Harvard vs. Columbia - Where should I go?

[ItsGavinC]

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What, like 900 apply, and only 50 get offered a spot? Um, sounds competetive to me poncho!! Those that do get accepted are the cream of the applicant pool no doubt.

You're confusing the two ideas of something being competitive (which is based on sheer numbers of applicants) with something having stringent entrance requirements (or in the case of dental admissions, very high averages for matriculants).

There are many schools that are more competitive than Harvard from a numbers standpoint.

There aren't many (if any?) who have higher matriculant averages.

 

[gryffindor]

You like this post?! 😕

Correct me if i'm wrong, but in another thread gavin said you had great board scores, high class rank, and GPR experience - yet you didn't get into ortho after two tries. Is it because you weren't committed? Or because you didn' "push yourself?" Probably not. Getting into ortho or oral surgery is competetive and admissions are unpredictable. So, why not go to harvard and have a leg up before they even open your file?

Uh, I didn't doubt that Harvard may give you a leg up even before opening your file. Go back and read my reply to the OP's question on post #4 on this thread. Actually, to make it easier, I've pasted it below.

Harvard.

The class is much smaller and has a very high percent of students matching into specialties they want. If OMFS is really what you want, then it isn't going to matter that you can't cut a crown prep in 5 minutes (in regard to the "Harvard has less clinical experience" comment).

I meant I liked the post by tx oms b/c pre-dents are always under the impression that getting into specialty programs will be "easier" if they attend a school with "name recognition." What tx oms wrote applied to any student at any dental school who is determined to specialize.

 

[SuperTrooper]

I meant I liked the post by tx oms b/c pre-dents are always under the impression that getting into specialty programs will be "easier" if they attend a schools with "name recognition." What tx oms wrote applied to any student at any dental school who is determined to specialize.

I'm sorry i didn't catch your earlier comments - this thread is way too long!! 😱

I'm still confused by your above post. I think most would agree that getting into specialty programs will be easier if you go to Harvard. Like if you knew you were gonna go for ortho, and your only two choices were tufts and harvard - you'd go with harvard right?!

Or were you referring more to crap schools with recognition like Columbia. 😕

 

[SuperTrooper]

No offense to columbia of course. I just believe that any school that would admit a chimp like me has to be crap. one love.

 

[realysa]

yea, i go to columbia

more or less i agree with supertrooper. columbia is pretty crappy along with alll the other dental schools.

reputations are made by research and unfortunately dental schools don't due a lot of it. we "ivy league" dental students pretty much ride the reputation of the stronger schools w/i the university.

the state dental schools undoubtedly get the cream of the dental crop, while the privates get the rest.

when SDN posters say how good their dental schools are compared to the others, it sounds as if the losers i went to high school with are saying how much better deVry's A/C maintenence program is compared to ITT's

with that said, i do believe that dentists are grudgingly respected by other health care professionals,the educated general public, and the media b/c schools like columbia, harvard, ucsf, ucla, and penn exist. unfortunately, in the recent past many elite schools such as washu, northwestern, georgetown, and emory have closed down their dental schools and basically were replaced with schools such as nova and arizona. moreover, nyu is now joined with the nursing school. i think these events have tarnished our reps.

i bet in the future that the next schools to go down will be the dental schools assoc. with the elite institutions b/c we are dead weight. most private schools are not profiitable and sure don't get govt funding like their med school counterparts. only state subsidies allow dental schools to operate for most part.

 

[SuperTrooper]

wow, you seem pretty jaded about dentistry my friend. Are you like burnt-out right now cause of exams or clinic?! I don't think dentistry is received as bad as you make it out to be.

Although I agree that columbia isn't that great of a school, there are still great private institutions like, um, Harvard. Boost up your energy man!! Dentistry is an awesome career. Maybe when you're a little older you'll realize what a great decision you've made.

Cookie-cutter factory schools like Nova & Arizona & UNLV are a problem I agree. But these are still young schools (Arizona opened like 2 yrs ago I hear). Things are always changing my columbian friend. May the force be with you.

