Having trouble deciding between Vet School and Med School

[oNichole]

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I have always loved animals and recently decided I want to be a veterinarian. It was soon after I made that decision that I started stressing out about money. I am a sophomore in college and am paying for everything myself. My parents have no money and there is a good chance we will be homeless by next month. I'm looking at over $200,000 dollars in debt after vet school, and that is if I pay of the loan I took out last year, continue undergrad debt free, and go to a relatively cheap school. If not I'll be looking at $300,000 or more.

It seems that a veterinarians salary in so. cal. would not provide a comfortable living after loan payments are taken into account. I have been poor my whole life and the thought of going to school for 8 years just to continue being broke is appalling to say the least.

I was looking into becoming a doctor with a specialty in anesthesiology or radiology, that way I could make a short term sacrifice (first working year) and pay off my loans all at once. The only thing is I am not much of a people person. I don't know if I would enjoy a career in anesthesiology.
As soon as I convince myself to go for vet because the job itself will be more satisfying, I think that there is more to life than work. What good is liking your job if you can't travel or buy a home? I've never left the country and it would be a shame if my travel experiences were limited because of the career I chose.

I guess I just need to see someone else's point of view on the issue.
I know no one can tell me what to do, but your opinions may provide me with more considerations. After all, many of you are in the same boat as far as the debt.

Thanks for taking the time to read a long post. 🙂

 

[david594]

The only thing is I am not much of a people person. I don't know if I would enjoy a career in anesthesiology.
As soon as I convince myself to go for vet because the job itself will be more satisfying, I think that there is more to life than work.

This statement worries me. Have you ever worked in a veterinary clinic/hospital before? If you are not much of a people person I think you would probably be better suited for anesthesiology than for veterinary medicine. At least doing anesthesiology you will be dealing with a regular group of people(OR/hospital staff) on a day to day basis. As a vet your biggest interaction will be with the general public every day(assuming you are interested in clinical practice).

 

[VeganChick]

Piggybacking on what David said, IMHO, as a veterinarian (thinking typical small animal vet, which is what you seem to be thinking), you have to actually like people MORE. Remember, clients bring their animals to you with illnesses they do not understand, financial costs that they cannot even comprehend, and having to make choices they never expected to make. If you don't like people, you are going to REALLY hate your job because you will probably spend just as much if not MORE time talking and explaining things to clients than you would if you were a human doctor.

 

[quakk]

the bad news is no matter what you do, you'll have to deal with people. the good news is you can learn the skills you'll need. if you're a sophomore, i'm guessing 19-20yo? you have a lot of time.

$300k is a scary lot of debt, but not unheard of. can you go to a less expensive undergrad? what about in-state vet/med? whatever you do, there are options for paying off or deferring your loans. look into those and educate yourself before you make that your deciding factor.

lastly, from experience - what good is earning good money if you hate your job?

 

[quakk]

.

 

[dgm]

lastly, from experience - what good is earning good money if you hate your job?

👍

I freak out about the money aspect of vet med on an almost-daily basis, but right now I make a comfortable salary in engineering and believe me, that paycheck is not enough to get me out of bed every day for the next 30 years or so. I am going to miss having money, but enough people have done this... I know I can make it work, too. To a certain extent, it is a leap of faith. I guess I'll know in about ten years whether it was a good choice!

Oh and PS, human medicine internship/residency doesn't sound like a cakewalk, either... And I must just be missing part of the job description, but while I've heard in the past that anesthesiology pays well, I can't imagine what makes it an intellectually stimulating job.

 

[bunnity]

This thread has some good comparisons between human and veterinary medicine and a lot of good food for thought. It talks about salary stuff as well:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=643449

My advice is to get some experience in both fields. Once you are around vets and doctors on a regular basis, you will get a good idea of what they do and whether you would like to do it. You need the experience to get into school (especially vet school) anyway - and it will help guide your decision. It is definitely hard to get experience while working your way through school, but there are some hospital jobs in the human medical field that pay OK and don't require too much training. I worked my way through undergrad as a cardiac technician (for people; I don't think they exist for animals) and it was a great job with pretty flexible shifts.

