Hated third year

[MrSunny1]

Is it normal to feel like I would rather die than repeat 3rd year if I had to choose? Literally, if sentenced to another 3rd year and no option to quit I'm pretty sure I would vote for the poison pill. Makes me wonder just how well intern year might go.... seriously not depressed but I absolutely hated every second of life for a whole year. From constantly being shat upon by everyone inbetweeen janitors to attendings, no sleep, impossible exams, step2, gunners, awful residents, required community service, waking up at 3 am, drinking gallons of coffee, near constant IBS, this list is endless just reflecting is giving me some serious nausea... anyone else feel that way?

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[niblet]

There's a special suck that comes with being a med student on clinical rotations that, going through it now, makes me envious of the position of just about everyone else on earth. The last year has been the worst year of life. I'm not depressed, but my day-to-day is colored with a constant shade of miserableness. Purposelessness. Waking at the crack of dawn just to go faux-take care of patients whose outcome I have zero influence on, all done while getting in the way of superiors who would probably prefer you weren't there at all, and paying out the *** for the privilege.

I can't say I regret going to med school. I still think this is what I want to do, and all the crap I hate about third year has little to do with the actual medicine, which makes me optimistic about the future. But man does this year blow.

 

[MrSunny1]

Sometimes I wondered if prison would actually be worse.. Anyone been in both M3 and prison for direct comparison?

 

[FistLength]

There were crappy times in 3rd year ( OB I'm talking to you), but overall its been a great experience. Pretty cool seeing all the specialties, getting the opportunity to mess up in a controlled/safe environment.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

Is it normal to feel like I would rather die than repeat 3rd year if I had to choose? Literally, if sentenced to another 3rd year and no option to quit I'm pretty sure I would vote for the poison pill. Makes me wonder just how well intern year might go.... seriously not depressed but I absolutely hated every second of life for a whole year. From constantly being shat upon by everyone inbetweeen janitors to attendings, no sleep, impossible exams, step2, gunners, awful residents, required community service, waking up at 3 am, drinking gallons of coffee, near constant IBS, this list is endless just reflecting is giving me some serious nausea... anyone else feel that way?

Consider pathology. No intern year.

 

[750335]

Is it normal to feel like I would rather die than repeat 3rd year if I had to choose? Literally, if sentenced to another 3rd year and no option to quit I'm pretty sure I would vote for the poison pill. Makes me wonder just how well intern year might go.... seriously not depressed but I absolutely hated every second of life for a whole year. From constantly being shat upon by everyone inbetweeen janitors to attendings, no sleep, impossible exams, step2, gunners, awful residents, required community service, waking up at 3 am, drinking gallons of coffee, near constant IBS, this list is endless just reflecting is giving me some serious nausea... anyone else feel that way?

I honestly feel like this will be me in a few years.

 

[Ismet]

Disliked most of med school. Love residency. Combination of working in the field that makes me happy and being surrounded by co-residents and faculty who are awesome.

 

[Domperidone]

It takes ages to start to feel comfortable with clinical rotations and all the random stuff you didn't know came with it.

i wasn't a fan of 3rd year, but 4th year was better. (I'd learned how to 'play the game' so to speak too). 3rd year's a huge adjustment and transition. Everyone has different reactions to it, and it can also depend on what rotations you started on. what your interests are. Arguably at least first and second year are familiar territory because you're used to classroom or tutorial based learning.
Also 3rd year, it has to be said, could be confusing or bewildering. you rotate through all these different fields (which is necessary for your learning), but honestly, not all of them are going to be enjoyable for you or suited to your personality. (if you love all of them, then family med is probably for you).

Eventually you'll find a rotation or rotations you'll enjoy or aren't as bad.
Occasionally, i'd been on rotations that made me feel like I'd been found. Like a home coming. everything lined up. I had interesting cases/patients. I had great residents/supervisors looking after me. I felt like a genuine part of the team. No douche-bag gunners around.

There is a vulnerability to being the 'low man on the totem pole'. it does leave you at the mercy of forces greater than you. At least you are meant to be more protected as a student, than say, as an intern. You have to find a way to survive and adapt. Find ways to be useful and valuable to teams, without feeling you're in the way. Understand your place. Be invisible when appropriate (when the team is super busy, don't start asking questions that you could probably google), stand out when the time is right. Those lessons you learn as a student about medical culture are incredibly important for navigating through residency later on. The day-to-day politics don't end in medical school, although they change in form. It's much harder to hide as a resident.

Agree with the post above.
residency is better (but also scarier). more patient responsibility (that in itself, made my days as intern go by so fast sometimes as the adrenaline hits). more often than not, i'm surrounded by people riding the same wave length. On great rotations, it feels like Scrubs. As in we try to make each other laugh and forget about the daily grind when we can. Showing up for work is not just showing up for work anymore, it's going to hang out with my friends while at work. People complain about how this line of work can leave limited time for a social life, but I mean, most of my social life is my co-residents who get what I'm going through. I have friends outside of medicine, but I need my friends who are in medicine. (I didn't necessarily feel this way as a student)

Sometimes I wondered if prison would actually be worse.. Anyone been in both M3 and prison for direct comparison?

LOL. I've had patients ask me that. what's worse, prison or hospital ward?
I've probably said that to patients insisting on getting out sooner. 'well, we're not a prison, we can't force you to stay here. but if you leave it's against medical advice".

 

[YellowTurtle]

Is it normal to feel like I would rather die than repeat 3rd year if I had to choose? Literally, if sentenced to another 3rd year and no option to quit I'm pretty sure I would vote for the poison pill. Makes me wonder just how well intern year might go.... seriously not depressed but I absolutely hated every second of life for a whole year. From constantly being shat upon by everyone inbetweeen janitors to attendings, no sleep, impossible exams, step2, gunners, awful residents, required community service, waking up at 3 am, drinking gallons of coffee, near constant IBS, this list is endless just reflecting is giving me some serious nausea... anyone else feel that way?

