Has Ben Carson made a mockery of NS?

[chipwhitley]

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I think the absolute craziest thing about him is saying Harriet Tubman shouldn't kick A. Jackson off the $20. I mean, the dude is BLACK. And, he's not even in the race anymore. How could you not support a figure like Tubman over someone who basically was a genocider??

Let's be honest though, in terms of the forced relocation of Native Americans, Jackson just did what most of the American public wanted him to do. You can't judge him based on your 2016 values. You need to consider the context. He has many accomplishments including being the first and only president to pay off the entire national debt. He also essentially founded the modern Democratic party and solved the Nullification crisis preventing S. Carolina from seceeding. He secured Florida from Spain and defeated the British at the battle of New Orleans. The american geography would be pretty different if he hadn't been there.

 

[pitman]

The guy became the youngest chief of pediatric neurosurgery at Johns Hopkins Univeristy as an African American male. The dude was a rockstar - let's not let political feelings get in the way of reality.

Not that I doubt he's an excellent surgeon, but the qualification of African American would have helped, not hindered.

 

[deleted407021]

I think the absolute craziest thing about him is saying Harriet Tubman shouldn't kick A. Jackson off the $20. I mean, the dude is BLACK. And, he's not even in the race anymore. How could you not support a figure like Tubman over someone who basically was a genocider??

Like has been mentioned before -- Carson is good at self-promotion. It's blatantly obvious that he's using the racist tendencies of the demographic that he wants(ed) to vote for him (conservative white evangelicals) to his favor. The image of the "po little black boy what was made successful by the merciful white man" is appealing to a lot of people. It's shameful that he encourages these ideas while also giving up a lot of credit for his own successes.

 

[pitman]

It's nonetheless terrible phrasing in this case.

Why? Whites can be trained like monkeys, but blacks can't?

 

[chipwhitley]

Why? Whites can be trained like monkeys, but blacks can't?

If 'monkey' was a racial slur against whites, then it would be a problem there too.

 

[pitman]

I think the absolute craziest thing about him is saying Harriet Tubman shouldn't kick A. Jackson off the $20. I mean, the dude is BLACK. And, he's not even in the race anymore. How could you not support a figure like Tubman over someone who basically was a genocider??

Recognising Jackson for his accomplishments IN SPITE OF his slave-owning (making him a 'genocider'? really?) is analogous to recognising Carson for his neurosurgical skills IN SPITE OF his idiotic views. Oh the irony.

 

[pitman]

If 'monkey' was a racial slur against whites, then it would be a problem there too.

I think you mean, "if 'monkey' can be used as a racial slur against whites..." and then the absurdity of the double standard becomes clearer. As if racism (or irony) had nothing to do with intent.

 

[chipwhitley]

Recognising Jackson for his accomplishments IN SPITE OF his slave-owning (making him a 'genocider'? really?) is analogous to recognising Carson for his neurosurgical skills IN SPITE OF his idiotic views. Oh the irony.

Except slave owning was normal in Jackson's time. Everyone had slaves. Carson's idiotic views are not normal today. Also, the genocider part refers to the Trail of Tears, not the slaves.

 

[pitman]

Like has been mentioned before -- Carson is good at self-promotion. It's blatantly obvious that he's using the racist tendencies of the demographic that he wants(ed) to vote for him (conservative white evangelicals) to his favor. The image of the "po little black boy what was made successful by the merciful white man" is appealing to a lot of people. It's shameful that he encourages these ideas while also giving up a lot of credit for his own successes.

It sounds an awful like you're saying that Carson's respect for Jackson exemplifies what makes him an in-authentic black man (indeed, that he's an Uncle Tom). Meanwhile, 'monkey' used in a traditional, race-neutral manner is offensive?? Damn.

 

[pitman]

Except slave owning was normal in Jackson's time. Everyone had slaves. Carson's idiotic views are not normal today. Also, the genocider part refers to the Trail of Tears, not the slaves.

What does normalcy have to do with anything? It used to be de rigeur to be anti-Semitic (and now again, for many so-called progressives)...

