Have I screwed my life up?

[dawgs55]

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[deleted480308]

The repeat would sink an app if I was reviewing it, but others might feel different

 

[bananafish94]

First of all, you should talk to a lawyer and see what they can do in terms of getting the charge reduced. That being said, I’m afraid it doesn’t look all that great. I’m not convinced this will end your chances, but it puts a big dent in them. One thing is not a big deal, but two indicates a pattern. The fake ID is another issue because medicine is pretty firm on forgery and false documentation. You should still apply, but be prepared to address this in depth if you get interviews.

 

[Goro]

In August of my freshman year, I received a Institutional Action for being "Visibly Under the Influence of Alcohol" in a campus dorm. This was a dumb mistake, and I stayed out of trouble for over two years.

However, last weekend at a concert I received a Minor In Possession of Alcohol and Fake ID charge. I am a junior (3 weeks away from being 21, which just makes it more frustrating) and was hoping to apply next cycle. I figured that one mistake would be fine, but now I have two and am worried I won't be able to get in. Did I screw everything up for myself? I have a 3.95 GPA and 511 MCAT with good EC's.

It appears that you haven't learned your lessons.

As of right now, I believe that you're DOA at any med school. At the minimum, your medical career is in deep stasis.

Suggest taking off from this process for the next several years, and live an exemplary life. Try to engage in positions of responsibility.

 

[ExcitatorySynapse]

Berkley has this advice page. I have to say that I am incredibly grateful that my school did not care about these things, and that the local bars etc. only rejected your fake if it looked too s*****. My freshman year, my RA came and took shots at the floor parties (she is now at a top 10 MS btw). For the spring concerts, the school gave out bagels and water. Drinking while underage does not seem to be behavior that precludes one from being an excellent physician, and frankly, if I'm working my tail off to squeeze out good grades, volunteer, and do research, I would definitely want to let loose.

 

[deleted480308]

I am a little unclear here
Did you recieve an IA?
or was this a police charge?
If so was it a felony, misdemeanor, or an infraction?
And if I am not mistaken, AMCAS does not require that you report anything as a minor, it would be hard to say that a charge of Minor in possession of alcohol and Fake ID cant simply say it happened as a minor

charge seemed to be underage for alcohol which doesn't mean under 18

 

[panbimbo]

My mistake, legally juvenile and minor are not equivalent terms. ( My work at the law firm of Shyster and Shyster wasnt the best)

Was it misdemeanor or citation does matter

The law firm of Dewey, Cheatum and Howe was my favorite from my English teacher in high school... please tell me if you get the joke, bc it is really funny!

 

[BobbyKoch]

I think you meant Cambridge, our fair city, Mah.

Even though Goro's cat uses up one of his nine lives every time he hears us say it, this is NPR.

 

[allantois]

Berkley has this advice page. I have to say that I am incredibly grateful that my school did not care about these things, and that the local bars etc. only rejected your fake if it looked too s*****. My freshman year, my RA came and took shots at the floor parties (she is now at a top 10 MS btw). For the spring concerts, the school gave out bagels and water. Drinking while underage does not seem to be behavior that precludes one from being an excellent physician, and frankly, if I'm working my tail off to squeeze out good grades, volunteer, and do research, I would definitely want to let loose.

When do you think dishonest physicians first start exhibiting their traits?

 

[lac5678]

I had more IAs that led to arrests (recurring) then OP (involving drugs) and i fully disclosed them on my applications and I’ve gotten 2 interviews so far this cycle and work for a T20 med school even after having these arrests.


OP don’t listen to these people. Go find someone in real life to be supportive of you. Preferably a doctor who has experienced substance abuse and has been in trouble with the law/institution like you. I am sure you won’t have trouble finding one. Listen to them. Not people on the internet

 

[AttemptingScholar]

I had more IAs that led to arrests (recurring) then OP (involving drugs) and i fully disclosed them on my applications and I’ve gotten 2 interviews so far this cycle and work for a T20 med school even after having these arrests.


OP don’t listen to these people. Go find someone in real life to be supportive of you. Preferably a doctor who has experienced substance abuse and has been in trouble with the law/institution like you. I am sure you won’t have trouble finding one. Listen to them. Not people on the internet

If you don't mind, I'd love to hear your story in more detail

 

[ExcitatorySynapse]

When do you think dishonest physicians first start exhibiting their traits?