Feel the same regarding third year. Tired of always being assumed to be a nincompoop.

My suture scissors wouldn't cut once in the OR and after trying different angles the resident snatched them out of my hand and went into this long diatribe about how to hold ****ing scissors (like I went to kindergarten, I know how to use scissors) and then proceeded to demonstrate his superior skills ... and yet the suture didn't cut for him either, no matter what, until he just held the suture as taut as possible and forced them to cut. I stood there thinking "uh huh, yeah show me how to do it right" with a little chuckle. He just threw them down at the scrub nurse and said they needed sharpening. Like yeah dude ... you could've listened to me in the first place.

 

[grapefruit17]

Hated third year (fourth year about to graduate now). Im a very relaxed, noncompetitive person. I feel like with all the pimping it was a crap show of who can look the best for the attending.

 

[Moose A Moose]

I appreciate people that speak openly and honestly about their negative sentiments toward third year. I want to toss students across the parking lot that act like you've committed treason by saying you're not interested in some subject of medicine or the lifestyle of being a peon.

 

[Mr. Mojo Risin]

Feel the same regarding third year. Tired of always being assumed to be a nincompoop.

My suture scissors wouldn't cut once in the OR and after trying different angles the resident snatched them out of my hand and went into this long diatribe about how to hold ****ing scissors (like I went to kindergarten, I know how to use scissors) and then proceeded to demonstrate his superior skills ... and yet the suture didn't cut for him either, no matter what, until he just held the suture as taut as possible and forced them to cut. I stood there thinking "uh huh, yeah show me how to do it right" with a little chuckle. He just threw them down at the scrub nurse and said they needed sharpening. Like yeah dude ... you could've listened to me in the first place.

This makes me glad I didn't have residents on my surgery rotations. The surgeon I worked with left the OR after closing the deep layers and so I got to close in peace with nobody but techs, nurses, and CRNAs in the room. There was one surgical tech that would give me crap sometimes for not knowing the instruments or how to operate the da Vinci arms but that's about it. They were an idiot anyway so I didn't think much of anything they said.


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[CypherA]

This makes me glad I didn't have residents on my surgery rotations. The surgeon I worked with left the OR after closing the deep layers and so I got to close in peace with nobody but techs, nurses, and CRNAs in the room. There was one surgical tech that would give me crap sometimes for not knowing the instruments or how to operate the da Vinci arms but that's about it. They were an idiot anyway so I didn't think much of anything they said.


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What? How is that even legal/safe/appropriate?

 

[Mr. Mojo Risin]

Sorry, I realize I made it sound like I was left to suture surgical incisions unsupervised. Not a chance in hell! I'm talking dermabond +/- steri-strip level of complexity.


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[tiedyeddog]

I also hated third year, and most of medical school actually. Residency has been better although it has a different kind of suck associated with it.

 

[wegh]

I think third year can go two different extreme ways depending on where you go to school. But I think most medical students who dread medical school could have really benefited from working crap jobs prior to medical school. I could go on about the stupid jobs I had and I am certainly not unique, but medical school is light years better than some of the jobs people suffer through to take care of themselves and their family. We have it pretty damn good

 

[wegh]

Sometimes I wondered if prison would actually be worse.. Anyone been in both M3 and prison for direct comparison?

I know you're joking, but this shouldn't even be a consideration. You don't have the threat of rape and murder breathing down your neck everyday in third year LOL

 

[augeremt]

I think third year can go two different extreme ways depending on where you go to school. But I think most medical students who dread medical school could have really benefited from working crap jobs prior to medical school. I could go on about the stupid jobs I had and I am certainly not unique, but medical school is light years better than some of the jobs people suffer through to take care of themselves and their family. We have it pretty damn good

I worked many crap jobs before med school and also a few good jobs. Third year still sucks.

 

[Staphylococcus Aureus]

Near constant IBS and everyone knowing how often/long you leave for the bathroom.

 

[wegh]

I worked many crap jobs before med school and also a few good jobs. Third year still sucks.

What crap jobs did you work and for how many hours a week that were better than third year?

 

[augeremt]

What crap jobs did you work and for how many hours a week that were better than third year?

Everything from food service to construction to garbage truck to farmhand to deckhand to Excel spreadsheet monkey work in no particular order, some upwards of 100 hours/week. One job even came out to <$1 per hour.

I hated those jobs for a variety of reasons, and often wished I could quit but couldn't because I needed the money/had no better option. They were more physically exhausting and mind-numbingly boring than anything I've done in medical school. But I've never been more stressed, miserable, anxious, and insecure than during this past year. And I'm generally a rainbows and unicorns kind of person.

The stakes for my future during third year are higher. You have one bad day and that's the only impression that team has of you, so there goes your eval and thus your grade. Everyone thinks you're incompetent all the time and you're everyone's punching bag. You can't stand up for yourself like you would normally because of hierarchy.

Everyone defines suckage differently. For me, third year hasn't sucked because of the hours, or working environment, or lack of income. I've worked crappy hours in crappy conditions with little compensation. It's sucked because it's taken such a huge toll on my mental health for pretty much every reason people have mentioned in this thread. I cannot wait for it to be over.

 

[wegh]

Everything from food service to construction to garbage truck to farmhand to deckhand to Excel spreadsheet monkey work in no particular order, some upwards of 100 hours/week. One job even came out to <$1 per hour.

