Handgun selection 101 questions

[rsgillmd]

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I'm looking into getting a handgun for keeping at home, as well as CCW use when appropriate. I'll tell you what I've fired and what I've been recommended. I was hoping the gun owners in this group could offer some advice as well. Keep in mind I did not shoot a handgun until last weekend at an introductory level course. For the level 2 course I need to have a handgun, holster, and some other things.

I shot a Glock 17 (? -- 9 mm) on day 1. It didn't feel very comfortable, and it was a little hard to retract the slide. The instructor gave me a Springfield 9 mm to fire on the second day. That felt more comfortable and easier to use. I don't know if it was the gun or the fact that I had already shot a bunch of rounds, but I did better on the second day.

One of my colleagues, who had recommended the introductory class to me, recommended getting a Sig Sauer P229 .40 caliber. It feels OK, but that slide is really hard for me to retract. I don't know if this is something I can get used to with practice or not. Anyone else have this same problem?

The guy at the range suggested a Smith and Wesson M&P .40 caliber. They have a 9 mm version that I rent to try on their range. He says the recoil is not much different between the 9 mm and the .40 caliber, but obviously the .40 caliber has better stopping power. Does anyone have any experience with a Smith and Wesson M&P .40 caliber? Advantages/disadvantages? It seems from an internet search that the Smith and Wesson M&P is double action only, where as the Sig Sauer P229 is double action. Does the slightly longer trigger pull with a double action only make a practical difference in rapid firing as compared to a double action handgun?

Do you recommend I look into something else?

Any advice you can give would be appreciated.

 

[loveoforganic]

Whatever you do, get a laser.

 

[periopdoc]

I would recommend a revolver until you get more comfortable shooting. Then, if you are still set on an auto, borrow/ rent as many different models as possible from friends and ranges until you find out what is really comfortable in your hand (you should do the same with revolvers before you buy). The revolver is much more mechanically foolproof and will let you focus on the mechanics of shooting instead of the mechanics of the gun.

The gun that has the greatest stopping power is the one that is most comfortable in your hands and allows you to place the most shots where you want them to go. A 50 cal Desert Eagle has more "stopping power" than my Colt Python 357, but I cannot shoot it accurately thus it is less effective for me. In all honesty, my wife can probably do more damage with her 38 special than I can with my 357. She definitely has done more damage with her 30-06 than I have/ can with my 338.

A couple of threads on the subject.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=572916

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=485939

- pod

 

[periopdoc]

Whatever you do, get a laser.

Better yet, learn to shoot.

- pod

 

[pgg]

One of my colleagues, who had recommended the introductory class to me, recommended getting a Sig Sauer P229 .40 caliber. It feels OK, but that slide is really hard for me to retract. I don't know if this is something I can get used to with practice or not. Anyone else have this same problem?

You'll get better at it. There's not much coordination required to pull the slide, but there's a little, and some practice and familiarity with it will help. Also, if it was a new gun that you handled at the counter, it would loosen up and get easier after some use. Most guns are stiff out of the box.

And if you have trouble, resist the urge to rack it by grasping the gun from opposite directions and pushing your arms together (if that makes any sense). Leverage does make it easier that way, and I see people do it all the time, but it's a self-inflicted GSW waiting to happen.

My wife is 5'0" with small hands. She has a Sig P239 in 9mm that she loves.

Periopdoc has good points about revolvers, though lots of people learn on semi-autos. Practice and at least some formal training (which you're doing) are important.

He says the recoil is not much different between the 9 mm and the .40 caliber, but obviously the .40 caliber has better stopping power.

There has been much debate over "stopping power" ... my stance on the matter is that a good 9 mm hollow point round has plenty of stopping power.

Although my favorite gun is a Sig P220 Carry in .45acp, I'd feel safe shooting somebody with the 9mm Gold Dots in my wife's P239.

You don't need a laser, in fact I'd advise against it. Learn to hit what you're aiming at with regular sights.

If it's a home defense gun, I'd consider one with a rail for a light. If not, keep a small, bright flashlight with it.

 

[loveoforganic]

I didn't say learn to shoot with a laser, although that should eventually be part of what you do. Under a stress situation, do you really feel you'd be better off lining up iron sights than getting into stance and finding your dot?

Edit: also agree with the light advice and the 9mm hollowpoint comment

 

[canjosh]

Don't buy without at least putting a few rounds through something H&K! The P7 family is a great carry option.

 

[usnavdoc]

Nothing like breaking up board prep with a gun talk! you are gonna get a thousand answers to this question. IMO Glock 19/sw mp/HKp30

If you dont like the glock 19 the best bang for buck is the smith and wesson mp series. Id get a MP9c. Glock reliability and better ergonomics. They are supposed to come out with a midsize mp9 this fall if you dont like a subcompact.

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/21_39_71/products_id/41347

 

[Savage Henry]

I'm looking into getting a handgun for keeping at home, as well as CCW use when appropriate.

First - I'm not an anesthesiologist (I'm an x-ray tech and a pre-med), so please feel free to delete my post if it's not appropriate for me to be posting here. One of my favorite docs in the world is an anesthesiologist, and that's why I like reading this forum. No offense is intended.

There is some pretty good advice here, and I'd like to add a few more things:

When choosing a weapon for concealed carry, it is as important to purchase a pistol that is easily (and practically) concealable as one that "feels good" to you in the gun store. With enough practice, you can learn to effectively employ any of the weapons mentioned here. You can build up your handstrength or have a gunsmith machine the slide for better grip on that Glock. You can put 5000 rounds of .45 +P+ ammo downrange, until you don't even notice the recoil. No amount of practice or aftermarket tweaks will matter, though, if you leave your "carry" .45 LongSlide stashed in the nightstand because you can't hide the damned thing no matter what you wear.

Imagine the consternation on your face - the delicious irony made manifest - as you're repeatedly bashed over the head with a $3.00 stone axe while your $2000 laser guided hand cannon sits in a drawer at home because it digs into your kidneys when you drive your car, and you're tired of lugging it around. Don't underestimate the comfort factor. The only way to make yourself immune to that is to spend several years with a decent infantry unit.

