Harvard or UF (state school)?

[LFA20]

Just to add, speic

It's not the number of procedures, it's whether you can do them well or not . Competency as a dentist does not equate to how many cases you got signed offf. Maybe half the number of cases you did were simple and thus yes on paper you did "x" number of roots canals etc. but they were simple and or maybe they were complex . I think a valid gauge of how equipped you are to handle a certain issue is based on the competency of completing a treatment to a certain level. To be certain the more practice the better , couldn't agree more , but quantity doesn't always equal quality. Furthermore, as I mentioned before , with the new clinic we will be using when my class starts third year, I have no doubt that our skills will be far beyond just competent , and we will also have access to the most cutting edge of tech right as we leave dental school. Thus we will theoretically have experience with the most up to date equipment no matter where we go afterwards, which is an invaluable exposure, whether it be speciality , gpr, military, or private practice....


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Yes I agree with that but you'll see that it's very difficult to find ANY patient with root canals that insurance will cover for let alone finding a complex case. Also it's very unlikely they will let you do a maxillary molar as an undergrad. You will probably end up doing anterior teeth AND insurance must also cover it(unless patient wants to pay out of pocket which is quite rare). My point is the more patients you encounter, the higher chances you will get those cases. This goes the same for removable and fixed.

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[Medin2017]

Here's the other thing. It's been repeatedly observed that many students enter D-school wanting to specialize, but only few end up doing it.

I mean just look at the Harvard stats posted earlier. 12 out of 36 kids DIDN'T specialize at Harvard, whether due to personal reasons or something else. Still, that's a 1/3 chance.

Meanwhile, it's a 100% chance that you'd have $200K+ more in debt.

Well the 7 who applied to oms all got in. Those 12 did not attempt

 

[Incis0r]

Well the 7 who applied to oms all got in. Those 12 did not attempt

Harvard makes it very clear that it is a specialty-focused program. Those 12 students knew it going in, and if they got into Harvard, they got into cheaper programs as well.

However, things change during dental school. For some reason, these 12 students decided against further residency education.

And if they chose Harvard over a state school like UF, they lost out on $200,000+ just to end up in the same place.

Meanwhile, I also know some amazing dentists who went to state schools, killed it, and ended up specializing in Pediatric Dentistry, OMFS, etc. All while saving hundreds of thousands of dollars.

 

[Medin2017]

Harvard makes it very clear that it is a specialty-focused program. Those 12 students knew it going in, and if they got into Harvard, they got into cheaper programs as well.

However, things change during dental school. For some reason, these 12 students decided against further residency education.

And if they chose Harvard over a state school like UF, they lost out on $200,000+ just to end up in the same place.

Meanwhile, I also know some amazing dentists who went to state schools, killed it, and ended up specializing in Pediatric Dentistry, OMFS, etc. All while saving hundreds of thousands of dollars.

We can always speculate, but there are some people who just like going to expensive schools for the sake of it (rich parents, value of prestige, etc.). Upenn is 70k per year in undergrad, and stanford is 45k per year undergrad. Despite this, some students still go to these schools as premeds only to come back to tx to go to medical schools. Why didn't they just choose UT or TAMU or rice which is like 10-15k per year, still gets you a good education, and still gets many people into the tx medical schools and succeed as well? Money does not mean the same thing to everyone- some top students choose MIT for compsci while other choose UT, with people from both schools being able to land jobs at google or other huge places. The end result is always nice and we can always say UT kid saved money or rice kid still ended up in the same residency as stanford kid, but I don't think it's that black and white. What's not to say a personality like the above chose harvard for the sake of it even if they just go into general?

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

I also know some amazing dentists who went to state schools

Don't flatter me.

Big Hoss

 

[wengerout]

Those 12 students knew it going in, and if they got into Harvard, they got into cheaper programs as well.

This is not always true. I have a friend who got into Columbia but did not get into his state school. I have another friend who had a 25AA and another with a 23AA and neither got into our state school.

Meanwhile, I also know some amazing dentists who went to state schools, killed it, and ended up specializing in Pediatric Dentistry, OMFS, etc. All while saving hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Yes some amazing students killed it at their state school and got to specialize and saved money. Notice those are the ones who made it to the top, the 10%.