I hated those jobs for a variety of reasons, and often wished I could quit but couldn't because I needed the money/had no better option. They were more physically exhausting and mind-numbingly boring than anything I've done in medical school. But I've never been more stressed, miserable, anxious, and insecure than during this past year. And I'm generally a rainbows and unicorns kind of person.

The stakes for my future during third year are higher. You have one bad day and that's the only impression that team has of you, so there goes your eval and thus your grade. Everyone thinks you're incompetent all the time and you're everyone's punching bag. You can't stand up for yourself like you would normally because of hierarchy.

Everyone defines suckage differently. For me, third year hasn't sucked because of the hours, or working environment, or lack of income. I've worked crappy hours in crappy conditions with little compensation. It's sucked because it's taken such a huge toll on my mental health for pretty much every reason people have mentioned in this thread. I cannot wait for it to be over.

Sounds like you need to speak to someone because these sound like issues with worrying, anxiety. Certainly talking to a psychologist can't hurt. It is not healthy to be worrying about one performance on one day. Take it from someone who has been diagnosed with GAD.

I have worked some of those jobs you mentioned and I don't miss them at all. Maybe I have a little more introspection or insight going on because it is very clear to me that being a medical student >>>> many other positions in life. If you hate that people think you're incompetent as a medical student, just remember that no one really thought of you at all in some of those jobs. At least patients (on average) respect you. Most people don't waste a second of thought on the person working at the deli counter, or construction worker. Not that your confidence and self-respect should come from how many people think you're important but just food for thought.

In the end, you will be a doctor. If you are overly concerned about "omg, my future" that is not healthy either. Most people aren't able to become doctors, even if they tried. It takes intelligence, hard-work, and persistence. You may not be a neurosurgeon at Mayo, but you will be doing something really great for your community, much more than you ever could making sandwiches or picking up the trash. Not that those jobs aren't important (and I'm certainly not above them) but they offer very little in the way of lifelong gratitude for people. They are simply ways to make ends meet.

Although I will say that garbage truck work is actually a little known secret. Hours are good, pay is just fine (if you live in a major area), and benefits!

 

[YellowTurtle]

Sounds like you need to speak to someone because these sound like issues with worrying, anxiety. Certainly talking to a psychologist can't hurt. It is not healthy to be worrying about one performance on one day. Take it from someone who has been diagnosed with GAD.

augeremt wasn't talking about excess worry/anxiety. He/she was describing a very real situation where you have one bad day and it goes into your eval which can 100% affect your grade and/or screw you over when applying to residency because PD's see your evals. That's not excessive worry. It's just third-year-suck. Also literally everyone thinks you're stupid and you can never prove you aren't until you're switched to a different part of the hospital.

Maybe I have a little more introspection or insight going on because it is very clear to me that being a medical student >>>> many other positions in life. If you hate that people think you're incompetent as a medical student, just remember that no one really thought of you at all in some of those jobs. At least patients (on average) respect you. Most people don't waste a second of thought on the person working at the deli counter, or construction worker. Not that your confidence and self-respect should come from how many people think you're important but just food for thought.

In the end, you will be a doctor. If you are overly concerned about "omg, my future" that is not healthy either. Most people aren't able to become doctors, even if they tried. It takes intelligence, hard-work, and persistence. You may not be a neurosurgeon at Mayo, but you will be doing something really great for your community, much more than you ever could making sandwiches or picking up the trash. Not that those jobs aren't important (and I'm certainly not above them) but they offer very little in the way of lifelong gratitude for people. They are simply ways to make ends meet.

Gag me. People like this are what make third year even worse. The mentality of "just be more grateful" grates like nails on a chalkboard to me. Also this pep-talk "unicorn and rainbows and inspirational stories" gets so old so fast. For some people, surprisingly not all, third year just sucks. That's it.

 

[wegh]

augeremt wasn't talking about excess worry/anxiety. He/she was describing a very real situation where you have one bad day and it goes into your eval which can 100% affect your grade and/or screw you over when applying to residency because PD's see your evals. That's not excessive worry. It's just third-year-suck. Also literally everyone thinks you're stupid and you can never prove you aren't until you're switched to a different part of the hospital.

Gag me. People like this are what make third year even worse. The mentality of "just be more grateful" grates like nails on a chalkboard to me. Also this pep-talk "unicorn and rainbows and inspirational stories" gets so old so fast. For some people, surprisingly not all, third year just sucks. That's it.

Just being nice dude. I could tell you to stop being a baby but that's even less helpful. But I suppose I could just nod and roll my eyes like I assume everyone else does when you talk like this in person.

But I really have to disagree with "this is normal" attitude. That is not normal and guess what, that is totally fine. It is not healthy to be constantly anxious, especially about things you have no control over. Even worse, is to have a "eh screw it, my life is pain" mentality. Your mentality of pushing things like anxiety and depression under the rug is a problem. You should not be telling people that they don't need to talk to someone even if they feel anxious/depressed.

Stop being part of the problem, please

 

[wegh]

Feel the same regarding third year. Tired of always being assumed to be a nincompoop.

My suture scissors wouldn't cut once in the OR and after trying different angles the resident snatched them out of my hand and went into this long diatribe about how to hold ****ing scissors (like I went to kindergarten, I know how to use scissors) and then proceeded to demonstrate his superior skills ... and yet the suture didn't cut for him either, no matter what, until he just held the suture as taut as possible and forced them to cut. I stood there thinking "uh huh, yeah show me how to do it right" with a little chuckle. He just threw them down at the scrub nurse and said they needed sharpening. Like yeah dude ... you could've listened to me in the first place.

This post just reeks of insecurity. You don't learn how to hold suture scissors in kindergarten. You also sound like you come off as a stubborn, entitled STUDENT. On top of that you let one jerk make you bitter for a long period of time. Forget rainbows, stop being a brat and suck it up.