Another thing that people often overlook is the huge variety of aftermarket options out there for firearms. My older Glock 26 went from my least favorite carry weapon to my favorite with the addition of a Hogue monogrip, a slide lock extension, and a magazine extension. Go to a gun show and look around, talk to some plainclothes cops, and talk to a few different gunsmiths - see what they say. If something is bugging you about a pistol you otherwise like, I guarantee it's bugged someone else who invented a fix for it.

You must also buy a weapon in a caliber you can afford to shoot often. My buddy has a .454 Casull he shoots about as often as Halley's Comet comes around. Those rounds are so expensive you can trade 4 of them for a fresh human kidney in some third world nations.

'Course, if I made attending anesthesiologist wages, I'd thumb my nose at myself and buy an FN FiveseveN.

Happy shooting, Doc, and welcome to the world of us gun nuts.

Semper Fi,

Savage Henry

 

[Salt Creep]

I'm a handgun shooting instructor (NRA certified and taught the state CCW class for 6 years before med school), and I never tell anyone what brand or type of gun they need to get.

You should get what points most naturally for you, what you're most comfortable with, and what you are most accurate with. It's better to hit your target with a .22 than to miss with a .45.

We're all different enough that different pistols will feel a lot better or worse in different hands. That could be why the Glock didn't feel good to you. They're excellent firearms, but I hate shooting them - they don't fit me. I feel like I'm holding a 2x4 with a goofy box sight.

Something I've noticed is that in general, people who like Glocks tend to like Sig's as well. And those who don't tend to like 1911 style pistols and revolvers a little more. I fit the second group - I carry a Taurus .44spl most of the time, but sometimes carry a Beretta Cougar .40 or a Para-Ordinance P12. Those pistols fit me well, and I'm accurate with them. I do wish somebody made a laser for the revolver and the .40 though.

About the laser - I think they're good in their place. It can be remarkably difficult to aim at night in very dark environments. A laser allows for VERY fast target acquisition, especially on follow-up rounds. I like them, but with the caution to never be dependent upon it. Learn to shoot your pistol very well without it first, and only after you're very accurate should you consider it. My wife carries a Taurus titanium .38, and we just put laser grips on it - after she's carried a few years getting very good with it. If you have the money, they're worth considering - assuming you're good enough with the weapon already to shoot well if the laser should fail or become misaligned.

Some pistols to consider (and by that I mean check out & see if you like the feel/fit/etc): Taurus Judge - fires .410 shotgun shells or .45 long colt, available with laser grips installed or can be added later. If you shoot 000 Buck you get 3 pellets from a .410 shell, quite a lot of stopping power there.

Taurus also makes a .40 and .45 that is single/double action and has a picatinny rail at the muzzle end. I prefer single/double, because you get the best of both worlds. If you need the double action shot, it's there. But you still have the control of the single action shot if you can cock it, or on follow-up shots.

The little Kel-Tec P3AT is a very popular and good little gun. .380 ammo is tough to come by & isn't cheap though, which may be a consideration.

I don't buy anything Smith & Wesson sells out of principle, after they sold out to the Clinton administration. They're dead to me.

About size & concealment: if you're creative and buy a few different holsters, it is not difficult to conceal a full-size handgun. I carry my full-size .40 wearing shorts & a T-shirt with no trouble. My .44 has a 2" barrel but isn't small, and I've never had a problem. When I taught the CCW classes, I often had 7-8 pistols concealed on me. When we got to the section on holsters and means of concealment, I'd ask how many the class thought I had & they'd guess 3 at most. You just have to be creative. In the summer, sometimes I'll wear shorts & a T-shirt with an open button-up shirt with the sleeves rolled up over it. That easily conceals a shoulder holster. Things like belly-bands, thunderwear, etc, are quite helpful too, however silly the names are.

Lastly, if you like revolvers, I think they are excellent for carry. FAR less maintenance than an auto, and more reliable. They never jam or misfeed, if you happened to get a dud round (admittedly unlikely, but with possible devastating consequences if ill-prepared) just pull the trigger again instead of clearing it. They're inherently very safe and simple. I'm not worried about carrying 5 rounds instead of 10+. If I fire more than 5 rounds, something is seriously wrong, or I'm in a target-rich environment. A couple well placed .44's or .38+P's will stop a person quickly. Sniper training has demonstrated that people fire more consistently accurately when not using a semi-auto, because you know the shot has to count & you're not relying on having fast follow-up rounds to save your poor marksmanship (it's a subconscious process, and affects very well trained military snipers too). And if I were concerned about needing more ammo, speed loaders are cheap & easy to use with practice. Obviously though, a revolver needs to work for you personally.

That's a long response, but few things interest me more than handguns. 🙂

 

[rsgillmd]

Wow! Thank you everyone. I really appreciate the responses. You've all certainly given me more to think about.

 

[BLADEMDA]

Smith & Wesson 629 Classic .44 magnum with a 6.5" barrel

 

[BLADEMDA]

 

[BLADEMDA]

 

[BLADEMDA]

I'm a handgun shooting instructor (NRA certified and taught the state CCW class for 6 years before med school), and I never tell anyone what brand or type of gun they need to get.

You should get what points most naturally for you, what you're most comfortable with, and what you are most accurate with. It's better to hit your target with a .22 than to miss with a .45.

We're all different enough that different pistols will feel a lot better or worse in different hands. That could be why the Glock didn't feel good to you. They're excellent firearms, but I hate shooting them - they don't fit me. I feel like I'm holding a 2x4 with a goofy box sight.

Something I've noticed is that in general, people who like Glocks tend to like Sig's as well. And those who don't tend to like 1911 style pistols and revolvers a little more. I fit the second group - I carry a Taurus .44spl most of the time, but sometimes carry a Beretta Cougar .40 or a Para-Ordinance P12. Those pistols fit me well, and I'm accurate with them. I do wish somebody made a laser for the revolver and the .40 though.

About the laser - I think they're good in their place. It can be remarkably difficult to aim at night in very dark environments. A laser allows for VERY fast target acquisition, especially on follow-up rounds. I like them, but with the caution to never be dependent upon it. Learn to shoot your pistol very well without it first, and only after you're very accurate should you consider it. My wife carries a Taurus titanium .38, and we just put laser grips on it - after she's carried a few years getting very good with it. If you have the money, they're worth considering - assuming you're good enough with the weapon already to shoot well if the laser should fail or become misaligned.