I'm not dismissing Jackson's accomplishments btw, and I think it an absurd political ploy to suggest the he be replaced by Tubman.

 

[chipwhitley]

I'm not dismissing Jackson's accomplishments btw, and I think it an absurd political ploy to suggest the he be replaced by Tubman.

At least we agree on something.

 

[deleted407021]

It sounds an awful like you're saying that Carson's respect for Jackson exemplifies what makes him an in-authentic black man (indeed, that he's an Uncle Tom). Meanwhile, 'monkey' used in a traditional, race-neutral manner is offensive?? Damn.

I'm not talking about his opinion of Andrew Jackson. I was referring to his self characterization and how he presents his persona to the public.

When I first saw that poster use the turn of phrase, the racist connotation that could be interpreted didn't occur to me. I don't think it's expressly racist to use that idiom in that context, but, like other posters of pointed out, it was a bit in bad form.

 

[pitman]

I'm not talking about his opinion of Andrew Jackson. I was referring to his self characterization and how he presents his persona to the public.

Ok, so he's an Uncle Tom for other reasons?

When I first saw that poster use the turn of phrase, the racist connotation that could be interpreted didn't occur to me. I don't think it's expressly racist to use that idiom in that context, but, like other posters of pointed out, it was a bit in bad form.

If not racist, and not intending to be so, how so in bad form? And how differently than say, ironic use?

 

[Zywie]

I'm not talking about his opinion of Andrew Jackson. I was referring to his self characterization and how he presents his persona to the public.

When I first saw that poster use the turn of phrase, the racist connotation that could be interpreted didn't occur to me. I don't think it's expressly racist to use that idiom in that context, but, like other posters of pointed out, it was a bit in bad form.

Except the way he presents his persona is nothing the way you described. In fact its the exact opposite. Carson doesn't say he was made successful from anyone other than himself. In fact the way you claim he presents himself, is exactly what he is against. Time and time again he has emphasized the importance of his mother being strict with him in regards to his education, pushing him and his brother to excel academically despite not having an education herself. He constantly says that hard work and accepting responsibility for your own actions are ways to over come adversity and be successful. He wants to give people the necessary tools rise up and overcome obstacles they face in life. He has spoken out against the white policy makers who claim they are the champions of minorities for giving them hand outs, instead of giving them the ability and opportunity to rise out of poverty. He laments that welfare programs have kept the poor in a cycle of dependency instead of the opportunity to pull themselves out of poverty.

 

[deleted407021]

Ok, so he's an Uncle Tom for other reasons?


If not racist, and not intending to be so, how so in bad form? And how differently than say, ironic use?

Yes, in his creation of a sort of Dr. Carson as Folk Hero. Unconfirmed stories of juvenile delinquency and poor college performance, both at odds with earlier autobiographical accounts and accounts of friends and colleagues. This image of the poor black boy who found Jesus and straightened out. I think it's fairly clearly a fabrication for political advancement.

It's not racist if used in a non-racist way. The context would have rendered such a comment a gaffe of some size able degree, had it been public.

 

[ortnakas]

It's possible to have opinions outside of your profession. It's also possible to be really knowledgeable in one area and not in another. If you took the smartest neurosurgeon and smartest physicist in the country and asked them about each other's work, they wouldn't know much. So I'm willing to believe that Ben Carson can hold some weird beliefs but still be an excellent neurosurgeon.

I have a feeling there are a lot more Christian doctors who believe in Creationism than a lot of you might believe, and that doesn't make them bad physicians-- but I don't want to get into that argument so that's the last I'll say on the subject.

I'd almost forgotten about him

I'll echo another poster -- if there's anything he's good at politically speaking, it's self-promotion.

This. You might have been joking about forgetting about him, but collectively society has a pretty short memory about these things. I already can't list everyone who ran for the Republican nomination in 2012. I think his legacy is going to be "acclaimed neurosurgeon who tried to run for President that one time," not "weird guy who ran for president and was also a neurosurgeon."