Johnny Chimpo

yea, i go to columbia

more or less i agree with supertrooper. columbia is pretty crappy along with alll the other dental schools.

reputations are made by research and unfortunately dental schools don't due a lot of it. we "ivy league" dental students pretty much ride the reputation of the stronger schools w/i the university.

the state dental schools undoubtedly get the cream of the dental crop, while the privates get the rest.

when SDN posters say how good their dental schools are compared to the others, it sounds as if the losers i went to high school with are saying how much better deVry's A/C maintenence program is compared to ITT's

with that said, i do believe that dentists are grudgingly respected by other health care professionals,the educated general public, and the media b/c schools like columbia, harvard, ucsf, ucla, and penn exist. unfortunately, in the recent past many elite schools such as washu, northwestern, georgetown, and emory have closed down their dental schools and basically were replaced with schools such as nova and arizona. moreover, nyu is now joined with the nursing school. i think these events have tarnished our reps.

i bet in the future that the next schools to go down will be the dental schools assoc. with the elite institutions b/c we are dead weight. most private schools are not profiitable and sure don't get govt funding like their med school counterparts. only state subsidies allow dental schools to operate for most part.

 

[SuperTrooper]

I just read your post again more carefully, and it made me cry. 🙁 🙁 Please refrain from posting here in the future.

Oh, and by the way, DeVry kicks ITT's ass!!! sucka!! 😛 😀

 

[realysa]

US Newa and World Report 2005
Technical Schools-A/C Repair

1. ITT Technical Institute
2. Kaplan University
3. Princeton Review Course
4. DeVry
5. Columbia
6. Harvard
7. University of Alaksa at Anchorage (????)
8. University of Phoenix (distance learning program)
9. NYU School of Dentistry, Nursing, and Indoor Climate Control Services
10. Temple School of Dentistry (no theory of climate control taught, but very speedy installation and repair abilities of graduates)

 

[Gulch]

US Newa and World Report 2005
Technical Schools-A/C Repair

1. ITT Technical Institute
2. Kaplan University
3. Princeton Review Course
4. DeVry
5. Columbia
6. Harvard
7. University of Alaksa at Anchorage (????)
8. University of Phoenix (distance learning program)
9. NYU School of Dentistry, Nursing, and Indoor Climate Control Services
10. Temple School of Dentistry (no theory of climate control taught, but very speedy installation and repair abilities of graduates)

So, you think everybody's wound up a little tight? I do, but after reading your previous post I hope you don't take a long walk off a short pier...

 

[tx oms]

Does "Harvard" help you get an oral surgery interview? Does "Harvard" help you get into oral surgery? Maybe and no. There are no Harvard grads in my program and the majority of people we interview are not from Harvard on and other Ivy League school. Every school set their criteria for offering interviews differently. Some will be more awed by Harvard than others. I'm sure Ivy League names turn some residencies off. I see Harvard, I think, "Here's an applicant who wants me to be impressed by his school. He's going to have to work double hard to impress me." I can't stand brand name worship.

Other people/residencies will be excited about Harvard. They may offer a spot to a dud from Harvard just b/c he's from Harvard, has a high GPA, high boards, etc.

Bottom line, the name may help you get an interview or even get into SOME programs, but over all you will not be helped by going to an Ivy League school or hindered by going to a state school. You get into oral surgery b/c you want to be an oral surgeon. If you can't get in no matter what you try, start wondering what you're doing wrong. Where you went to dental school is not the answer.

Here's what helps you get into oral surgery:
1. Grades
2. Class rank
3. Board scores
4. Successful externships (you impress people)
5. Knowing people
6. Extracurriculars that show dedication

It doesn't take all of these. It probably takes about three or four of these thing. If you don't get in, you do an intership and still don't get in, you've probably got a personality disorder.

 

[SuperTrooper]

I see Harvard, I think, "Here's an applicant who wants me to be impressed by his school. He's going to have to work double hard to impress me." I can't stand brand name worship.

