Harvard Oral Board Review Course

[doctor4ever]

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I was wondering if anyone has taken the Harvard Board Review Course for the Oral Boards. Any feedback is appreciated.

 

[PsychDoc1]

I was wondering if anyone has taken the Harvard Board Review Course for the Oral Boards. Any feedback is appreciated.

ALL of the Board Review Courses are useless!
Don't even waste your money and time.
Failed after taking all of the courses:

1) Harvard-$1,000 for 2 days.
You get 1 interview for the money. No vignettes.
No decency to give you a repeat course if you fail.

2) Beat the Boards
1 interview and 1 set of vignettes. For $2,390!
Worse than Harvard-they don't even have any difficult patients. They bring some actor-type patients. It will be your luck if you have an easy patient like that during your exam.
The only good thing about them is that they give you a free course if you fail.

3) "Ultimate" by Dr. Spiegel. Two and a half days for $ 2,100, which includes 1 interview and 2 sets of vignettes.
Outrageous!
The passing rate for Part II, most frequently referred to by different sources is 50-60 per cent (well, ABPN does not dosclose the official statics).
In Dr. Spiegel's group, out of 5 candidates only 1 passed!
What is going on there?
No decency to give you a repeat course if you fail.

4) Osler Institute.
Live patients are for additional fee. Othewise, you will get 4 vignettes for $1,000, and will observe your peers for the rest of the time.

Again, don't waste your money.

 

[whopper]

I haven't done any of the above courses, but having done Kaplan's most intensive & expensive USMLE Step 1 course, and MCAT course, I thought both were wastes of money.

The books were useful, but that's it--the books. The rest of it was really just going over the books which I could've done on my own time. The courses were really just you paying a few thousand to go over the book.

I took the intensive course in NJ. They had the audacity to welcome us to study at their NYC office, so we could party at night in NYC (as if going under the Lincoln tunnel is something that truly makes one need to study in their NYC office), for only about $100/day, and mentioned that it was a special honor they were allowing for us. Mind you-this was just studying which involved me putting my backpack of books down on a desk & study. Its not like they were giving me a special tutor or breaking out the Kobe steaks.

Most residencies will help their residents & graduates with practicing for the exam.

I can't say if the above programs are worth it or not, but based on my Kaplan experience, I'm not going to do these courses anymore. I figure at least for me, going on the stand and being cross examined about 40 times by now has been practice enough.

 

[masterofmonkeys]

Personally, I think they're totally useless. Then again, I don't have to take the oral boards.

 

[kugel]

I took the Beat the Boards course (2009), and I thought it was pretty good.
And I passed.
Beat the Boards does not focus on teaching you psychiatry. It focuses squarely on PASSING.

I did pay for extra vignette and live patients - sat in on many others.
The live pts in the coarse are ACTUAL patients from the surrounding city- not actors. Like the ones in the real board exam, they have been through the interview many times, so they get a bit "practiced." My live patients in the course were mediocre (not hard, not really easy). I sat in on many difficult patients, and took notes as if I was the one interviewing (as instructed in the coarse) - and it did help in the exam.

The pass rates for the courses are difficult to analyze. The course students had mostly failed at least once already. And many are working with English as a second language. That doesn't excuse any difficulties they have, it's just the nature of the course participants. So the pass rates for course participants is going to be lower than the pass rate for the "general" pop'n of Board candidates.

 

[whopper]

Beat the Boards does not focus on teaching you psychiatry. It focuses squarely on PASSING.

I got the BTB notes as well as the Kaufmann notes.

Both are excellent, and I would highly recommend them in addition to the MGH manual. Haven't taken the exam yet, but I've done about 2500 questions, and those notes are very high yield.

Which is somewhat bothersome because IMHO it shows the weaknesses of multiple choice exams. One could for example read the big thick K&S book for months (which is REAL psychiatry) and not be able to pass the exam because that book is so big & thick that you couldn't repeat the high yield info multiple times.

 

[PsychDoc1]

I took the Beat the Boards course (2009), and I thought it was pretty good.
And I passed.
Beat the Boards does not focus on teaching you psychiatry. It focuses squarely on PASSING.

I did pay for extra vignette and live patients - sat in on many others.
The live pts in the coarse are ACTUAL patients from the surrounding city- not actors. Like the ones in the real board exam, they have been through the interview many times, so they get a bit "practiced." My live patients in the course were mediocre (not hard, not really easy). I sat in on many difficult patients, and took notes as if I was the one interviewing (as instructed in the coarse) - and it did help in the exam.