Look, plagiarism? cheating? Getting into a fight? Sure, warning signs of poor judgement or dishonesty. But drinking to blow off steam or have some fun? Please. Yes, there is probably some public health benefit to having a higher drinking age, which restricts the amount of alcohol adolescents have access to. But college drinking is commonplace and I can name any number of alumni from my school who are now attending top 10 etc. schools who drank in college. The RA I mentioned is one of the kindest people I know and she makes everyone feel welcome, genuinely cares about other people, and is also very smart. I would love to have her as my physician (or to be her colleague). Plus, I'm sure plenty of the adcom members also drank.

I also guarantee you that many successful premeds download music illicitly (I do not, for the record, and get laughed at), and I don't think they are terrible people for it.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

I remember seeing Dewey Cheetham and Howe on a 3 Stooges episode as a kid.

 

[allantois]

Look, plagiarism? cheating? Getting into a fight? Sure, warning signs of poor judgement or dishonesty. But drinking to blow off steam or have some fun? Please. Yes, there is probably some public health benefit to having a higher drinking age, which restricts the amount of alcohol adolescents have access to. But college drinking is commonplace and I can name any number of alumni from my school who are now attending top 10 etc. schools who drank in college. The RA I mentioned is one of the kindest people I know and she makes everyone feel welcome, genuinely cares about other people, and is also very smart. I would love to have her as my physician (or to be her colleague). Plus, I'm sure plenty of the adcom members also drank.

I also guarantee you that many successful premeds download music illicitly (I do not, for the record, and get laughed at), and I don't think they are terrible people for it.

Drinking laws are asinine, but using Fake ID repeatedly after you've been busted already and in hot waters, knowing that you will be applying to professional school? That's is just quite foolish, frankly.

 

[crazymedguy123]

I had more IAs that led to arrests (recurring) then OP (involving drugs) and i fully disclosed them on my applications and I’ve gotten 2 interviews so far this cycle and work for a T20 med school even after having these arrests.


OP don’t listen to these people. Go find someone in real life to be supportive of you. Preferably a doctor who has experienced substance abuse and has been in trouble with the law/institution like you. I am sure you won’t have trouble finding one. Listen to them. Not people on the internet

It's not about the IA's severity or quantity as much as it is about recency. If OP applies to med school less than 8 months after a repeat offense, then there's no way for them to show that they've matured since that experience occurred. I am assuming you are at least a couple of years removed from your IA's/arrests.

 

[dawgs55]

I am a little unclear here
Did you recieve an IA?
or was this a police charge?
If so was it a felony, misdemeanor, or an infraction?
And if I am not mistaken, AMCAS does not require that you report anything as a minor, it would be hard to say that a charge of Minor in possession of alcohol and Fake ID cant simply say it happened as a minor

I am a little unclear here
Did you recieve an IA?
or was this a police charge?
If so was it a felony, misdemeanor, or an infraction?
And if I am not mistaken, AMCAS does not require that you report anything as a minor, it would be hard to say that a charge of Minor in possession of alcohol and Fake ID cant simply say it happened as a minor

The first incident was an IA. The second is a misdemeanor.

 

[[Time]]

I like beer, I drank beer, I still like beer

 

[dr_kateb]

me too botha^

 

[Goro]

When do you think dishonest physicians first start exhibiting their traits?

There's published data that shows dishonest doctors start out as dishonest students.

Look, plagiarism? cheating? Getting into a fight? Sure, warning signs of poor judgement or dishonesty. But drinking to blow off steam or have some fun? Please. Yes, there is probably some public health benefit to having a higher drinking age, which restricts the amount of alcohol adolescents have access to. But college drinking is commonplace and I can name any number of alumni from my school who are now attending top 10 etc. schools who drank in college. The RA I mentioned is one of the kindest people I know and she makes everyone feel welcome, genuinely cares about other people, and is also very smart. I would love to have her as my physician (or to be her colleague). Plus, I'm sure plenty of the adcom members also drank.
I also guarantee you that many successful premeds download music illicitly (I do not, for the record, and get laughed at), and I don't think they are terrible people for it.

It's NOT about the drinking. It's about judgement. Adcoms have two particular thought processes when faced with applicants with red flags:
1) Do we want someone like this in our Class?
2) Why should we take a risk of this kid when we have so many other candidates who don't have red flags?

This isn't merely about drinking to blow off steam. That's why the first IA alone would not be lethal. It's merely be a speed bump, at best. But the two? That's lethal. We are allergic to people who make bad choices.

