"Have you been convicted..." (secondaries)

[Oranges2]

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Apologize because I know this has been discussed a lot...but....

"3. Have you ever been convicted of, plead guilty, or plead no lo contendere (i.e., no contest, I do not wish to contend) to a criminal offense? "

If I had a case that was expunged, (my lawyer recently did a check with the court where I had the incident and nothing on my record showed up), can I say no? This question doesn't specify that I have to disclose expunged cases...

 

[gyngyn]

Apologize because I know this has been discussed a lot...but....

"3. Have you ever been convicted of, plead guilty, or plead no lo contendere (i.e., no contest, I do not wish to contend) to a criminal offense? "

If I had a case that was expunged, (my lawyer recently did a check with the court where I had the incident and nothing on my record showed up), can I say no? This question doesn't specify that I have to disclose expunged cases...

What did you plead? Were you convicted?
Juvenile records will appear on many background checks (expunged or not).
Schools that have primary affiliations with government hospitals will ask these questions in order to anticipate the possibility that the student may not be able to get a badge to learn in a required site.

For the primary, juvenile records need not be disclosed.

 

[ChrisMack390]

Lying about a destroyed university record is one thing.

Lying about an actual conviction is just not going to work. There are always records.

 

[Oranges2]

What did you plead? Were you convicted?
Juvenile records will appear on many background checks (expunged or not).
Schools that have primary affiliations with government hospitals will ask these questions in order to anticipate the possibility that the student may not be able to get a badge to learn in a required site.

For the primary, juvenile records need not be disclosed.

I wasn't technically convicted I think, it was just a charge for underage drinking freshmen year of college and my lawyer set up a deal with the judge -- I took a remedial course and got it expunged.

So in my case could I say 'no' but still provide an explanation?

 

[medic86]

I wasn't technically convicted I think, it was just a charge for underage drinking freshmen year of college and my lawyer set up a deal with the judge -- I took a remedial course and got it expunged.

So in my case could I say 'no' but still provide an explanation?

I'd suggest finding out for sure.

 

[gyngyn]

I wasn't technically convicted I think, it was just a charge for underage drinking freshmen year of college and my lawyer set up a deal with the judge -- I took a remedial course and got it expunged.

So in my case could I say 'no' but still provide an explanation?

You should still find out what you plead and answer accurately.
It sounds like you took a lesser plea (like no lo contendre).

 

[Oranges2]

You should still find out what you plead and answer accurately.
It sounds like you took a lesser plea (like no lo contendre).

Definitely... but plot twist - my lawyer retired and after I called him a few times with some questions he kind of blew up on me asking me why I keep bothering him and to stop bothering him and that he doesn't remember my case. 🙁 I'm working with another lawyer now, but he obviously doesn't have the details of my case.

 

[gyngyn]

Definitely... but plot twist - my lawyer retired and after I called him a few times with some questions he kind of blew up on me asking me why I keep bothering him and to stop bothering him and that he doesn't remember my case. 🙁 I'm working with another lawyer now, but he obviously doesn't have the details of my case.

You have a right to know the disposition of your case.
If the original lawyer won't give it to you, call the State Bar Association.

 

[Oranges2]

You have a right to know the disposition of your case.
If the original lawyer won't give it to you, call the State Bar Association.

Ah, the State Bar Association keeps records of all cases?! That would be super helpful...

(this is for secondaries by the way, i forgot to mention this)

 

[gyngyn]

Ah, the State Bar Association keeps records of all cases?! That would be super helpful...

No, they probably don't, but they can help you get your lawyer to do right by you.
They can also help you navigate the court system.

 

[Oranges2]

Okay, I'll try to get in touch with them on Monday! Hopefully they'll be able to help me out. Thanks @gyngyn and hope you have a nice 4th!!

 

[soulofmpatel]

I suggest you answer "no."

The whole point of expunging records is so that they won't affect you later in life. The university is essentially attempting to override the court decision by asking you to divulge an expunged record. I don't think there is an ethical issue here because the court legally ruled to expunge your record. Also, it's a trivial charge that should not affect you professionally. I think confessing to this is like confessing that you burned an ant with a magnifying class when you were 5.

 

[Goro]

The Court itself should have a record of the outcome.

You have a right to know the disposition of your case.
If the original lawyer won't give it to you, call the State Bar Association.

 

[Goro]

The crime itself is less of an issue as the appearance of being les than truthful..

I suggest you answer "no."

The whole point of expunging records is so that they won't affect you later in life. The university is essentially attempting to override the court decision by asking you to divulge an expunged record. I don't think there is an ethical issue here because the court legally ruled to expunge your record. Also, it's a trivial charge that should not affect you professionally. I think confessing to this is like confessing that you burned an ant with a magnifying class when you were 5.

 

[Oranges2]

@Goro yeah, I want to be as transparent as possible. But at the same time, I don't want to draw unnecessary attention my way. Perhaps I should call the school anonymously to see how to best interpret their language in these questions, as well as investigate the disposition of my case..

Thanks @gonnif those are great suggestions!

Quick question - I had my (second) lawyer go to the clerk of the court (where my crime was committed) and search my name in the records. He got a letter essentially from the clerk of the court signed and dated showing that no matches come up when my name is searched (i.e. nothing came up on my record from the court). Does this provide sufficient evidence that I can say "no" (when the question does not ask for you to divulge expunged records)? Or does this only mean in that particular state, my record comes up clean now?