 

[pitman]

Yes, in his creation of a sort of Dr. Carson as Folk Hero. Unconfirmed stories of juvenile delinquency and poor college performance, both at odds with earlier autobiographical accounts and accounts of friends and colleagues. This image of the poor black boy who found Jesus and straightened out. I think it's fairly clearly a fabrication for political advancement.

So confirming this...

It's blatantly obvious that he's using the racist tendencies of the demographic that he wants(ed) to vote for him (conservative white evangelicals) to his favor. The image of the "po little black boy what was made successful by the merciful white man" is appealing to a lot of people.

Now consider the possibility that your assumptions about his motives are wrong (he certainly hasn't been going around saying, 'yes, massah, you sure did good by me..'), and put yourself in the place of that black man.

I would think that assuming he cannot be holding his views without the implied Uncle Tomism opens you to the accusation of (admitting to) derogatory racial stereotyping.

It's not racist if used in a non-racist way. The context would have rendered such a comment a gaffe of some size able degree, had it been public.

You still haven't explained why it would be unacceptable, or a gaffe. So what if public? If not racist, and no intent was there, why is it unacceptable to say something just because some subset of people might get offended? Because some may mistakenly say that one is being racist? Because one didn't censor oneself in order to avoid giving others the chance to call one's remarks racist? One would be violating some 'safe space' by not first giving a 'trigger warning'? What's the offence?

 

[deleted407021]

So confirming this...

Now consider the possibility that your assumptions about his motives are wrong (he certainly hasn't been going around saying, 'yes, massah, you sure did good by me..'), and put yourself in the place of that black man.

Assuming he cannot be holding his views without the implied Uncle Tomism, I would think opens you to the accusation of (admitting to) derogatory racial stereotyping.


You still haven't explained why it would be unacceptable, or a gaffe. So what if public? If not racist, and no intent was there, why is it unacceptable to say something just because some subset of people might get offended? Because some may mistakenly say that one is being racist? Because one didn't censor oneself in order to avoid giving others the chance to call one's remarks racist?

It's not racist to surmise he used his race and a fabricated narrative to garner support, especially considering the groups he was courting. If he is indeed genuine (which he isn't -- Google many examples of him being caught in blatant lies), then my conclusions would be wrong, but not necessarily racist.

I'm agreeing with those who think that using the term "monkey" in the same sentence as a reference to a black man places one at risk of being labelled racist or insensitive. I don't think either of those things, necessarily. I'm acknowledging a possible perception of the motivation behind the use of that particular turn of phrase.

 

[mistafab]

Everyone who worked under Ben knew him as a kind and exceedingly humble person. He was an incredibly skilled neurosurgeon, who was not only technically skilled, but equipped to understand and display humanity in the face of horrible suffering and intense fear from those who needed his exquisitely honed set of special skills.

No one can take away the legacy of Ben Carson as a neurosurgeon, not even Ben Carson.

His colleagues saw him as a little cooky, but they trusted him with difficult cases, difficult circumstances, and knew he would always perform. Who cares if he made a fool of himself playing the politician in the eyes of many people? This doesn't detract from his legacy in the field and the lives he has touched through his craft.

We are in no place to judge ben carson as a neurosurgeon.
he is considered to be a legend for a reason
most of you will never come anywhere close to being the equivalent of a ben carson in whatever you do.

 

[Wordead]

Everyone who worked under Ben knew him as a kind and exceedingly humble person. He was an incredibly skilled neurosurgeon, who was not only technically skilled, but equipped to understand and display humanity in the face of horrible suffering and intense fear from those who needed his exquisitely honed set of special skills.

No one can take away the legacy of Ben Carson as a neurosurgeon, not even Ben Carson.

His colleagues saw him as a little cooky, but they trusted him with difficult cases, difficult circumstances, and knew he would always perform. Who cares if he made a fool of himself playing the politician in the eyes of many people? This doesn't detract from his legacy in the field and the lives he has touched through his craft.

Did you work under ol ben? You seem to imply a rather intimate relationship with him.

