Harvard or UF (state school)?

[Big Time Hoosier]

Go to UF. Take that $200,000 you saved and tell the program director at the residency of your choice you'll "donate" it to their department if they select you. Guaranteed Match right there.

Big Hoss

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[Incis0r]

Just think of what you miss out on living in Florida...

You can't listen to the Red Sox on the radio. You'll never go sledding with your kid, build a snowman with them, or watch with joy as they jump in a pile of leaves. Your house will have no history or character; absent will be built ins and original wide panel hardwood floors and exposed beam ceilings. You and your wife will never get to cuddle up with a good book in the winter by the warmth of your wood stove. You'll never get to walk out of your house in the morning to hear it perfectly still, with the moonlight shining off the fresh snow and illuminating your breath as it rises against the sky.

You'll never get to take day trips to Boston or NYC, and have to get a plane to go skiing or to Fenway Park.

Or...you could go to Florida, save thousands of $$ from no state income tax, and hop on a cruise to the Bahamas/Carribean every month:

 

[Carbohydrates]

People who have gone to dental school + someone who landed a residency told me these things.
Let's talk undergrad (even though it's obviously way easier than d school). What is the difference between getting an 89 and a flat 90 in a class? The amount of effort that could change your grade 1-2 points could be almost nil. An example would be my friend who needed to get 50/55 questions right on a final to ace a class but got 49. If that were to happen in dental school, he would immediately drop a few ranks. If my undergrad was pass/fail on the other hand, they would still have learned a similar amount in the case of missing 1 extra question on a final but would not have the problem of dropping ranks corrrect? Do we need to be in dental school to understand this concept?

I'm in dental school and still don't understand this concept of yours

 

[Medin2017]

I'm in dental school and still don't understand this concept of yours

Deviating between p f easier than deviating 89 90. Is this explanation poor

 

[LFA20]

Also as a side note. Students that attend Harvard, penn, Columbia usually specialize because those schools are not geared to produce general dentist. I don't want to say that they can't succeed as a GP but their clinical skills definitely wont be as good as those attending state schools situated in poor areas with high supply of patients. A lot of the residents in my school in ortho and OS came from these ivy league schools. I talked to a few of them and they said they must specialize because of lack of clinical experience. Another colleague of mind who is in the navy program attending Columbia said he only sees patients 2 -3 days a week. Heck I also heard that Harvard start preclinical/sim lab work same time as seeing real patients!

 

[Medin2017]

Florida is where I'm going when I'm done ! Deff agree with this , but if you wanna specialize , no question go to Harvard , it is tough to decide between these two schools though as they're both amazing , UF was one of my top choice schools when I applied , and I was out of state lol


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Spoken like a d1 at an ivy.
Imo ppl at state schools don't like the notion of ivies helping out a bit.

 

[Scumbag_Steve]

.

 

[Craig_Sherwood234]

Harvard.

Why? Because it's Harvard.

Good choice, OP.

 

[Alpha Centauri]

Also as a side note. Students that attend Harvard, penn, Columbia usually specialize because those schools are not geared to produce general dentist. I don't want to say that they can't succeed as a GP but their clinical skills definitely wont be as good as those attending state schools situated in poor areas with high supply of patients. A lot of the residents in my school in ortho and OS came from these ivy league schools. I talked to a few of them and they said they must specialize because of lack of clinical experience. Another colleague of mind who is in the navy program attending Columbia said he only sees patients 2 -3 days a week. Heck I also heard that Harvard start preclinical/sim lab work same time as seeing real patients!

I really don't believe that any one school, Ivy or not, is so "bad" at preparing GPs that they don't have the option of pursuing general at all. IMO the playing fields will be leveled out after a residency, which all dentists should be doing before practicing. If not, a year or two of work after that will resolve any clinical incompetencies

 

[hockey553]

Thanks for the input guys! I am leaning towards Harvard. Yes, the difference of 120k is substantial, and as you guys stated it will be over 200k+ after interest and inflation of tuition. However, I am hoping for financial aid and may qualify for some need-based money. Around 1/3 of students in the class also receive scholarships, so I am definitely going to look into that too. Aside from the cost, I cannot see myself living in Gainesville for four years. I currently live two hours south of UF and have been there many times. There is absolutely nothing around UF. Living in Boston is much more appealing to me. I want something different and all my friends who live in Boston love it.