 

[MrSunny1]

Everything from food service to construction to garbage truck to farmhand to deckhand to Excel spreadsheet monkey work in no particular order, some upwards of 100 hours/week. One job even came out to <$1 per hour.

I hated those jobs for a variety of reasons, and often wished I could quit but couldn't because I needed the money/had no better option. They were more physically exhausting and mind-numbingly boring than anything I've done in medical school. But I've never been more stressed, miserable, anxious, and insecure than during this past year. And I'm generally a rainbows and unicorns kind of person.

The stakes for my future during third year are higher. You have one bad day and that's the only impression that team has of you, so there goes your eval and thus your grade. Everyone thinks you're incompetent all the time and you're everyone's punching bag. You can't stand up for yourself like you would normally because of hierarchy.

Everyone defines suckage differently. For me, third year hasn't sucked because of the hours, or working environment, or lack of income. I've worked crappy hours in crappy conditions with little compensation. It's sucked because it's taken such a huge toll on my mental health for pretty much every reason people have mentioned in this thread. I cannot wait for it to be over.

I worked in just about all of those jobs as well and they are certainly MUCH better than third year MS.... The ONLY reason you may think 3rd year is better is because you think it is a stepping stone to something great.... But lets be honest would you rather be a third year over and over for the rest of your life or do any of the above jobs? I worked in insurance 12 hours per day 7 days a week and it was vastly superior to third year, treated with decent respect, good pay, friendly people to talk to, literally ZERO stress or anxiety, no subjective grading or daily berating...................
Knowing my luck I will finish residency and probably be unemployed, underemployed or struggling to start a private practice as the landscape changes dramatically in medicine.

 

[aDOdoctor]

This post just reeks of insecurity. You don't learn how to hold suture scissors in kindergarten. You also sound like you come off as a stubborn, entitled STUDENT. On top of that you let one jerk make you bitter for a long period of time. Forget rainbows, stop being a brat and suck it up.

I have to say something because your replies don't show much empathy towards those who feel they are legitimately being made to look ridiculous or useless in front of others during clerkship years. Why should YellowTurtle be judged for how his/her honest, real-life experience went with this surgical resident? He/she wasn't saying this caused him to be embittered and lash it out on other students for years to come. He/she was saying why he/she didn't like 3rd year, and gave one example as to why in a manner he/she was likely feeling at the time. It sounds like the resident was talking in a very condescending tone, as if they were in kindergarten. As a grown adult in professional doctorate school, YT has the right to some level of respect and understanding when something doesn't work quite right, and even more on a student level. No one likes to be put down when they don't accomplish a task correctly, especially when they're brand new to it, ESPECIALLY when it's not their fault at all and gave it their best anyway. Your response makes it seem like YellowTurtle should bend over and take it, say thank you, and ask for more. I am sure if you asked him/her, these negative experiences will allow him/her to treat medical students in a more positive manner because of how much he/she disliked her experiences. Instead, you called YT stubborn, entitled, and completely delegitimized anything this medical student was feeling. This isn't to say all stories on here aren't exaggerated or made up, but to come guns-blazing on someone's personality like that, from one post, was incredibly short-sighted and rude, and there's no place here for that. You're not being nice. You're being judgmental and immature.

I think third year can go two different extreme ways depending on where you go to school. But I think most medical students who dread medical school could have really benefited from working crap jobs prior to medical school. I could go on about the stupid jobs I had and I am certainly not unique, but medical school is light years better than some of the jobs people suffer through to take care of themselves and their family. We have it pretty damn good

Sounds like you need to speak to someone because these sound like issues with worrying, anxiety. Certainly talking to a psychologist can't hurt. It is not healthy to be worrying about one performance on one day. Take it from someone who has been diagnosed with GAD.

I have worked some of those jobs you mentioned and I don't miss them at all. Maybe I have a little more introspection or insight going on because it is very clear to me that being a medical student >>>> many other positions in life. If you hate that people think you're incompetent as a medical student, just remember that no one really thought of you at all in some of those jobs. At least patients (on average) respect you. Most people don't waste a second of thought on the person working at the deli counter, or construction worker. Not that your confidence and self-respect should come from how many people think you're important but just food for thought.

In the end, you will be a doctor. If you are overly concerned about "omg, my future" that is not healthy either. Most people aren't able to become doctors, even if they tried. It takes intelligence, hard-work, and persistence. You may not be a neurosurgeon at Mayo, but you will be doing something really great for your community, much more than you ever could making sandwiches or picking up the trash. Not that those jobs aren't important (and I'm certainly not above them) but they offer very little in the way of lifelong gratitude for people. They are simply ways to make ends meet.

Although I will say that garbage truck work is actually a little known secret. Hours are good, pay is just fine (if you live in a major area), and benefits!

First you say students would benefit working some crappy jobs. Then when a poster states they have indeed done so, you essentially call them ungrateful because the thought of being a doctor should wash away all of their fears and concerns, and that having any of these negative emotions is "unhealthy." Just because someone's experiences contradicts your worldview, doesn't mean that they're "wrong" and you're "right."

You say that, "Most people don't waste a second of thought on the person working at the deli counter, or construction worker." But then you go on to say, "Not that your confidence and self-respect should come from how many people think you're important but just food for thought." So deli and construction workers are unimportant because no one "wastes" a second of their thought on them, but that "confidence and self-respect" should not come from people thinking of them anyway, even though you said, "No one thought of you at all at some of those jobs." So should the feeling of importance come from people thinking of you or not? I would like you to imagine someone saying to you, "No one respects you at your job, no one will think of you after they see you, no one will consider your job having any lasting importance, no one has thought of you being competent at your job, and you will benefit your community very little." Does very little to build that "confidence and self-respect" you speak of, but that's what you're essentially saying to those silly deli and construction workers who made poor life choices in being in those professions.