 

[charmiedermie]

That's a lot of big boy talk for being a fly on the wall

Is he in high school with the hSDN thing?

 

[PhillyMed777]

Is he in high school with the hSDN thing?

no, medical student i believe

 

[charmiedermie]

no, medical student i believe

Thanks! Kind of hard to tell with him calling Dr. Carson a monkey.

 

[WilliamofOckham]

Like has been mentioned before -- Carson is good at self-promotion. It's blatantly obvious that he's using the racist tendencies of the demographic that he wants(ed) to vote for him (conservative white evangelicals) to his favor. The image of the "po little black boy what was made successful by the merciful white man" is appealing to a lot of people. It's shameful that he encourages these ideas while also giving up a lot of credit for his own successes.

Interesting. I'm sure you'd find some way to castigate "conservative white evangelicals" as racists whether they voted for or against Carson.

 

[WilliamofOckham]

I think the absolute craziest thing about him is saying Harriet Tubman shouldn't kick A. Jackson off the $20. I mean, the dude is BLACK. And, he's not even in the race anymore. How could you not support a figure like Tubman over someone who basically was a genocider??

The Treasury is perfectly capable of producing some 20s with Jackson, and others with Tubman.

It's intended to be a face-rubbing move.

 

[Merely]

Thanks! Kind of hard to tell with him calling Dr. Carson a monkey.

2/10, with all that spare time you should be better at this derm

 

[deleted407021]

Interesting. I'm sure you'd find some way to castigate "conservative white evangelicals" as racists whether they voted for or against Carson.

Don't be so sure.

 

[pd1112]

Not that I doubt he's an excellent surgeon, but the qualification of African American would have helped, not hindered.

In 2016 anywhere in the US? Sure. In 1984 at Hopkins? Probably not.

 

[pitman]

In 2016 anywhere in the US? Sure. In 1984 at Hopkins? Probably not.

*Even* in 1984, which I remember quite well. University affirmative action wasn't invented by the millenials. lol.

 

[pitman]

It's not racist to surmise he used his race and a fabricated narrative to garner support, especially considering the groups he was courting. If he is indeed genuine (which he isn't -- Google many examples of him being caught in blatant lies), then my conclusions would be wrong, but not necessarily racist.

Dude, you need to reflect some. Maybe get to know some conservative blacks.

 

[deleted390966]

Our tax dollars are already going to all of these things. We spend too much as it is. In reality we should be spending less on everything given our enormous debt. Throwing more money at it is like giving the cookie monster more cookies. He's just gonna keep eating them. That's a terrible solution. What we need to do is cut the waste.

We spend over 50% of our budget on the military. Cut half of that and we'll get free education for everyone.
Source: https://www.nationalpriorities.org/budget-basics/federal-budget-101/spending/

 

[NontradCA]

Dude, you need to reflect some. Maybe get to know some conservative blacks.

Like this?

 

[pitman]

Yeah, that's representative of black conservatives. Yep. Just like how progressive blacks go around preaching, "Death to Israel!"

Implying that Carson -- any black man -- is an Uncle Tom is offensive racialization. It's obviously closer to racism than using the benign old saying that even a monkey can be trained to do x, in a discussion about the lack of apparent common sense in someone who happens to be black (while reflexive responses calling for the author to check himself, er, his privilege, is itself unhelpful racialization).

 

[deleted407021]

Dude, you need to reflect some. Maybe get to know some conservative blacks.

But yeah, it's not that I've thought about my position and arrived at a conclusion. It's that I don't know and understand any black conservatives 🙄
Your presumption is untrue. It has nothing to do with him being a conservative. He's fabricated a narrative for political purposes and self-promotion that made use of his race and the racial feelings of the demographic he courted.

 

[pd1112]

It's not racist to surmise he used his race and a fabricated narrative to garner support, especially considering the groups he was courting. If he is indeed genuine (which he isn't -- Google many examples of him being caught in blatant lies), then my conclusions would be wrong, but not necessarily racist.

Which blatant lies? If you're talking about media smear campaign regarding his past, pretty sure he proved every one of them wrong and multiple "reports" were retracted or had to be re-edited.