Harvard is the only school that I would choose over UF. I turned down UCSF and UPENN.

 

[Likkriue]

The banks are estatic about your choice.

 

[Cali20002]

10 Hottest $200,000 Cars for 2016

 

[shwayne]

Just think of what you miss out on living in Florida...

You can't listen to the Red Sox on the radio. You'll never go sledding with your kid, build a snowman with them, or watch with joy as they jump in a pile of leaves. Your house will have no history or character; absent will be built ins and original wide panel hardwood floors and exposed beam ceilings. You and your wife will never get to cuddle up with a good book in the winter by the warmth of your wood stove. You'll never get to walk out of your house in the morning to hear it perfectly still, with the moonlight shining off the fresh snow and illuminating your breath as it rises against the sky.

You'll never get to take day trips to Boston or NYC, and have to get a plane to go skiing or to Fenway Park.

Instead, you are resigned to the choice of living in rural Florida, while affordable, has horrendously performing schools, or live in a good school district knowing that your life will be one endless flat road with strip malls, golf courses, old people, way too many dentists, and tourists. All the while, you will have perpetual swamp ass for at least ten months out of the year, with the heat and humidity causing you to keep spare shirts, socks, and underwear in your car at all times just so you can be dry for a few minutes and not feel like dying.

The city of Miami, not Miami beach but the city itself, is full of cool local culture/restaurants. I also enjoyed the one time I stopped in Gulf Breeze. Judging by the rest of Florida, I think it's safe to say that I would gladly pay over $50,000 in state income tax per year to never have to call it home. Never been to Disney and it looks/sounds like an absolutely horrendous time. Tampa sucks. Most of the state sucks. It's too crowded in any part that can adequately educate your kids.

I will concede that the amount of fishing to be had there must be pretty damn awesome. If I did live there, I would be miserable and question whether I enjoyed my very existence, but I would eat fresh fish every single day for dinner.

"Wicked pissah argument, bro."-said every Southie resident ever

 

[blablabla1]

Thanks for the input guys! I am leaning towards Harvard. Yes, the difference of 120k is substantial, and as you guys stated it will be over 200k+ after interest and inflation of tuition. However, I am hoping for financial aid and may qualify for some need-based money. Around 1/3 of students in the class also receive scholarships, so I am definitely going to look into that too. Aside from the cost, I cannot see myself living in Gainesville for four years. I currently live two hours south of UF and have been there many times. There is absolutely nothing around UF. Living in Boston is much more appealing to me. I want something different and all my friends who live in Boston love it.

Harvard is the only school that I would choose over UF. I turned down UCSF and UPENN.

People are gonna try deterring you but I would probably do the same if I was in your shoes (especially since I would legitimately hate myself if I lived in Florida). You seem keenly aware of the debt involved and as long as you spend wisely, and responsibly manage your finances, you will be okay.

Take advantage of what you get from going to Harvard. Apart from the great specialty rates, you will be meeting a lot of brilliant minds and it's hard to put a price tag on those type of connections (assuming you network well). Good luck!

 

[Craig_Sherwood234]

The banks are estatic about your choice.

I would not be surprised if the OP came out ahead over you in the long run. In fact, I pretty much expect it.

To the OP: I went to UF as an undergrad. Congrats, man.

 

[Alpha Centauri]

I would not be surprised if the OP came out ahead over you in the long run. In fact, I pretty much expect it.

To the OP: I went to UF as an undergrad. Congrats, man.

I think everything aside, if you can get into a school like Harvard, it is safe to say one possess the repertoire necessary to succeed in this field, rather than just get by loan payment to loan payment

 

[Likkriue]

I would not be surprised if the OP came out ahead over you in the long run. In fact, I pretty much expect it.

To the OP: I went to UF as an undergrad. Congrats, man.

Based off a couple of posts on a forum. Wow you must be a sage.

When OP gets a degree, he will be a dentist.
When I get my degree, I will be a dentist.