Uhh.. I think you're the one with the personality disorder my texan friend. I don't believe i even have to say anything to demonstrate the ******edness of your above comment. But I can't help myself. Brand name worship?! There are other reasons an individual may choose to go to Harvard you know. It's the cheapest school in Boston, it's got the only true PBL program on the east coast, it's got the smallest dental school class size, probably the most medically-based school, etc. I'm not saying qualities like these make harvard a great dental school. It's just that a person (w desires you don't know about) may be particularly attracted to one of these factors, and not the Harvard name. Harvard is unique in many ways. Other things come into play when selecting a school you know. 🙄

You seem pretty prejudiced about things. Maybe you should work on that. When you first meet a really hot girl you're probably like: "Oh man, she probably thinks she's soo hot and that she could get any guy she wanted. I hate people like her so much! Screw her!!" Oh, and what if that hot girl went to HSDM?! 😛 I think your head would probably implode.

Other people/residencies will be excited about Harvard. They may offer a spot to a dud from Harvard just b/c he's from Harvard, has a high GPA, high boards, etc.

Yes. Case closed.




Dr. Chimp u r my hero

 

[SuperTrooper]

tx_oms. I think that you are poorly representing the state of San Antonio. Please discontinue all negative commentary. Or chop off your fingers so that you are unable to type.

 

[The Godfather]

tx_oms. I think that you are poorly representing the state of San Antonio. Please discontinue all negative commentary. Or chop off your fingers so that you are unable to type.

Now delicious, I mean "SuperTrooper", surely you don't mean that.

 

[mzalendo]

I really don't understand why the tex oms is so angry. You really do get bronchiospasms and by your malreasoning an abundance of cerebral ischemia at the mention of Harvard. Chill out. Harvard's a great school, San Antonio as well and rightfully so. Relax take a walk or something

 

[ItsGavinC]

Now delicious, I mean "SuperTrooper", surely you don't mean that.

It gets old, doesn't it.

 

[ItsGavinC]

I really don't understand why the tex oms is so angry. You really do get bronchiospasms and by your malreasoning an abundance of cerebral ischemia at the mention of Harvard. Chill out. Harvard's a great school, San Antonio as well and rightfully so. Relax take a walk or something

Nobody said anything about Harvard not being great. TX OMS has two things going for him in this thread:

1) He's a resident in an amazing program
2) He's given one of the only helpful posts in this thread: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=2552324&postcount=63

 

[mzalendo]

For someone who is so well posted Gavin I have lot of difficulty determining when you are being sarcastic. I have been at loggerheads with you in the past over the Harvard issue in previous posts I really don't know what to make sense of you response. Let this matter rest.

...Just out of curiosity, why is Harvard the most assailed dental school on SDN ?

 

[The Godfather]

I really don't understand why the tex oms is so angry. You really do get bronchiospasms and by your malreasoning an abundance of cerebral ischemia at the mention of Harvard. Chill out. Harvard's a great school, San Antonio as well and rightfully so. Relax take a walk or something

Is that Harvard humor? You sound like friggin' C3PO. You guys need to stop studying so hard and relax yourselves

 

[OMFS2B]

I've never figured out the term "Ivy League Dental School". When I think of the best dental schools they are all public, UNC, San Antonio, U. of Washington, UCLA etc. US News and Report's last ranking of dental schools would support this claim. The trully smart people go to these great schools and graduate with half the debt. Dental schools are the most expensive graduate programs to run and private schools can match the funding of public schools. What really matters is experience in the chair. I've met graduates from "Ivy League Dental Schools" who haven't cut five crowns. Graduates from state schools are getting their own operatory, cutting 40+ crowns, a ton of molar endo and placing/restoring implants. I would choose experience any day over school name. The school may be Ivy League but the program isn't!

 

[ItsGavinC]

...Just out of curiosity, why is Harvard the most assailed dental school on SDN ?

Probably because it has the highest rate of students demanding that it's the best. That fact is usually sandwiched between the idea that we've all been instilled with since day one of kindergarden: go to a top-name institution. Dentistry is a professional degree where school name matters least. Name is hugely important is business, law, and medicine. It certainly can factor into dentistry, but nowhere near the extent of those other professions.

Just some thoughts.

 

[DDSSlave]

Dentistry is a professional degree where school name matters least. Name is hugely important is business, law, and medicine. It certainly can factor into dentistry, but nowhere near the extent of those other professions.

If only more predents realized this... oh well. 😴

 

[LordLister]

Dentistry is a professional degree where school name matters least. Name is hugely important is business, law, and medicine. It certainly can factor into dentistry, but nowhere near the extent of those other professions.

