Guns in the ED

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I used to be OK with our security and police carrying guns in the ED, now I am not so sure. It seems like there should be guns at the door to prevent dangerous people from getting in but once inside the ED there doesn't seem to be a need for firearms. As pointed out many times in the tread there are many risks with carrying guns in the ED. I am all for walking from the car to the ED with a gun but once inside store it in your locker until the walk back to the car.

I would rather have a K-9 unit in the immediate vicinity of the ED for security. That's one police officer (the canine) who wouldn't be running the other way.


As a future physician, I would not advocate for physicans carrying firearms in the ED. I support the 2nd amendment. I own plenty of firearms. And, I feel completely comfortable handling any of them when 1) hunting. 2) plinking. 3) driving in sketchy areas. 4) running poachers off my family's land. 5) wearing a pickle suit. (BDU's) It's just a conflict of my personal intrests to be carrying a firearm in the ED/hospital. What I keep in my vehicle/house is my own business. And, since nobody here is talking about limiting the 2nd amendment beyond my own personal boundaries, I'm good.
 
Hernandez,

What I'm honestly trying to do is prompt some caution, and get people to plan for the aftermath. I don't have a problem with appropriately-trained people carrying weapons for their own defense... I've done it myself, and I wish more people did it. What I want people to do is plan for the worst case. Think about this: surviving the incident on the street, only to die in prison after years of confinement and regular sodomy. Failing to anticipate the legal fallout could land you in that latter circumstance

A person who carries a weapon needs to have a specific plan for the moments and days immediately after the shooting. This list is not all-inclusive... all of us have the financial means to consult an attorney, and there's no excuse for not doing so. I am not an attorney, so don't take this as legal advice.

  • They should know what to say, not only to bystanders to create solid witnesses for their own defense, but what not to say. Ayoob's courses come highly recommended in this regard.

  • They should consider that they may be arrested, and could even spend the night/weekend in jail. Getting put in cuffs and placed in the back of a cruiser is a new, frightening, and humiliating experience if one has never been there. They'll be fingerprinted, and depending on the police department, may be treated just like a criminal. That's a very disconcerting and intimidating experience for most physicians. Don't crack... it's only temporary.

  • They should otherwise immediately shut up, lawyer-up, and only discuss the incident with people who cannot be compelled to testify against them (this varies by state, but "priviledged communications" generally includes their lawyer, and can include psychiatrist, spouse, minister, etc). The police may or may not use various ploys to loosen them up and get them to talk about it, but while heresay is generally not admissable, "spontaneous utterances" are. When given the option to "remain silent," always take it.

  • They should have a personal attorney they can call 24/7, and they should have sufficient "disaster funds" to be able to post bail (if necessary) and retain specialty counsel if needed.

  • They should have an exact duplicate of their carry pistol in their safe at home, complete with carry rigs (remember, the police will have confiscated the one used in the shooting). When vengeful relatives or fellow gang members are skulking about looking for revenge, that's not the time to be learning a new pistol... it pays to have a duplicate of that with which one is most expert.

  • They should expect some psychological effects after the shooting. Unless one has some underlying sociopathy, killing another human being at close range is going to shake them up. I'd recommend two books to help understand. This one, and this one. If your state "privileges" psychologists or psychiatrists, consider consulting one if you're having problems.

  • They should expect to be smeared in the press. If the local bird-cage liner is anti-gun in any way (most metropolitan newspapers), expect the paper to splash lurid details of any bad things in the shooter's past across their pages, and they may even write sympathetic portrayals of the deceased. Ex-wives may come crawling out of the woodwork for TV interviews... one should not count on being perrmitted, either by the paper or their attorney, to tell their side of the story.

  • They should expect job difficulties. As we're all painfully aware, hospitals in general are very sensitive to bad publicity. If one is a contract physician or independent contractor, that physician basically works "at will," and can be terminated very easily. Even if partners in a democratic group, the hospital may come to that group and force the partners to buy out the shooter and invoke their "60 day clause" or lose their contract. As ED physicians, the bottom line is that there we have very little job security.

In short, a person who shoots another in self-defense should expect to be attacked in every possible way, particularly if they're a high-profile public figure like a physician. The likelihood that ANY of us are going to find ourselves in that circumstance is vanishly small... but you'd hate to be that fraction of a percent, and not have planned for it. You'll be stressed enough after the incident itself without having improvise all of this on-the-fly.

If, after considering all of this, you decide to carry... by all means do so, but know what you're doing, and take steps to prepare.

This is a very good post, and I have one small qualm with it your use of the phrase "vanishly small" since the likelihood is higher in an ED than in normal circumstances, but I'm not going to sit here and put up charts and graphs to dispute what amounts to a fraction of a percent increase. I appreciate the prepare for the worst, even the worst aftermath mentality and I do believe this is a highly intelligent response as a caution to those who do wish to carry to protect themselves. And it should be in the back of everyone's mind who carries, especially in more states with much more stringent gun laws. 👍
 
I have been waiting and wondering when anyone would mention the incident that happened in my ED just 2 weeks ago. The link to the article in the Detroit Free Press is below:
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061207/NEWS01/612070356/1001/NEWS

So what about this situation, when the unarmed patient suddenly becomes armed because he stole a police officer's weapon? What the story doesn't say is that the officer's partner basically ran away, knocking over a mayo stand.

BTW there is an attending that works in our ED that I am absolutely convinced carries who was actually working when this happened. The only person who got off a shot was a Wayne County Sheriff after the guy had ditched his hostage.

I used to be OK with our security and police carrying guns in the ED, now I am not so sure. It seems like there should be guns at the door to prevent dangerous people from getting in but once inside the ED there doesn't seem to be a need for firearms. As pointed out many times in the tread there are many risks with carrying guns in the ED. I am all for walking from the car to the ED with a gun but once inside store it in your locker until the walk back to the car.


There are ways to lessen the likelyhood of this happening. The easiest (which dosent apply in the case of police/security) is to simply always keep the weapon well concealed. No one can take a weapon that they dont know exists.

In the case of police/security/COs, they can use certain special holsters that will retain the weapon unless it is drawn in a very particular manner. These retention holsters are pretty popular amongst cops, but by no means universal. I also think it wise for anyone carrying a plainly visable gun to also carry one concealed. In my experience, most police officers do this. It is also my understanding that there are certain self defence techniques that can be used for weapons retention that are often learned in police academies, although I know nothing about how specifically this is done.

Having a weapon taken is certainly a scenario that applies more to officers carrying openly than to your average citizen carrying concealed (some states even have laws that say that the weapon must be concealed...).
 
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