*Even* in 1984, which I remember quite well. University affirmative action wasn't invented by the millenials. lol.

Uh ok. I still doubt JH admins cared whatsoever about affirmative action in leadership positions in 1984.


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[chipwhitley]

We spend over 50% of our budget on the military. Cut half of that and we'll get free education for everyone.
Source: https://www.nationalpriorities.org/budget-basics/federal-budget-101/spending/

Our military spending is for more than just invading other countries. A strong military = a powerful country, which is also good for us economically and politically. Not to mention that military spending also goes to developing a lot of great technology and employs a lot of our people. Giving everyone free education would probably do a lot less to get people jobs than military spending, assuming that people would continue to go for useless degrees instead of hard science, engineering, medicine and the like.

 

[pitman]

But yeah, it's not that I've thought about my position and arrived at a conclusion. It's that I don't know and understand any black conservatives 🙄
Your presumption is untrue. It has nothing to do with him being a conservative. He's fabricated a narrative for political purposes and self-promotion that made use of his race and the racial feelings of the demographic he courted.

The issue is your own presumption -- that his behavior implies that he's an arse-licking Uncle Tom. Presuming a well-trodden derogatory racial stereotype is, well...

Getting to know some black conservatives would help you understand the many problems with (including the hypocrisy of) your presumption of racialization on the part of Carson, and how some of their similar views and behavior might actually reflect something OTHER than the Uncle Tomism that you think you see. For example, overcoming an underachieving childhood is itself a 'rags to riches'-like story (part of the "American dream", I would think) that is appealing to many, irrespective of any race-baiting. Considering a black man an Uncle Tom for having been able to do that, to rise up to overcome such early problems, or even for self-promoting having done that when running for President, is a perverted racialism.

 

[pitman]

Uh ok. I still doubt JH admins cared whatsoever about affirmative action in leadership positions in 1984.

You can doubt, but you'd be wrong. Coming from a family of academics and clinicians and old enough to have been aware of such things, I can assure you that universities were very actively recruiting figureheads based on aff. action then.

To be clear, I'm not questioning that Carson is a very capable neurosurgeon.

 

[Anicetus]

Guys relax, it's just another young liberal bashing someone who believes in religion.

Probably just bitter that their own savior, sanders, lost the nomination.

 

[pd1112]

But yeah, it's not that I've thought about my position and arrived at a conclusion. It's that I don't know and understand any black conservatives 🙄
Your presumption is untrue. It has nothing to do with him being a conservative. He's fabricated a narrative for political purposes and self-promotion that made use of his race and the racial feelings of the demographic he courted.

Fabricated a narrative? Which parts are made up?


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[deleted407021]

The issue is your own presumption -- that his behavior implies that he's an arse-licking Uncle Tom. Presuming a well-trodden derogatory racial stereotype is, well...

Getting to know some black conservatives would help you understand the many problems with (including the hypocrisy of) your presumption of racialization on the part of Carson, and how some of their similar views and behavior might actually reflect something OTHER than the Uncle Tomism that you think you see.

It's not a presumption -- it's a conclusion. Call it what you will, it's what I believe to be going on.

A presumption was made, however, and it was that I neither know nor understand the positions of any conservative African Americans. This is untrue. Some of them actively dislike Dr. Carson because they perceive that he's a black face and voice that is being used to spread a negative impression of black people. Now, I'm not expressing an opinion about that. I'm speaking to his fabricated narratives and what I interpret to be a cynical mindset and political motivation.

As to some of his lies, @pd1112. For a long time, he claimed to have had a one-on-one encounter with a general, where the officer was so enamored with Carson, that he offered him a "full scholarship" to West Point. Such a thing doesn't exist and such an encounter wouldn't have happened in that way. It was a lie. One he touted up until he was called on it and backpedaled.

He's also made claims of being violent, unruly and delinquent as a young man, at odds with apparent reality. CNN's investigation and PoliticusUSA's interpretation thereof.