Some pistols to consider (and by that I mean check out & see if you like the feel/fit/etc): Taurus Judge - fires .410 shotgun shells or .45 long colt, available with laser grips installed or can be added later. If you shoot 000 Buck you get 3 pellets from a .410 shell, quite a lot of stopping power there.

Taurus also makes a .40 and .45 that is single/double action and has a picatinny rail at the muzzle end. I prefer single/double, because you get the best of both worlds. If you need the double action shot, it's there. But you still have the control of the single action shot if you can cock it, or on follow-up shots.

The little Kel-Tec P3AT is a very popular and good little gun. .380 ammo is tough to come by & isn't cheap though, which may be a consideration.

I don't buy anything Smith & Wesson sells out of principle, after they sold out to the Clinton administration. They're dead to me.

About size & concealment: if you're creative and buy a few different holsters, it is not difficult to conceal a full-size handgun. I carry my full-size .40 wearing shorts & a T-shirt with no trouble. My .44 has a 2" barrel but isn't small, and I've never had a problem. When I taught the CCW classes, I often had 7-8 pistols concealed on me. When we got to the section on holsters and means of concealment, I'd ask how many the class thought I had & they'd guess 3 at most. You just have to be creative. In the summer, sometimes I'll wear shorts & a T-shirt with an open button-up shirt with the sleeves rolled up over it. That easily conceals a shoulder holster. Things like belly-bands, thunderwear, etc, are quite helpful too, however silly the names are.

Lastly, if you like revolvers, I think they are excellent for carry. FAR less maintenance than an auto, and more reliable. They never jam or misfeed, if you happened to get a dud round (admittedly unlikely, but with possible devastating consequences if ill-prepared) just pull the trigger again instead of clearing it. They're inherently very safe and simple. I'm not worried about carrying 5 rounds instead of 10+. If I fire more than 5 rounds, something is seriously wrong, or I'm in a target-rich environment. A couple well placed .44's or .38+P's will stop a person quickly. Sniper training has demonstrated that people fire more consistently accurately when not using a semi-auto, because you know the shot has to count & you're not relying on having fast follow-up rounds to save your poor marksmanship (it's a subconscious process, and affects very well trained military snipers too). And if I were concerned about needing more ammo, speed loaders are cheap & easy to use with practice. Obviously though, a revolver needs to work for you personally.

That's a long response, but few things interest me more than handguns. 🙂

Great post. You clearly are well-educated about guns and I agree with you almost 100%. I still love my Smith and Wesson revolvers😉

I have a variety of guns for self-defense and hunting blood suckers; but, at the range the 38 special or 22 revolver works nicely as does the 9 mm semi-auto pistol (ammo is cheap for 38, 22 and 9 mm).

For home defense some think a 12 gauge shotgun ($375 new) is all you need.

If you have the cash guns are a bit addicting; they are toys for big boys and that means you can't own just one.

Blade

 

[BLADEMDA]

Smith & Wesson 629 Classic .44 magnum with a 6.5" barrel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maBJzJgYjto


Watch the video😀😀


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gk0awc6QyHQ

 

[pgg]

Imagine the consternation on your face - the delicious irony made manifest - as you're repeatedly bashed over the head with a $3.00 stone axe while your $2000 laser guided hand cannon sits in a drawer at home because it digs into your kidneys when you drive your car, and you're tired of lugging it around. Don't underestimate the comfort factor. The only way to make yourself immune to that is to spend several years with a decent infantry unit.

This is why a Ruger LCP is on my list ...
- if California ever gets around to issuing me a CCW
- if California ever gets around to adding it to the handgun roster
This state is ridiculous. On the bright side, the roster will probably fall to the courts in the aftermath of McDonald, and CA did finally issue my military AWP so I can now bring my evil scaaaary black guns into the state. I'm the envy of all my non-military gun-nut friends.

'Course, if I made attending anesthesiologist wages, I'd thumb my nose at myself and buy an FN FiveseveN.

My brother has one of those, and just bought an AR57 a couple weeks ago. Nice guns. The 50-round box magazine for the AR57 is cool. Relatively expensive ammo though, essentially one choice for the civilian market. The Brady ******s hate it with a passion (handheld assault pistol armorpiercing copkiller whargarbl) so I suppose owning one just to spite them is reason enough.

 

[pgg]

No gun thread is complete without some disagreement and pot stirring ... 🙂

Taurus Judge - fires .410 shotgun shells or .45 long colt, available with laser grips installed or can be added later. If you shoot 000 Buck you get 3 pellets from a .410 shell, quite a lot of stopping power there.

I agree with everything you said except this. A .410 shotgun shell is absofreakinlutely ******ed for self defense, 000 buck out of a Taurus is good for just a few inches of penetration, totally inadequate.

The Taurus Judge is a silly gimmick. If you want a .45, get a .45. If you want a shotgun, get a shotgun.

If you want a conversation piece or an all-in-one camping gun to fire .45 bullets at mean people and shot at slithery things, I guess you could make an argument for a Taurus. I don't understand the fascination with that thing. They may as well put a bayonet lug on the Judge, 'cause you might need it if you shoot someone with a .410 shotgun shell.

/rant

 

[Dimoak]

No gun thread is complete without some disagreement and pot stirring ... 🙂

A .410 shotgun shell is absofreakinlutely ******ed for self defense, 000 buck out of a Taurus is good for just a few inches of penetration, totally inadequate.

I'm far from a gun expert, but I respectfully disagree; it may seem pathetic to gun-snobs, but a Judge Magnum with 3" .410s should be plenty to subdue most dark-alley bad guy threats faced by average self-defense users, who are fine with a stopping power vs. accuracy-in-the-clutch trade-off. Once the user gets more comfortable, they can start using .45s. If that thing could fire off .454 Casulls, IMHO, it'd get more respect.

 

[Frank Rizzo]

Haven't shot it yet, but i love the .22 version.

Note: this is .380

 

[pgg]

I'm far from a gun expert, but I respectfully disagree; it may seem pathetic to gun-snobs, but a Judge Magnum with 3" .410s should be plenty to subdue most dark-alley bad guy threats faced by average self-defense users, who are fine with a stopping power vs. accuracy-in-the-clutch trade-off. Once the user gets more comfortable, they can start using .45s. If that thing could fire off .454s, IMHO, it'd get more respect.

