GWU vs. Argosy DC PsyD

[Nick MSW]

I have narrowed down my list of PsyD programs to apply to over the next couple of years. It will be GWU, Argosy in Washington DC, and Loyola MD. GWU and Argosy are very close in driving distance, so I would prefer attending one of them. I know GWU is mostly psychodynamic based, which may be considered a limitation, but Argosy does not have the best reputation (although it does seem to have a good comprehensive program).

Another consideration is that in the first year at GWU, I should be able to work full-time on-campus, thus providing me with one year of 90% tuition reimbursement.

I enjoy studying the psychodynamic framework, but worry it may have its limitations. My goals are to work in the federal government performing assessments and treatment and possibly part-time in private practice. Eventually, I may work toward a full-time private practice. Does having a PsyD from Argosy have any serious limitations? Most of what I read seems anecdotal.

If anyone had to choose between the two, given the pros and cons, which would you choose?

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[erg923]

I have narrowed down my list of PsyD programs to apply to over the next couple of years. It will be GWU, Argosy in Washington DC, and Loyola MD. GWU and Argosy are very close in driving distance, so I would prefer attending one of them. I know GWU is mostly psychodynamic based, which may be considered a limitation, but Argosy does not have the best reputation (although it does seem to have a good comprehensive program).

Another consideration is that in the first year at GWU, I should be able to work full-time on-campus, thus providing me with one year of 90% tuition reimbursement.

I enjoy studying the psychodynamic framework, but worry it may have its limitations. My goals are to work in the federal government performing assessments and treatment and possibly part-time in private practice. Eventually, I may work toward a full-time private practice. Does having a PsyD from Argosy have any serious limitations? Most of what I read seems anecdotal.

If anyone had to choose between the two, given the pros and cons, which would you choose?

There are lots of threads on here dealing with Argosy's poor reputation, high cost and poor match rate. Bottom line is that its not as University, its a business...and it acts as such.

 

[Change Agent]

I don't know much about the DC Argosy program. I do know that Argosy overall gets bad reviews but that may just be generalizations against free standing institution based PsyD programs.

I do know about the GWU program. It is very heavily psychodynamic but I don't consider it a limitation. Other approaches are taught and if you're interesting in additional learning or supervision under any particular modality it is certainly possible. As far as learning assessments, GWU has a very strong program. I would go as far as arguing that it is stronger than other programs in the area, PsyD and PhD just based on feedback I've heard from externship and internship experiences. But having said all that, I have heard that Argosy has stronger relationships with local affiliate sites so you would probably get a higher quality practical experience there at that level. But the GW program has an on-site clinic that is also strong...

Ultimately, any program is what you make it and they all have their strengths and weaknesses. While I don't think that a PsyD at GWU would limit any of your career goals, if you want broader theoretical exposure you should follow your instincts and go to Argosy. You have to go with the program that offers the most of what you want to learn. Don't worry about the rest, it will come.

 

[deleted176373]

I have talked at length with an Argosy student from DC, she was pretty positive about the program. Mean/median time to completion is 5.6 years but there is a downside, nearly 25% attrition rate!!! (4.41% per year) and only 2/3's have been licensed since graduation (1997-2005).

GWU is not much better in this respect, but it is slightly more competitive at placing students in APA accredited internships, but once again only 69% have been licensed since graduating from 2001 - 2006. I do think that some of the faculty is outstanding at both schools, as I have had the pleasure to interact with past and present faculty members from both colleges.

Look closely at the outcome data and balance your decision with facts.

Mark

 

[Nick MSW]

My biggest concern is licensure stats. Mark, as you indicated, GWU lists the following:

% Licensed / Graduated Who Provided Information 55/80; 69%
% Licensed / Total Graduated 2000-2006 55/239; 23%

Argosy has better results:

62.9% of known graduates are licensed

What are all of these non-licensed graduates doing? Can you really do anything without a license? What good is the degree without a license?

 

[A Gooz]

What are all of these non-licensed graduates doing? Can you really do anything without a license? What good is the degree without a license?

I can't answer your last set of questions because I don't know, but I wouldn't be so concerned with with licensure rates for the following reasons:


Many respectable Psy.D. programs have licensure rates in the ballpark of 2/3. After doing a lot of homework and going on four interviews (at four respected Psy.D. programs that all had 60-80% licensure rates) I learned that a lot of schools don't focus on licensure. The prevailing wisdom seems to be, if you're remotely bright and want to get licensed (whereas a good chunk of students don't even bother), you can do it.