As far as being a people person, pretty much any medical field involves a lot of interaction with people. That said, I wouldn't have considered myself a people person when I started at the hospital. While plenty of people were annoying, most of my patients were awesome and talked to me about their lives and wished me luck in school. I learned a lot from them - people facing open heart surgery, cancer, and death were almost universally upbeat, joking around, and friendly to those of us doing endless tests on them. My co-workers were also amazing and I still consider them my friends. What I'm trying to say is that you might surprise yourself by liking people more than you think.

 

[pyxystyx]

Piggybacking on what David said, IMHO, as a veterinarian (thinking typical small animal vet, which is what you seem to be thinking), you have to actually like people MORE. Remember, clients bring their animals to you with illnesses they do not understand, financial costs that they cannot even comprehend, and having to make choices they never expected to make. If you don't like people, you are going to REALLY hate your job because you will probably spend just as much if not MORE time talking and explaining things to clients than you would if you were a human doctor.

Everythin you guys are saying about having to like people MORE as a Vet, sorry but I disagree.
Most DVM's I've met are not at ALL thrilled to be talking to people- hence the reason why they probably decided to work with animals. I even heard one say once, "Unfortunately, dogs can't just drive themselves to the clinic".
This is why I think some of the doctors who use their time most efficiently (and, maybe as a side note also don't like people as much...?) deal directly with the clients themselves as little as possible, having their Techs do a lot of the History taking, background, and general info and simpler treatments in exams, and focusing their time on minimal time in the exam room and doing other treatments/surgeries.
Bottom line, I don't think not being a people-person will make you miserable in Vet Med. Actually, I think there's more opportunity to avoid it than in Human med.
I kinda consider myself a people-person, so I really don't care either way. 🙂

 

[turnbackhelly]

Everythin you guys are saying about having to like people MORE as a Vet, sorry but I disagree.
Most DVM's I've met are not at ALL thrilled to be talking to people- hence the reason why they probably decided to work with animals. I even heard one say once, "Unfortunately, dogs can't just drive themselves to the clinic".
This is why I think some of the doctors who use their time most efficiently (and, maybe as a side note also don't like people as much...?) deal directly with the clients themselves as little as possible, having their Techs do a lot of the History taking, background, and general info and simpler treatments in exams, and focusing their time on minimal time in the exam room and doing other treatments/surgeries.

Although I do not disagree with you here, the DVMs you speak of (I work with a few too!) may also be those who went into vet med because they're not huge fans of people, not realizing how much client interaction the job actually entails. That being said, IMO those going into the profession with a pretty good idea of what it's all about should realize that it's just as much about people as it is about animals. Also, one of the best/most talented clinicians I've ever worked with (SA emergency/CC) is also one of the best with her clients at the same time, and I don't think the two are entirely mutally exclusive. Overall I think connecting with clients on a more personal level than sending a technician to gather the history or relay the diagnosis often results in better medicine. Just my opinion.

On the other hand, I think the amount of interpersonal interaction you have as a DVM depends a lot on what you end up doing as a DVM. For example, DVMs in research or pathology (off the top of my head) likely have to interact with people much less than DVMs in SA general practice. Of course no matter where you end up you will almost certainly have coworkers to interact with, even if you don't have to interact with as many clients as another DVM in a different field.

 

[lailanni]

In a general practice you spend most of your day in exam rooms with clients. You will be stuck with people. If you go into a specialty I'm sure you can pick something that doesn't interact with as many people, but that is at least another 4 years of training. You could go into vet related research, that'd be a fantastic way of minimizing exposure to the general public if you found a place where you'd be in the lab all day.

If you're concerned about money and don't like dealing with people, vet med general clinical practice probably wouldn't be a good idea. Perhaps probe into another area of vet med or go human med. If you're in anesthesiology your patients will all be sleeping, so that's great!