 

[Moose A Moose]

Once you finish medical school the federal check for you license will see all (expunged or not), and they'll expect you to report any infractions. However, at this point you are only to list cases wherein you were CONVICTED. I'm quite certain that it actually says that you shouldn't worry about reporting expunged. Find out your final outcome of the case because certain plea bargains don't come up as withdrawn, but instead as something else that will still be viewable. You're going to be just fine.

 

[nwts]

I'm quite certain that it actually says that you shouldn't worry about reporting expunged.

On the AMCAS that's true, but OP is talking about secondaries. Some secondaries actually do ask you to disclose expunged convictions.

 

[LizzyM]

Underage drinking as a college freshman is not going to derail your application. There would be no record to expunge unless you had a conviction. Best to say, "yes, I had a record for underage drinking during my freshman year but the record was expunged upon petitioning the court." That way you have it out on the table and there are no surprises later during a criminal background check. I have never seen underage drinking, by itself, derail an application so you shouldn't worry about that at all.

 

[Goro]

Ditto!

Underage drinking as a college freshman is not going to derail your application. There would be no record to expunge unless you had a conviction. Best to say, "yes, I had a record for underage drinking during my freshman year but the record was expunged upon petitioning the court." That way you have it out on the table and there are no surprises later during a criminal background check. I have never seen underage drinking, by itself, derail an application so you shouldn't worry about that at all.

 

[soulofmpatel]

Underage drinking as a college freshman is not going to derail your application. There would be no record to expunge unless you had a conviction. Best to say, "yes, I had a record for underage drinking during my freshman year but the record was expunged upon petitioning the court." That way you have it out on the table and there are no surprises later during a criminal background check. I have never seen underage drinking, by itself, derail an application so you shouldn't worry about that at all.

I don't agree with this. Admissions committees are foolish and may interpret this as a sign of immaturity or recklessness. There is significant bias in our society against anyone with any history of criminal behavior (unfairly in my opinion). I suggest you just answer "no." If the record is expunged, you will be fine. Even if you were theoretically found out, you can simply state that the record was expunged and you felt you were within your rights to act as though it had never happened.

 

[IlDestriero]

You have a right to know the disposition of your case.
If the original lawyer won't give it to you, call the State Bar Association.

He's retired, what are they going to do, come take his Jaguar away?

 

[gyngyn]

He's retired, what are they going to do, come take his Jaguar away?

Even retired lawyers don't like being called on the carpet by their licensing body.

 

[LizzyM]

I don't agree with this. Admissions committees are foolish and may interpret this as a sign of immaturity or recklessness. There is significant bias in our society against anyone with any history of criminal behavior (unfairly in my opinion). I suggest you just answer "no." If the record is expunged, you will be fine. Even if you were theoretically found out, you can simply state that the record was expunged and you felt you were within your rights to act as though it had never happened.

How much actual experience do you have with admissions committees? Have you served on one? How many years?

 

[Dral]

I don't agree with this. Admissions committees are foolish and may interpret this as a sign of immaturity or recklessness. There is significant bias in our society against anyone with any history of criminal behavior (unfairly in my opinion). I suggest you just answer "no." If the record is expunged, you will be fine. Even if you were theoretically found out, you can simply state that the record was expunged and you felt you were within your rights to act as though it had never happened.

That is all well and good, but your big picture reasoning is exactly why they SHOULD report it.

Just as adcoms are subjective, so are state boards. Depending on whose desk an app lands on, it could be real trouble for the applicant. As explained to me by state board legal council: it's way better to have a charge of underage years ago than a recent charge of dishonesty.

Ignorance likely won't fly as an excuse unfortunately.

The wording on my state board app was the same as the OPs almost verbatim.

I had an underage charge. Could not find even a record of it (it was back before electronic records). I reported it on my state medical license app anyway. Had my license three weeks later.

 

[IlDestriero]

Even retired lawyers don't like being called on the carpet by their licensing body.

The only carpet he'll be going to is at the bar at the country club. All his court records are available from the court, why would he come out of retirement to go back to work for a client from years ago. I'm not sure what you expect him to do. His obligation to the OP ended when they signed the plea bargain and he cashed the check.
If someone called me to explain an anesthesia record from a case that I did 5 years before I retired, I'd say call the hospital and request it and schedule an appointment to talk with an anesthesiologist as I'm retired and don't work there anymore, and then I'd go back to playing tennis.
Will the medical board come to sanction me for something? Ha!

 

[gyngyn]

The only carpet he'll be going to is at the bar at the country club. All his court records are available from the court, why would he come out of retirement to go back to work for a client from years ago. I'm not sure what you expect him to do. His obligation to the OP ended when they signed the plea bargain and he cashed the check.

He still has a fiduciary responsibility.
Law is a profession, not an occupation.

 

[Oranges2]

Hi All - thanks for all your helpful insight.

An update - so I called the schools asking what the best course of action is - and they all recommend being as transparent as possible (even if expunged).

I have decided to err on the side of full disclosure and on that note, would anyone be willing to read my brief explanation to see if it's appropriate?

Also, can't get the original disposition of my case because the state has no record of my case augh