This is absolute rubbish. Ask any pre-med, med student, or MD why name is important in choosing a medical school? Your likley response will be that a Harvard medical degree will guarantee admission into any residency. How is this different from dentistry?

Harvard med as well as other ivy med schools are also commonly criticized for lack of clinical exposure during medical school. Check out the pre-med forums. Are these criticisms valid? Do these claims detract from the reputation or educational experience at HMS or HSDM? Any graduate of these institutions will tell you no.

 

[ItsGavinC]

This is absolute rubbish. Ask any pre-med, med student, or MD why name is important in choosing a medical school? Your likley response will be that a Harvard medical degree will guarantee admission into any residency. How is this different from dentistry?

This topic has been discussed ad nauseam, at least three times a month, for the past 3 years. The consensus among those who are current residents seems to be that name, while important in some instances, does not carry the weight that it does in the other professions I mentioned. By and large it's a pre-dental myth that a) your patients will care where you graduated from and b) graduating from a certain school will give you a lock on residency.

This is a general comment about all schools.

 

[tx oms]

Excellent posts Gavin. Thanks for the support.

Delicious, I have restrained myself. Sufficient to say you live in the world many teenagers find themselves: one full of teen angst and suspicion of elders, one that questions all those who have already done what you are looking to do, and one where you reject the advice of the experienced.

I do not question whether Harvard is good or not, I do no question that about 3 out of the ~100 OMS programs in the country will be impressed by the name (in fact, delicious, you could be the dud from Harvard I mentioned). I do question the decision to attend Harvard in light of the fact that it is overpriced for little benefit.

Delicious, this thread was about which dental school would help you get into an OMFS residency. Fact is, Harvard is not necessary to get into OMFS. Neither is the debt load. So, despite your rambling about PBL and small class sizes, the OP was not concerned with any benefit besides which would help him get into OMFS.

Finally, PBL is stupid.

"I went to Harvard!"
"Oh, did you?"

 

[realysa]

i agree that privates cannot compete with publics for resources. i think the reason people put so much value on brand names is b/c for most of us it legitimizes us.

for top private dental schools, you'll find that a significant number of us went to elite private undergrad instit., while at your great state dental schools such as UT-SA students you'll find a majority attended undergrad instit such as UT schools, sam houston state, prairieview state, abilene state, hardin-simmons, lubbock christian u, our lady of the lake u, wayland baptist u, tarleton state, stephan f austin, lamar u, howard-payne, angelo state, and other academic powerhouses of the state.

i think this is the reason that students at columbia, penn, harvard are a little full of themselves. our thinking is "we spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on our undergrad ed to attend a fancy school, so we must be better than our state school colleagues who probably spent $1000/year to graduate from prairie dog A&M with a major in animal husbandry.

for you state schoolers, this is how we think and legitimize our existence. get used to it, b/c a lot of academics think this way even the state ones.

 

[LordLister]

This topic has been discussed ad nauseam, at least three times a month, for the past 3 years. The consensus among those who are current residents seems to be that name, while important in some instances, does not carry the weight that it does in the other professions I mentioned. By and large it's a pre-dental myth that a) your patients will care where you graduated from and b) graduating from a certain school will give you a lock on residency.

This is a general comment about all schools.

Gavin;

I'm currently an OMFS resident, and I can tell you that that you are wrong. I agree with other posts which state that the most important indicator for admission to an OMFS residency (perhaps any residency) is part 1 board scores. Harvard has the highest part 1 scores in the country, no class rank. Harvard students have much less/no worry about competition and matching into the specialty of their choice than at your average school. By and large, graduating from HSDM does give you a lock on residency (unless you want to end up at San Antonio). Obviously almost anyone with high board scores and solid class rank from any school can match into the specialty of their choice. It's just less fun/not as easy.

 

[ItsGavinC]

Gavin;

I'm currently an OMFS resident, and I can tell you that that you are wrong. I agree with other posts which state that the most important indicator for admission to an OMFS residency (perhaps any residency) is part 1 board scores. Harvard has the highest part 1 scores in the country, no class rank. Harvard students have much less/no worry about competition and matching into the specialty of their choice than at your average school. By and large, graduating from HSDM does give you a lock on residency (unless you want to end up at San Antonio). Obviously almost anyone with high board scores and solid class rank from any school can match into the specialty of their choice. It's just less fun/not as easy.

