicine there are programs that always match AMGs bc it's a program that is liked for people wanting to go into FM. You could talk to your Dean of Student Affairs, you could talk with some of the mods here on SDN, maybe if your school has an MD/MBA program, you can ask the person in charge what are your options after completing that, etc. Of course, there are mods on SDN some of whom are PDs and explain to them your situation as well.

 

[chipwhitley]

With medical schools increasing their enrollments and the number of MS-4s applying effectively equaling the number of residency spots (if it hasn't happened already), it does make it effectively closed except maybe for programs that always match IMGs. Even in Family Medicine there are programs that always match AMGs bc it's a program that is liked for people wanting to go into FM. You could talk to your Dean of Student Affairs, you could talk with some of the mods here on SDN, maybe if your school has an MD/MBA program, you can ask the person in charge what are your options after completing that, etc. Of course, there are mods on SDN some of whom are PDs and explain to them your situation as well.

Thanks. After what you said yesterday, I thought it over and decided I'm going to talk to the Pathology chairman and ask if there is any way I can apply to pathology (just in case).

 

[DermViser]

Thanks. After what you said yesterday, I thought it over and decided I'm going to talk to the Pathology chairman and ask if there is any way I can apply to pathology (just in case).

Talk to your Radiology PD as well. Doesn't hurt to get all views. Some Pathology programs have post-sophomore fellowships (with a stipend) so you can get pretty good Path programs after completing one. If you like solitary type of stuff, I think you'll really like Pathology, esp. if you find patients to be "icky", which is ok bc everyone has their place somewhere in medicine.

 

[ChEMD]

I agree that many of the same issues can be found in engineering, but I don't think they're quite as bad as in medicine. For example, in medicine you routinely deal with many new patients on a daily basis. Correct me if I'm wrong, but in an engineering position, the people you work with aren't changing on a daily basis. Also, based on my friends describing their engineering jobs, it is certainly stressful, but it is not anywhere as demanding as the life of a resident or attending. They all seem to work relatively normal hours, get ample rest, and have relatively normal lives. Is this not the case? Is the average engineer's job as demanding as the average doctor's?

I feel confident about my plan, but I am always open to criticism, and if you think I'm wrong, please feel free to tell me, as I still have time to change my path if it turns out I really am making a mistake.

The thing with engineering is there is always someone that they can get to replace you. So yeah, you can work normal hours without breaking too much of a sweat, but you probably won't be getting noticed or moved up in the company, which means once the next round of layoffs comes around, your name may be coming up on that list. In order to avoid this, you need to make your bosses know that you are useful and productive, which usually means working longer hours with more stress involved.

I really think you should look into pathology. It sounds like a job that you could do that would alleviate some of your anxiety (no direct contact with new patients every day). Find a job in private practice and you don't even necessarily have to work out of a hospital. If you don't want to work as many hours, you can probably find a gig that allows you to do so. Obviously it will be for less pay, but cutting a pathologists salary by X% is still more than you'll be making as an engineer.

 

[chipwhitley]

The thing with engineering is there is always someone that they can get to replace you. So yeah, you can work normal hours without breaking too much of a sweat, but you probably won't be getting noticed or moved up in the company, which means once the next round of layoffs comes around, your name may be coming up on that list. In order to avoid this, you need to make your bosses know that you are useful and productive, which usually means working longer hours with more stress involved.

I really think you should look into pathology. It sounds like a job that you could do that would alleviate some of your anxiety (no direct contact with new patients every day). Find a job in private practice and you don't even necessarily have to work out of a hospital. If you don't want to work as many hours, you can probably find a gig that allows you to do so. Obviously it will be for less pay, but cutting a pathologists salary by X% is still more than you'll be making as an engineer.