I am sure the people you care for will feel very grateful for you as their doctor because your career will contribute so much more to society than theirs ever could. I can only say that I hope you realize that your "help" comes across as very unhelpful and actually makes people feel worse than they already did.

 

[tux4]

I was lucky to be in very few situations where I was purposefully put down or felt like an inferior POS. Third year was awesome for me and I learned a lot. I hated the first 2 years learning in a classroom...but it was also required attendance which sucked. I definitely will never try to neglect students or look down on them (unless they are a little s*** bag). I don't get this attitude toward people lower on the totem pole. I think it is important for all those people who had bad experiences not be bitter and continue that tradition.


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[Domperidone]

Every year was always better than the last for me. Not perfect. but always getting better in terms of satisfaction etc. certainly not always bad.

I could say the same about residency. The point's been debated in other threads too, but it's delayed gratification in this career, this pain will make sense to you later type of thing etc.. It's something, i've recently come to like about med. In that it's always getting better and it's always different. It's never the same, never boring and I feel like i'm always improving (I have so, so much to improve on everyday).

I definitely will never try to neglect students or look down on them (unless they are a little s*** bag). I don't get this attitude toward people lower on the totem pole. I think it is important for all those people who had bad experiences not be bitter and continue that tradition.

i did/do the same as a resident - in terms of trying to make sure students get away with a good experience as much as possible (when it's possible to). In turn, I've come to realize why some of the good residents I was with as a student were great. One also told me in past - 'here, i'm going to show what i wish had shown me as a student, before internship'. the good ones remember.

However, i felt like I went through a seismic shift in understanding things on going from being a student to resident.
Just like how the preclinical years are so different to the clinical years as a student, so is going from being a student to resident.
One thing that sunk in, is that when I'm really busy, or have an attending that has a higher level of expectation, none of us on the team really have time for students. It hurts having to neglect them, and some of them understand. (I'm impressed when a few come up with creative ways to help out and stick around for us to find time to teach them.) It's a weird feeling going from the neglectee..to actively neglecting people when I don't wanna.

(from Biwen-studentmd [not my blog])

when we get an attending that's pro-teaching (and it's great for all of us), i'm freer to teach and delegate more to students. there's a joy in having a student around, people who aren't jaded, are excited and wanting to do jobs. It's whether we have time to teach or mentor. We're trying to survive too, but patients and the team come first. As a student, teaching and learning occupies much of your focus and goals. As residents, that like factors into 10-30% of our thoughts, there's usually too much going on. as much as it sucked being a student in some ways, occasionally I do get nostalgic in the sense of, I had more free time comparatively. When I see students go home, part me of me goes..take me with youuuuu. Sometimes i'd like to be invisible (momentarily), usually when I'm getting reamed.

there always dicks around in this career too. I've had them as students and I've worked with them on occasion. It's an example of what not to be. some don't start off that way either. you have to wonder what happened to them for them to turn out that way. what made them so broken.

As for lower guy on the pole thing, well, most of the time it's not deliberate when it happens. It's not meant to be a tradition, not in most cases. As for why. It's like saying human nature is human nature. Or power corrupts absolutely, whatever idiom you wish to insert here. It's not fair, but where does it say life is?

It's funny to look back on all this.
I remember feeling the desperation to be taught or engaged as a student, and not always colliding into the right teams for this. then feeling demoralized by it as a result. on the flip side, I've been on teams as resident where we all want students around or we could use the help and badly. And they're either not around (we've run into exams or summer holidays) or they're **** bags lol. I hate the **** bags, it's like, we're trying to give you opportunities here and you're totally taking it for granted. Occasionally it does feel like the universe has to line up for 'good teams' to run into 'good students' and vice versa.

Also, I totally feel this:

Residency has been better although it has a different kind of suck associated with it.

 

[mimelim]

Feel the same regarding third year. Tired of always being assumed to be a nincompoop.

My suture scissors wouldn't cut once in the OR and after trying different angles the resident snatched them out of my hand and went into this long diatribe about how to hold ****ing scissors (like I went to kindergarten, I know how to use scissors) and then proceeded to demonstrate his superior skills ... and yet the suture didn't cut for him either, no matter what, until he just held the suture as taut as possible and forced them to cut. I stood there thinking "uh huh, yeah show me how to do it right" with a little chuckle. He just threw them down at the scrub nurse and said they needed sharpening. Like yeah dude ... you could've listened to me in the first place.

On the other hand, I have had multiple MS3s cut my knots. I've had multiple MS3s very nearly cut the artery that I had finished closing or the nerve behind the suture. And one student who will hold a special place in my heart... Cut a hole in the fistula I had finished repairing as well as the knot requiring me to not only to redo the anastamosis, but harvest vein for a patch. Now, I give my students a lot of autonomy and try to involve them in as much as the case as I can and maybe they shouldn't be holding the scissors anywhere near someone's carotid. And yes, maybe you know how to use scissors. But, you have to be very careful about attribution error.

What? How is that even legal/safe/appropriate?

Sorry, I realize I made it sound like I was left to suture surgical incisions unsupervised. Not a chance in hell! I'm talking dermabond +/- steri-strip level of complexity.


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I did skin closures as a medical student without supervision. I have left my students alone in the OR to finish closing the skin. Certainly not the first time they are with me. Certainly not if they wave around scissors like a crazy person. But, I think that there is tremendous educational value in being given some extra rope to work with as a student. Now, I will always check on them after 10-15 minutes and unknown to the students, they are always with a scrub tech/nurse that I trust to watch them. But, it is legal, safe and appropriate to do so. Worst case, they **** it up and after putting in my post-op orders, I can re-scrub to fix it. In 5 years of residency I've had to do that maybe once. More often than not, they are simply going really really slow and need encouragement to pick up the pace because it looks fine.