 

[Incis0r]

I would not be surprised if the OP came out ahead over you in the long run. In fact, I pretty much expect it.

Ahead in what exactly?

Financially? You don't know either of their mindsets towards business/investing

Socially? You haven't seen how each interacts with friends or their networks

Ability to perform quality dentistry? Come on now...even the national licensing board examiners get it wrong at times, so how can you predict?

 

[ssm38]

Congrats on choosing Harvard!

 

[Dr5paceman]

Congratulations on choosing Harvard !

edit your post, not cool

 

[LFA20]

I don't know about the other schools you mentioned, but Columbia is situated in a place with no short supply of a patient base, google the location and read up before making blatant statements lol. Furthermore, when my class (2020) starts our major clinical years we're gonna have a brand new clinic that supposedly will put our clinical education as well as technology exposure / innovative potential on par with any solely clinical geared school if not beyond. Not to sure where these sentiments keep coming from that we can't be general dentists out of the aforementioned schools if we want to, maybe ten years ago the clinical experience was lacking , but it certainly isn't now. I have to get up early to go work on a bunch of restorations due Friday for our pre clinical class, and am not worried that I won't be prepared for any path I choose to take out of my school. Sorry for sidetracking your thread op , just had to put it out there for anyone reading this now or in the future , so there are no misconceptions , and not trying to fight or argue , just speaking from actual experience and seeing things first hand via upperclassmen. Good luck op , truly you have an unbelievable choice to make , best of luck , cheers !


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when you come up to clinic your 3rd year come back to this thread and post how many units of crown, removable, operative, and perio you need to complete to graduate. Lets compare that with the requirements of other schools.

 

[ncide]

OP, best of luck and congratulations on entering the field.

 

[Medin2017]

Good job. You probably got rid of a lot of the headaches that come with some schools that aren't as specialty oriented. Hopefully your earnings as a specialist will make the debt a smaller deal than most people are making it.

 

[wengerout]

when you come up to clinic your 3rd year come back to this thread and post how many units of crown, removable, operative, and perio you need to complete to graduate. Lets compare that with the requirements of other schools.

Isn't this sort of irrelevant though when certain state schools that are well regarded clinically (University of Louisville comes to mind) are moving away from pure # requirements in favor of more patient friendly competency test?


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[wengerout]

Florida is where I'm going when I'm done ! Deff agree with this , but if you wanna specialize , no question go to Harvard , it is tough to decide between these two schools though as they're both amazing , UF was one of my top choice schools when I applied , and I was out of state lol


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I want to move to Florida too . There or Texas perhaps


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[Stanelz]

flip a coin at this point

 

[Likkriue]

Chances are you won't have the cutting edge technology in your office in the future. All that new tech adds to overhead.

 

[Cali20002]

Chances are you won't have the cutting edge technology in your office in the future. All that new tech adds to overhead.

Hard to justify the cost when ur $120K machine is obselete in 3 years

 

[wengerout]

Chances are you won't have the cutting edge technology in your office in the future. All that new tech adds to overhead.

Hard to justify the cost when ur $120K machine is obselete in 3 years

Even if you don't have it at the get go, more exposure to the future of dentistry can only be a positive, no? It's not the end all be all but I don't see how having access to new technology could be a negative. As for the 120k machine going obsolete in 3 years, i'd like you to tell my college GP that his CAD/CAM mill has gone out of date over the sound of his Cessna taking off.

 

[Cali20002]

Even if you don't have it at the get go, more exposure to the future of dentistry can only be a positive, no? It's not the end all be all but I don't see how having access to new technology could be a negative. As for the 120k machine going obsolete in 3 years, i'd like you to tell my college GP that his CAD/CAM mill has gone out of date over the sound of his Cessna taking off.

It's gone out of date, where is he?

 

[Likkriue]

Even if you don't have it at the get go, more exposure to the future of dentistry can only be a positive, no? It's not the end all be all but I don't see how having access to new technology could be a negative. As for the 120k machine going obsolete in 3 years, i'd like you to tell my college GP that his CAD/CAM mill has gone out of date over the sound of his Cessna taking off.