The pass rates for the courses are difficult to analyze. The course students had mostly failed at least once already. And many are working with English as a second language. That doesn't excuse any difficulties they have, it's just the nature of the course participants. So the pass rates for course participants is going to be lower than the pass rate for the "general" pop'n of Board candidates.

1) I paid for extra inteviews and vignettes, too. My "examiners" from the course faculty told me that I am likely to pass the exam, and I can see now how wrong they were!

2) Yes, they were real patients, but they were much more cooperative compared with my real-exam patient.

3) English is my second language, but I had no language-related issues
so far. Well, it was my first attempt, and I took all these useless courses to maximize my chances. I don't argue with the comment about the "nature of course participants", because we have no way to find out what exactly is wrong during the exam. I believe that I was "held responsible" for the patient's psychopathology during my exam. The major issue with all these courses is that they don't teach you how to deal with difficult patients.

4) I disagree that it's difficult to analyze the passing rate of course participants. You can't presume that people who attended the course, are likely to be deficient. It could be just anxiety, or previous positive experience with courses like Kaplan Medical, or advertising coupled with the fear of low passing rate for the oral Board, or even recommendations from a residency training director (what can be more pathetic!), that prompt people to take the Oral Board review course.

My point is that one should stay away from all courses like that, in order to save money, and not to feed these "experts" that run the courses.

 

[Doc Samson]

The major issue with all these courses is that they don't teach you how to deal with difficult patients.

Wasn't that the point of residency training?

 

[Anasazi23]

I equate the oral boards to the superbowl. The best team doesn't always win, and on any given Sunday (ironically, the day I had my exam), any team can lose to any other team.

Some of the best psychiatrists I know failed the orals - some more than once. That said, it's hard to say who passes now since they're phasing out the live interview.

In my exam, I had a nasty, reticent patient, who was sarcastic and difficult to interview. For the first few minutes of the interview, he didn't speak and had his head down on his chest as if he was sleeping. I actually had to get out of my chair and see if he was breathing and touch him.

He endorsed every symptom, including psychosis, anxiety/panic, depression, mania, drug abuse, legal history, suicidal ideation, command auditory hallucinations, and homicidal ideation. In short, this was the quintessential nightmare patient. Amazingly, he was an outpatient also, making my job that much harder.

I didn't even complete the social, legal, family, histories, and I had to cut the medical history short due to time after hearing that he had "two strokes" hypertension, diabetes, s/p abdominal surgeries secondary to gunshot wounds, glaucoma, arthritis, and gout.

I did almost nothing but a safety exam, and the presentation was all over the place, which is often a result of having a disorganized patient.

Interestingly, I had a feeling that despite his pathology, I passed the exam. And I did. I was much more upset about my vignette performance, which I did not approach in the correct manner. I learned on the busride back to the hotel how you're supposed to answer those questions. Two of the four vignettes were not straight forward at all. Even still, I'm not sure what they were looking for.

I didn't take a course, but did read the Beat the Boards notes, which were helpful I guess. THere is such a thing as overkill though. The most helpful thing was the notes and "script" I made after getting feedback from the 4 mocks I did. Of course, the script went out the window b/c my patient was so sick, but at least I knew what I was supposed to cover and it helped my presentation. The worst part is the friggin 'biopsychosocial' stuff you have to artificially cram into everything you say.

In short, just do mocks and get feedback.

 

[PsychDoc1]

Wasn't that the point of residency training?

Well, they probably teach you how to approach a difficult patient, but in real life, rather than in the Oral Board exam situation.

 

[PsychDoc1]

.........

In short, just do mocks and get feedback.

A good story!
Very subjective exam, of course. The key issue with failure is that one will never find out what factors resulted in failure.

I did mocks as well. Out of 15 interviews with 12 different examiners (including both inteviews during the courses and in several different hospitals) 13 examiners gave me a positive feedback, stating "you are likely to pass".

Absolutely agree with your final line. As long as you don't pay for the useless services, practice may be helpful-even though, I will never trust any feedback in the future.

 

[Anasazi23]

I might have missed this from skimming, but are you saying you didn't pass? Was this your first attempt? If you didn't pass, are you paying the $100 or whatever to get the score card? Do you know which section you failed (if you did?)

 

[PsychDoc1]

I might have missed this from skimming, but are you saying you didn't pass? Was this your first attempt? If you didn't pass, are you paying the $100 or whatever to get the score card? Do you know which section you failed (if you did?)

No, I did not pass.🙁
Yes, it was the first attempt.
I will not pay that money-for $100 they will tell you if you failed "patient-physician relationship", "conduct of the interview", "presentation", "diagnosis" or "treatment/ management". Superficial and useless information.

For failed vignettes it would be the number of vignettes failed.