Just because someone got into an Ivy doesn't mean if they go to a state school they are just gonna stroll to a top 10% rank. Even with hard work, nothing is guaranteed. As Steve brought up earlier in the thread, if you're the type who just takes awhile to adjust to pre-clinical work, your rank can take a beating before you have adjusted. This is a risk a lot of people are willing to accept, but for some it's worth the extra cost to have a clear road to their aspired specialty. Even for those 12 who did not specialize, we don't know if they choose Harvard for other reasons (Buisness, Academia, etc.).

 

[Craig_Sherwood234]

Ahead in what exactly?

Financially? You don't know either of their mindsets towards business/investing

Socially? You haven't seen how each interacts with friends or their networks

Ability to perform quality dentistry? Come on now...even the national licensing board examiners get it wrong at times, so how can you predict?

Financially? With OP's stats, he doesn't need to do a HPSP like you. He's gonna land something; sky is the limit for him.

Socially? Network from Harvard. Doesn't get any better than that.

Ability to perform quality dentistry? Who knows. I don't know the OP's hand skills.

 

[Medin2017]

This is not always true. I have a friend who got into Columbia but did not get into his state school. I have another friend who had a 25AA and another with a 23AA and neither got into our state school.



Yes some amazing students killed it at their state school and got to specialize and saved money. Notice those are the ones who made it to the top, the 10%.

Just because someone got into an Ivy doesn't mean if they go to a state school they are just gonna stroll to a top 10% rank. Even with hard work, nothing is guaranteed. As Steve brought up earlier in the thread, if you're the type who just takes awhile to adjust to pre-clinical work, your rank can take a beating before you have adjusted. This is a risk a lot of people are willing to accept, but for some it's worth the extra cost to have a clear road to their aspired specialty. Even for those 12 who did not specialize, we don't know if they choose Harvard for other reasons (Buisness, Academia, etc.).

YES THIS IS WHAT IVE BEEN SAYING THE ENTIRE TIME. People keep saying "if get into ivy -> can be top 10 at state school and specialize". What a naive assumption. One poster even said if you worry about rank, you "don't understand what it takes to specialize". People are ignoring tools from an ivy that might help the student that perhaps may not have been high enough rank to specialize at a state school but could pull it off at the ivy. They think it's either specialize from anywhere or can't specialize at all when there's a gray area of kids who may specialize from ivy but fail to acheive that dream from a state school.

 

[Medin2017]

Financially? With OP's stats, he doesn't need to do a HPSP like you. He's gonna land something; sky is the limit for him.

Socially? Network from Harvard. Doesn't get any better than that.

Ability to perform quality dentistry? Who knows. I don't know the OP's hand skills.

Do you really think those stats guarantee specializing? Dental students have told me stats from undergrad can make one feel overconfident.

 

[Incis0r]

Financially? With OP's stats, he doesn't need to do a HPSP like you. He's gonna land something; sky is the limit for him.

lol...

(OP, this is not directed at you)

 

[Cali20002]

Financially? With OP's stats, he doesn't need to do a HPSP like you. He's gonna land something; sky is the limit for him.

Socially? Network from Harvard. Doesn't get any better than that.

Ability to perform quality dentistry? Who knows. I don't know the OP's hand skills.

At least he doesn't put his "AADSAS calculated GPA" in his sig lol

 

[Cali20002]

Do you really think those stats guarantee specializing? Dental students have told me stats from undergrad can make one feel overconfident.

If you can have the same mindset that you had in undergrad, I really believe you can.

 

[LFA20]

None of the students in the top 5 in my school came from ivy. The amount of subjectivity in grading (especially waxing and operative practicals is insane). You have to be both smart AND lucky

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

You all are making specializing seem impossible, especially for us lowly creatures who graduated from state schools. It's hard, but not that hard.

Big Hoss

 

[Incis0r]

Financially? With OP's stats, he doesn't need to do a HPSP like you. He's gonna land something; sky is the limit for him.

Unnecessary Roughness, Craig_Sherwood234! 15 yard penalty, Automatic First down.

 

[Alpha Centauri]

Harvard makes it very clear that it is a specialty-focused program. Those 12 students knew it going in, and if they got into Harvard, they got into cheaper programs as well.

I got into ivy-leagues and can assure you I'd trade it all for a seat at UF. That isn't a reasonable assumption to make dude.