I figured some would disagree with me on the Judge. I don't claim expertise, but maybe I'm a snob. My wife's always saying, "you spent how much on WHAT?" 🙂

For self defense, a .410 shot shell in a handgun is an even worse idea than putting birdshot or rock salt in a "home defense" shotgun.

Regarding accuracy, shotguns (even toy shotguns like the Judge) still need to be aimed. Three 000 shot fired at handgun ranges aren't going to spread out enough eliminate or even reduce the need for aiming. So as long as you've got to be on target anyway, why not put a .45 cartridge in there?

Regarding stopping power, .410 000 buck out of a Judge is a laughably poor performer in tests vs ballistic gelatin. This isn't like the 9mm vs .45acp or 5.56 vs 7.62 stopping power debate; it simply lacks the required penetration to reach a vital organ given a hit from any angle.

There is no defensible reason to ever shoot a person with a .410 shot shell out of a Judge. As for it being some kind of trainer round until someone is ready for .45, I don't buy that either. The Judge is a novelty, kind of cool that it can use two very different types of ammunition, but .410 shot shells are not people shooters.

 

[BLADEMDA]

This is why a Ruger LCP is on my list ...
- if California ever gets around to issuing me a CCW
- if California ever gets around to adding it to the handgun roster
This state is ridiculous. On the bright side, the roster will probably fall to the courts in the aftermath of McDonald, and CA did finally issue my military AWP so I can now bring my evil scaaaary black guns into the state. I'm the envy of all my non-military gun-nut friends.



My brother has one of those, and just bought an AR57 a couple weeks ago. Nice guns. The 50-round box magazine for the AR57 is cool. Relatively expensive ammo though, essentially one choice for the civilian market. The Brady ******s hate it with a passion (handheld assault pistol armorpiercing copkiller whargarbl) so I suppose owning one just to spite them is reason enough.

Ruger LCP. looks good. I will add it to my list. Anyone care to make a rec on a semi auto 40 pistol? I am looking at the H and K vs. the Kimber.

Thanks.

 

[buffdoc]

I went to Army OBLC over the summer and fired the Beretta M9 (92F) in 9mm. It is an extremely simple, accurate, and reliable handgun that is easy to master. Almost all of the medical students there got either an 'Expert' or 'First Class' rating and many of these were females who had never fired a weapon before (other than the M16 training that we did the week prior).

For home defense I have a Beretta Cx4 Storm in 0.40 cal with a mounted tactical light and holographic red dot sight.

I also have a Beretta Px4 pistol in 0.40 cal and a few others. But I'm wishing that my personal weapons were 9mm insead of 0.40 cal. With 9mm you can carry a lot more ammo in the clip which would come in handy if you really needed it. This is especially true if you compare 9mm to 0.45 cal.

 

[Hernandez]

I'm far from a gun expert, but I respectfully disagree; it may seem pathetic to gun-snobs, but a Judge Magnum with 3" .410s should be plenty to subdue most dark-alley bad guy threats faced by average self-defense users, who are fine with a stopping power vs. accuracy-in-the-clutch trade-off. Once the user gets more comfortable, they can start using .45s. If that thing could fire off .454s, IMHO, it'd get more respect.

eh, while I know that supposidly 5 pellets of buckshot vs 9 isn't that large of a difference, I wouldn't as first you'd have to buy the Judge that accepts 3" shells, and then IF you can find the 000 buckshot for 410, and then you're shooting it out of a much shorter barrel which kills the velocity and you loose much of the kinetic energy. I'd rather have a 12 guage or a handgun or a 12 guage handgun, but not a 410 handgun for self defense. now a 410 handgun with birdshot is great fun on a skeet range.

 

[Hernandez]

I went to Army OBLC over the summer and fired the Beretta M9 (92F) in 9mm. It is an extremely simple, accurate, and reliable handgun that is easy to master. Almost all of the medical students there got either an 'Expert' or 'First Class' rating and many of these were females who had never fired a weapon before (other than the M16 training that we did the week prior).

For home defense I have a Beretta Cx4 Storm in 0.40 cal with a mounted tactical light and holographic red dot sight.

I also have a Beretta Px4 pistol in 0.40 cal and a few others. But I'm wishing that my personal weapons were 9mm insead of 0.40 cal. With 9mm you can carry a lot more ammo in the clip which would come in handy if you really needed it. This is especially true if you compare 9mm to 0.45 cal.

I think J&G sales still has some police trade in Beretta 92s for $350 or less......

 

[BLADEMDA]

I went to Army OBLC over the summer and fired the Beretta M9 (92F) in 9mm. It is an extremely simple, accurate, and reliable handgun that is easy to master. Almost all of the medical students there got either an 'Expert' or 'First Class' rating and many of these were females who had never fired a weapon before (other than the M16 training that we did the week prior).

For home defense I have a Beretta Cx4 Storm in 0.40 cal with a mounted tactical light and holographic red dot sight.

I also have a Beretta Px4 pistol in 0.40 cal and a few others. But I'm wishing that my personal weapons were 9mm insead of 0.40 cal. With 9mm you can carry a lot more ammo in the clip which would come in handy if you really needed it. This is especially true if you compare 9mm to 0.45 cal.

Yes, the Beretta is very accurate pistol. But, a lot of plastic parts. Trigger a little loose. Overall a nice weapon. But, serious gun fanatics don't seem very keen on Beretta weapons. Also, 9 mm bullets aren't as effective as 40 for stopping bad guys (just ask the FBI and others). But, for the range they are much cheaper.

You should be able to get a used Beretta Cx4 for under $400 in the 9mm edition. I prefer owning a variety of different guns. Other than Glock and Beretta have you fired H and K or Kimber? What about Springfield?

 

[buffdoc]

Yes, the Beretta is very accurate pistol. But, a lot of plastic parts. Trigger a little loose. Overall a nice weapon. But, serious gun fanatics don't seem very keen on Beretta weapons. Also, 9 mm bullets aren't as effective as 40 for stopping bad guys (just ask the FBI and others). But, for the range they are much cheaper.