 

[Merely]

Guys relax, it's just another young liberal bashing someone who believes in religion.

Probably just bitter that their own savior, sanders, lost the nomination.

To be clear, most college professors, scientists (real scientists not clinicians), philosophers, and leading intellectuals are not religious and liberal. So I'd certainly rather have them on my team than Bill O'Reilly and Ben Carson...lol

 

[Ho0v-man]

Yes, the tired old trope of liberals poking fun of conservatives for being dumb. Durrrrrr.

Meanwhile, 100% of the country's bums, welfare queens, and assorted total losers vote Democrat. Every. Single. Time. But hey, John Oliver says you guys are wicked smart, so after you finish patting yourselves on the back pat yourselves on the back one more time.

This statement essentially proves that the only thing you know about poor people is what you've seen on Fox News.

There are plenty of people on welfare and disability that vote republican every time because they think that they're gonna be able to make it rain once all that money finally trickles down.

 

[pd1112]

It's not a presumption -- it's a conclusion. Call it what you will, it's what I believe to be going on.

A presumption was made, however, and it was that I neither know nor understand the positions of any conservative African Americans. This is untrue. Some of them actively dislike Dr. Carson because they perceive that he's a black face and voice that is being used to spread a negative impression of black people. Now, I'm not expressing an opinion about that. I'm speaking to his fabricated narratives and what I interpret to be a cynical mindset and political motivation.

As to some of his lies, @pd1112. For a long time, he claimed to have had a one-on-one encounter with a general, where the officer was so enamored with Carson, that he offered him a "full scholarship" to West Point. Such a thing doesn't exist and such an encounter wouldn't have happened in that way. It was a lie. One he touted up until he was called on it and backpedaled.

He's also made claims of being violent, unruly and delinquent as a young man, at odds with apparent reality. CNN's investigation and PoliticusUSA's interpretation thereof.

lol it's called the liberal media for a reason man.

http://dailycaller.com/2015/11/06/team-carson-politico-story-is-an-outright-lie/

http://www.dailywire.com/news/960/no-ben-carson-didnt-lie-about-west-point-its-ben-shapiro

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/426799/ben-carson-media-attacks-honesty


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[deleted407021]

lol it's called the liberal media for a reason man.

http://dailycaller.com/2015/11/06/team-carson-politico-story-is-an-outright-lie/

http://www.dailywire.com/news/960/no-ben-carson-didnt-lie-about-west-point-its-ben-shapiro

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/426799/ben-carson-media-attacks-honesty


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

I'll look over these, later. Since you brought up the "liberal media", it's worth noting that these outlets you linked are part of the "conservative media", one and all.

 

[FindMeOnTheLinks]

We spend over 50% of our budget on the military. Cut half of that and we'll get free education for everyone.
Source: https://www.nationalpriorities.org/budget-basics/federal-budget-101/spending/

Half of discretionary spending. Which is less than 1/3 of the overall budget. So in reality military spending is probably around 1/6 of total expenditure.

I hate how there is this pervasive idea out there that the reason the US spends so much on military is just because we're 'Merica and we wanna show you who's got the biggest d**k. As if the people who run this country are so idiotic that they don't realize that we can just cut the military in HALF and go spend it on other stuff, and everything will be fine. The only reason the world economy is stable is because of United States military presence. Yeah, we could stand to be more efficient with our military spending and use the savings elsewhere. But to claim that we should cut it by half is asinine.

 

[pitman]

It's not a presumption -- it's a conclusion. Call it what you will, it's what I believe to be going on.

A presumption was made, however, and it was that I neither know nor understand the positions of any conservative African Americans. This is untrue. Some of them actively dislike Dr. Carson because they perceive that he's a black face and voice that is being used to spread a negative impression of black people. Now, I'm not expressing an opinion about that. I'm speaking to his fabricated narratives and what I interpret to be a cynical mindset and political motivation.