 

[Incis0r]

This is not always true. I have a friend who got into Columbia but did not get into his state school. I have another friend who had a 25AA and another with a 23AA and neither got into our state school.



Yes some amazing students killed it at their state school and got to specialize and saved money. Notice those are the ones who made it to the top, the 10%.

Just because someone got into an Ivy doesn't mean if they go to a state school they are just gonna stroll to a top 10% rank. Even with hard work, nothing is guaranteed. As Steve brought up earlier in the thread, if you're the type who just takes awhile to adjust to pre-clinical work, your rank can take a beating before you have adjusted. This is a risk a lot of people are willing to accept, but for some it's worth the extra cost to have a clear road to their aspired specialty. Even for those 12 who did not specialize, we don't know if they choose Harvard for other reasons (Buisness, Academia, etc.).

I got into ivy-leagues and can assure you I'd trade it all for a seat at UF. That isn't a reasonable assumption to make dude

Fair enough; I can see where you guys are coming from.

 

[wengerout]

You all are making specializing seem impossible, especially for us lowly creatures who graduated from state schools. It's hard, but not that hard.

Big Hoss

I think you misunderstand what we are saying. We are saying it's hard because the quality of student at a state school and the quality of student at an Ivy is virtually the same, however at the Ivy the top 40% or so can specialize, but at (most state schools) the top 10% can. It's not impossible by any stretch but the margin for error is much smaller.

We can't all be like you Big Hoss.


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[wengerout]

Unnecessary Roughness, Craig_Sherwood234! 15 yard penalty, Automatic First down.

As a fellow Falcons fan let's leave the football references alone, I'm still healing from the Super Bowl that never happened.


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[Incis0r]

As a fellow Falcons fan let's leave the football references alone, I'm still healing from the Super Bowl that never happened.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

Listen, even though the Falcons lost, they played like Champions. You hear me? Don't let anybody take that away from you.

 

[Medin2017]

You all are making specializing seem impossible, especially for us lowly creatures who graduated from state schools. It's hard, but not that hard.

Big Hoss

As a lowly creature who will be graduating from a state school, from what I've heard, trying to make A's on everything vs C's get degrees is night and day. It can be an extra 4-6 hours a day of studying every day for the next 4 years..no easy task. Not impossible but it's a world of difference.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

at the Ivy the top 40% or so can specialize, but at (most state schools) the top 10% can. It's not impossible by any stretch but the margin for error is much smaller.

We can't all be like you Big Hoss.

Two people in my class near the middle Matched to endo and one in the bottom half Matched to pedo. From what I have seen, you definitely don't need to be top 10% to specialize. Yes, it makes it easier, but it is not a requisite. Personally, I'll be applying in 2018 for post-graduate training as my time in the world's finest Navy winds down. So, admittedly I do not speak any of this from first hand experience.

Realize that your best chance of Matching is at your own school, simply because faculty have a much better chance to get to know you - for better or for worse. If they like working with you, that is priceless as far as specializing is concerned. In residency they will be working very closely with you for the next two to six years. They would rather have someone they like as a person, but who might not have been top 10%, than a tool who happened to be #1 in their class. How do you think the two I mentioned got right into endo with subpar ranks? The Program Director really liked them.

Big Hoss

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

As a lowly creature who will be graduating from a state school, from what I've heard, trying to make A's on everything vs C's get degrees is night and day. It can be an extra 4-6 hours a day of studying every day for the next 4 years..no easy task. Not impossible but it's a world of difference.

So, you are not arguing Ivy League vs. state school, but P/F vs. graded school.

Big Hoss

 

[Medin2017]

So, you are not arguing Ivy League vs. state school, but P/F vs. graded school.

Big Hoss

Yes this is a big part of it. However I will note that penn is not P/F and still had 12/12 OMFS match. I think curriculum being med oriented (not sure if penn is) matters as well

 

[Likkriue]

Financially? With OP's stats, he doesn't need to do a HPSP like you. He's gonna land something; sky is the limit for him.

Socially? Network from Harvard. Doesn't get any better than that.

Ability to perform quality dentistry? Who knows. I don't know the OP's hand skills.

And you know his stats somehow? Just for the record, his DAT was higher than OPs.