It's not about the IA's severity or quantity as much as it is about recency. If OP applies to med school less than 8 months after a repeat offense, then there's no way for them to show that they've matured since that experience occurred. I am assuming you are at least a couple of years removed from your IA's/arrests.

This...this...THIS! Somebody gets it.

 

[ClimbsRox]

Nothing to add about your chances, but while you are getting chewed out for making poor decisions, I'd like to point out that this could be 50% of the incoming class of any med school. The only difference is you got caught.

 

[dr_kateb]

Nothing to add about your chances, but while you are getting chewed out for making poor decisions, I'd like to point out that this could be 50% of the incoming class of any med school. The only difference is you got caught.

Ehhh. Probably a bit high with that estimation.

 

[ExcitatorySynapse]

There's published data that shows dishonest doctors start out as dishonest students.

It's NOT about the drinking. It's about judgement. Adcoms have two particular thought processes when faced with applicants with red flags:
1) Do we want someone like this in our Class?
2) Why should we take a risk of this kid when we have so many other candidates who don't have red flags?

This isn't merely about drinking to blow off steam. That's why the first IA alone would not be lethal. It's merely be a speed bump, at best. But the two? That's lethal. We are allergic to people who make bad choices.

This seems so nonsensical to me. They absolutely have students who used fakes, drank underage and looked like it in college, illegally downloaded music etc. Those kids just didn't get caught. And anyway, in many cases, you can't get into certain bars or buy or be served alcohol without an ID. It's the default action for a college kid, unless adcoms really expect kids to be saints and never have fun.
What's the difference in 'dishonesty' between drinking in a closed room and looking drunk while you walk back to your dorm? You're still breaking the law and the institution's alcohol policy. In 1, you just get caight.
I'm thankful that my school didn't try to stamp out drinking like OP's school or we'd have even higher rates of student discontent.

 

[Mad Jack]

Repeating the same mistakes while not expecting consequences bodes poorly for your application. You'll need to put a few years between you and these incidents and show that you have changed if you want a decent shot

 

[Mad Jack]

This seems so nonsensical to me. They absolutely have students who used fakes, drank underage and looked like it in college, illegally downloaded music etc. Those kids just didn't get caught. And anyway, in many cases, you can't get into certain bars or buy or be served alcohol without an ID. It's the default action for a college kid, unless adcoms really expect kids to be saints and never have fun.
What's the difference in 'dishonesty' between drinking in a closed room and looking drunk while you walk back to your dorm? You're still breaking the law and the institution's alcohol policy. In 1, you just get caight.
I'm thankful that my school didn't try to stamp out drinking like OP's school or we'd have even higher rates of student discontent.

The general thinking is that if someone is getting caught, they either do it so often that their behavior caught up with them, or that they were stupid and careless. Once you can brush off, but more than that? Nope. It establishes a pattern of behavior. Not only that but using a fake ID is particularly troubling, as it requires effort and foresight in the commission of a crime, not exactly traits anyone is clamoring for in a medical student.

Regardless, OP seems to have not learned their lesson and my general read is that at current, they lack the maturity to be a physician.

 

[Mad Jack]

There's published data that shows dishonest doctors start out as dishonest students.


It's NOT about the drinking. It's about judgement. Adcoms have two particular thought processes when faced with applicants with red flags:
1) Do we want someone like this in our Class?
2) Why should we take a risk of this kid when we have so many other candidates who don't have red flags?

This isn't merely about drinking to blow off steam. That's why the first IA alone would not be lethal. It's merely be a speed bump, at best. But the two? That's lethal. We are allergic to people who make bad choices.


This...this...THIS! Somebody gets it.

The kind of person that gets busted drinking with a fake ID is exactly the kind of person I expect to show up asking for leniency after they land a DUI or other alcohol related charge. Not someone I'd want to fill a spot that someone else could fill that would be less likely to cause trouble.

I know a guy who had a couple of instances of drinking incidents in college, got picked up by a med school. Had alcohol and behavioral issues in clinical years, took six total years to graduate. Landed a residency, got busted for destruction of property while drinking and has now been suspended. If they'd just not taken him in, their medical school and the residency program would have been better off. Past behavior is the most reliable predictor of future behavior

 

[Frogger27]

I had a similar arrest (although it was 4 years before when I applied) for fake ID and alcohol. Hire a lawyer. In my case, I had the fake ID charge dropped which was the more serious one. Applied with a misdemeanor possession of alcohol charge and received plenty of interviews

 

[sunshinefl]

Nothing to add about your chances, but while you are getting chewed out for making poor decisions, I'd like to point out that this could be 50% of the incoming class of any med school. The only difference is you got caught.