Putting dermabond on is what a scrub tech does. I'm breaking scrub as they are cleaning the wound, before it is applied. If the student wants to do it, they have at it. But, my suspicion is that if you are rotating where there aren't residents and are somewhere that is private/semi-private, the attending was walking out the door at that point whether you were there or not.

 

[Goro]

After reading through this thread, I'm wondering if I should link it to the thread in Allo where people are bitterly complaining about about having to learn perceived minutiae in MS1/2.

 

[cellsaver]

After reading through this thread, I'm wondering if I should link it to the thread in Allo where people are bitterly complaining about about having to learn perceived minutiae in MS1/2.

Please do

The bitter complaning about x, y and z tells me this: they will make us, their competition, look good. If they whine about histology, use FA as their core text, run to SDN for every simple question that can be found in the slimmest of all Physiology textbooks (Costanzo as compared to Berne and Levy) or say, as one classmate told me, Robbins and Cotran was "too difficult to understand", all I can think is that theyre slackards. My faculty mentor told me a few weeks ago: "most people today are slackards" (in and out of medicine). That put it in perspective for me

The minutiae is where its at

 

[Goro]

Robbins too difficult? Jeeze...

Please do

The bitter complaning about x, y and z tells me this: they will make us, their competition, look good. If they whine about histology, use FA as their core text, run to SDN for every simple question that can be found in the slimmest of all Physiology textbooks (Costanzo as compared to Berne and Levy) or say, as one classmate told me, Robbins and Cotran was "too difficult to understand", all I can think is that theyre slackards. My faculty mentor told me a few weeks ago: "most people today are slackards" (in and out of medicine). That put it in perspective for me

The minutiae is where its at

 

[SunsFun]

Please do

The bitter complaning about x, y and z tells me this: they will make us, their competition, look good. If they whine about histology, use FA as their core text, run to SDN for every simple question that can be found in the slimmest of all Physiology textbooks (Costanzo as compared to Berne and Levy) or say, as one classmate told me, Robbins and Cotran was "too difficult to understand", all I can think is that theyre slackards. My faculty mentor told me a few weeks ago: "most people today are slackards" (in and out of medicine). That put it in perspective for me

The minutiae is where its at

Just don't get mad when those "slackards" who keep complaining about everything fill your AOA list and kill the boards...just sayin


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[cellsaver]

Just don't get mad when those "slackards" who keep complaining about everything fill your AOA list and kill the boards...just sayin

I have visions of an MBA, CPA, or other master's level graduate degree hospital admin chewing out these newly minted physicians in meetings, elevators or hallways. Theyre going to have a terrible time in the current medical business landscape...should be fun to watch. Not even Tao Le will be able to save their arses

 

[SunsFun]

I have visions of an MBA, CPA, or other master's level graduate degree hospital admin chewing out these newly minted physicians in meetings, elevators or hallways. Theyre going to have a terrible time in the current medical business landscape...should be fun to watch. Not even Tao Le will be able to save their arses

If you see master level graduates chewing out physicians in elevators you may want to start recommending that they take the stairs instead.


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[Anicetus]

Is it normal to feel like I would rather die than repeat 3rd year if I had to choose? Literally, if sentenced to another 3rd year and no option to quit I'm pretty sure I would vote for the poison pill. Makes me wonder just how well intern year might go.... seriously not depressed but I absolutely hated every second of life for a whole year. From constantly being shat upon by everyone inbetweeen janitors to attendings, no sleep, impossible exams, step2, gunners, awful residents, required community service, waking up at 3 am, drinking gallons of coffee, near constant IBS, this list is endless just reflecting is giving me some serious nausea... anyone else feel that way?

Seeing posts like these makes me sad and wonder why people choose medicine to begin with. I wake up at the crack of dawn, sure. But I go in with my symbolic coat and stethoscope with my notebook, notes and lists making my waste awkwardly look a little bigger than it is but nevertheless I am helping to heal mankind. Whether it be putting stickers on notes, pre-writing notes for the residents, or volunteering to stay late to take on one more admission. Why? Because that one more admission not only helps the team, it betters my skills I'm developing to become a doctor. I pity my classmates that pretend to be sick and study instead for some arbitrary shelf to honor the clerkship because even if I get a lower grade in the clerkship, I know that when we are sent out as soldiers into the world of healthcare, that I will be more prepared and ready than my coffee drinking, admit ditching, shelf studying classmates that are no better than that honors on their transcript while i truly live the life we all signed up for: a healer. I've wasted enough time on this thread when I could've been reading up on past hospitalizations and coming up with differentials and plans for each of the patients on our medlists while my bone head classmates are out getting drunk in between clerkships. We will see who will be laughing on rounds week 1 of the next clerkship when they are all depleted of their magnesium. Meanwhile this young future healer with a bright smile will keep to the promises I made when I wrote my personal statement and enlisted to what I consider my calling....






...Said every goober fake *** classmate of mine. Thank god SOME objectivity still exists in third year. For a damn good reason.