 

[david594]

Pyxystyx, I agree with you that some people can work as vets and try to minimize their contact time with clients. I dont necessary agree that it is the best thing though.

Fluffy that clients are bringing in is becoming more of a family member than a piece of property, and their is a much greater emotional attachment going on their than most people have with their car/toaster/fridge/other random appliance. People want a vet who they are comfortable with and trust. So if the vet comes in the room quick, and ignores the client so they can give the patient their exam and the shots, they are not fostering that kind of trust with the client. Their is a perceived value here, and if the client doesn't feel they are being taken care of they will simply go to the next vet up the street next time fluffy isn't feeling well.

The medicine is important, but if you want to run a successful clinic, you need to make the clients happy. Happy enough that they will tell all their friends to come and see you when their regular vets make them unhappy. And then keep them happy so they continue to come back.

My 2 cents on small animal practice.

 

[CatVet2Be]

The medicine is important, but if you want to run a successful clinic, you need to make the clients happy. Happy enough that they will tell all their friends to come and see you when their regular vets make them unhappy. And then keep them happy so they continue to come back.

My 2 cents on small animal practice.

I couldn't agree more! One of the most requested Drs. at the practice I'm at isn't necessarily the best clinician but is hands down the best people person. Clients love her and recommend her to their friends constantly. I once asked the owner of the practice what the difference was between a "good vet" and a "great vet" and he pointed at her and said it's the client interaction.

 

[oNichole]

I'd like to thank of all you for your thoughtful responses. 🙂

Some responses and additional details:

As far as my veterinary specialty I was thinking Pathology for the reasons stated. Much better pay. Few people to deal with (other than other employees of course). But then I realized I would probably like anesthesiology more than veterinary pathology, and I'd be making more.

Have you ever worked in a veterinary clinic/hospital before? .

Unfortunately no. I have applied to dozens, and then realized I could only work at a vet hospital because of the hours. I applied to both in my area and got no response. I then called each of them saying that I understand if there are no paid positions and that I would love to volunteer a couple days each week and maybe shadow a vet. Still no response. I'm volunteering at the humane society but that doesn't really help because I already know I love animals, it's the vet experience I need.

$300k is a scary lot of debt, but not unheard of. can you go to a less expensive undergrad? what about in-state vet/med?

The $200K estimate is with in-state vet med and no debt from undergrad. I will be going to one of the cheapest state schools (probably not the cheapest but it allows me to live at home so saving a ton there) and hopefully not incurring any more debt (I have $3,500 from the lovely private I went to last year). The $300k estimate is just in case I do incur more debt and allowing for more than previously estimated tuition increases etc. It is a worst case scenario estimate. I hope to not go there!

lastly, from experience - what good is earning good money if you hate your job?

Try not to take this as me defending anesthesiology over vet med. I assure you I am still thoroughly confused (or I wouldn't be asking), but this is my perspective on the money issue. I am just the kind of person that gets more joy out of things non-work related. For example, I love the beach, and would be very unhappy if I didn't live near it. I want to be able to see the world, and I mean the whole world. I want ski trips around Christmas and European vacations during the summer. I don't know if I'd be happy if I couldn't do that. I want to be able to take my kids on vacations as well and do all the things my parents could never afford to do. And my parents! They will be needing my help. They can barely take care of themselves now let alone when they are old!

Oh and PS, human medicine internship/residency doesn't sound like a cakewalk, either... And I must just be missing part of the job description, but while I've heard in the past that anesthesiology pays well, I can't imagine what makes it an intellectually stimulating job.

Oh no, not expecting a cakewalk! I realize it will be a difficult experience and the residency pays poorly and I will be nearly 30 when I'm through. I've anticipated those things and they don't bother be so much. As far as your last statement I'm sure there are some anesthesiologists that would argue against that, and some that would agree. Either way intellectual stimulation isn't my priority, sounds bad, but it's true!