This seems so nonsensical to me. They absolutely have students who used fakes, drank underage and looked like it in college, illegally downloaded music etc. Those kids just didn't get caught. And anyway, in many cases, you can't get into certain bars or buy or be served alcohol without an ID. It's the default action for a college kid, unless adcoms really expect kids to be saints and never have fun.
What's the difference in 'dishonesty' between drinking in a closed room and looking drunk while you walk back to your dorm? You're still breaking the law and the institution's alcohol policy. In 1, you just get caight.
I'm thankful that my school didn't try to stamp out drinking like OP's school or we'd have even higher rates of student discontent.

It’s really annoying that people who do bad things perpetuate the idea that it’s okay because everyone else does too. I’m 12 years past drinking age and don’t drink, let alone with a fake ID. I have never illegally downloaded music or movies. Please stop trying to say this is commonplace in medical students. PS not a saint, not even religious. And have plenty of fun. You don’t need illegal activities and substances to have fun.

 

[ExcitatorySynapse]

The general thinking is that if someone is getting caught, they either do it so often that their behavior caught up with them, or that they were stupid and careless. Once you can brush off, but more than that? Nope. It establishes a pattern of behavior. Not only that but using a fake ID is particularly troubling, as it requires effort and foresight in the commission of a crime, not exactly traits anyone is clamoring for in a medical student.

Fair enough.

It’s really annoying that people who do bad things perpetuate the idea that it’s okay because everyone else does too. I’m 12 years past drinking age and don’t drink, let alone with a fake ID. I have never illegally downloaded music or movies. Please stop trying to say this is commonplace in medical students. PS not a saint, not even religious. And have plenty of fun. You don’t need illegal activities and substances to have fun.

You know what they say about assumptions....
Anyway, I can acknowledge that they may not line precisely with the law, but I don't see them as a huge character flaw. My school didn't - I know a kid who got caught streaming GoT on school internet, and his internet got shut off. He had a mandatory meeting with the IT people and they told him don't do it and then asked him what episode he was watching.
Plenty of people I know from my T5 undergrad did similar things and are studying at top med schools. I don't see them as bad people.

 

[eeyore spice]

In August of my freshman year, I received a Institutional Action for being "Visibly Under the Influence of Alcohol" in a campus dorm.

Welp, TIL this is a thing, and I've never been happier to be done with college forever. Was this in a public area of the dorm? Was it because you were underage?

 

[Goro]

This seems so nonsensical to me. They absolutely have students who used fakes, drank underage and looked like it in college, illegally downloaded music etc. Those kids just didn't get caught. And anyway, in many cases, you can't get into certain bars or buy or be served alcohol without an ID. It's the default action for a college kid, unless adcoms really expect kids to be saints and never have fun.
What's the difference in 'dishonesty' between drinking in a closed room and looking drunk while you walk back to your dorm? You're still breaking the law and the institution's alcohol policy. In 1, you just get caight.
I'm thankful that my school didn't try to stamp out drinking like OP's school or we'd have even higher rates of student discontent.

I can't sugar coat this. You're still not getting it. Have you taken the MCAT? if not, do watch out for the CARS section.

We're also NOT saying that OP is a bad person, just that s/he's not the type of person med schools want as a student. We want students who make good choices. OP had a chance to learn from mistakes and failed, and on top of that gave actual forthought to doing something wrong, and was not merely impaired.

 

[Goro]

It’s really annoying that people who do bad things perpetuate the idea that it’s okay because everyone else does too. I’m 12 years past drinking age and don’t drink, let alone with a fake ID. I have never illegally downloaded music or movies. Please stop trying to say this is commonplace in medical students. PS not a saint, not even religious. And have plenty of fun. You don’t need illegal activities and substances to have fun.

Solipsism is indeed a sin

 

[fantasticman221]

I'm not on the admissions committee, so my opinion is meaningless, but I would not view this favorably. I'm assuming because you had a fake, you've done this WAY more than once, so that kinda invalidates the idea that this was just a one time thing. In all honestly, to get caught really does take some skill. It means that more likely than not, you were overly drunk. Not a favorable characteristic in my eyes

 

[[Time]]

I say apply anyway. Worst case scenario your get R and wait a couple years.