 

[michaelrack]

Don't pay the $100 - you won't get any useful info.

I took the psych oral boards 5x- probably a record for this forum

Took the full beat the boards course 2x and 4 or 5 BTB refresher courses, and I often paid for extra live patients as well as videos (in the old days) and vignettes.

all that time and $ finally paid off.

I highly recommend the Beat the Boards Course.

 

[whopper]

There were mock boards in my residency quite often.

The biggest thing I hated about it was having doctor x mention that you shouldn't do something during the oral boards, then doctor y will say you should the do the thing that dr. x mentioned you shouldn't do.

Both doctors were board certified & test examiners--so WTF? Get it frackin straight board people--you either should or shouldn't do something. Its only about $1000 for the exam, a few days of my life and about another $1000 for the hotel room plane flight.

 

[michaelrack]

Most residencies these days (not all) do have mock orals- of the live patient examination.
Most do not prepare you for the vignettes

 

[PsychDoc1]

Don't pay the $100 - you won't get any useful info.

I took the psych oral boards 5x- probably a record for this forum

Took the full beat the boards course 2x and 4 or 5 BTB refresher courses, and I often paid for extra live patients as well as videos (in the old days) and vignettes.

all that time and $ finally paid off.

I highly recommend the Beat the Boards Course.

I actually read your story on your web site!

As for Beat the Boards, I believe, the best thing about the course is that they allow you to repeat the course for free, if you fail the exam.

My opinion about the course itself is that it is overpriced, and one can do the same thing practicing mock interviews with Board-certified psychiatrists in one's city. In fact, like I wrote before, I had 15 mock board interviews with 12 different exameners. Out of 12 mock examiners 10 told me that I am likely to pass. Those two who predicted the result more accurately, were not from Beat the Boards.

 

[PsychDoc1]

There were mock boards in my residency quite often.

The biggest thing I hated about it was having doctor x mention that you shouldn't do something during the oral boards, then doctor y will say you should the do the thing that dr. x mentioned you shouldn't do.

Both doctors were board certified & test examiners--so WTF? Get it frackin straight board people--you either should or shouldn't do something. Its only about $1000 for the exam, a few days of my life and about another $1000 for the hotel room plane flight.

That's exactly the reason why you shouldn't pay for any courses.
The consensus among examiners will only be seen about "major" deficiencies.

For example, if pt is tearful while telling you about rape or suicide, and you continue your line of questioning, e.g. ask the pt, "how far did you go to school?" You will fail because of empathetic failure.

Or, if you miss safety assessment.

Or, if your interview/ presentation is grossly disorganized.

Nobody will teach you how to handle most of the issues arising in the course of interview and presentation, moreover, you can't expect consensus among examiners themselves about many different things.

 

[Solideliquid]

We have mock boards (oral part and six or so vignettes) every year at my program. Isn't that enough if you do well on the mock boards geez? I'm not saying I won't pick up a book a few months or so before taking the orals but spending around $2000 for a course? That's too much.

 

[whopper]

The things they'd give us conflicting recomendations on...

Get the technical stuff out of the way first--e.g. ask medical problems, past psych history, allergies etc first--get it out of the way so it won't intefere with the flow of the interview where the person elaborates on their problems.

Then--other people stated you have to get the chief complaint out of the way first, claiming that was the way it was supposed to be done, and if you deviated from that format, you were taking a risk.

Others--if you suspect homosexuality (e.g. effiminate voice on a male, person is a fashion designer, person mentions disapproval from the parents), ask the person if he is gay.

Then, another guy mentioned its too confrontational.

All in all, the interview should be scored more on the order of the CSA exam. There has to be specific technicals the person has to do--e.g. wash hands, mention to the patient what's going on, educate them, give them options etc.

The psyche boards IMHO is too subjective, and if its not, the board certified examiners certainly portrayed it as such given their conflicting statements.

 

[PsychDoc1]

The things they'd give us conflicting recomendations on...

Get the technical stuff out of the way first--e.g. ask medical problems, past psych history, allergies etc first--get it out of the way so it won't intefere with the flow of the interview where the person elaborates on their problems.

Then--other people stated you have to get the chief complaint out of the way first, claiming that was the way it was supposed to be done, and if you deviated from that format, you were taking a risk.

Others--if you suspect homosexuality (e.g. effiminate voice on a male, person is a fashion designer, person mentions disapproval from the parents), ask the person if he is gay.

Then, another guy mentioned its too confrontational.

All in all, the interview should be scored more on the order of the CSA exam. There has to be specific technicals the person has to do--e.g. wash hands, mention to the patient what's going on, educate them, give them options etc.