It is a presumption that what he says makes him an Uncle Tom. There is no admission from him that he's an Uncle Tom, no reason to believe that he's soliciting the image of "po little black boy what was made successful by the merciful white man" when reasonable alternatives exist (consider if he were white and made the same comments) -- that's YOUR quote, your inference, your...presumption, your myopic view of the intent of a black man who talks about his overcoming his own shortcomings to become successful. It is you and not he who is racializing and thus projecting.

As to how many blacks you know, my point is that you don't really know conservative blacks (well enough) to discover that very few indeed would support your presumption that he is an Uncle Tom. As you even said, you are saying something far different than the issues you claim your black associates have with him. They are not pulling the Uncle Tom ****, because they intuitively know how ridiculous of an accusation that is, and how blacks have been accused of that historically whenever taking charge and advancing themselves in society (as if advancing or talking about how they have advanced means that they just wanna be accepted by whitey, grateful for massah's mercy, and patted on the head for being a good ol' negro...no white would be accused of that, so why is it your instinct to project that onto a black man?)

By either ignoring the crux of this point or just not getting it, you're proving my point.

 

[akwho]

Lol at a bunch of non-black people arguing about how black people should feel about a black conservative. Classic SDN.

 

[deleted407021]

It is a presumption that what he says makes him an Uncle Tom. There is no admission from him that he's an Uncle Tom, no reason to believe that he's soliciting the image of "po little black boy what was made successful by the merciful white man" when reasonable alternatives exist (consider if he were white and made the same comments) -- that's YOUR quote, your inference, your...presumption, your myopic view of the intent of a black man who talks about his overcoming his own shortcomings to become successful. It is you and not he who is racializing and thus projecting.

As to how many blacks you know, my point is that you don't really know conservative blacks (well enough) to discover that very few indeed would support your presumption that he is an Uncle Tom. As you even said, you are saying something far different than the issues you claim your black associates have with him. They are not pulling the Uncle Tom ****, because they intuitively know how ridiculous of an accusation that is, and how blacks have been accused of that historically whenever taking charge and advancing themselves in society (as if advancing or talking about how they have advanced means that they just wanna be accepted by whitey, grateful for massah's mercy, and patted on the head for being a good ol' negro...no white would be accused of that, so why is it your instinct to project that onto a black man?)

By either ignoring the crux of this point or just not getting it, you're proving my point.

You are ignoring the core of my argument. That is, the fiction he has created of himself that is inconsistent with all other reasonable accounts. Yes, he is a success story and yes, that resonates with everyone. But this narrative of the man who was a delinquent (who wasn't -- he was a med school gunner) who found Jesus and gained success resonates particularly well with the evangelical demographic he is (was) attempting to woo. Why don't you ask some conservative white evangelicals if they like Carson? I have (I live with two) and I'm met with the implication and sometimes open admission that it's because he "acts like he's white". They like that he holds opinions about African Americans that are similar to their own. They're enamored with this black guy who they perceive to act and sound like themselves and, I think, they feel in some way that they can take some credit for his successes. It's this dynamic that I find to be fundamentally racist.

It's your word against mine that your true Scotsmen black conservatives actually hold to those opinions. But again, whether or not he is an "Uncle Tom" is not the argument I'm making, though it's perhaps a component of what's going on.

 

[pitman]

Your quote directly implies you think he's an Uncle Tom. It's quintessential.

You don't give any reason to think that he does what he does for the reasons you project that he has. Evangelical Christians liking him for holding similar views says nothing about his intentions. It's kinda telling that in defending your "po little black boy what was made successful by the merciful white man" characterization, you bring up white Christians' views that he shares, as though only an Uncle Tom would share their views (about blacks or anything else in particular).

Yes, the black conservatives I know would never call him an Uncle Tom (explicitly or quintessentially), in part because some of them have been called that themselves (even by other [non-conservative] blacks -- Spike Lee famously publicized this sort of black-on-black racism in School Daze). I have no idea why you think it clever to refer to Scotsmen here -- I haven't heard any Scotsmen defend Carson from accusations of being an Uncle Tom.

As to akwho's comment: I don't see anyone claiming what blacks *should* feel, we are discussing what is and is not.