Best case scenario you get in and don't forfeit years of earning potential

 

[Angus Avagadro]

I feel it is my civic duty to reduce the number of student who come before our disciplinary comittee. I do my best to identify them at the interview. Nobody is perfect, yet no one is interested in matriculating or hiring a problem when there are plenty of options.

 

[IgEdoc]

...Nobody is perfect, yet no one is interested in matriculating or hiring a problem when there are plenty of options.

Well, that is the gist of all this, isn’t it...plenty of other options. With a huge pool of great applicants, why bother with certain “flawed” ones...it’s a tough road.

 

[ExcitatorySynapse]

I can't sugar coat this. You're still not getting it. Have you taken the MCAT? if not, do watch out for the CARS section.

We're also NOT saying that OP is a bad person, just that s/he's not the type of person med schools want as a student. We want students who make good choices. OP had a chance to learn from mistakes and failed, and on top of that gave actual forthought to doing something wrong, and was not merely impaired.

Thank you for the patronization; I got a 521 (129 CARS) after studying for <3 weeks.
You are saying that drinking underage is a bad choice (opposite of a good choice), a mistake, and by using a fake ID, consciously engaged in this very, very wrong act. Others on this thread have claimed that they would expect a student who does something like what OP did, would be the type to get a DUI.

The question at hand to me, is whether underage drinking is morally wrong. As everyone knows, drinking laws in the US are absurdly Puritan and discordant with many first world countries. If he was in Canada, or Spain, his first ‘infraction’ wouldn’t count for anything. If you don’t consider a rule to be morally correct, taking actions to circumvent it is natural.
The law is not the ultimate arbiter of morality. Students at my alma mater have a reputation for protesting. Once, several students camped out in the President’s office to demand that our school divest from fossil fuels. They probably got IAs, and 'illegally trespassed,' but does that make their actions a big mistake? In fact, in the 60s, I think kids had to be pulled out with police help because of Vietnam war protests. At the time, I'm sure administrators made fun of them, now they show clips of the protestors in our classes. Similarly, a man was arrested for giving food and water to undocumented immigrants. If the law were to change 15 years from now, people would consider the repercussions OP faced to be OTT.

The only thing that you can viably evaluate is whether OP acted smartly in deciding to break this stupid law and risk the consequences. If you think the law is wrong, as many of the faculty and staff at my snobby undergrad did, you turn a blind eye to it and don't consider it a black mark. Jaywalking is wrong, and yet everyone in NYC does it. I would not judge someone who jaywalks as someone who is likely to commit a DUI. Furthermore, both underage drinking laws and jaywalking laws are selectively enforced.
A better argument is that there are plenty of students who don't have any marks against them, however, minor, so it's an easy choice to toss OP. But if he was a highly competitive applicant, I would find it strange, and also unlikely that schools would chuck his application. But that's not the tone I got from most of the posters, including you, who seem to think that what he did was genuinely wrong.

Anyway, I am done with this conversation.

 

[Goro]

Thank you for the patronization; I got a 521 (129 CARS) after studying for <3 weeks.
You are saying that drinking underage is a bad choice (opposite of a good choice), a mistake, and by using a fake ID, consciously engaged in this very, very wrong act. Others on this thread have claimed that they would expect a student who does something like what OP did, would be the type to get a DUI.

The question at hand to me, is whether underage drinking is morally wrong. As everyone knows, drinking laws in the US are absurdly Puritan and discordant with many first world countries. If he was in Canada, or Spain, his first ‘infraction’ wouldn’t count for anything. If you don’t consider a rule to be morally correct, taking actions to circumvent it is natural.
The law is not the ultimate arbiter of morality. Students at my alma mater have a reputation for protesting. Once, several students camped out in the President’s office to demand that our school divest from fossil fuels. They probably got IAs, and 'illegally trespassed,' but does that make their actions a big mistake? In fact, in the 60s, I think kids had to be pulled out with police help because of Vietnam war protests. At the time, I'm sure administrators made fun of them, now they show clips of the protestors in our classes. Similarly, a man was arrested for giving food and water to undocumented immigrants. If the law were to change 15 years from now, people would consider the repercussions OP faced to be OTT.