Good post with some excellent points and valuable insight. My underlying point is that those ranked in top 5 from Iowa, or Virginia Commonwealth, or school X can also easily match into their specialty of choice. What you are mentioning and what I'm mentioning are two different things. You are saying the Harvard name is big for residencies by virtue of the Part I scores associated with Harvard. I'll be the first to admit that Harvard obviously has their game together or their students wouldn't rock the boards each year. I can't deny that, but the student still has to work to obtain those scores, right?

What I'm saying is that I'm saying that Harvard by name actually does little for a dental student, and I stand by that. The opposite of this would be that a student ranked 25th at Harvard would have a better shot at a residency than a student ranked #5 or #6 at another school, and I believe that to be false.

To sum my opinion: Harvard opens doors and has resources to allow students to maximize their potential. In my opinion this goes for all schools, although some schools (such as Harvard) will have better resources for students to assist them through dental school.

 

[DDSSlave]

If you can get into Harvard, you can succeed in any state dental school. The die hard Harvard supporters have you believe that a Harvard student with a lower board score doesn't need to worry; the Harvard name will be their key to whatever OMS, ortho, or endo programs they want. Of course this isn't true.

 

[goldstar]

Harvard doesn't rank. Furthermore, I'm sick of these threads. As I've said before, I don't rail on anyone's decision to go to a state school, so stop bashing my choice to spend MY money. Get over it. Don't forget that there are actually quite a few dental schools that are more expensive than Harvard, but I don't see any threads complaining about how they're not worth the money.

 

[DDSSlave]

Harvard doesn't rank. Furthermore, I'm sick of these threads. As I've said before, I don't rail on anyone's decision to go to a state school, so stop bashing my choice to spend MY money. Get over it. Don't forget that there are actually quite a few dental schools that are more expensive than Harvard, but I don't see any threads complaining about how they're not worth the money.

I corrected my post to reflect this. Nevertheless, whether or not they rank has no barring on its point. And there are plenty of threads that discuss how private schools are generally not worth the money. These discussions pop up because of disillusioned predents or dental students carrying a myth that the Harvard (or other private school) name is their ticket into residency. It's a very expensive myth on which to base a career decision. There are good reasons to attend a given private school. Location, amenities, atmosphere... but carrying a brand name into your residency interview isn't one of them.

 

[drben]

Good post with some excellent points and valuable insight. My underlying point is that those ranked in top 5 from Iowa, or Virginia Commonwealth, or school X can also easily match into their specialty of choice. What you are mentioning and what I'm mentioning are two different things. You are saying the Harvard name is big for residencies by virtue of the Part I scores associated with Harvard. I'll be the first to admit that Harvard obviously has their game together or their students wouldn't rock the boards each year. I can't deny that, but the student still has to work to obtain those scores, right?

What I'm saying is that I'm saying that Harvard by name actually does little for a dental student, and I stand by that. The opposite of this would be that a student ranked 25th at Harvard would have a better shot at a residency than a student ranked #5 or #6 at another school, and I believe that to be false.

To sum my opinion: Harvard opens doors and has resources to allow students to maximize their potential. In my opinion this goes for all schools, although some schools (such as Harvard) will have better resources for students to assist them through dental school.

Take it from someone who was on the inside...it doesn't matter where the hell you went to dental school. All that matters when it comes down to selecting candidates for interviews are 1. Class Rank 2. Board scores 3. No ridiculous comments in your personal statement that assert that you are "more qualified than other applicants because..." 4. No negative comments in letters of recommendation.

The notion that you are going to get an interview based solely upon attending an "Ivy League Dental School" is laughable. The only disagreement I have with Gavin is that I doubt (even though I could be wrong) HSDM does anything different in preparing their students for Part I boards than any other dental school. When it all comes down to it, your sucess on the Boards depends on how much you are willing to sacrifice to study for it...