You should be able to get a used Beretta Cx4 for under $400 in the 9mm edition. I prefer owning a variety of different guns. Other than Glock and Beretta have you fired H and K or Kimber? What about Springfield?

My rationale for having two Berettas (Cx4 and Px4) was that the magazines are interchangeable, which could possibly be of benefit in a zombie apocalypse. And then instead of buying more guns, I purchased some nice accessories and upgrades for the Cx4 to make it super cool.

The Px4 was also a nice upgrade from the Smith & Wesson 0.40 Glock rip-off that jammed every 3rd round and sucked in every way. I gave that thing away and am glad I don't have it anymore.

I also have a Colt AR-15 .223/5.56, which I like a lot. I wouldn't mind owning an H&K, but don't have the funds for it these days.

 

[Dimoak]

For self defense, a .410 shot shell in a handgun is an even worse idea than putting birdshot or rock salt in a "home defense" shotgun.

Who's talking about home defense? If we're talking about a gun that lives in your bedroom, definitely the bigger the boomstick, the better. My position is more regarding a portable self-defense weapon in the hands of a "non-enthusiast".

Regarding accuracy, shotguns (even toy shotguns like the Judge) still need to be aimed. Three 000 shot fired at handgun ranges aren't going to spread out enough eliminate or even reduce the need for aiming. So as long as you've got to be on target anyway, why not put a .45 cartridge in there?

Regarding stopping power, .410 000 buck out of a Judge is a laughably poor performer in tests vs ballistic gelatin. This isn't like the 9mm vs .45acp or 5.56 vs 7.62 stopping power debate; it simply lacks the required penetration to reach a vital organ given a hit from any angle.

There is no defensible reason to ever shoot a person with a .410 shot shell out of a Judge. As for it being some kind of trainer round until someone is ready for .45, I don't buy that either. The Judge is a novelty, kind of cool that it can use two very different types of ammunition, but .410 shot shells are not people shooters.

The 3" contains 5 pellets, as opposed to the non-Magnum Judge 3 000s. I think it really does make a difference in the appropriate settings. Weren't the gelatin tests done at range distances (15 yards, 25 yards, etc.)? As I mentioned earlier, it's not a gunfighter's weapon; IMHO, it's best used by a novice where the assailant is not armed with a firearm or doesn't have it ready. If the assailant encroaches to <10 yards, it's a fairly high yield shot that does require some accuracy to connect, but not nearly as much as a traditional handgun, which would be ideal in the hands of a stressed wielder. 3 shots, 15 pellets, and now you have a decent shot in close range. It's a gun more so for disabling an assailant rather than killing them, which I think for many is a desirable option.

 

[Arch Guillotti]

You bought 2 guns with interchangeable magazines just in case of a "zombie apocalypse"?

wow.

My rationale for having two Berettas (Cx4 and Px4) was that the magazines are interchangeable, which could possibly be of benefit in a zombie apocalypse.

 

[Dirtball]

Do not underestimate The Judge. I bought a 3in. after testing one on 1.5 inch hardwood and my old washing machine (simulates a car door- well, Newer car door). Exit wounds were impressive at 25 ft. The 3in 000 shells hold 5 pellets the size of a .380 cal round. Good nightable, vehicle , front door of house weapon. Great advice above, practice and practice and practice some more with experts. Run windsprints , get your HR > 130 then step up to the range and shoot. This was one of the best training aids I learned for combat shooting. Henry is correct, after 30yrs of carry I stick with a smaller frame for carry, the big ones get bulky and heavy fast.

 

[Salt Creep]

Regarding accuracy, shotguns (even toy shotguns like the Judge) still need to be aimed. Three 000 shot fired at handgun ranges aren't going to spread out enough eliminate or even reduce the need for aiming. So as long as you've got to be on target anyway, why not put a .45 cartridge in there?

So few people understand that shot takes time (and thus distance) to spread - I'm very glad to see somebody does. You make some good points about the Judge, and I don't own one; just had seen plenty of the popularity.

I do have a 12ga Mossberg 590 with tritium ghost ring sights in the bedroom, and almost everyone I've ever mentioned it to has said something about not having to aim, which I attempt to disspel.

 

[Salt Creep]

For home defense I have a Beretta Cx4 Storm in 0.40 cal with a mounted tactical light and holographic red dot sight.

Excellent choice. Here's mine:

While I like the 12ga, my wife was uncomfortable with its size and corners - a very legitimate concern. Both are in the bedroom now. Wish I could afford an Eotech or Trijicon sight, but for now, the lasermax and cheaper holograph will do.

I also have a Beretta Px4 pistol in 0.40 cal and a few others. But I'm wishing that my personal weapons were 9mm insead of 0.40 cal. With 9mm you can carry a lot more ammo in the clip which would come in handy if you really needed it. This is especially true if you compare 9mm to 0.45 cal.

You can carry more, but you're likely to need more. The 9mm is too prone to overpenetration, IMO. Too small of a round travelling too fast. Unless you're in a target rich environment, it is exceedingly unlikely you'd ever need more than a couple rounds. FBI crime reports show that on average, <5 rounds are fired in an encounter, and that within less than 10 yards.

 

[buffdoc]

You bought 2 guns with interchangeable magazines just in case of a "zombie apocalypse"?

wow.

Yeah! Isn't it possible for people to walk around without an intact circulatory system?

It's just an excuse to buy cool ****.

 

[pgg]

You bought 2 guns with interchangeable magazines just in case of a "zombie apocalypse"?

wow.

No kidding. He should've bought a bunch of magazines for each gun, so he could loan one to a friend. When the zombies come, armed friends are going to be important. You don't want to be sharing your gun's magazines when Zed and his 10 moaning pals are walking up the driveway.

 

[pgg]

It's a gun more so for disabling an assailant rather than killing them, which I think for many is a desirable option.

This is really the basis of my criticism of the Judge. I don't believe a gun or ammo that is deliberately designed to be a less effective killing device has any place in self defense.

I prefer to leave the less-than-lethal ammunition in the hands of the police or military ... who travel in packs and have lethal stuff to back up their kinder, gentler loads.

If god forbid I ever shoot someone, it'll be because I'm in fear for my life, and I want the highest probability of a disabling hit. 3 (or 5) 000 buck fired from a handgun will probably do the trick, most of the time, probably, I guess, but there are much better options out there.