Every one of these schools, instead, points to their internship match rates as the best judge of the school. The logic being that internship is a very competitive process by which students from every Psy.D. program are competing for the same spots around the country. Therefore if a school has a respectable internship match rate (80-90%), they can be considered more competitive than a school with a lower rate.

Oh and every Psy.D. program I have come across has a 90%+ attrition rate. 25% at Argosy DC? That's alarming.

 

[A Gooz]

% Licensed / Graduated Who Provided Information 55/80; 69%
% Licensed / Total Graduated 2000-2006 55/239; 23%

That 23% may look alarming, but look more carefully at what the numbers are saying.

80 out of 239 responded to their questionnaire asking for licensure information. 55 of those 80 said they were licensed. So they can only say for sure that 55 out of 239 (23%) are licensed, while the likelihood is that its much higher because most people didn't even respond. Maybe it should be more concerning that they have such low response rates from their own students?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Many respectable Psy.D. programs have licensure rates in the ballpark of 2/3.

Licensure rate data are more useful year to year, as often the latter year students aren't license-eligible yet. For instance a 2006 cohort most likely would not be license eligible until 2011 (assuming 4 + 1). With that being said, I'd be concerned if a program isn't at least 85%-90% for license-eligible graduates.

 

[Nick MSW]

[/QUOTE] Oh and every Psy.D. program I have come across has a 90%+ attrition rate. 25% at Argosy DC? That's alarming.[/QUOTE]

I must be interpreting these numbers incorrectly. Wouldn't 90% attrition rate indicate a rate of 9/10 students leaving the program? Based on the point you seem to be making, I must not understand this statistic. Could you clarify?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Oh and every Psy.D. program I have come across has a 90%+ attrition rate. 25% at Argosy DC? That's alarming.

I must be interpreting these numbers incorrectly. Wouldn't 90% attrition rate indicate a rate of 9/10 students leaving the program? Based on the point you seem to be making, I must not understand this statistic. Could you clarify?

I believe the numbers are inverted, and s/he meant to say 10% compared to 25%. Cohort size is also a factor as a larger cohort combined with a larger attrition rate can create a disproportionate amount of people who start but do not complete.

A 5 student cohort per year, over 10 years @10% = 5 students don't complete.

A 50 student cohort per year, over 10 years @25% = 125 students don't complete.

 

[Nick MSW]

Ok, that does make more sense.

After doing more research on these programs, I discovered that Argosy is nationally ranked at #151 of all PhD/PsyD programs compared to GWU at #185. I find this somewhat significant given the reputation of Argosy vs. GWU. Maybe it is simply because Argosy is a comprehensive program versus GWU's psychodynamic focus. Given all the PhD/PsyD programs in the U.S., these rankings are not that bad. Argosy DC is actually the top ranked Argosy PsyD program in the nation, according to:

http://www.socialpsychology.org/clinrank.htm

 

[erg923]

So you think there is a appreciable difference between a program ranked 151 out of 217 vs one ranked 185 based on EPPP scores? The differences in scores was 6 points!!! Statisical signficantance does not equate to meaninful real-world signficance.

 

[psybee]

Ok, that does make more sense.

After doing more research on these programs, I discovered that Argosy is nationally ranked at #151 of all PhD/PsyD programs compared to GWU at #185. I find this somewhat significant given the reputation of Argosy vs. GWU. Maybe it is simply because Argosy is a comprehensive program versus GWU's psychodynamic focus. Given all the PhD/PsyD programs in the U.S., these rankings are not that bad. Argosy DC is actually the top ranked Argosy PsyD program in the nation, according to:

http://www.socialpsychology.org/clinrank.htm

Rankings (including the US News ones) should be taken with a grain of salt, but for clin psych programs we're talking about a salt lick! Especially on a list that puts Argosy over Rutgers or Baylor for top PsyD.

How are the programs you're interested thought of in your area? Do you have any thoughts on places you may eventually like to work--how frequently are Argosy or GWU grads employed there? How do students feel about thier experience? Are there the kind of clinical experiences YOU want to have? And of course internship match rates, years to graduation, cost, all are important factors.

