GRE = Beta Blocker !

[psycholytic]

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Honestly

This is not a joke. I think the only way to get psychology graduate school programs back to where they belong; the student arena, is to boykott the GRE test.

This "measure" is only used as an excuse to reject 300 of the 315 students who apply, without reading their statements.

I , for my part, will not play that game any longer.

What do you guys think?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I think there will be 299 other people who will not be invited for an interview.

Unfortunately it is part of the system, so applicants need to just deal with it. It is kind of like Organic Chemistry as a pre-req for med school....most people don't like it, but everyone has to take it.

-t

 

[50960]

How can you not like O-chem???

 

[dakwegmo]

I'm not trying to defend the GRE, but I'm curious what criteria you think should be used to gauge a potential applicants fitness for graduate school? When you have 300 applications for 5 spots, interviewing every applicant isn't feasible.

Also, I don't think boycotting will do any good, since most graduate schools won't review an application until it's complete, which means they have official copies of your GRE scores. All you're doing by boycotting is reducing your chances of getting in to any program to zero.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

How can you not like O-chem???

I know...i'm weird!

-t

 

[clinpsychgirl]

I'm wasn't the biggest fan of the GRE, and am by no means a fan of ETS, but, unfortunately or not, the GRE is just another hoop to jump through in the application process.

After all, the GRE is not the end of standardized testing- think the licensing exam. It's all part and parcel of the process.

 

[psycholytic]

I find it strange that we all seem to just jump, when we are told to do so.

This way nothing will ever change. And--organic chemistry would actually teach me something, whereas the GRE is simply an instrument that makes people sweat.

The APA should actually do much more for us, of which one thing would be getting rid of the GRE and the other restraining institutions from ripping students off.

Also, if 299 other students would not be invited the program could shut down because there would be noone left.
Then another, more considerate school might take those students and actually teach them something else besides snobbery.

And , --yes,---I like Karl Marx

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Also, if 299 other students would not be invited the program could shut down because there would be noone left.
Then another, more considerate school might take those students and actually teach them something else besides snobbery.

And , --yes,---I like Karl Marx

It didn't work then, and won't work now.



I guess we're stuck with it for awhile. Of course, part of me wants to be like, "well I had to go through it, and you should too"

Ok...not really, but I know some people have thought that!

-t

 

[psycholytic]

I knew, you'd like those

 

[parto123]

"I find it strange that we all seem to just jump, when we are told to do so.

This way nothing will ever change. And--organic chemistry would actually teach me something, whereas the GRE is simply an instrument that makes people sweat."

Most of the people who dislike the use of GRE in applications are the people who did not score well. I doubt schools would care much if these students decided to boycott the GREs.

 

[amy203]

I am no fan of the GRE. I found studying for it to be one of the most tedious and pointless processes I have ever experienced, primarily because I knew I would never need to use geometry again, and I was not studying vocabulary in a way where I would retain any of it. I struggled with anxiety due to years of math avoidance/phobia. It took me over 2 years to pull my math score up from a 300 to a 620. It sucked.

That being said, I don't blame graduate schools for not considering students who are not willing to pull up there scores to that "magic" 600 point. Yes I hate the fact that so many people breeze through the math section while I struggled for years, but I know everyone has weaknesses, and everyone struggles with some area of their application. If you are not willing to struggle, you probably aren't ready for graduate school.

What I kept asking myself when I got fed up with studying was: Would you run a marathon if it were required to get into graduate school? Would you learn to speak Italian? How about Esperanto? Would you do any number of seemingly pointless tasks for the opportunity to do what you love for the rest of your life?

My answer: Hell yes.

 

[Sorg1123]

If you are not willing to struggle, you probably aren't ready for graduate school.

What I kept asking myself when I got fed up with studying was: Would you run a marathon if it were required to get into graduate school? Would you learn to speak Italian? How about Esperanto? Would you do any number of seemingly pointless tasks for the opportunity to do what you love for the rest of your life?

My answer: Hell yes.

Well put amy. I don't view GRE scores as an assessment of ability, but rather as a gauge of how dedicated you are toward achieving your dream.

 

[psycholytic]

That the GRE proofs determination is a joke.

