Hardest Undergrad Schools?

[Jew Alcindor]

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In the past 50 years at Harvey Mudd, 4 people have graduated with a 4.0 GPA - 2 were Rhodes Scholars. Additionally, about 1/8 of the class will "ITR" (invited to retire / ineligible to return) due to low GPA.

Yeah, but 4.0s are not common anywhere. I remember reading some article about a girl at Harvard who got one, it seemed like a pretty big deal and also like she was taking a lot of gut classes (her brother got a 4.0 too though).

 

[streetlight]

a girl at Harvard who got one, it seemed like a pretty big deal and also like she was taking a lot of gut classes (her brother got a 4.0 too though).

....and her friends and the rest of her classmates probably got a 4.0 too...

 

[SketchLazy]

any of the UC's would be good candidates for the hardest undergrad school for premeds, with the subjective order being:

UCLA/CAL-->UCSD-->UCD/UCI-->The rest
(hardest)---------------------->(easiest)

Not only are they state schools with tons and tons of premed, but its freakin cali😡 and gettin into med school frm cali is harder than most other states...

I agree that it's hard to apply if your from CA. It's seems like people are just going by published rankings anyway, but ranking the UCs and then putting them above all the rest is going way beyond subjective. I think how challenging you find a school is all based on your own capacity rather than the school itself. Across the board, all the professors probably try to challenge their students as much as their counterparts at other schools would. I think that how well students do is ultimately up to them and its useless to blame the school for how hard it is.

 

[ssquared]

Yeah, but 4.0s are not common anywhere. I remember reading some article about a girl at Harvard who got one, it seemed like a pretty big deal and also like she was taking a lot of gut classes (her brother got a 4.0 too though).

Don't like 90% of Harvard grads graduate at least cum laude?

4.0s are hard to get, but maybe Harvard is not the best example to use. I agree that in engineering school a 4.0 would be a much harder feat....

 

[lord_jeebus]

Several years ago, Boalt Hall (the law school at UC-Berkeley) released the table of factors they used to adjust GPAs by undergraduate institution.

Swarthmore was rated most difficult, followed by Williams. (correction: Chicago)

For some reason I can't find the table online anymore, unfortunately.

EDIT: Found it. It's ten years old, however. http://groups.google.com/group/soc.college.admissions/msg/7898d172a5d63050?hl=en&

 

[hb2998]

Oakland community College!!

👍

I second the pointless thread nomination, and party with it when it wins the award .

How do you rate what is hard and what is not. I've had community college professors that have absolutely destroyed me, while I've had UCLA professors that were a breeze (...and others that were just a pain).

Say there SDNers... are we going next to wonder whats the hardest medschool, hardest residency, hardest attending?..

 

[sanchopanza]

Which food makes you have the hardest poop?

FRUIT
Bananas

CULTURED PRODUCT
Yoghurt

BABY FOOD
American Baby Rice Cereal

 

[Auraraptor]

I actually heard Hopkins depends on majors. I heard the liberal arts majors are easy, but any of their science and engineering majors are impossible.

I know there is/was a Hopkins Bioengineer on these boards, maybe he can confirm this^

Not entirely accurate.

The average humanities GPA is around 3.5, 3.4 for natural science, and 3.3 engineering.

Now realize if you are not so inclined, some humanities (or engineering, or science) classes can be impossible. I have seen engineers crash and burn thinking they were going to get an easy A. 😛 Looking back, most of my humanities (lower and upper level) had no curve what so ever, as well as some of my science classes (orgo comes to mind). On the other hand, bell curves in some of my science classes made it nearly impossible to get an A.

Next, realize there are people with multiple majors as well that cross these lines. (ie how would a person who is a double major in a humanity and science count?)

Finally realize you have all types applying to med school.

 

[coffeebythelake]

University of Toronto has really bad grade deflation.

 

[MDapp06]

no one doubts uchicago then? i heard its impossible to get a 4.0 there...

Agreed -- it is impossible to get a 4.0 at UChicago. Generally the atmosphere is quite intense, regardless of your major. I would say that economics is the most competitive major, and some students will really do anything to get an A (which is disappointing, in my opinion).

 

[MEG@COOL]

i vote for my cock

 

[MossPoh]

I am somewhat surprised my oral skills comment flew underneath the radar....oh well.

 

[sanchopanza]

It was much appreciated, dog. Honestamente.

 

[mountainhare]

....and her friends and the rest of her classmates probably got a 4.0 too...