And then what is the environment like? I was accepted to some programs far more prestigious than ones that turned me down, because I was not a good fit for the less "selective" ones that rejected me and I ended up not going to the most selective school I was accepted to, because of personal preference "fit" type factors that influenced how I ranked the programs, what would work best for me.

 

[Nick MSW]

How are the programs you're interested thought of in your area? Do you have any thoughts on places you may eventually like to work--how frequently are Argosy or GWU grads employed there? How do students feel about thier experience? Are there the kind of clinical experiences YOU want to have? And of course internship match rates, years to graduation, cost, all are important factors.

At this point, I am torn between working with children/families and possibly a psychiatric hospital setting. Whatever steady job I acquire, I would work part-time in private practice. Eventually, I see myself working in private practice full-time.

I have to admit that part of my desire to earn a PsyD is personal ambition. I will an LCSW in the next year, but I want to continue advancing my education in clinical practice and assessment. But I think anyone who completes a doctorate program has to have a high level of personal motivation aside from any other more specific reasons.

I am curious how the federal government or psychiatric hospitals feel about graduates from Argosy versus GWU.

 

[HopefulStudent8]

At this point, I am torn between working with children/families and possibly a psychiatric hospital setting. Whatever steady job I acquire, I would work part-time in private practice. Eventually, I see myself working in private practice full-time.

I have to admit that part of my desire to earn a PsyD is personal ambition. I will an LCSW in the next year, but I want to continue advancing my education in clinical practice and assessment. But I think anyone who completes a doctorate program has to have a high level of personal motivation aside from any other more specific reasons.

I am curious how the federal government or psychiatric hospitals feel about graduates from Argosy versus GWU.

The psychologists in my department (at a New England Psychiatric Hospital) have often discussed their disappointment with the lack of opportunities for psychologists to do clinical work at the hospital. There aren't even opportunities for our research faculty to do a few hours here and there for supplemental income if they wanted to. The fact is that its not cost effective to hire psychologists when the hospitals can just hire social workers. This hospital is fairly progressive and is thinking of incorporating psychologists in some way on the units, but that is going to be a far way off if it ever happens. The faculty here have informed me that they don't know of any psychiatric hospitals where psychologists can work on the units. All of the psychologists in our large, 10 unit hospital, are employed in research.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I have seen a mixed bag in regard to psychologists providing direct therapy in a hospital setting. In a typical hospital, I think you'll be hard pressed to find purely clinical positions for psychologists (outside being a neuropsychologist). There is definitely a preference for masters-level providers to handle the bulk of the therapy, while psychologists handle more management/administrative duties. I think there is flexibility to negotiate more clinical time, but hospitals aren't going to go out of their way to pay a psychologist to do therapy.

There is a big push within the VA system to provide direct therapy services to Veterans, which includes most staff psychologists, though their time is split amongst a number of other areas such as supervision, research, assessments, and more administratively-geared responsibilities. I know some staff psychologists that purposefully structure their time to do therapy, while others prefer to focus on other areas. If you want the majority of your time spent doing therapy, a masters-level position is probably a better route.

I know a few psychologists that do a good bit of individual and group therapy, BUT there are far fewer of them than there are masters-level providers. Those positions tend to require supervision/administrative responsibilities, and any therapy work is added on when able or if there are coverage problems.

 

[Nick MSW]

I have seen a mixed bag in regard to psychologists providing direct therapy in a hospital setting. In a typical hospital, I think you'll be hard pressed to find purely clinical positions for psychologists (outside being a neuropsychologist). There is definitely a preference for masters-level providers to handle the bulk of the therapy, while psychologists handle more management/administrative duties. I think there is flexibility to negotiate more clinical time, but hospitals aren't going to go out of their way to pay a psychologist to do therapy.
I know a few psychologists that do a good bit of individual and group therapy, BUT there are far fewer of them than there are masters-level providers. Those positions tend to require supervision/administrative responsibilities, and any therapy work is added on when able or if there are coverage problems.

It seems counterintuitive for psychologists to be limited to management/administrative duties. I understand them doing research and assessments, but I would want to take advantage of someone trained as a "clinical psychologist" and use them in clinical positions.

Maybe I wrongfully assume that if I was trained as a clinical psychologist as oppose to simply an LCSW, I would be a more competent clinician. To be honest, I mostly want to do therapy. But, I want to be as well-trained a therapist as possible. Many of my MSW classes were a waste of time. When I look at the class listing of doctorate programs, it seems like the best training possible.