Didn't say it was a negative at all. Just saying that it isn't exactly as advantageous as he made it sound like. It's good to get exposed to it but it isn't nessesary.

 

[wengerout]

It's gone out of date, where is he?

Southern United States, his profits say otherwise.

 

[Incis0r]

that his CAD/CAM mill has gone out of date over the sound of his Cessna taking off.

Southern United States, his profits say otherwise.

Maybe I'm missing some logic here, but how do his profits/his Cessna prove that CAD/CAM is super relevant?

I mean, he could be in a FFS practice doing really high-end work only, and if that's the cause for his success, then that would be there with or without CAD/CAM.

 

[wengerout]

Didn't say it was a negative at all. Just saying that it isn't exactly as advantageous as he made it sound like. It's good to get exposed to it but it isn't necessary.

I understand, at the end of the day the most important thing is getting your degree. Working with brand new facilities is a very nice bonus (One I took into high consideration when picking a school) but it is up to the individual on what premium they are willing to pay for it.

 

[Scumbag_Steve]

.

 

[wengerout]

Maybe I'm missing some logic here, but how do his profits/his Cessna prove that CAD/CAM is relevant?

I mean, he could be in a FFS practice doing really high-end work only, and if that's the cause for his success, then that would be there with or without CAD/CAM.

The argument presented was that any dentist using new technology is wasting their time since it will go obsolete in three years, which is ludicrous. He has marketed his CAD/CAM mill very well and a large % of his procedures are single day crown/on-lays/in-lays. It seems pretty clear to me you should evaluate various technology individually and determine which tools will best make your practice successful.

 

[Scumbag_Steve]

.

 

[Incis0r]

I always like to think of it as roughly 11 brand new Honda Fits

I think of it as 400 high-quality bikes.

#getonmylevel
#bikecommute

 

[Cali20002]

The argument presented was that any dentist using new technology is wasting their time since it will go obsolete in three years, which is ludicrous. He has marketed his CAD/CAM mill very well and a large % of his procedures are single day crown/on-lays/in-lays. It seems pretty clear to me you should evaluate various technology individually and determine which tools will best make your practice successful.

My point was that it's hard to justify spending $120,000 on a long term equipment purchase when the technology is moving so rapidly. Some schools only have CEREC's that use dust for scanning and now we have digital scanners that can take, what, 14 images per second? Hard to know when to jump in on the tech!

 

[wengerout]

Agree with the sentiments, but I would argue against the characterization of Florida as an incredible state. Gainesville cheaper than Boston? You bet. Florida an incredible state? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Ironically I think I have the exact opposite sentiment (Given I am UGA Grad so maybe I am biased). Gainesville was alright but outside of Orlando I would prefer most of the other cities in FL.

 

[Scumbag_Steve]

.

 

[wengerout]

My point was that it's hard to justify spending $120,000 on a long term equipment purchase when the technology is moving so rapidly. Some schools only have CEREC's that use dust for scanning and now we have digital scanners that can take, what, 14 images per second? Hard to know when to jump in on the tech!

Who said it should be easy? I think CAD/CAM is a more straightforward example of a technology that a large % will be investing in.

 

[wengerout]

Miami to visit, never to live. Too hot, too crowded. Jacksonville too, although less hot. Was not a fan at all of Tampa or St. Pete. I've actually never been to Orlando or Tallahassee. Never really stopped many pleases on east coast between Miami and Jacksonville other than West Palm, Ft Lauderdale, and Hollywood, wasn't a fan of any of them. The west coast is pretty much Spring Training Country to me; couldn't tell you anything about any of it except Gulf Breeze/Pensacola in the panhandle which, again, are nice to visit, never to live.

I agree with you 100% on Miami. Jacksonville though I could see myself living in, close enough to the fun but without the crowds. Tampa I am also a fan but to each their own.

 

[Likkriue]

I think of it as 400 high-quality bikes.

#getonmylevel
#bikecommute

I look at it as 200 nice vacations for a single guy. 200/365 days I'm chilling.