Although bashing Harvard undergrad always provides endless amusement, a quick google search would suggest that the guy with the perfect 4.0 GPA in 2001 was the first student in "nearly 20 years" to do. The next person to get a perfect 4.0 was his sister in 2003. And then, in 2006, there was exactly one person (a girl I know) who got a perfect 4.0. That's, like, three people in ~20 years.

http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=348373

I don't particularly care about the mine-is-bigger-than-yours discussion that's going on on this thread, but I just wanted to set the facts straight since the girl who got that rare 4.0 in 2006 is a good friend of mine.

 

[cbr]

x

 

[mterp45]

I actually lived with someone in the hotel school that worked as hard if not harder than engineers and still didn't get all A's. So its all relative and being the agriculture was not a walk in the park.

What does that say about him?

 

[Auron]

Lol...from the link you posted

Loeb Professor of Germanic Languages and Literatures Maria M. Tatar predicted such a feat was within Schwartz's reach during her freshman year when she took Tatar's core class "Fairy Tales, Children's Literature and the Culture of Childhood."

that class sounds like a joke. After reading that article I'm inspired and motivated at what a person can achieve....her accomplishments were impressive.

 

[mterp45]

I vote for Harvard as the hardest Ivy. 🙂

yeah harvard and it's grade inflation lol what are smoking?

 

[PricklyPear]

that class sounds like a joke. After reading that article I'm inspired and motivated at what a person can achieve....her accomplishments were impressive.

True, some of Harvard's courses have names that make them sound like BS ("Chinese Imaginary Space" anyone?). But don't be misled, many of those BS-sounding classes are anything but a joke.

The thing about Harvard's grade inflation is that it makes it possible to get B's and B+'s with minimal effort, but everyone still has to work hard to get the A's and A-'s. Just my two cents 🙂

~prickles

 

[mterp45]

The hardest schools almost alway sseem to be the smaller ones. Many of the smartest people I know came from very small schools.

you just started your argument with two really false premises leaving no room for validity

 

[streetlight]

yeah harvard and it's grade inflation lol what are smoking?

i guess according to the grade adjustment list that was posted (and partially reproduced below), Harvard would be the hardest ivy? I don't buy it...

TABLE FOR GRADE ADJUSTMENT BY RANK OF SCHOOL - BERKELEY SYSTEM

GRADE POINT AVERAGE RANGE:
SCHOOLS 3.86 - 4.0+ 3.70 - 3.85 3.60 - 3.69 3.50 - 3.59 3.49 Below
1. 84.0+ Add .10 Add .125 Add .15 Add .175 Add .20
2. 79.0-83.9 Add .04 Add .06 Add .08 Add .10 Add .12
3. 72.0-78.9 Add 0.0 Add 0.0 Add 0.0 Add 0.0 Add 0.0
4. 67.0-71.9 Minus .04 Minus .06 Minus .08 Minus .10 Minus .12
5. 66.9-Below Minus .10 Minus .125 Minus .15 Minus .175 Minus .20

GRADE ADJUSTMENT RANK FOR SELECTED INSTITUTIONS

Swarthmore 91.1
Chicago 88.1
Harvard 87.1
Williams 86.8
Duke 86.8
Reed 86.3
MIT 86.0
Amherst 85.8
Bryn Mawr 85
William & Mary 85
US Naval Academy 85
US AF Academy 85
Carleton 85
Colgate 85
Wesleyan 84.8
Dartmouth 84.8
Cornell 84.8
Vassar 84.7
Brandeis 84.3
Princeton 84.1
Johns Hopkins 83.3
Yale 83.1

 

[Auron]

True, some of Harvard's courses have names that make them sound like BS ("Chinese Imaginary Space" anyone?). But don't be misled, many of those BS-sounding classes are anything but a joke.

🙂

So I guess underwater basket weaving at harvard is a weed out course

 

[PricklyPear]

So I guess underwater basket weaving at harvard is a weed out course

Duh! It's common knowledge that that's the class they use to weed out all but the most hardcore premeds.

(omg...I love the dancing banana)

 

[Auron]

.

 

[UMP]

Yeah, I'll have to agree with Swarthmore... my girlfriend went there and the amounts of work they have to put in to their classes is insane... she came to UMich for a semester and was quite amused at how easy the workload was.

At least we have a football team and don't have to watch soccer for our homecoming game (and that's why U of Chicago doesn't qualify as a real school either)

 

[maestro1625]

Yeah, I'll have to agree with Swarthmore... my girlfriend went there and the amounts of work they have to put in to their classes is insane... she came to UMich for a semester and was quite amused at how easy the workload was.