I ask the people who posted here that that would be the proof for determination:

How can one test outweigh 6 years of undergraduate and graduate study in determination...Whatis the explanation for students who drop out and who had high scores, while others stay who had lower scores? But you probably have a good one for that too Sorg1123, huh?

Frankly, you guys bought into the ETS-myth and it does not need further explanation .

 

[PsiKo]

Wishing that the GRE requirement will go away anytime soon is tilting at windmills. In the meantime there are, I think, at least a handful of APA-accredited programs that don't require the GRE. Fielding, for one, comes to mind.

 

[amy203]

psycholytic - with the exception of a few programs, you will not get into graduate school without taking the GRE. If fighting the ETS demon is actually so important to you that you are willing to give up grad school, knock yourself out. Don't let the Man keep you down, buddy...

The rest of us will go to graduate school so we can fulfill our goals of working to improve access to mental health care for low-income populations, or preventing suicide, or helping people who feel hopeless. But your goal sounds good too...

 

[psycholytic]

Yes, PsiKo, I know, but don't you think the others who do require the GRE just do so to have a sheer "instrument" to make it rediculously simple on the committees minds. They don't have to learn about students and don't seem to want to either. That's self-evident since some schools do actually read all applications.
I know someone who had sat on the admissions committee at the department of dentistry at UCLA. He said that admissions had nothing to do with test results, but only with personal liking of the statement or daddy's influence;---so much for the GRE necessity.

 

[psycholytic]

The rest of us will go to graduate school so we can fulfill our goals of working to improve access to mental health care for low-income populations, or preventing suicide, or helping people who feel hopeless. But your goal sounds good too...


How about helping people to fullfill their goals? Is that something a psychologist should think about and support????

 

[perfektspace]

The rest of us will go to graduate school so we can fulfill our goals of working to improve access to mental health care for low-income populations, or preventing suicide, or helping people who feel hopeless. But your goal sounds good too...

I think your goals are a bit selfish.

I was hoping to work with upper class individuals suffering from PTSD because the BMW dealership was out of pearl white and they had to settle for arctic white. Let's get our priorities straight.

 

[Quynh2007]

I hate ETS because they charge an arm and a leg to TAKE the test, then you have to pay $15 per school plus $6 per call and can only order up to 8 schools per call. I mean, c'mon, join the 21st century and have an order online or be willing to accept an unlimited # of schools already!

although it is too late for me since this year is my application cycle, I look forward to the day where some schools, similar to undergraduate, realize that like the SAT, the GREs are not the end all be all and seek to eliminate it from their application.

p.s. why don't they have an ACT version of the GRE?

 

[50960]

I have to admit the GRE is total BS. I am a lucky one who did not have to take it because I went to school in the UK, but I am fully aware of how useless it is. I also feel we should give psycholytic a little more credit for what he/she is proposing, and a little less scorn; my personal 2cents.

 

[psycholytic]

In regards to perfectsspace

"I think your goals are a bit selfish.

I was hoping to work with upper class individuals suffering from PTSD because the BMW dealership was out of pearl white and they had to settle for arctic white. Let's get our priorities straight. "

Boy, I fear for your future clients if you don't know that the word goals is part of the therapeutic process.

I think you don't understand what you are talking about if your goals just include material things.

Also, your post is exemplary for so many within this field but it still sadens me everytime I read something like this;---so many in this field are hyperdefensive, not willing to collaborate (I am not talking about my post here), and very judgemental. That is what I call selfish and those are people I would like to see not to enter any program.

I know, very blunt yet my opinion.

 

[psycholytic]

I have to admit the GRE is total BS. I am a lucky one who did not have to take it because I went to school in the UK, but I am fully aware of how useless it is. I also feel we should give psycholytic a little more credit for what he/she is proposing, and a little less scorn; my personal 2cents.

Thanks for at least showing a willingness to think about what I mentioned 🙂

 

[psycholytic]

I have to admit the GRE is total BS. I am a lucky one who did not have to take it because I went to school in the UK, but I am fully aware of how useless it is. I also feel we should give psycholytic a little more credit for what he/she is proposing, and a little less scorn; my personal 2cents.