The psyche boards IMHO is too subjective, and if its not, the board certified examiners certainly portrayed it as such given their conflicting statements.

Here we go!

I met a psychiatrist during one of my Board review courses.
She was so harshly criticized by a course instructor after her first live patient interview, that she decided not to show up for the other two pre-paid interviews!
In a month she received a notice of passing performance and congratulations with getting Board Certification.

On the other hand, many candidates including myself, heard mostly positive feedback after their course interviews, "you are likely to pass" etc, only to receive notice of failure after the exam.

The question remains, if it is worth paying for grossly overpriced courses whose feedback doesn't have any correlation with subsequent exam performance.🙁

 

[whopper]

I bet you the reliability & validity of these oral exams are pretty low.

I do think there should be an oral exam for board certification, just that it needs to be based on something REAL & objective such as the person knowing their DSM criteria, picking the right medications, conducting onself based on objective critera (eye contact, ponounciation) etc.

Given the price of the exam, the inconvenience and the subjectivity which is a load of bull, they ought to conduct these exams in a better manner. Yeah, I know they're getting rid of it, but IMHO, giving control to the residencies just increases the BS factor. There ought to be a national standard that's objective.

However I'd rather have the residencies control it than what's going on now. At least this way the person doesn't have to spend a few thousand $ on a BS test.

 

[Anasazi23]

Don't pay the $100 - you won't get any useful info.

I took the psych oral boards 5x- probably a record for this forum

Took the full beat the boards course 2x and 4 or 5 BTB refresher courses, and I often paid for extra live patients as well as videos (in the old days) and vignettes.

Somehow I missed reading this post earlier.

It nearly gave me a full-blown panic attack in my office.

 

[tamerwassef]

Xxx

 

[whopper]

Here he goes right again. I deleted this post.

But I'll chime on this thread. IMHO some of those oral board review courses are so expensive because the people conducting them are selling you confidence. It really could've been done for a heck of a lot less money but they want to make money off of insecure doctors. It's kind of like someone with cancer willing to try anything such as sticking coffee up their anus or apricot seed (Laetrile) treatment. Anyone not desperate will be able to see it for what it is, but when you've got terminal cancer, the fear factor can make you lose your objective reasoning. (And I'm not blaming anyone who does that because I can think of things I've done when desperate I regretted).

I have seen the notes of some of those courses and they're actually quite well done, but they're not worth a few thousand dollars. If you just get a buddy to practice with, you're going to get better training than to pay some guy a few thousand for what is just about 30 minutes. If one guy said you'll pass it's almost irrelevant because another guy could've said you'd fail based on the same exact performance. The exam is very subjective in how it's graded.

It's just like those Kaplan USMLE courses. You could get all the books for a few hundred bucks, but if you actually take a course, now some guy, for several thousand dollars, will just teach you what is already in the book. YAY!

Hmm, I need some money, hey I'll make a board-review course, not really know what I'm teaching and charge people $5000 for a half hour session. oh wait they're getting rid of the oral boards. Drats. Now that said, I'm sure some of these people are quite knowledge and will give you good teaching but for the rate, and given the subjectivity IMHO it's not worth it.

Anasazi you're back!?!?! This is like Han Solo getting removed from Carbonite or the cast of the original Star Trek coming together to make another new episode!!m Oh wait, the post is from 2009. I just saw the 7-14 and thought it was yesterday.

 

[whopper]

Just heard back from the editors..SDN does enforce certain things but not others. They told me we do not enforce selling of notes even if there's a contractual obligation to not do so....So tamerwassef, knock yourself out. Ask away for anyone who wants to sell old notes.

But I advise you to not put up your personal e-mail though this time if you do so I will not edit your post due to roving robot spam software.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

Just heard back from the editors..SDN does enforce certain things but not others. They told me we do not enforce selling of notes even if there's a contractual obligation to not do so....So tamerwassef, knock yourself out. Ask away for anyone who wants to sell old notes.

But I advise you to not put up your personal e-mail though this time if you do so I will not edit your post due to roving robot spam software.

While it's true that we don't enforce End User Agreements that might or might not prohibit the resale of course/lecture material or books, any requests to BUY or SELL these materials should ONLY be made in SDN's free Classifieds section and NOT on the Psychiatry forum or any of the other professional forums. Thanks.

 

[whopper]

😍Thanks Mommy!

 

[OldPsychDoc]

...
Anasazi you're back!?!?! This is like Han Solo getting removed from Carbonite or the cast of the original Star Trek coming together to make another new episode!!m Oh wait, the post is from 2009. I just saw the 7-14 and thought it was yesterday.

🤣