Thanks, I'm certainly going to take another look at Pathology now that you and others have mentioned it. Do you have any idea what the residency for pathology is like? I just want a much lower-key life than what I see in medicine. I just can't deal with stress and anxiety that well. I'm worried about how stressful Pathology may be - I feel like I'll always be worried I made the wrong call on something. My friends in engineering tell me that there is nothing really comparable to "malpractice". The work they do tends to get reviewed by many others before it actually is used, so it's not that common that one of your mistakes could end up killing someone, and the blame lands solely on you. The other thing I like about engineering is there are no board exams. I've been constantly living in fear of those things, which is also why I started this thread. Everyone hates them, but my anxiety issues make them far far worse. Maybe I'm idealizing things, but I feel like even at its worst, the engineer's life is not as bad as the doctor's.

 

[Rirruto]

Hey Chip, (props on the Conan reference btw),
Have you considered clinical pathology? This is the field dealing with laboratory medicine, where you aren't so much "making the call" on an individual patient's diagnosis as you would in anatomic/surgical pathology, but rather, you would be in charge of a clinical laboratory that performs/oversees/validates laboratory tests. I think there are some residencies that allow you to do CP only without combined AP.

PM&R as DV mentioned could be another choice. It can be outpatient only, and patients and families are generally very grateful with even incremental improvement.

 

[ChEMD]

Thanks, I'm certainly going to take another look at Pathology now that you and others have mentioned it. Do you have any idea what the residency for pathology is like? I just want a much lower-key life than what I see in medicine. I just can't deal with stress and anxiety that well. I'm worried about how stressful Pathology may be - I feel like I'll always be worried I made the wrong call on something. My friends in engineering tell me that there is nothing really comparable to "malpractice". The work they do tends to get reviewed by many others before it actually is used, so it's not that common that one of your mistakes could end up killing someone, and the blame lands solely on you. The other thing I like about engineering is there are no board exams. I've been constantly living in fear of those things, which is also why I started this thread. Everyone hates them, but my anxiety issues make them far far worse. Maybe I'm idealizing things, but I feel like even at its worst, the engineer's life is not as bad as the doctor's.

Engineering mistakes actually kill people more often than you think, just type in the words "chemical plant explosion" on YouTube or Google and you'll get plenty of stories. I personally have no idea what a pathology residency is like. Every job is going to have stress, whether it's wondering if you made the right call in medicine, or your boss pushing you to meet a deadline that seems impossible. However, typically you at least don't have to worry about job security in medicine, and that can't be said for many other careers.

But good luck in your decision, I truly wish you the best. Going back to your original question, I would probably take step 2 if I were in your shoes, just in case you end up wanting to do something in medicine. You'll never be more prepared than you are now (or at least could be with a little studying).

 

[chipwhitley]

Engineering mistakes actually kill people more often than you think, just type in the words "chemical plant explosion" on YouTube or Google and you'll get plenty of stories. I personally have no idea what a pathology residency is like. Every job is going to have stress, whether it's wondering if you made the right call in medicine, or your boss pushing you to meet a deadline that seems impossible. However, typically you at least don't have to worry about job security in medicine, and that can't be said for many other careers.

But good luck in your decision, I truly wish you the best. Going back to your original question, I would probably take step 2 if I were in your shoes, just in case you end up wanting to do something in medicine. You'll never be more prepared than you are now (or at least could be with a little studying).

Thanks for your insight, and your best wishes. I appreciate it. You make a valid point, which I've been told a lot - jobs outside of medicine are just as (if not more) stressful, especially because there's far less job security and far less pay, and far more competition. But then I wonder, why doesn't everyone just apply to med school? I can't imagine anyone would not value job security or salary. I'd be willing to bet most engineers are smart and hardworking enough to become doctors too. There must be something worthwhile there that makes up for the lack of job security and lower pay.

 

[chipwhitley]

Hey Chip, (props on the Conan reference btw),
Have you considered clinical pathology? This is the field dealing with laboratory medicine, where you aren't so much "making the call" on an individual patient's diagnosis as you would in anatomic/surgical pathology, but rather, you would be in charge of a clinical laboratory that performs/oversees/validates laboratory tests. I think there are some residencies that allow you to do CP only without combined AP.