 

[grapefruit17]

Seeing posts like these makes me sad and wonder why people choose medicine to begin with. I wake up at the crack of dawn, sure. But I go in with my symbolic coat and stethoscope with my notebook, notes and lists making my waste awkwardly look a little bigger than it is but nevertheless I am helping to heal mankind. Whether it be putting stickers on notes, pre-writing notes for the residents, or volunteering to stay late to take on one more admission. Why? Because that one more admission not only helps the team, it betters my skills I'm developing to become a doctor. I pity my classmates that pretend to be sick and study instead for some arbitrary shelf to honor the clerkship because even if I get a lower grade in the clerkship, I know that when we are sent out as soldiers into the world of healthcare, that I will be more prepared and ready than my coffee drinking, admit ditching, shelf studying classmates that are no better than that honors on their transcript while i truly live the life we all signed up for: a healer. I've wasted enough time on this thread when I could've been reading up on past hospitalizations and coming up with differentials and plans for each of the patients on our medlists while my bone head classmates are out getting drunk in between clerkships. We will see who will be laughing on rounds week 1 of the next clerkship when they are all depleted of their magnesium. Meanwhile this young future healer with a bright smile will keep to the promises I made when I wrote my personal statement and enlisted to what I consider my calling....






...Said every goober fake *** classmate of mine. Thank god SOME objectivity still exists in third year. For a damn good reason.

Lmao!! I was reading this wondering if you were a robot.

Or someone highly deranged man.

Epic bait and switch

 

[grapefruit17]

Lmao!! I was reading this wondering if you were a robot.

Or someone highly deranged man.

Epic bait and switch

You had me at future healer lol

 

[Spectreman]

Seeing posts like these makes me sad and wonder why people choose medicine to begin with. I wake up at the crack of dawn, sure. But I go in with my symbolic coat and stethoscope with my notebook, notes and lists making my waste awkwardly look a little bigger than it is but nevertheless I am helping to heal mankind. Whether it be putting stickers on notes, pre-writing notes for the residents, or volunteering to stay late to take on one more admission. Why? Because that one more admission not only helps the team, it betters my skills I'm developing to become a doctor. I pity my classmates that pretend to be sick and study instead for some arbitrary shelf to honor the clerkship because even if I get a lower grade in the clerkship, I know that when we are sent out as soldiers into the world of healthcare, that I will be more prepared and ready than my coffee drinking, admit ditching, shelf studying classmates that are no better than that honors on their transcript while i truly live the life we all signed up for: a healer. I've wasted enough time on this thread when I could've been reading up on past hospitalizations and coming up with differentials and plans for each of the patients on our medlists while my bone head classmates are out getting drunk in between clerkships. We will see who will be laughing on rounds week 1 of the next clerkship when they are all depleted of their magnesium. Meanwhile this young future healer with a bright smile will keep to the promises I made when I wrote my personal statement and enlisted to what I consider my calling....






...Said every goober fake *** classmate of mine. Thank god SOME objectivity still exists in third year. For a damn good reason.

That was epic!

I will say, although I'm not a 3rd year yet, that I think working as a patient care tech in a regional hospital for several years has showed me a glimpse of what you guys are talking about. Being beyond the bottom of the totem pole, totally treated like garbage by the nurses, being scolded for saying ANYTHING to the docs. Working 12, sometime 18 hour shifts and being asked to come in on virtually EVERY day off. I have MANY memories of secretaries and nurses counting the minutes that I'm gone pooping during a 12 hour shift. There is a lot of back-biting in healthcare, and I personally think that environment is something premeds need to get serious exposure to before med school because it's a unique beast. It's definitely an advantage PAs and NPs have with the work requirements in order to apply to those programs. How to make the best of that atmosphere? If you can make a solid friendship with a few people on the unit, it'll make your day 1000 times better. That's my advice as a tech who was elbow deep in crap for 5 years, but what do I know?

 

[MrSunny1]

Epic haha I was thinking of like 1000s of counter arguments to that then saw the switch lol

Seeing posts like these makes me sad and wonder why people choose medicine to begin with. I wake up at the crack of dawn, sure. But I go in with my symbolic coat and stethoscope with my notebook, notes and lists making my waste awkwardly look a little bigger than it is but nevertheless I am helping to heal mankind. Whether it be putting stickers on notes, pre-writing notes for the residents, or volunteering to stay late to take on one more admission. Why? Because that one more admission not only helps the team, it betters my skills I'm developing to become a doctor. I pity my classmates that pretend to be sick and study instead for some arbitrary shelf to honor the clerkship because even if I get a lower grade in the clerkship, I know that when we are sent out as soldiers into the world of healthcare, that I will be more prepared and ready than my coffee drinking, admit ditching, shelf studying classmates that are no better than that honors on their transcript while i truly live the life we all signed up for: a healer. I've wasted enough time on this thread when I could've been reading up on past hospitalizations and coming up with differentials and plans for each of the patients on our medlists while my bone head classmates are out getting drunk in between clerkships. We will see who will be laughing on rounds week 1 of the next clerkship when they are all depleted of their magnesium. Meanwhile this young future healer with a bright smile will keep to the promises I made when I wrote my personal statement and enlisted to what I consider my calling....






...Said every goober fake *** classmate of mine. Thank god SOME objectivity still exists in third year. For a damn good reason.

 

[Kissmyabjj]

3rd year blows

 

[HooliganSnail]

Consider pathology. No intern year.

Do NOT consider pathology.....No jobs

 

[HooliganSnail]

I appreciate people that speak openly and honestly about their negative sentiments toward third year. I want to toss students across the parking lot that act like you've committed treason by saying you're not interested in some subject of medicine or the lifestyle of being a peon.

I could not stand those people. They make irritating residents too

 

[jm192]

I appreciate people that speak openly and honestly about their negative sentiments toward third year. I want to toss students across the parking lot that act like you've committed treason by saying you're not interested in some subject of medicine or the lifestyle of being a peon.

There is this unholy obsession of medical students to tell others they don't belong. And if you don't love every second of it, that's a reason to tell you that you're unfit or in it for the wrong reasons or blah blah blah. I think SDN often represents the extremes. But I agree it's very nice to see people being honest about their disdain for the peon years.