I hate ETS because they charge an arm and a leg to TAKE the test, then you have to pay $15 per school plus $6 per call and can only order up to 8 schools per call. I mean, c'mon, join the 21st century and have an order online or be willing to accept an unlimited # of schools already!

although it is too late for me since this year is my application cycle, I look forward to the day where some schools, similar to undergraduate, realize that like the SAT, the GREs are not the end all be all and seek to eliminate it from their application.

p.s. why don't they have an ACT version of the GRE?

You are my person. You obviously gave it some thought and not went through the process just being numb. It is a money machine, based on strategies used during the 40's. I believe if admission committees would actually take their time to read more applications, the quality of students might be higher and more interesting in terms of mature personality 😉

 

[perfektspace]

Grade inflation being what it is, schools have to some alternate form of objective data to judge an application. I figure the combination of GRE and GPA gives the admissions committee a composite idea of your academic abilities. One can help balance out the other a bit. Good GPA at a tough school may somewhat balance out weaker GRE's and vice versa.

 

[psycholytic]

In order to achieve something like eliminating the GRE one strategy could be to apply to 10 schools you are interested in and to 5 additional ones you are not. The later would then also receive a letter stating that you are unwilling to take the test because of its prooven uselessness.
If enough people do this it might work.

 

[PsychoEm]

i hate the ETS, primarily for all of the red tape and ridiculous expenses, but i think there needs to be SOME standard guidelines. or else how would the committees be able to discern among applicants? at this level, everyone has good grades, etc. if someone cant do basic algebra (i.e. very low math score), wouldnt that effect their stats capabilities?

 

[50960]

Not really. Stats is more about knowing what they do, how they do it, what they mean, how to choose the right analyses etc.. If you think you will be calculating ANOVAs or R2 by hand after school you are wrong; that is what software is for. Most health professions have their own entrance exams like the MCAT etc.. Psychology is stuck in the academic, and should move to the health professions model. We should have our own entrance exam for psychologist school whether it be PsyD or PhD.

 

[PsychoEm]

We should have our own entrance exam for psychologist school whether it be PsyD or PhD.

like the subject gre?

 

[psycholytic]

I TOTALLY AGREE !!!!

That would be actually an appropriate measure. Very good!👍

Not really. Stats is more about knowing what they do, how they do it, what they mean, how to choose the right analyses etc.. If you think you will be calculating ANOVAs or R2 by hand after school you are wrong; that is what software is for. Most health professions have their own entrance exams like the MCAT etc.. Psychology is stuck in the academic, and should move to the health professions model. We should have our own entrance exam for psychologist school whether it be PsyD or PhD.

 

[amy203]

The rest of us will go to graduate school so we can fulfill our goals of working to improve access to mental health care for low-income populations, or preventing suicide, or helping people who feel hopeless. But your goal sounds good too...


How about helping people to fullfill their goals? Is that something a psychologist should think about and support????

I wasted so much time being pissed about the GRE. Being angry about it was acually a really good way to avoid studying. I looked up articles about how well it predicts sucess in graduate school, I tried to figure out how to get out of taking it, I cried a lot and felt hopeless. And then I buckled down and took the damn thing. That is the best way to fulfill your goals if you want to get into graduate school.

I'm sorry if I sounded dismissive, but I assume that the goals you want achieve as a psychologist are much more important to you than "beating" ETS. They are an evil, evil organization, but there are much greater evils in the world and I think part of growing up is learning to choose your battles.

Also, you understand that schools reject 300 of 315 applicants because of lack of funding or space, right? It's not because they are evil or lazy. It's just that they can only take so many people. The application process is disheartening because the odds against you are so high, but I don't think this is anyone's fault. Ph.D. programs are designed to be small, in order to provide a better education. I wouldn't want to go to graduate school with 300 people! If nothing else, the programs wouldn’t be able to provide funding if they took too many students. Unfortunately, that means a lot of qualified applicants get turned away. It's just the nature of the beast, and the entire process is much easier once you make peace with it.

HOWEVER – if you have made peace with the application process and complaining about the GRE isn’t impeding your studying or keeping you from taking the test at all, well, read it and weep:

http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/Aug97/GRE.study.ssl.html

Stupid GRE.

 

[amy203]

I think your goals are a bit selfish.

I was hoping to work with upper class individuals suffering from PTSD because the BMW dealership was out of pearl white and they had to settle for arctic white. Let's get our priorities straight.