If the Judge was reliably non-lethal, it might have a place alongside pepper spray or harsh language. But it's not, and so I don't see any appropriate place for it in the self-defense arena. JMO.

 

[buffdoc]

Excellent choice. Here's mine:

While I like the 12ga, my wife was uncomfortable with its size and corners - a very legitimate concern. Both are in the bedroom now. Wish I could afford an Eotech or Trijicon sight, but for now, the lasermax and cheaper holograph will do.

Nice! It looks very similar to the one I have.

I have a C-More systems holograph which is a little bit cheaper than Eotech or Aimpoint, but works just as well. It is 100% parallax free which means the dot stays on the target regardless of the angle at which you look through the lense.

Before I invested in the C-More, I had a super cheap NC-Star, but couldn't stand how the dot would move when I would move my head a little bit.

I also moved the optic more distal on the rail. It looks cooler when it is proximal, but I was told by those who are in the know that it is easier and faster to acquire the dot/target when it is farther out.

You can carry more, but you're likely to need more. The 9mm is too prone to overpenetration, IMO. Too small of a round travelling too fast. Unless you're in a target rich environment, it is exceedingly unlikely you'd ever need more than a couple rounds. FBI crime reports show that on average, <5 rounds are fired in an encounter, and that within less than 10 yards.

Do the hollow points penetrate? That's an interesting stat. Now I won't feel so bad about sticking with my 0.40 cals. I've become attached to them.

 

[BitingPlates]

Gun choice, important that you are comfortable shooting it and wearing it. I don't see the need for any special sights for a self defense weapon for a civilian. Majority of all self defense engagements are less than five yards, you will be full of adrenaline and will not be able to line up sights with good accuracy anyway. Point shooting is what you need to do, it works well once you practice. Like others have said, when a gun is new it is hard to pull back the slide, and magazines are very difficult to load as well.

Everyone sweats the massive caliber handguns, I never understood that. I mean they are amazing to shoot and own, but for self defense you need something that is practical and you are able to shoot well. I have been carrying a Glock 27 for four years and it is my favorite. It is a subcompact with nine plus one capacity of .40 caliber. There is a huge difference between 9mm and .40 cal. The Glock 26 which is the 9mm version subcompact glock is pretty much same size as the .40 cal version. The recoil on the 27 is nasty, I honestly do not like to shoot it unless I am using an extended magazine, but I bought it strictly for concealed carry. My friend carries a colt WWII reproduction 45, it is massive and a pain in the ass to carry all day, my subcompact can slip in cargo shorts pockets, or in my waist band I can wear a T shirt and it doesn't print.

What ever gun you decide to purchase, make sure you get a good holster and belt. If you do end up getting a Glock, check out http://www.comp-tac.com they have a slide holster called CTAC that is amazing!



This is a nice video demonstrating how dependable Glock handguns are
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_JuF23qazI

It is just my preference that I like glock handguns, although I love HK's. To me glocks are just well made and very simple weapons that work.

As far as knockdown power, I believe that you need the round to travel over 2000 feet per second to actually have knock down power.

This is an interesting read http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

 

[Leonard McCoy]

MS-II here, new member to SDN and randomly came across this thread (actually interested in neonatalogy at present 😎). I agree with the above posters about the merits of the revolver. They are reliable and fun to shoot, and the more fun to shoot a gun is the more likely you are to practice more often at the range. The 'ole nightstand gun for me is a S&W model 60-15 : .357 loaded w/ .38s (Federal hydrashok hollow points). You can never go wrong with a Smith.

A quick google search yields a decent review of this particular gun:

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/review/Model_60-15.htm

Shoot what you're comfortable with and what you can find/afford ammo for. Congratulations on exercising your constitutional rights!

 

[pgg]

As far as knockdown power, I believe that you need the round to travel over 2000 feet per second to actually have knock down power.

This is an interesting read http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

According to that reference, it's not "knockdown power" but instead reliable fragmentation that requires a velocity over 2000 fps.

It's a good article.

They also discuss penetration. Taurus Judge owners infatuated with .410 shot shells should read it. 😀

 

[fakin' the funk]

As the first poster on this thread who knows nothing about guns, handguns, permits, bullets, etc, just wondering... What all do you use a handgun, or laser-sighted handgun, or shotgun, or assault rifle for. I mean, ideally you never have to use it on a person right? Is it just for the shootin range?

 

[rsgillmd]

As the first poster on this thread who knows nothing about guns, handguns, permits, bullets, etc, just wondering... What all do you use a handgun, or laser-sighted handgun, or shotgun, or assault rifle for. I mean, ideally you never have to use it on a person right? Is it just for the shootin range?

I took the class initially out of general interest, but it grew from there. My goal is to get a gun that I can carry concealed in appropriate situations, and also use for home defense. I intend to become as comfortable with its use in different situations as possible, so when I do need to defend myself I won't hesitate. Since I am not a hunter, it will be on the range/in classes.

Why do you practice needle crics? Because one day you may have to do one, and you want to be ready. Do you think through the steps before you put an IV? No, because you've done it a thousand times -- it's muscle memory. That's where I want to get with a handgun for self defense.

If my interest grows from this point, we'll see. Reading all of these posts has been eye opening in showing me how much I still have to learn.

 

[Eta Carinae]

Thanks to the hubby, I am beginning to truly respect the splendor of fire power. Last week, we attended a gun show at the Texas Rodeo which, in spite of the "Anti-Socialism" protest tee-shirts, was actually quite amazing! Everything from vintage WWI ammunition (yes including grenades) to horse whips, hunting knives, display rifles, hunting rifles, double, single barrels, handguns, pistols, magnifiers, even good old gun powder. We were in search of a good hunting rifle...and it was so much fun.

Point being, I love guns and posters on this thread seem to have a genuine appreciation for it's proper use and potential for lethality. And that's the way it should be. Unfortunately, incredibly powerful weapons like these fall into the hands of people with not the very best of intentions.

My fear is that some miscreant stumbles across this very informative thread and this information guides their acquisition of a fire arm that leads to the loss of innocent lives. Increasingly, criminals and psychopaths turn to the internet for free and detailed "how-to" information for whatever their misdeeds are- the right firepower or a bomb-making cookbook.