At least we have a football team and don't have to watch soccer for our homecoming game (and that's why U of Chicago doesn't qualify as a real school either)

they never should have allowed MSU to replace them... disappointments, all of them.

 

[UMP]

they never should have allowed MSU to replace them... disappointments, all of them.

I think U of Chicago dropped it's program because it was detracting from academics... if you know anything about Big Ten football, I think you know they might have been on to something

 

[brritscold]

i guess according to the grade adjustment list that was posted (and partially reproduced below), Harvard would be the hardest ivy? I don't buy it...

Why don't you? I think too many people on these boards buy into the belief that Harvard is rampant with grade inflation, and is in fact "easier" as a result. Also, it *used* to be true that a large percentage of every class would graduate with honors, but that is not the case any more. Since 2005, honors have been capped at ~50%.

PricklyPear is right, in that it's relatively easy for Harvard students to get something in the B-range, but that an A- or A requires some real effort. But think about it, those are Harvard students - it was damn hard getting in, and most of the people there are smart and accustomed to working the system.

Also, I would bet that at least some portion of Berkeley's adjustment scale is based on the average LSAT score for applicants from each college, since tests like the LSAT and MCAT are meant, after all, to help distinguish between the academic preparation of applicants from different schools. And I'd bet that Harvard pre-law (and pre-med 😉 ) students are probably high scorers as a group, which accounts for the highest-in-Ivy status.

"Hard" is relative...

 

[UMP]

Why don't you? I think too many people on these boards buy into the belief that Harvard is rampant with grade inflation, and is in fact "easier" as a result. Also, it *used* to be true that a large percentage of every class would graduate with honors, but that is not the case any more. Since 2005, honors have been capped at ~50%.

PricklyPear is right, in that it's relatively easy for Harvard students to get something in the B-range, but that an A- or A requires some real effort. But think about it, those are Harvard students - it was damn hard getting in, and most of the people there are smart and accustomed to working the system.

Also, I would bet that at least some portion of Berkeley's adjustment scale is based on the average LSAT score for applicants from each college, since tests like the LSAT and MCAT are meant, after all, to help distinguish between the academic preparation of applicants from different schools. And I'd bet that Harvard pre-law (and pre-med 😉 ) students are probably high scorers as a group, which accounts for the highest-in-Ivy status.

"Hard" is relative...

the list is more than 10 years old... and the LSAT does not gauge any type of academic preparation but rather attempts to test verbal reasoning and reading skill... (which is not really in any college curriculum)

 

[maestro1625]

I think U of Chicago dropped it's program because it was detracting from academics... if you know anything about Big Ten football, I think you know they might have been on to something

hey now, everyone from my HS who went on to play for Michigan was a scholar, a scholar I tell you!

...except for that one guy who lost his scholarship when he forgot to graduate HS first.



edit: btw, the Maroons still have a football team.

 

[akinf]

i'm a canadian student and barely know about most of the american schools except the big-name ones. however, the hardest school in the states from everything i've heard is caltech...even more so than mit. however, IIT (Indian Institute of Technology) like someone mentioned beats both of them. the competition is just too intense...pick up "The World is Flat" by Thomas Friedman and you'll soon realize that this argument doesn't matter...you need to be the best in what ever you do if you want to last regardless of which school you went to. So, this my school is harder than yours is pointless...it's all about the individual...or will eventually be.

 

[maestro1625]

i'm a canadian student and barely know about most of the american schools except the big-name ones. however, the hardest school in the states from everything i've heard is caltech...even more so than mit. however, IIT (Indian Institute of Technology) like someone mentioned beats both of them. the competition is just too intense...pick up "The World is Flat" by Thomas Friedman and you'll soon realize that this argument doesn't matter...you need to be the best in what ever you do if you want to last regardless of which school you went to. So, this my school is harder than yours is pointless...it's all about the individual...or will eventually be.

somehow I don't find Friedman relevant to our flamewar...

 

[brritscold]

the list is more than 10 years old... and the LSAT does not gauge any type of academic preparation but rather attempts to test verbal reasoning and reading skill... (which is not really in any college curriculum)

even if the list is more than 10 years old, I don't think things would have changed that much in terms of how the schools compare to each other. Isn't that one of the main criticisms of the US News rankings, after all? (that they move around so much each year)

Also, the LSAT might not test any specific type of academic preparation per se, but in "attempting" to test for verbal reasoning and reading skill, it does reflect differences in academic ability between applicant groups. Differences that might be applicable to reconsiderations of the GPAs from a given school. And in any case, I think you would be hard-pressed to find someone who feels that verbal reasoning and critical reading skills are not a form of academic preparation. 😎

 

[maestro1625]

even if the list is more than 10 years old, I don't think things would have changed that much in terms of how the schools compare to each other. Isn't that one of the main criticisms of the US News rankings, after all? (that they move around so much each year)

I dont know where you get that from... they are rather steady for the most part...