PM&R as DV mentioned could be another choice. It can be outpatient only, and patients and families are generally very grateful with even incremental improvement.

Thanks! I think that was one of the funniest conan bits I have seen. If anyone doesn't get the reference - .

I didn't know Clinical pathology existed. It seems interesting. I am going to investigate Pathology further and see if it still possible for me to apply. Thanks for pointing this out.

 

[MU420]

Thanks, I'm certainly going to take another look at Pathology now that you and others have mentioned it. Do you have any idea what the residency for pathology is like? I just want a much lower-key life than what I see in medicine. I just can't deal with stress and anxiety that well. I'm worried about how stressful Pathology may be - I feel like I'll always be worried I made the wrong call on something. My friends in engineering tell me that there is nothing really comparable to "malpractice". The work they do tends to get reviewed by many others before it actually is used, so it's not that common that one of your mistakes could end up killing someone, and the blame lands solely on you. The other thing I like about engineering is there are no board exams. I've been constantly living in fear of those things, which is also why I started this thread. Everyone hates them, but my anxiety issues make them far far worse. Maybe I'm idealizing things, but I feel like even at its worst, the engineer's life is not as bad as the doctor's.

Pathology is a good suggestion, but you do still have to go through 4 years of residency (probably 5 years as it seems like the vast majority of path residents are doing fellowships these days) where you're going to be working in subspecialties of pathology you might not like. Surgical pathology for example can be pretty brutal depending on where you're doing your residency and most programs seem to require quite a few months of surg path.

Radiology requires prelim year and after reading your posts in other threads, I'm not going to recommend you to go through a year of that.

Also, saw PM&R getting suggested above and that's a not good idea. You're going to be doing 2-3 years of inpatient medicine during residency.

And I'm not going to tell you "It's just a couple more years" because you have been told that too many times already by other people and it has not worked out for you.

 

[jakeislove]

Skipped ahead.

I don't have anything smart or insightful to add but wanted to wish OP the best.

 

[demayette]

Thanks for your insight, and your best wishes. I appreciate it. You make a valid point, which I've been told a lot - jobs outside of medicine are just as (if not more) stressful, especially because there's far less job security and far less pay, and far more competition. But then I wonder, why doesn't everyone just apply to med school? I can't imagine anyone would not value job security or salary. I'd be willing to bet most engineers are smart and hardworking enough to become doctors too. There must be something worthwhile there that makes up for the lack of job security and lower pay.

Most people don't like the idea of not 'enjoying' their youth or their 'prime age'... In medicine, your spend your 20s studying almost everyday (including undergrad) since the competition is stiff... That is why PA has become a viable alternative for many--you are done with school in your mid 20s, you enjoy the job security that physicians have, and you are making almost six figures with no 300k student debt...

 

[chipwhitley]

Skipped ahead.

I don't have anything smart or insightful to add but wanted to wish OP the best.

Thanks, I really appreciate it.

 

[chipwhitley]

So I just spoke to the dean of my school, and he advised me that I won't be able to graduate without Step 2 CK. He also told me that I have to take it by the 1st of october, or I will not be allowed to continue 4th year - I will have to take a leave of absence and take the test, pushing graduation back by a year, or I'll have to drop out, not being able to receive my MD. That leaves me just a little over a week to study for and pass this test, which I may be able to do, but it's going to be tough, especially given that I haven't even signed up, and there are no spots open to take it at this point. I don't understand why I would have to abide by the October 1st deadline as my understanding was that deadline was meant for students who are entering the match. If I'm not entering the match, why should it matter when I take the test as long as I'm able to pass it by the time of graduation?

I feel like they are just upset with me because I'm not going into the match and trying to make my life difficult.

If anybody has any thoughts that would help me deal with this situation, I'd greatly appreciate it. Thanks.