 

[Medin2017]

And you know his stats somehow? Just for the record, his DAT was higher than OPs.

fwiw I think quite a few sdners have higher stats than Op's which was why I didn't believe stats -> high rank in a state school

 

[LFA20]

As a lowly creature who will be graduating from a state school, from what I've heard, trying to make A's on everything vs C's get degrees is night and day. It can be an extra 4-6 hours a day of studying every day for the next 4 years..no easy task. Not impossible but it's a world of difference.

Agree. One of my first semester classes is worth 12 credits. Each exam is 30 question and so 1 more question right or wrong is a difference between a B+ or an A. Now does that make you much smarter than the other student that you got one more question right?...

 

[Cali20002]

.

 

[Medin2017]

Agree. One of my first semester classes is worth 12 credits. Each exam is 30 question and so 1 more question right or wrong is a difference between a B+ or an A. Now does that make you much smarter than the other student that you got one more question right?...

Owch... +/- system is even worse. And no it does not. I would hate to have my rank determined by 1 or 2 questions. And as an extreme example, let's say you made all A's at your school and someone else made all B+s (difference between a question or 2 on every exam). That would be a huge problem rankwise but at a p/f school, they would be almost on par knowledge wise and would probably both have equal chances of specializing.

 

[Alpha Centauri]

Owch... +/- system is even worse. And no it does not. I would hate to have my rank determined by 1 or 2 questions. And as an extreme example, let's say you made all A's at your school and someone else made all B+s (difference between a question or 2 on every exam). That would be a huge problem rankwise but at a p/f school, they would be almost on par knowledge wise and would probably both have equal chances of specializing.

But broooo!!1!1 the dean has a numerical sheet of your exam scores it's not really P/F sos alert!!1!

 

[Medin2017]

But broooo!!1!1 the dean has a numerical sheet of your exam scores it's not really P/F sos alert!!1!

All I see are state schoolers very biasly justifying school decisions. Like congrats you're saving money but you don't need to snuff out other views b/c it goes against your own. You can be reasonable and acknowledge pros and cons of each institution without saying "oh yea we're all gonna be dentists so don't spend more money there are 0 benefits/my friend specialized and saved 200k so don't think of harvard XDD"

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

I'm curious. How many of you have personally experienced paying back student loans? If you have known this joy, I believe your opinion on this whole subject is markedly different than those who are still just in the process of racking up the debt. I suppose there's an advantage to having some "life experience" prior to dental school. With age comes wisdom, I guess. If that's true, I'm pretty freaking old.

Big Hoss

 

[Incis0r]

All I see are state schoolers very biasly justifying school decisions. Like congrats you're saving money but you don't need to snuff out other views b/c it goes against your own. You can be reasonable and acknowledge pros and cons of each institution without saying "oh yea we're all gonna be dentists so don't spend more money there are 0 benefits/my friend specialized and saved 200k so don't think of harvard XDD"

There is definitely some value in attending a school like Columbia. The global health externships are AMAZING and Columbia is really impressive with its ongoing renovations and new construction. The tech is wonderful too, and coupled with the way the curriculum is set up, I think CDM is a fantastic institution and would never deny that being a CDM student offers amazing opportunities.

However, I also recall a Columbia student mentioning that they felt they were treated like second class students compared to med students in a different SDN thread, and that the med school policies often influenced the dental school, so being a Columbia student might have its drawbacks. I also shadowed a specialist who hated his time at Columbia, so each student's mileage may vary. Furthermore, a Columbia education is not cheap at all.

Whether you want to pay a premium for that kind of education truly depends on your own value system.

I'm thrilled to become a general dentist. That will make me happy, so I'd take a cheaper school without question.

 

[Medin2017]

There is definitely some value in attending a school like Columbia. The global health externships are AMAZING and Columbia is really impressive with its ongoing renovations and new construction. The tech is wonderful too, and coupled with the way the curriculum is set up, I think CDM is a fantastic institution and would never deny that being a CDM student offers amazing opportunities.

However, I also recall a Columbia student mentioning that they felt they were treated like second class students compared to med students in a different SDN thread, and that the med school policies often influenced the dental school, so being a Columbia student might have its drawbacks. I also shadowed a specialist who hated his time at Columbia, so each student's mileage may vary. Furthermore, a Columbia education is not cheap at all.