Ben (Alumnus of some pretty podunk state schools---Weber State, Virginia, Indiana...and damn proud of it!) 😉

 

[AUG2UAG]

Good post with some excellent points and valuable insight. My underlying point is that those ranked in top 5 from Iowa, or Virginia Commonwealth, or school X can also easily match into their specialty of choice. What you are mentioning and what I'm mentioning are two different things. You are saying the Harvard name is big for residencies by virtue of the Part I scores associated with Harvard. I'll be the first to admit that Harvard obviously has their game together or their students wouldn't rock the boards each year. I can't deny that, but the student still has to work to obtain those scores, right?

What I'm saying is that I'm saying that Harvard by name actually does little for a dental student, and I stand by that. The opposite of this would be that a student ranked 25th at Harvard would have a better shot at a residency than a student ranked #5 or #6 at another school, and I believe that to be false.

To sum my opinion: Harvard opens doors and has resources to allow students to maximize their potential. In my opinion this goes for all schools, although some schools (such as Harvard) will have better resources for students to assist them through dental school.

Take it from someone who was on the inside...it doesn't matter where the hell you went to dental school. All that matters when it comes down to selecting candidates for interviews are 1. Class Rank 2. Board scores 3. No ridiculous comments in your personal statement that assert that you are "more qualified than other applicants because..." 4. No negative comments in letters of recommendation.

The notion that you are going to get an interview based solely upon attending an "Ivy League Dental School" is laughable. The only disagreement I have with Gavin is that I doubt (even though I could be wrong) HSDM does anything different in preparing their students for Part I boards than any other dental school. When it all comes down to it, your sucess on the Boards depends on how much you are willing to sacrifice to study for it...

Ben (Alumnus of some pretty podunk state schools---Weber State, Virginia, Indiana...and damn proud of it!) 😉

agreed 👍 👍

 

[SuperTrooper]

I am not this person "delicious" you say I am!! haha. But that's okay; I'll try and keep my posts more tame in the future. Thanks for your advice Godfather, appreciate it. 😀

Sufficient to say you live in the world many teenagers find themselves: one full of teen angst and suspicion of elders, one that questions all those who have already done what you are looking to do, and one where you reject the advice of the experienced.

No, this isn't the case. I actually do have a lot of respect for D3s and D4s, and especially the specialists. I don't know anything compared to them. But ultimately, you didn't graduate from harvard, and that is why I'm playing devil's advocate. From your earlier post, I think you said you were sorta mid-way in your class in terms of ranking and stuff. Congrats on getting into OMFS, but I think some people would say that you "beat the odds" a little bit. If you had some info on all people who matched into oral surgery, i bet you'd see that their average class rank is pretty high; way higher than mid-way.

So, despite your rambling about PBL and small class sizes, the OP was not concerned with any benefit besides which would help him get into OMFS.

True. But I was addressing your prejudice against harvard students, which I felt was very unfair. Just cause you go to harvard, doesn't mean you're all about wanting people to think you're better than them. But I agree with you on PBL, I think it's dumb. But read my post more carefully; I didn't say that any of those things make harvard a good school. I just listed a couple of reason's why someone may want to go to harvard; to counteract your comment that people who go to harvard go there just cause of the "brand name" to impress people.

I'll stop posting in this thread before I get into anymore trouble. But let me say that tx_oms is prolly right. If you want something bad enough you'll probably get it ultimately (may take a few yrs longer though). And San Antonio, even I know that it's a great school. That 1993 gourman report (i know, go ahead an flame me), ranks it like number 1 or number 2 me thinks.

 

[Romas]

Most OMFS didn't go to either one, so save your money and go elsewhere. If you're counting on your dental school's rep to get you a spot in residency think again.

I'm a graduated general dentist, and I have to say that this is just not true. Rep definitely matters in the dental academic world.

 

[diasIItema]

I'm a graduated general dentist, and I have to say that this is just not true. Rep definitely matters in the dental academic world.

Cool. I'll be sure to mention that I turned down Harvard then if I decide to pursue a residency. Personally, if money wasn't an issue I would have gone to Columbia. Withdrew b/c it cost too much. Chose my state school over Harvard b/c, well, I just liked it more: better people, better facilities, better city, better environment, better clinical reputation. People focus too much on the name of the institution rather than the individual. Open your own doors; you'll be better for it.

I also don't know why we're responding to a 7 year old thread.