 

[Likkriue]

Yes, assuming I plan to open my own practice day one from scratch I wouldn't be able to afford these luxuries. However, that is not my intention, how many people do you know who actually pursue that as a game plan with the cost of school regardless of public or private? Thus, when Im doing my gpr, working as an associate for an older dentist, doing a speciality program, or working in corporate , or wherever I end up, Ill be that much more capable of having my proficiency and skill set grow faster, because Im already accustomed to a myriad of different treatment options and technologies out there. Im more than grateful to have a background in the very innovations that will likely be shaping how we treat patients into the foreseeable future. Thus to come full circle, based on the fact that I will likely be in an environment my first few years, where I work for and or am trained by an institution that can afford the aforementioned luxuries, I consider myself quite fortuitous to be able to see these things in school. And as for the "120 k" difference you're citing, and stating I implied is justified by technology, this isn't a pissing contest and to be clear/concice, I did not claim that the tuition difference was solely due to the exposure to new technologies. There are a plethora of different other reasons why I chose to attend the school I did over a public school I was accepted to from out of state, Ive listed them on other threads here before and have no desire to do so again. Its just that to bring up an assumption and imply I was claiming that the tech differential alone was worth 120 k difference in tuition, when I did no such thing, is an issue I just cant help but clarify because such a gross misassumption must be rectified. Overall, I'm not trying to argue or have a fight at all, we all choose to go to the schools we do for many different reasons, and as I'm so fond of saying repetitively on this site, on so many different forums, too each their own, we all place different value on different things in a program and in life as a whole.

The part about the 120k was Maga1994, not me. I was merely stating the new tech is not all that necessary. Good to get familiar with sure, but not essential for a dental office.

 

[Cali20002]

The part about the 120k was Maga1994, not me. I was merely stating the new tech is not all that necessary. Good to get familiar with sure, but not essential for a dental office.

What did I do?

 

[schmoob]

Deviating between p f easier than deviating 89 90. Is this explanation poor

P/F isn't always REALLY P/F. Some schools still record grades for ranking purposes, even if the transcripts don't show.
I think the possibility of NOT specializing is something that has not been considered enough. Harvard does have a high specialization rate, but it's not 100%. Do you feel your additional costs in education would be worth it then? You're essentially gambling a 6-digit figure to increase (not guarantee) your chances of specializing.
I think I'm going to side with @AVB2104 on this one. It's true that certain schools are essentially feeder schools into PG programs, while other schools are more focused on clinical skills. So it comes down to stronger didactics vs stronger clinical in this case. @nateriver I agree with you that the feeder schools do prepare every graduate to practice general dentistry if they choose to, but their clinical skills are likely not as strong as a peer who graduates from a clinical program. No doubt the Ivy grad will be more academically prepared than the clinical grad, but those skills may not prove as beneficial as a GP. Similarly, all those hours the clinical grad spent perfecting their restorative skills won't really help them if they match into OMFS. My point is there are too many variables.

I say go to UF. Work hard, save your $, and check the right boxes during your time there. If you can pull grades like that at UF, I'm confident you'll be able to succeed in whichever path you decide to pursue. Do not underestimate exactly how much money that is.

 

[Incis0r]

Here's the other thing. It's been repeatedly observed that many students enter D-school wanting to specialize, but only few end up doing it.

I mean just look at the Harvard stats posted earlier. 12 out of 36 kids DIDN'T specialize at Harvard, whether due to personal reasons or something else. Still, that's a 1/3 chance.

Meanwhile, it's a 100% chance that you'd have $200K+ more in debt.

 

[wengerout]

I still think that UF is the best choice for you in my opinion, but one thing I hadn't considered is how lab courses would affect class rank at UF. If you're a slow learner and don't have gifted hands right away, getting poor grades on project no matter how hard you try must be very frustrating and harm the class rank. That would definitely be me if I went to a school that did this lol.

I am glad you brought this up actually, this was one of my biggest concerns when deciding schools. My state school is notorious for being very harsh graders when it comes to pre-clinical work which made me think twice on if I wanted to go there and risk my rank going in the tank. Of course this won't be a concern for everyone.

 

[Alpha Centauri]

I am glad you brought this up actually, this was one of my biggest concerns when deciding schools. My state school..... and risk my rank going in the tank. Of course this won't be a concern for everyone.

Ok I see you Dr. Seuss