 

[xffan624]

So I just spoke to the dean of my school, and he advised me that I won't be able to graduate without Step 2 CK. He also told me that I have to take it by the 1st of october, or I will not be allowed to continue 4th year - I will have to take a leave of absence and take the test, pushing graduation back by a year, or I'll have to drop out, not being able to receive my MD. That leaves me just a little over a week to study for and pass this test, which I may be able to do, but it's going to be tough, especially given that I haven't even signed up, and there are no spots open to take it at this point. I don't understand why I would have to abide by the October 1st deadline as my understanding was that deadline was meant for students who are entering the match. If I'm not entering the match, why should it matter when I take the test as long as I'm able to pass it by the time of graduation?

If anybody has any thoughts that would help me deal with this situation, I'd greatly appreciate it. Thanks.

You have to do you what your dean says. That's my only advice. Seems like he's crystal clear on what's required of you. Whether it's an illogical policy or not has no relevance on whether you have to follow it.

 

[chipwhitley]

You have to do you what your dean says. That's my only advice. Seems like he's crystal clear on what's required of you. Whether it's an illogical policy or not has no relevance on whether you have to follow it.

It's not exactly crystal clear because I know for a fact that other students have taken the exam later than October 1st in the past. Therefore, he clearly does make exceptions for people, but doesn't seem to want to make one for me.

I'm just unhappy because I forced myself through the majority of school, and may not end up graduating because of a illogical rule that I know other people have gotten exceptions to 🙁

So if anyone has any ideas for what may work, please let me know. A classmate suggested that if the dean doesn't budge, I should get a lawyer.

 

[DermViser]

It's not exactly crystal clear because I know for a fact that other students have taken the exam later than October 1st in the past. Therefore, he clearly does make exceptions for people, but doesn't seem to want to make one for me.

I'm just unhappy because I forced myself through the majority of school, and may not end up graduating because of a illogical rule that I know other people have gotten exceptions to 🙁

So if anyone has any ideas for what may work, please let me know. A classmate suggested that if the dean doesn't budge, I should get a lawyer.

Is the Step 2 CK date official policy? I'm surprised it's so early. Your classmate is an idiot.

 

[chipwhitley]

Is the Step 2 CK date official policy? I'm surprised it's so early. Your classmate is an idiot.

I searched the school website and the school rule book, and I haven't found the date mentioned anywhere. We were told by the dean that Step 2 CK should be taken by October 1st in order to be certified for the match. Since I didn't plan to enter the match, I assumed that rule did not apply to me. Therefore, I haven't yet signed up for it. I planned to do it later in the year after I got my grad school applications and GRE done, since those deadlines are coming up. I even thought of trying to appeal my way out of it, hence this thread.

I checked the school website and school handbook, and I couldn't find any mention of such a rule. But I was called in to meet with the dean because they noticed that I hadn't even scheduled the test and the date was getting close. At that time, I told him that I wasn't planning to apply to the match. He told me that regardless, I'd need to complete the test by October 1st because that's the rule, or I couldn't continue with 4th year - I'd have to go on leave of absence, take the test, and return after a passing score has been recorded, thereby pushing graduation back by a year.

So this puts me in a difficult position, because I can't even find a place to take the test with a week's notice. There are no openings for it anywhere that I can find. Not to mention with barely a week's preparation, I'm not entirely confident I could even pass this test.

If it was the official policy and everyone had to follow it, it should be in the rule book or on the website somewhere, right? It can't just be something the dean tells people individually.

 

[DermViser]

I searched the school website and the school rule book, and I haven't found the date mentioned anywhere. We were told by the dean that Step 2 CK should be taken by October 1st in order to be certified for the match. Since I didn't plan to enter the match, I assumed that rule did not apply to me. Therefore, I haven't yet signed up for it. I planned to do it later in the year after I got my grad school applications and GRE done, since those deadlines are coming up. I even thought of trying to appeal my way out of it, hence this thread.