Whether you want to pay a premium for that kind of education truly depends on your own value system.

agreed

 

[super frank]

I'm curious. How many of you have personally experienced paying back student loans? If you have known this joy, I believe your opinion on this whole subject is markedly different than those who are still just in the process of racking up the debt. I suppose there's an advantage to having some "life experience" prior to dental school. With age comes wisdom, I guess. If that's true, I'm pretty freaking old.

Big Hoss

I have "life experience". I have a stable job that brings in a paycheck that is much lower than what I'll bring in in my future and college debt. It sucks, but it's not as catastrophic as most make it out to be. And what I've realized is that once you have combined income with a spouse, it becomes that much easier. I'm actually glad I have this experience bc if not then I would just be listening to a bunch of people on the internet saying how horrible it is and how hopeless I should be.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

I have "life experience". I have a stable job that brings in a paycheck that is much lower than what I'll bring in in my future and college debt. It sucks, but it's not as catastrophic as most make it out to be. And what I've realized is that once you have combined income with a spouse, it becomes that much easier. I'm actually glad I have this experience bc if not then I would just be listening to a bunch of people on the internet saying how horrible it is and how hopeless I should be.

So then you realize an extra $200,000 is a crap ton of money. You're right it won't be the end of the world, but I sure wouldn't want to be carrying that additional debt around my neck. Essentially the OP will have to work AT LEAST an extra year of their life just to have a fancy university's name on their diploma. I have a diploma from a top ten university. Do you know where it is? Sitting in my closet...I think. Seriously, I'm not sure where it is. Looking back, would I have paid what I paid? Absolutely not. I've learned I'd rather have freedom and independence than satisfy my pride.

Big Hoss

 

[Incis0r]

So then you realize an extra $200,000 is a crap ton of money. You're right it won't be the end of the world, but I sure wouldn't want to be carrying that additional debt around my neck. Essentially the OP will have to work AT LEAST an extra year of their life just to have a fancy university's name on their diploma. I have a diploma from a top ten university. Do you know where it is? Sitting in my closet...I think. Seriously, I'm not sure where it is. Looking back, would I have paid what I paid? Absolutely not. I've learned I'd rather have freedom and independence than satisfy my pride.

Big Hoss

The image below proves that I have learned my lesson and graduated from Big Hoss University...look familiar?

 

[Faefly]

Get out of your shell! Explore the world, better your chances, don't play it safe.

Harvard!
You will regret it if you pass out such chance. Most people who are telling you no, have not been accepted by Harvard.

But according to the doctor that I shadowed, who is not a Harvard graduate, but from another private school in Boston, he said Harvard makes the worst General Dentists, go there if you plan to specialize. This is his words not mine!

 

[gatorfan99]

So much "pre-dent stupidity" in this thread... lol

Please see "Dental school will surely wreck your finances" thread

Coming from someone that went to an expensive private school (and had HPSP, thankfully): just like what car you drive, no one (and no patient) gives a crap about what dental school you went to. Dental school is a "bare bones" "barely competent" education, basically you know just enough to "sorta" do dentistry, and it's a truly personal experience in that you will have super starts in your class and super duds > its all about how much time that student puts into learning in the sim lab, in the clinic and in library..

 

[Alpha Centauri]

So much "pre-dent stupidity" in this thread... lol

Please see "Dental school will surely wreck your finances" thread

Coming from someone that went to an expensive private school (and had HPSP, thankfully): just like what car you drive, no one (and no patient) gives a crap about what dental school you went to. Dental school is a "bare bones" "barely competent" education, basically you know just enough to "sorta" do dentistry, and it's a truly personal experience in that you will have super starts in your class and super duds > its all about how much time that student puts into learning in the sim lab, in the clinic and in library..

Been there, done that. Not phased by the negativity. Thanks for looking out for us though. I would definitely be concerned if I planned on associateship all my career

 

[Faefly]

So much "pre-dent stupidity" in this thread... lol

Please see "Dental school will surely wreck your finances" thread

Coming from someone that went to an expensive private school (and had HPSP, thankfully): just like what car you drive, no one (and no patient) gives a crap about what dental school you went to. Dental school is a "bare bones" "barely competent" education, basically you know just enough to "sorta" do dentistry, and it's a truly personal experience in that you will have super starts in your class and super duds > its all about how much time that student puts into learning in the sim lab, in the clinic and in library..

Some of us want to be stupid with quality!
Others want to be enslaved to the war machine.
See, there is all sort of stupidity.