 

[JustPlainBill]

The memories fade as time passes, the screaming nightmares start to diminish, but every once in a while, even as an attending, you'll hear comments or certain tones of voice that send you back to that feeling of MS3 or residency years.

I distinctly recall the suck that was my first IM rotation --- our school had a new Dean that was big on making his people high performers on exams but not so much in terms of turning them into good clinicians which are not always the same thing. He implemented shelf exams as barrier exams -- you don't pass the shelf, you fail the rotation no matter how well you did on your evals.

The first IM rotation sucked -- the attending was a very nice guy who had lost his family to medicine (divorce) -- he would round on nursing homes during the day and when he was done with that, he'd come round in the hospital. We had to be there at 0700 for morning report, round on patients on our own with the intern/PGY2, then hang out and wait for lunch lecture and then hang out and wait for him to show up to be dismissed around 8 or 9 at night. The place we were at had virtually no quiet place to study so I wound up going through a pocket medicine question book as best I could. Problem was, he didn't teach anything in a coherent fashion, just went off on random tangents -- was more interested in discussing art history, food, western culture, etc.

Second IM rotation was with a hard charging IM/Peds IM hospitalist -- he pimped the crud out of you and we spent about 20 minutes one day with him pimping me on true allergic reactions -- the residents stood behind him and the PGY2 coached me through one answer by mouthing the answer -- afterwards, they all told me I had done well. Kinda of a rite of passage type of deal. I upgefucht once and made the mistake during a presentation on DIC of telling the attending when he tried to correct me that I was not disputing him but just reporting what the paper said. He held me back and chewed my ass for insolence. Whatever -- later on, I heard he was still talking about me in a good light for the next 3 months -- wound up writing one of my letters and recommended I pursue IM at a more prestigious institution in town. I didn't but it was nice to hear.

Gen surg was supposed to be chill but the dipstick who rotated with the community surgeon the month before me started volunteering to round on the census. It became the norm so I had to do it. Got behind one day and was coming out of ICU 5 minutes late on the run to meet the attending outside his office at 6:30am -- ran into him coming down the hall and proceeded to get a very eloquent ass chewing for making him late. Heard about that all day. In the end, he wound up taking me to his country club and offering to recommend me for a slot at Mass General where his buddy was the PD -- given the way his family life was, I politely demurred -- I prefer to know my wife and children's names and enjoy spending time with them -- to perform at his level, maybe it was his own personality quirk (most likely) but it seemed that he had pretty much sacrificed his family for surgery.

Ob/Gyn bit the big one -- I could not wait to get done with that one -- lots of idiocy and very, very slow, long days on the L&D deck.

The FM rotation was a waste and didn't prepare me for jack in residency, as was peds and OMM ---

Overall, 3rd year will have it's ups and downs, get used to feeling like low man on the totem pole, embrace it and try to look interested. It's worse when you're an intern -- you're expected to be an expert on your first day of each rotation and you can be physically abused and no one will say anything about it.

On the upside, once you're an attending, you can pretty much create the life you want -- there will be times of drawing sucky duty but if you don't like it, you just leave and go elsewhere -- it's all contract driven so be sure to set your parameters early and use a good attorney. Remember that if it's not written in the contract, it didn't/won't happen.

 

[ortnakas]

I'm a third year, and I've loved it for the most part, but the "everything is magic and butterflies and unicorns" crowd is just as annoying as the "everything sucks and I'm a martyr" crowd. Find a balance between being obnoxiously positive (nobody really likes life at 4 AM) and obnoxiously negative (we're all in the same boat, plus we signed up for this anyway).

 

[Phloston]

Is it normal to feel like I would rather die than repeat 3rd year if I had to choose? Literally, if sentenced to another 3rd year and no option to quit I'm pretty sure I would vote for the poison pill. Makes me wonder just how well intern year might go.... seriously not depressed but I absolutely hated every second of life for a whole year. From constantly being shat upon by everyone inbetweeen janitors to attendings, no sleep, impossible exams, step2, gunners, awful residents, required community service, waking up at 3 am, drinking gallons of coffee, near constant IBS, this list is endless just reflecting is giving me some serious nausea... anyone else feel that way?

I hated clinical years as well and it turned me off clinical medicine altogether.

97% of people will tell you the 'real world' is nothing like med school, so just hold it out. But it's also false reassurance if you ask me. A lot of people are too scared to admit to themselves that other career directions/options are OK to consider. No, 100% of people will not like clinical medicine, nor should they. That's just not how life operates.

You should read Michael Crichton's autobiography, 'Travels', particularly the chapter about how he hated medicine and, after graduating, left it altogether. I felt exactly the same during med school.

 

[Domperidone]

That's actually true.
I forgot about that. there's pathology for one, which was mentioned earlier in the thread.
Medicine is diverse, there's beauty in that.
i.e. you can 'hate' kids and just not do peds the rest of your life, but while you're in third year you have to. overall, suffer through 3rd year (and possibly even 4th year) to get to what you want later.

Part of the reason of having rotations, apart from the learning, is also figuring out what you can handle.
That said, many in this thread are just frustrated with lack of engagement in clinical medicine as MS3s and 'faux' responsibilities. (Which is fair)

 

[738177]

I hated clinical years as well and it turned me off clinical medicine altogether.

97% of people will tell you the 'real world' is nothing like med school, so just hold it out. But it's also false reassurance if you ask me. A lot of people are too scared to admit to themselves that other career directions/options are OK to consider. No, 100% of people will not like clinical medicine, nor should they. That's just not how life operates.

You should read Michael Crichton's autobiography, 'Travels', particularly the chapter about how he hated medicine and, after graduating, left it altogether. I felt exactly the same during med school.

I'm curious..what specialty did you end up choosing (if any at all)?