God forbid any of that information should come from a physicians' forum. God forbid we actually place weapons in the hands of criminals.

I've always thought The Private Forum would be a more secure avenue for discussions like this. At least we know we've done as much as we can to ensure this sort of information (coming from we, physicians) was being shared with responsible citizens.

I don't hate guns and I support the individual right to bear arms. However, I also believe there is an appropriate and more socially responsible manner to exercise these rights and freedoms.

 

[Savage Henry]

I am looking at the H and K vs. the Kimber.

Doc, Kimber makes some of the finest machines today. I mean that literally - a machine is a device made to perform a task, and Kimbers are outstanding examples of quality and value in manufacturing - they just happen to be handguns. HK makes some very fine weapons as well. I think your choice is going to be more between single action/double action triggers, magazine capacity, and how either weapon fits your hand. My vote is for the Kimber, though - I have a Kimber 1911 and it is one of the finest products I've ever owned.

Just based on personal experience, I would steer clear of glow in the dark night sights, as you pictured. When I was in the military, I got to play around with simunition quite a bit. Once, we were working some MOUT stuff at night, and my Company Commander decided to play. He was a pretty gung ho guy, and brought his own Beretta fitted with Trijicons or some such. He was using an M4 with his Beretta in some fancy drop/thigh holster. Even the little glow given off by his tritium sights gave him away in total darkness (before muzzle flashes screw up your night vision) and they stood out like crazy on NVGs/NODs. The Captain stopped playing after the third or fourth time he was shot in the leg, as simunition tends to sting a tad when it hits. We told him afterward how inviting his lit up thigh was as a target, and he used his issue M9 all the time after that - lesson learned.

Of course, your mileage may vary.

 

[Savage Henry]

I've always thought The Private Forum would be a more secure avenue for discussions like this. At least we know we've done as much as we can to ensure this sort of information (coming from we, physicians) was being shared with responsible citizens.

I don't hate guns and I support the individual right to bear arms. However, I also believe there is an appropriate and more socially responsible manner to exercise these rights and freedoms.

Eta, the equally improbable flip side to your argument is this:

1. Drug seeker/narcotic addict gets tired of lying in the ED to get "that shot that starts with a D/the only pill that helps...oxysomething."
2. Drug seeker decides that anesthesiologists must know where to get the good stuff. Drug seeker looks on internet for some anesthesiologists to rob, runs across this thread.
3. Drug seeker finds this thread, with a bunch of highly trained docs shooting the breeze (see what I did there? BOOSH!) with a broken down old combat Marine who wants to be a doc (me) because we all like guns and own a bunch.
4. Drug seeker decides to rob an oncologist instead (or something).

Of course, I'm willing to be corrected. I'm not a physician, so I don't understand how docs talking about guns with dudes like me is socially irresponsible.

 

[BitingPlates]

Doc, Kimber makes some of the finest machines today. I mean that literally - a machine is a device made to perform a task, and Kimbers are outstanding examples of quality and value in manufacturing - they just happen to be handguns. HK makes some very fine weapons as well. I think your choice is going to be more between single action/double action triggers, magazine capacity, and how either weapon fits your hand. My vote is for the Kimber, though - I have a Kimber 1911 and it is one of the finest products I've ever owned.

Just based on personal experience, I would steer clear of glow in the dark night sights, as you pictured. When I was in the military, I got to play around with simunition quite a bit. Once, we were working some MOUT stuff at night, and my Company Commander decided to play. He was a pretty gung ho guy, and brought his own Beretta fitted with Trijicons or some such. He was using an M4 with his Beretta in some fancy drop/thigh holster. Even the little glow given off by his tritium sights gave him away in total darkness (before muzzle flashes screw up your night vision) and they stood out like crazy on NVGs/NODs. The Captain stopped playing after the third or fourth time he was shot in the leg, as simunition tends to sting a tad when it hits. We told him afterward how inviting his lit up thigh was as a target, and he used his issue M9 all the time after that - lesson learned.

Of course, your mileage may vary.

Getting hit with sims rounds really did suck, but way better than using the BFA. When my unit switched from MP5s to M4s the pain just got worst haha. The fun was worth it when you got to light up a SNCO or officer though.
That Kimber is an amazing piece, I have shot one and I really like it. As for carrying that thing, if you like carrying bricks in your waist its the gun for you.

Didn't read your other post, but I figured you were a Marine. Semper Fi brother!

 

[Dimoak]

This is really the basis of my criticism of the Judge. I don't believe a gun or ammo that is deliberately designed to be a less effective killing device has any place in self defense.

I prefer to leave the less-than-lethal ammunition in the hands of the police or military ... who travel in packs and have lethal stuff to back up their kinder, gentler loads.

If god forbid I ever shoot someone, it'll be because I'm in fear for my life, and I want the highest probability of a disabling hit. 3 (or 5) 000 buck fired from a handgun will probably do the trick, most of the time, probably, I guess, but there are much better options out there.

If the Judge was reliably non-lethal, it might have a place alongside pepper spray or harsh language. But it's not, and so I don't see any appropriate place for it in the self-defense arena. JMO.

That's probably most people's criticism of it as well, particularly among gun enthusiasts. But there's still a divide between the needs and preferences of a well-practiced shot vs. that of an individual just carrying to protect themselves (and potentially others) in a clutch situation. It's one thing to be in fear for your life but still being able to hit the abdomen from 25 yards out with your 1911, but it's different when you're nowhere near that good of a shot. At that point, you brandish, and if they keep encroaching, you spray-n'-go. I'm not saying there aren't any better options out there for a novice shot (it's certainly debatable, especially if your goal is to get 12" penetration), but the Taurus Judge Magnum still has a reasonable appeal for certain self-defense scenarios. As a disclaimer, I don't own a Judge, but IMHO, it's still a nice gun for some of its intended applications.

 

[pgg]

As the first poster on this thread who knows nothing about guns, handguns, permits, bullets, etc, just wondering... What all do you use a handgun, or laser-sighted handgun, or shotgun, or assault rifle for. I mean, ideally you never have to use it on a person right? Is it just for the shootin range?

rsgillmd had a great answer to this above, but I'll add a couple things.