Since you all speak about money and cost. To begin with, isn't stupid to waste more than ten years or our life to end up dentists with mediocre reward, what is it 100k each year? Is that the reward for all the years of devotions.

Other smart people make it big from the stock market or doing small business with some brilliant ideas; we, on the other hand, will be working hard till the day we die or retire whichever comes first. If we got lucky and retired, that will be with a chronic back pain.

Life is stupid, at least he is going to Harvard, that is something worth bragging. Maybe he'll decide to become a president one day, that will help him in the long run.

What your HSPC will help you with in the long run beside getting deployed to Iran in the next oncoming war?

 

[Cali20002]

Some of us want to be stupid with quality!
Others want to be enslaved to the war machine.
See, there is all sort of stupidity.

Since you all speak about money and cost. To begin with, isn't stupid to waste more than ten years or our life to end up dentists with mediocre reward, what is it 100k each year? Is that the reward for all the years of devotions.

Other smart people make it big from the stock market or doing small business with some brilliant ideas; we, on the other hand, will be working hard till the day we die or retire whichever comes first. If we got lucky and retired, that will be with a chronic back pain.

Life is stupid, at least he is going to Harvard, that is something worth bragging. Maybe he'll decide to become a president one day, that will help him in the long run.

What your HSPC will help you with in the long run beside getting deployed to Iran in the next oncoming war?

 

[DrSdreen]

I would go to Harvard if I've given the chance.

 

[Medin2017]

The "Life is stupid, at least he is going to Harvard, that is something worth bragging. Maybe he'll decide to become a president one day, that will help him in the long run." really tops off a great post

 

[Incis0r]

.

 

[DentistScientist]

What if you are interested in doing your residency at MGH, BWH, or Beth Israel?

If this was medicine, you would need to be top3 or do md phd for 9 years at UF to get into MGH residency. If you are just top 3, you can do primary care residency at MGH. If you are top3 and do md phd, you can do the specialty of your choice at MGH.

However if you go to Harvard med, you just dont need to be bottom 3 to get into one of residencies at MGH.



If this is about dental research, Harvard + Forsyth is #2 while UF is #8. So they are both very prestigious if you look at their dental research.


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[Big Time Hoosier]

If this was medicine

But it's not.

Big Hoss

 

[FlowerGirll35]

What if you are interested in doing your residency at MGH, BWH, or Beth Israel?

If this was medicine, you would need to be top3 or do md phd for 9 years at UF to get into MGH residency. If you are just top 3, you can do primary care residency at MGH. If you are top3 and do md phd, you can do the specialty of your choice at MGH.

However if you go to Harvard med, you just dont need to be bottom 3 to get into one of residencies at MGH.



If this is about dental research, Harvard + Forsyth is #2 while UF is #8. So they are both very prestigious if you look at their dental research.


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THANK YOU! OMG I don't understand why people make such stupid choices.
You're a DMD/PhD student? That's impressive! It's nice to finally meet someone on these forums who know what they're talking about.

 

[LFA20]

Some of us want to be stupid with quality!
Others want to be enslaved to the war machine.
See, there is all sort of stupidity.

Since you all speak about money and cost. To begin with, isn't stupid to waste more than ten years or our life to end up dentists with mediocre reward, what is it 100k each year? Is that the reward for all the years of devotions.

Other smart people make it big from the stock market or doing small business with some brilliant ideas; we, on the other hand, will be working hard till the day we die or retire whichever comes first. If we got lucky and retired, that will be with a chronic back pain.

Life is stupid, at least he is going to Harvard, that is something worth bragging. Maybe he'll decide to become a president one day, that will help him in the long run.

What your HSPC will help you with in the long run beside getting deployed to Iran in the next oncoming war?

First its HPSP. Second, you will still be doing dentistry even when you are deployed. Also what is there to brag about when you are engulfed in 400k loan and are left with 40-50k to live on for 10-20 years? Your friend who graduated with a bachelor's from a no name university probably is making similar with very little to no debt.

 

[super frank]

First its HPSP. Second, you will still be doing dentistry even when you are deployed. Also what is there to brag about when you are engulfed in 400k loan and are left with 40-50k to live on for 10-20 years? Your friend who graduated with a bachelor's from a no name university probably is making similar with very little to no debt.

When did the average lifespan become 36?