I teared up a bit just reading this. Truly, these poor, poor people ("poor" being a metaphorical term) truly need our help too. Thank you for reminding me!

 

[perfektspace]

I teared up a bit just reading this. Truly, these poor, poor people ("poor" being a metaphorical term) truly need our help too. Thank you for reminding me!

Just trying to help out underserved populations.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I think your goals are a bit selfish.

I was hoping to work with upper class individuals suffering from PTSD because the BMW dealership was out of pearl white and they had to settle for arctic white. Let's get our priorities straight.

To be honest, that will be one of my targeted markets. Private practice will never be a main focus (for me) anyway, so if they are willing to do private pay and book that hour....so be it. A person can't save the world 24 hours a day....and I didn't do all of this to do that. I think a vast majority of the population could benefit from psychotherapy, not just the severe cases. Admittedly I would not *only* take these kind of cases...i'd get bored out of my mind, but I also don't want to have a schedule that just grinds me into the ground.

I don't see anything wrong with working in a place like West Palm Beach, treating some rich housewives, and doing some (more meaningful ) work on the side. It sounds like a pretty nice way to make a living.

-t

 

[perfektspace]

To be honest, that will be one of my targeted markets. Private practice will never be a main focus (for me) anyway, so if they are willing to do private pay and book that hour....so be it. A person can't save the world 24 hours a day....and I didn't do all of this to do that. I think a vast majority of the population could benefit from psychotherapy, not just the severe cases.

I don't see anything wrong with working in a place like West Palm Beach, treating rich housewives, and doing some work on the side. It sounds like a pretty nice way to make a living.

-t

Sounds good to me... I'm in! Nice way to circumvent health insurance hassles and makes some good money if you can get your foot in that type of market.

You'll also need to have a doggy day care on site and a supply of expensive bottled water.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Sounds good to me... I'm in! Nice way to circumvent health insurance hassles and makes some good money if you can get your foot in that type of market.

You'll also need to have a doggy day care on site and a supply of expensive bottled water.

I'm a Work Smarter, Not Harder kind of guy.

As for the doggy day care and expensive water....that is just meeting market needs. I learned in business that if the client wants something, and is willing to pay (what I ask) for it......I'll be willing to work with them on it. Put aside some sq footage, hire an hourly worker, charge for the extra services....AND get the business, sounds like a plan. Even if I break even or lose a bit of money from the 'extras'.....as long as I stay booked, it is a worthwhile investment.

-t

 

[50960]

"To be honest, that will be one of my targeted markets. Private practice will never be a main focus (for me) anyway, so if they are willing to do private pay and book that hour....so be it. A person can't save the world 24 hours a day....and I didn't do all of this to do that. I think a vast majority of the population could benefit from psychotherapy, not just the severe cases. Admittedly I would not *only* take these kind of cases...i'd get bored out of my mind, but I also don't want to have a schedule that just grinds me into the ground.

I don't see anything wrong with working in a place like West Palm Beach, treating some rich housewives, and doing some (more meaningful ) work on the side. It sounds like a pretty nice way to make a living.

-t"

Amen buddy...when you are rich remember who was nice to you on SDN😀

Honestly I am getting a bit tired of "we all have to be more bleeding heart than the next guy" to fit in as a mental health provider. I like working in primary care not because I have a deep desire to work with the indigent, immigrant or lower SES population, but because I like working in primary care!!

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Amen buddy...when you are rich remember who was nice to you on SDN😀

Honestly I am getting a bit tired of "we all have to be more bleeding heart than the next guy" to fit in as a mental health provider. I like working in primary care not because I have a deep desire to work with the indigent, immigrant or lower SES population, but because I like working in primary care!!

I got ya covered!

Networking is king in business (what we do is a business, not a bleeding heart club)....bc you never know. I've found people jobs, swung biz deals, and met some great people just because I took the time.

Work Smarter, Not Harder. 😉

-t

ps. Wow...i can't spell...time to call it a week!

 

[amy203]

Hmmm, we seem to be getting a bit off topic here. Maybe an MOD or Advisor should step in... Oh, wait.

Back on topic - it's fine if your goal is just to make money or be successful. My point is that those goals are more important than taking down ETS.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Hmmm, we seem to be getting a bit off topic here. Maybe an MOD or Advisor should step in... Oh, wait.