Target shooting, whether or not actual formal competitions are involved, is an enjoyable sport to many. There are motor and mental aspects to it that are difficult to master, particularly at longer ranges.

Owning a finely made, high performance, precision gun has an enjoyment all its own ... just as many enjoy owning impractical expensive cars, paintings, or kitchen utensils. The AR platform in particular is very modular and there are 1000s of ways to assemble and customize them for particular uses or personal taste.

History & tradition.

And of course, self defense. People don't learn and practice Karate hoping they'll find an excuse to kick someone's ass. They know that when they're going to their nightly Bible study group and those "two dudes" jump them, it's too late to sign up for the first class.

And totally apart from petty street crime, or home invasions, events like Katrina and the LA riots have demonstrated how thin the veneer of civilization is, and how our civilized and mostly safe society can become very dangerous very quickly, even if only for a short time. Look at recent natural disasters - Haiti's probably a poor example because that was a chaotic hole before the earthquake, but Chile was relatively safe and stable. Reports abound of people turning predatory in a hurry in Chile. It can happen here. When the looters reach your block, it's too late to acquire and get comfortable with a handgun or rifle.


Also, the term "assault rifle" properly refers to a select-fire rifle (ie, fully automatic or capable of burst fire). Unfortunately the term has been hijacked by dishonest people with a gun control agenda, and most people mistakenly apply it to ALL black rifles that have a pistol grip.

While it is legal for individuals to own select-fire weapons in most states, there are significant obstacles to acquiring one. The huge, overwhelming majority of "assault rifles" owned by civilians are just ordinary semiautomatic rifles with less oomph than a deer rifle and a comfortable, ergonomic grip.

My fear is that some miscreant stumbles across this very informative thread and this information guides their acquisition of a fire arm that leads to the loss of innocent lives.

Gangbangers and miscreants don't read esoteric academic forums for their gun info. There are 100s of gun sites and forums out there with far more information, in far more detail, and with a far less responsible tone.

We should HOPE that those bad citizens stumble across this thread. They might depart with a greater respect for guns.

 

[Savage Henry]

Didn't read your other post, but I figured you were a Marine. Semper Fi brother!

Motivate!

And totally apart from petty street crime, or home invasions, events like Katrina and the LA riots have demonstrated how thin the veneer of civilization is, and how our civilized and mostly safe society can become very dangerous very quickly, even if only for a short time. Look at recent natural disasters - Haiti's probably a poor example because that was a chaotic hole before the earthquake, but Chile was relatively safe and stable. Reports abound of people turning predatory in a hurry in Chile. It can happen here. When the looters reach your block, it's too late to acquire and get comfortable with a handgun or rifle.

This is 1000% true. Every single person you meet - from the petty criminal to the UC Berkeley professor with a BS in Social Responsibility and a PhD is Brotherly Love - is three missed meals away from being an animal. People will do what they have to to survive. It's amazing (but it shouldn't be, I guess) what happens when parents watch their kids begin starving, or when they don't have access to clean water or medical supplies. I have seen this transformation in action, and it is something that needs to be respected and planned for.

 

[Salt Creep]

What all do you use a handgun, or laser-sighted handgun, or shotgun, or assault rifle for. I mean, ideally you never have to use it on a person right? Is it just for the shootin range?

Ideally, I will never have to use my life or disability insurance I pay for every month. Ideally, I will never have to use my fire extinguisher in my home or in my car (though I already have used one in the car before). Ideally, I would never need to use the seatbelt in my car. Ideally, the fire hydrant on my street will only be for kids to play in during the summer. Ideally, I will never have to do a crichothyroidotomy. Ideally, I will never have to use dantrolene for MH.

Ideally, the defensive ammunition in my firearms will never strike flesh. Unfortunately, we're unable to schedule emergencies, or to prevent them altogether. Me must therefore be prepared to respond to them appropriately. My family deserves no less, and I'd be shirking my responsibilities to do less.

 

[zenman]

A friend of mine, when asked why he shot a VC 16 times, replied, "Well, I ran out of shells."

Words of wisdom:

Clint Smith, Director of Thunder Ranch, is part drill instructor and part standup comic (Thunder Ranch is a firearms training facility in Arizona). Here are a few of his observation on tactics, firearms, self defense and life as we know it in the civilized world.

"The most important rule in a gunfight is: Always win and cheat if necessary."

"Don't forget, incoming fire has the right of way."

"Make your attacker advance through a wall of bullets. You may get killed with your own gun, but he'll have to beat you to death with it, cause it's going to be empty."

"If you're not shootin', you should be loadin. If you're not loadin', you should be movin, if you're not movin, someone's gonna cut your head off and put it on a stick."

"When you reload in low light encounters, don't put your flashlight in your back pocket. If you light yourself up, you'll look like an angel or the tooth fairy... and you're gonna be one of 'em pretty soon."

"Do something. It may be wrong, but do something."

"Shoot what's available, as long as it's available, until something else becomes available."

"If you carry a gun, people will call you paranoid. That's ridiculous. If you have a gun, what in the hell do you have to be paranoid for."

"Don't shoot fast, unless you also shoot good."

"You can say 'stop' or 'alto' or use any other word you think will work, but I've found that a large bore muzzle pointed at someone's head is pretty much the universal language."

"You have the rest of your life to solve your problems. How long you live depends on how well you do it."

"You cannot save the planet but you may be able to save yourself and your family."

"Thunder Ranch will be here as long as you'll have us or until someone makes us go away, and either way, it will be exciting."

More Excellent Gun Wisdom.......

The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield, and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental.

1. Don't pick a fight with an old man. If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.

2. If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.

3. I carry a gun cause a cop is too heavy.

4. When seconds count, the cops are just minutes away.

5. A reporter did a human-interest piece on the Texas Rangers. The reporter recognized the Colt Model 1911 the Ranger was carrying and asked him "Why do you carry a 45?" The Ranger responded, "Because they don't make a 46."

6. An armed man will kill an unarmed man with monotonous regularity.

7. The old sheriff was attending an awards dinner when a lady commented on his wearing his sidearm. "Sheriff, I see you have your pistol. Are you expecting trouble?" "No ma'am. If I were expecting trouble, I would have brought my rifle."

8. Beware of the man who only has one gun, because he probably knows how to use it very well.

"The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him." G. K. Chesterton