The only thing that you can viably evaluate is whether OP acted smartly in deciding to break this stupid law and risk the consequences. If you think the law is wrong, as many of the faculty and staff at my snobby undergrad did, you turn a blind eye to it and don't consider it a black mark. Jaywalking is wrong, and yet everyone in NYC does it. I would not judge someone who jaywalks as someone who is likely to commit a DUI. Furthermore, both underage drinking laws and jaywalking laws are selectively enforced.
A better argument is that there are plenty of students who don't have any marks against them, however, minor, so it's an easy choice to toss OP. But if he was a highly competitive applicant, I would find it strange, and also unlikely that schools would chuck his application. But that's not the tone I got from most of the posters, including you, who seem to think that what he did was genuinely wrong.

Anyway, I am done with this conversation.

*sigh*
Where's @AnatomyGrey12 and his logic flaw flags when you need him?

 

[[Time]]

Well, that is the gist of all this, isn’t it...plenty of other options. With a huge pool of great applicants, why bother with certain “flawed” ones...it’s a tough road.

Indeed.

OP has a year until app cycle. Enough time to write quality PS/secondaries that integrate remorse/maturation.

That combined with having everything in first day would give him best odds.

 

[fantasticman221]

Thank you for the patronization; I got a 521 (129 CARS) after studying for <3 weeks.
You are saying that drinking underage is a bad choice (opposite of a good choice), a mistake, and by using a fake ID, consciously engaged in this very, very wrong act. Others on this thread have claimed that they would expect a student who does something like what OP did, would be the type to get a DUI.

The question at hand to me, is whether underage drinking is morally wrong. As everyone knows, drinking laws in the US are absurdly Puritan and discordant with many first world countries. If he was in Canada, or Spain, his first ‘infraction’ wouldn’t count for anything. If you don’t consider a rule to be morally correct, taking actions to circumvent it is natural.
The law is not the ultimate arbiter of morality. Students at my alma mater have a reputation for protesting. Once, several students camped out in the President’s office to demand that our school divest from fossil fuels. They probably got IAs, and 'illegally trespassed,' but does that make their actions a big mistake? In fact, in the 60s, I think kids had to be pulled out with police help because of Vietnam war protests. At the time, I'm sure administrators made fun of them, now they show clips of the protestors in our classes. Similarly, a man was arrested for giving food and water to undocumented immigrants. If the law were to change 15 years from now, people would consider the repercussions OP faced to be OTT.

The only thing that you can viably evaluate is whether OP acted smartly in deciding to break this stupid law and risk the consequences. If you think the law is wrong, as many of the faculty and staff at my snobby undergrad did, you turn a blind eye to it and don't consider it a black mark. Jaywalking is wrong, and yet everyone in NYC does it. I would not judge someone who jaywalks as someone who is likely to commit a DUI. Furthermore, both underage drinking laws and jaywalking laws are selectively enforced.
A better argument is that there are plenty of students who don't have any marks against them, however, minor, so it's an easy choice to toss OP. But if he was a highly competitive applicant, I would find it strange, and also unlikely that schools would chuck his application. But that's not the tone I got from most of the posters, including you, who seem to think that what he did was genuinely wrong.

Anyway, I am done with this conversation.

The crux of your argument revolves around comparing the idea getting an IA for protesting peacefully vs getting an IA for underage drinking. I just don't find those things comparable. You're forgetting the issue isn't so much underage drinking in the act itself, but rather the fact that most of the people that drink underage do so in excess, putting themselves and others at risk. That's why I personally frown upon it, and I elect not to drink. A lot of the habits you have now you carry throughout your life. I wouldn't want someone like that to be a doctor

 

[Goro]

Indeed.

OP has a year until app cycle. Enough time to write quality PS/secondaries that integrate remorse/maturation.

That combined with having everything in first day would give him best odds.

It's not as simple as you make it out to be.

 

[dr_kateb]

Thank you for the patronization; I got a 521 (129 CARS) after studying for <3 weeks.
You are saying that drinking underage is a bad choice (opposite of a good choice), a mistake, and by using a fake ID, consciously engaged in this very, very wrong act. Others on this thread have claimed that they would expect a student who does something like what OP did, would be the type to get a DUI.