 

[UMP]

even if the list is more than 10 years old, I don't think things would have changed that much in terms of how the schools compare to each other. Isn't that one of the main criticisms of the US News rankings, after all? (that they move around so much each year)

Also, the LSAT might not test any specific type of academic preparation per se, but in "attempting" to test for verbal reasoning and reading skill, it does reflect differences in academic ability between applicant groups. Differences that might be applicable to reconsiderations of the GPAs from a given school. And in any case, I think you would be hard-pressed to find someone who feels that verbal reasoning and critical reading skills are not a form of academic preparation. 😎

WRONG!

 

[maestro1625]

I think you would be hard-pressed to find someone who feels that verbal reasoning and critical reading skills are not a form of academic preparation. 😎

(raises hand)

 

[brritscold]

I dont know where you get that from... they are rather steady for the most part...

for the most part, yes. However, US News has been taken to task for rather frequently modifying the methodology for how it calculates various components of its rankings. See, e.g.,

http://www.stanford.edu/dept/pres-provost/president/speeches/961206gcfallow.html

You can also see this in the case of CalTech for the undergrad rankings, which was #1 for one aberrant year, and then quickly dropped down after that.

 

[maestro1625]

for the most part, yes. However, US News has been taken to task for rather frequently modifying the methodology for how it calculates various components of its rankings. See, e.g.,

http://www.stanford.edu/dept/pres-provost/president/speeches/961206gcfallow.html

You can also see this in the case of CalTech for the undergrad rankings, which was #1 for one aberrant year, and then quickly dropped down after that.

Well in the CalTech situation, they had no other choice as the bitching from East Coast academic apologists was deafening for the rest of the country.

 

[brritscold]

WRONG!

(raises hand)

Care to elaborate?

Btw, I'm taking academic preparation to mean a student's ability to perform well academically. Critical reading and other "verbal" skills are not explicitly taught as individual subjects in most college curricula, true. However, imo, there is a correlation between those skills and the quality of the education that you have received -- with the latter ostensibly being one of the metrics that this thread is trying to resolve. Can you intensively read writers such as Shakespeare and Austen, Kant and Marx, etc. for four years without gaining some verbal skills?

This discussion has been interesting, but I should be going to sleep...

 

[maestro1625]

Care to elaborate?

Btw, I'm taking academic preparation to mean a student's ability to perform well academically. Critical reading and other "verbal" skills are not explicitly taught as individual subjects in most college curricula, true. However, imo, there is a correlation between those skills and the quality of the education that you have received -- with the latter ostensibly being one of the metrics that this thread is trying to resolve. Can you intensively read writers such as Shakespeare and Austen, Kant and Marx, etc. for four years without gaining some verbal skills?

This discussion has been interesting, but I should be going to sleep...

that's a hard thing to argue really...I've always seen verbal/critical reasoning as something that people either possess or not. You can have all the exposure you want, but there are always people who "get it" and those who don't.

though to be fair, I've always considered Austen to be somewhere in the same level as whoever wrote the script for "You've got mail" But then again, if it weren't for the influences of Austen, would we have shallow chick flicks today? hmmm....

but yeah... sleep. going there too. I have the ann arbor art fair to navigate on the way to work tomorrow morning.

 

[michiganblue08]

i vote for my cock

seriously, like are you in the fourth grade?? i don't understand why people have to be so immature when other people are having GROWNUP conversations. you are the least thing from funny. get a life 👎

 

[streetlight]

seriously, like are you in the fourth grade?? i don't understand why so many people have to be so immature when other people are having GROWNUP conversations. you are the least thing from funny. get a life 👎

seconded, at least the todd is funny.

 

[rms435]

unless you are planning on applying or transferring to a new undergrad, none of this really matters does it??

 

[batman1983]

Lack of resources?? That's not true!! Berkeley has lots of resources. Think about the professors ( sometimes up to 3 for general classes like Bio), and head TA, all the other TAs, and, most importantly, student learning center . For pretty much all the pre-med classes (gchem, math, bio, ochem), Student learning center gives mock exams before mid-terms and finals that you can practice on as well as has study groups that you can go to for practice problems, etc. I completely disagree that Berkeley has lack of resources or that faculty is unwilling to help you. They are some of the most helpful and friendly people around on the campus.