Back on topic - it's fine if your goal is just to make money or be successful. My point is that those goals are more important than taking down ETS.

Oops!



I think psisci was onto something with suggesting a psych specific exam. The subject test is fine for some stuff, but it needs to be taken further. GPAT anyone?

It is an uphill battle because ETS has something developed (no more research $ needed), TWO tests actually (2 charges!), they cornered the market (no ACT vs SAT), and they have a captive audience (it is req. for admission). I'd like something more true to what is needed in a clinician, but I don't think it'd make it through without some serious pressure from the instituations....the grad students really don't have any leverage.

-t

 

[psycholytic]

I wasted so much time being pissed about the GRE. Being angry about it was acually a really good way to avoid studying. I looked up articles about how well it predicts sucess in graduate school, I tried to figure out how to get out of taking it, I cried a lot and felt hopeless. And then I buckled down and took the damn thing. That is the best way to fulfill your goals if you want to get into graduate school.

I'm sorry if I sounded dismissive, but I assume that the goals you want achieve as a psychologist are much more important to you than "beating" ETS. They are an evil, evil organization, but there are much greater evils in the world and I think part of growing up is learning to choose your battles.

Also, you understand that schools reject 300 of 315 applicants because of lack of funding or space, right? It's not because they are evil or lazy. It's just that they can only take so many people. The application process is disheartening because the odds against you are so high, but I don't think this is anyone's fault. Ph.D. programs are designed to be small, in order to provide a better education. I wouldn't want to go to graduate school with 300 people! If nothing else, the programs wouldn’t be able to provide funding if they took too many students. Unfortunately, that means a lot of qualified applicants get turned away. It's just the nature of the beast, and the entire process is much easier once you make peace with it.

HOWEVER – if you have made peace with the application process and complaining about the GRE isn’t impeding your studying or keeping you from taking the test at all, well, read it and weep:

http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/Aug97/GRE.study.ssl.html

Stupid GRE.

Sorry, but you completely missed the point, since this isn't about numbers of admits but the process of how students are admitted.

 

[Psyclops]

Read up on range restriction, or look at the thread about qualit of PhD student that should show you that the GRE can be unpredicitve of success of those admitted and still be a good criterion to include among the many they use to consider applicants for admission.

I'm surprised it wasn't mentioned in that little blurb from cornell, I bet you Sternberg mentioned this in his article.

 

[amy203]

Read up on range restriction, or look at the thread about qualit of PhD student that should show you that the GRE can be unpredicitve of success of those admitted and still be a good criterion to include among the many they use to consider applicants for admission.

I'm surprised it wasn't mentioned in that little blurb from cornell, I bet you Sternberg mentioned this in his article.

Restricted range must have been an issue, especially since the study was conducted at Yale, but the lead the author was still willing to make some very strong statements against the GRE. My take from the articles I read was that it would very difficult to determine whether the GRE predicts graduate school success, because you would have to send students with a wide range of scores (say, 600 to 1600) to the same graduate school and see how they did (and I doubt any schools would agree to this). Even this approach wouldn't control for a number of issues.

So we have this test that MAYBE predicts a few things but maybe doesn't and schools keep using it because it's the best option they have. Even ETS says that GRE scores should never be used as the basis to make initial cuts, but many schools use this method.

 

[amy203]

Sorry, but you completely missed the point, since this isn't about numbers of admits but the process of how students are admitted.

You stated in your very first post that admissions committees use GRE scores as an "excuse" to reject 300 of the 315 students who apply, and have used terms such as "snobbery" in many of your posts. My point is that admissions have to reject 300 of the applicants who apply. Also, number of admits plays a huge role in the process of how students are admitted - you can't talk about one and ignore the other.

Obviously, I don't like the GRE, especially if it is used as a sole indicator of whether a person should or shouldn't be admitted. However: I recently spoke with a professor on the graduate admissions committee at my undergraduate university. She said that, out of 300 applications, they usually end up with 100 who look like they would do very well in graduate school. Somehow, they have to cull that list down to 5.

Would I really blame a committee for not choosing me as one of the 5 if my math score was still a 300? Um, no. I studied and pulled it up.

 

[50960]

Move this to the undergrad GRE thread please.