I checked the school website and school handbook, and I couldn't find any mention of such a rule. But I was called in to meet with the dean because they noticed that I hadn't even scheduled the test and the date was getting close. At that time, I told him that I wasn't planning to apply to the match. He told me that regardless, I'd need to complete the test by October 1st because that's the rule, or I couldn't continue with 4th year - I'd have to go on leave of absence, take the test, and return after a passing score has been recorded, thereby pushing graduation back by a year.

So this puts me in a difficult position, because I can't even find a place to take the test with a week's notice. There are no openings for it anywhere that I can find. Not to mention with barely a week's preparation, I'm not entirely confident I could even pass this test.

If it was the official policy and everyone had to follow it, it should be in the rule book or on the website somewhere, right? It can't just be something the dean tells people individually.

Usually a Step 2 CK deadline is more for graduation purposes that also happens to be before the match. Not all schools do this. There are schools that just say you have to take Step 2 CK before you graduate in May. This is usually in a handbook.

 

[chipwhitley]

Usually a Step 2 CK deadline is more for graduation purposes that also happens to be before the match. Not all schools do this. There are schools that just say you have to take Step 2 CK before you graduate in May. This is usually in a handbook.

Yeah, our handbook states that Step 2 CK must be passed before May in order to graduate, but it doesn't state that there is a specific deadline for taking it. I've only heard that verbally from the dean. I might be able to mention this and ask for an extension since I just didn't know it applied to me.

 

[DermViser]

I'm surprised your Dean of your medical school is getting involved. Usually it's like a Dean of Student Affairs.

 

[repititionition]

OP - Lots of advice here. Ultimately you will have to figure out what is right for you, but you should absolutely take Step 2. There is NO upside to closing this door now.

After having done that, you should also investigate both preventative medicine residencies and occupational and environmental health residencies.

Both of these are basically out there FOR PEOPLE LIKE YOU. Now if you have something like GAD then neither of these are going to work, as they require one year of clinical GME (in most cases fulfilled with outpatient/continuity clinic requirements), but the PDs in these programs understand their applicant pool's strengths and weaknesses.

Even if you do decide to bail on medicine completely, consider doing BME (as opposed to a completely unrelated branch of engineering) or bioinformatics. Both will leverage your MD and make you a stronger job candidate with the synergies of your training.

Best of luck.

 

[chipwhitley]

Pathology is a good suggestion, but you do still have to go through 4 years of residency (probably 5 years as it seems like the vast majority of path residents are doing fellowships these days) where you're going to be working in subspecialties of pathology you might not like. Surgical pathology for example can be pretty brutal depending on where you're doing your residency and most programs seem to require quite a few months of surg path.

Radiology requires prelim year and after reading your posts in other threads, I'm not going to recommend you to go through a year of that.

Also, saw PM&R getting suggested above and that's a not good idea. You're going to be doing 2-3 years of inpatient medicine during residency.

And I'm not going to tell you "It's just a couple more years" because you have been told that too many times already by other people and it has not worked out for you.

This is very true. I'm looking into pathology, radiology and other options but I'm not sure a residency of any kind will work for me. The "couple more years" crowd means well, but they just don't understand because they actually like medicine and do well at it, and can't imagine what the big deal could be. I'm worried how I'm even going to make it to the end of this year. A couple more years of clinical medicine to me is like an eternity.

 

[chipwhitley]

OP - Lots of advice here. Ultimately you will have to figure out what is right for you, but you should absolutely take Step 2. There is NO upside to closing this door now.

After having done that, you should also investigate both preventative medicine residencies and occupational and environmental health residencies.

Both of these are basically out there FOR PEOPLE LIKE YOU. Now if you have something like GAD then neither of these are going to work, as they require one year of clinical GME (in most cases fulfilled with outpatient/continuity clinic requirements), but the PDs in these programs understand their applicant pool's strengths and weaknesses.