The question at hand to me, is whether underage drinking is morally wrong. As everyone knows, drinking laws in the US are absurdly Puritan and discordant with many first world countries. If he was in Canada, or Spain, his first ‘infraction’ wouldn’t count for anything. If you don’t consider a rule to be morally correct, taking actions to circumvent it is natural.
The law is not the ultimate arbiter of morality. Students at my alma mater have a reputation for protesting. Once, several students camped out in the President’s office to demand that our school divest from fossil fuels. They probably got IAs, and 'illegally trespassed,' but does that make their actions a big mistake? In fact, in the 60s, I think kids had to be pulled out with police help because of Vietnam war protests. At the time, I'm sure administrators made fun of them, now they show clips of the protestors in our classes. Similarly, a man was arrested for giving food and water to undocumented immigrants. If the law were to change 15 years from now, people would consider the repercussions OP faced to be OTT.

The only thing that you can viably evaluate is whether OP acted smartly in deciding to break this stupid law and risk the consequences. If you think the law is wrong, as many of the faculty and staff at my snobby undergrad did, you turn a blind eye to it and don't consider it a black mark. Jaywalking is wrong, and yet everyone in NYC does it. I would not judge someone who jaywalks as someone who is likely to commit a DUI. Furthermore, both underage drinking laws and jaywalking laws are selectively enforced.
A better argument is that there are plenty of students who don't have any marks against them, however, minor, so it's an easy choice to toss OP. But if he was a highly competitive applicant, I would find it strange, and also unlikely that schools would chuck his application. But that's not the tone I got from most of the posters, including you, who seem to think that what he did was genuinely wrong.

Anyway, I am done with this conversation.

Getting drunk =\= protesting for peace. And you can spin any law to make it seem morally subjective if you’re going for the nihilist perspective, which is really edgy by the way. Why is murder wrong if everything is meaningless? Why is rape wrong when other animals do it? Etc.

 

[[Time]]

It's not as simple as you make it out to be.

What I'm saying is that if OP decides to apply next cycle, he has time and opportunity to focus on things under his control which can increase his odds of getting accepted.

OP has considerably reduced his odds, but I don't think they're close to zero.

Applying a year from now would be worth the gamble for me.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Thank you for the patronization; I got a 521 (129 CARS) after studying for <3 weeks.
You are saying that drinking underage is a bad choice (opposite of a good choice), a mistake, and by using a fake ID, consciously engaged in this very, very wrong act. Others on this thread have claimed that they would expect a student who does something like what OP did, would be the type to get a DUI.

The question at hand to me, is whether underage drinking is morally wrong. As everyone knows, drinking laws in the US are absurdly Puritan and discordant with many first world countries. If he was in Canada, or Spain, his first ‘infraction’ wouldn’t count for anything. If you don’t consider a rule to be morally correct, taking actions to circumvent it is natural.
The law is not the ultimate arbiter of morality. Students at my alma mater have a reputation for protesting. Once, several students camped out in the President’s office to demand that our school divest from fossil fuels. They probably got IAs, and 'illegally trespassed,' but does that make their actions a big mistake? In fact, in the 60s, I think kids had to be pulled out with police help because of Vietnam war protests. At the time, I'm sure administrators made fun of them, now they show clips of the protestors in our classes. Similarly, a man was arrested for giving food and water to undocumented immigrants. If the law were to change 15 years from now, people would consider the repercussions OP faced to be OTT.

The only thing that you can viably evaluate is whether OP acted smartly in deciding to break this stupid law and risk the consequences. If you think the law is wrong, as many of the faculty and staff at my snobby undergrad did, you turn a blind eye to it and don't consider it a black mark. Jaywalking is wrong, and yet everyone in NYC does it. I would not judge someone who jaywalks as someone who is likely to commit a DUI. Furthermore, both underage drinking laws and jaywalking laws are selectively enforced.
A better argument is that there are plenty of students who don't have any marks against them, however, minor, so it's an easy choice to toss OP. But if he was a highly competitive applicant, I would find it strange, and also unlikely that schools would chuck his application. But that's not the tone I got from most of the posters, including you, who seem to think that what he did was genuinely wrong.

Anyway, I am done with this conversation.

Your lecture on situational ethics has little to do with OPs situation. Poor choices with drugs and alcohol translates to a greater chance of coming before the disciplinary comittee. Complaining about how jaywalking laws are enforced adds little credibility to your position. Why hire or matriculate problems if there are abundant candidates? You never addressed that point

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Your lecture on situational ethics has little to do with OPs situation. Poor choices with drugs and alcohol translates to a greater chance of coming before the disciplinary comittee. Complaining about how jaywalking laws are enforced adds little credibility to your position. Why hire or matriculate problems if there are abundant candidates? You never addressed that point

Life is full of choices. Make good ones!