Berkeley, however, has a really competitive environment. Even an "easy" class can be hard because everyone wants an A and is willing to do everything to get that A.

I dont know about you, but my experiences with professors have been the opposite. Either they have been rude or just dont care. This is the kind of environment that I have dealt with at UC Berkeley(hypercompetitive and cheating students, as well as threatening professors) : http://youtube.com/watch?v=5GUZRM67nZY

The only things I do admire about Berkeley are the GSIs and TAs. In most of my classes, they have been better than the professors, and have been more than willing to take time out of their schedules to assist me, unlike the professors that are not even willing to assist me during their "office hours". But, last I check, I thought its the professors that are suppose to teach the classes. Also, I should mention, that there are some professors that are extroidinary instructors, such as Prof Ellman in Chem 3B and Prof Hayes for IB 137, but they are easily outnumbered by the poor professors.

As for the SLC, it is a very great organization. Unfortunately, I believe they just dont have the resources neccessary to accomadate a school such as Berkeley. Go to a review session for a midterm and final, you will be lucky to find a seat. I believe they need more funding.

 

[badasshairday]

I dont know about you, but my experiences with professors have been the opposite. Either they have been rude or just dont care. This is the kind of environment that I have dealt with at UC Berkeley(hypercompetitive and cheating students, as well as threatening professors) : http://youtube.com/watch?v=5GUZRM67nZY

The only things I do admire about Berkeley are the GSIs and TAs. In most of my classes, they have been better than the professors, and have been more than willing to take time out of their schedules to assist me, unlike the professors that are not even willing to assist me during their "office hours". But, last I check, I thought its the professors that are suppose to teach the classes. Also, I should mention, that there are some professors that are extroidinary instructors, such as Prof Ellman in Chem 3B and Prof Hayes for IB 137, but they are easily outnumbered by the poor professors.

As for the SLC, it is a very great organization. Unfortunately, I believe they just dont have the resources neccessary to accomadate a school such as Berkeley. Go to a review session for a midterm and final, you will be lucky to find a seat. I believe they need more funding.

I disagree with you strongly. I also went to Berkeley and I found that all of my professors were very helpful in office hours. It's just a matter of going in. Professor Liphardt in physics was one of the nicest and most helpful professors out there. Also Vollhardt for ochem, he's not known for being the best at teaching because people are intimidated by him, but the guy is very helpful in office hours. Yes, during those reviews it is crowded because everyone wants to do well. It is hypercompetitives. But the TA's, GSIs, SLC (offers private tutoring as well as study groups), and professor office hours are enough. What would you do with more funding? Keep the library open longer...

 

[badasshairday]

even if the list is more than 10 years old, I don't think things would have changed that much in terms of how the schools compare to each other. Isn't that one of the main criticisms of the US News rankings, after all? (that they move around so much each year)

Also, the LSAT might not test any specific type of academic preparation per se, but in "attempting" to test for verbal reasoning and reading skill, it does reflect differences in academic ability between applicant groups. Differences that might be applicable to reconsiderations of the GPAs from a given school. And in any case, I think you would be hard-pressed to find someone who feels that verbal reasoning and critical reading skills are not a form of academic preparation. 😎

Not true things, things can change quickly. For instance, the avg MCAT for matriculants was a 28 10 years ago, now its a 30/31.

 

[BrownianMotion]

are ivy-league schools supposed to be significantly harder than other schools? or is it just that they are harder to get into, but once you're in, you're set?

 

[seadizzle]

grade inflation is something that was debated at my high school (magnet)

should grades be the grade you would receive at a public/state insitution? or your rank within your own class

at harvard, imagine all your classmates have an average 34 mcat score. with a straight curve making into the top 15-20% for some type of A is going to be a challenge. also, as much as admissions offices know your school, you're going to be at a huge disadvantage with a 3.0, even if you were always around the top 30-35%. and if you are in the top 30-35% at the big H, you would be easily in the A range at a state school, and thus a much more competitive applicant.

it was the same situation in my high school (tj, well known for those uva posters :] ). they decided to let the inflation run a bit rampant, because it really would hurt college admissions from the school if the gpa was not very high.

 

[Turtle78]

i got my ass kicked all OVER the place at oberlin.....you have no idea of the tears i shed there as a student. then i went to michigan for graduate school and had the easiest 2 years of my life.

I second that...I transferred from Cornell to Oberlin during undergrad and got my academic arse kicked for the first time at Oberlin.

 

[littlealex]

In terms of difficulty, I thought the military academics take the trophy easily. Afterall, they have to wakeup at 6am to be PTed, THEN they goto class and take 21 credits a semester.