Even if you do decide to bail on medicine completely, consider doing BME (as opposed to a completely unrelated branch of engineering) or bioinformatics. Both will leverage your MD and make you a stronger job candidate with the synergies of your training.

Best of luck.

Thanks for the advice. I looked at both of those residencies and they seem to require a year of clinical medicine before starting them. I'm not sure I can handle that.

BME and bioinformatics both sound good to me. I will have to see what I can get into.

 

[jakeislove]

FWIW, I'd still take the steps before graduation. Further research may come up with a program/residency that's a good fit, getting in (and being competitive) is much easier with CS/CK already out of the way.

I'm bored poopless doing anything but medicine but realize everyone else isn't the same. I love medicine and couldn't be happy doing anything else. I hate to see someone get so close and quit but don't believe a miserable doctor can really invest his/herself in helping patients.

My gut says it's better to graduate with the options.

 

[bashir]

Yeah, our handbook states that Step 2 CK must be passed before May in order to graduate, but it doesn't state that there is a specific deadline for taking it. I've only heard that verbally from the dean. I might be able to mention this and ask for an extension since I just didn't know it applied to me.

If I were you I would be in the Dean's office, today if possible, explaining that you had no idea the deadline would apply to you because of the way this is stated in the handbook. Of course you don't want to come across as confrontational but you also want to make sure he knows that this "mix-up" occurred because it doesn't actually apply to you as currently written, regardless of how they intended it. Then say that you want to do everything you can to graduate, but that there are no open slots by October 1 so meeting this deadline is not possible, and ask for his advice on what you should do.

I'm sorry you're so miserable but at this point I'd push through a few more months to get the MD. If your school is like mine you can take a surprising number of non-clinical electives as a fourth year.

 

[saudades]

Hey OP, I didn't read every post on here but just wanted to say I've felt your pain as well as far as the "it gets better next year" thing. I'm a 4th year and haven't really found that to be the case either. There were plenty of times I wanted to quit--I had a tough time throughout medical school (and on top of it, had to take medical leave, which drew it out even more) but was lucky enough to find a specialty that I enjoy and will be entering the match this year. Given my difficulties I don't think my chances of matching are super high but I'm still going to go for it. In your case I would absolutely say FINISH YOUR DEGREE and take CK/CS if you are able. Whatever happens in the future, an MD is better than 3/4 of an MD. Do your research, but if you decide that residency is absolutely not for you, that's ok-- just don't shoot yourself in the foot. Use all the resources you can as far as people at your school, maybe a career counselor, etc. Not saying it won't be tough out there (especially with debt), and I can't offer much help as far as specific careers, but I really don't think all is lost here. Best of luck to you.

 

[chipwhitley]

Hey OP, I didn't read every post on here but just wanted to say I've felt your pain as well as far as the "it gets better next year" thing. I'm a 4th year and haven't really found that to be the case either. There were plenty of times I wanted to quit--I had a tough time throughout medical school (and on top of it, had to take medical leave, which drew it out even more) but was lucky enough to find a specialty that I enjoy and will be entering the match this year. Given my difficulties I don't think my chances of matching are super high but I'm still going to go for it. In your case I would absolutely say FINISH YOUR DEGREE and take CK/CS if you are able. Whatever happens in the future, an MD is better than 3/4 of an MD. Do your research, but if you decide that residency is absolutely not for you, that's ok-- just don't shoot yourself in the foot. Use all the resources you can as far as people at your school, maybe a career counselor, etc. Not saying it won't be tough out there (especially with debt), and I can't offer much help as far as specific careers, but I really don't think all is lost here. Best of luck to you.

Thanks, I really appreciate the support. I'm glad you found a specialty that you enjoy and I hope you match. I definitely plan to complete the MD degree and take the CK and CS.

 

[chipwhitley]

I found out today that two brilliant friends of mine who were doing really well in engineering are quitting to go to med school. This is really disheartening. Maybe medicine is the best it gets?