My advice is to get some experience in both fields.

I totally agree! I'm struggeling with getting vet experience right now but am looking into working at a hospital. I have seen volunteer positions, which I planning on saving for summer since I do need to work, but no paid entry level positions. Do you have any tips for getting a paid position? What job titles are entry level?

Oh and thank you for the link to the other thread. It was helpful. I, like one of the people in the thread, wish I had all the money in the world and could just do both!

This is terribly long, but I think that's all I had to add, and thanks again for the responses.

 

[david594]

It sounds like you at least understand what we are saying. And veterinary pathology is probably one of the best veterinary specialties if you would prefer to avoid general interaction with the public. I guess my other though for you would be that veterinary pathologists will tend to have the least interaction (at least with live animals) of any of the veterinary fields. The down side, compared to human pathology, is that you will spend just as many years in a residency after graduation to do nearly identical work to a human pathologist while making less money(with little animal interaction).

The big plus I guess would be if you want to do some veterinary side work in there. Volunteer/work for a small shelter one day a week doing spays and neuters to get your fix of animal interaction.

 

[aspiringDVM]

I can't imagine what makes it an intellectually stimulating job.

Keeping people/ animals alive. Tailoring meds and dosages to precisely suit the physiologic response and medical needs of the patient. Making the recovery (immediately post-op and later) as smooth as possible. Minimizing pain. Walking that fine line between too much and too little, too fast and too slow.
Lots of people argue that computers are the greatest modern innovation, but personally, I think anesthesia tops the list 😀.

 

[david594]

Keeping people/ animals alive. Tailoring meds and dosages to precisely suit the physiologic response and medical needs of the patient. Making the recovery (immediately post-op and later) as smooth as possible. Minimizing pain. Walking that fine line between too much and too little, too fast and too slow.
Lots of people argue that computers are the greatest modern innovation, but personally, I think anesthesia tops the list 😀.

Which is one of the awesome things about veterinary medicine. We get to see healthy patients, do surgery, and plan our own anesthesia protocols!

I hurt when I see an animal get ace pre-op, a shot of torb post op, and told to start their NSAID's the next day.

 

[Kat0303]

veterinary pathology is probably one of the best veterinary specialties if you would prefer to avoid general interaction with the public.

Exaaaaaaaaaactly. 😛 I'm almost certainly going into anatomic pathology, and for me, one of the perks is little to no client interaction. I think I am a people person, but I don't think I want to deal with the issues that come with working with clients in practice. So, to the OP, if you don't mind the idea of doing necropsies and you really like histology, maybe you would like anatomic pathology! And there is always clinical pathology too.

The down side, compared to human pathology, is that you will spend just as many years in a residency after graduation to do nearly identical work to a human pathologist while making less money(with little animal interaction).

I agree, I think about that sometimes... that human pathologists make like triple that vet pathologists do. For me though, I wouldn't take a million dollars a year to smell what comes from a dead human (ok, maybe a million...). It's no picnic coming from an animal, but I think the psychological effect of it being a human would be too much for me. Maybe people get used to it though?

 

[oNichole]

You guys have been super helpful. I'm leaning more toward medical school at this point. Who knows what it will be tomorrow though. One thing I love about the idea of anesthesiology is that if/when I decide to have children and/or have a husband with a decent salary I could work part time and still be making 2-3x what most people make working full time. Also I could always volunteer time and money to organizations that help animals. That way I could get some animal interaction and feel that I am making a difference in my own small way. And of course I will have tons of pets! 🙂

 

[BeagleOne]

Volunteer/work for a small shelter one day a week doing spays and neuters to get your fix of animal interaction.

I don't know about California specifically, but in most states it is illegal for anyone but a licensed veterinarian to do any kind of surgery, including things like suturing lacerations and extracting teeth. Cat neuters MAY be an exception in some states--in my state until just a couple of years ago anyone could legally do them. You could still get valuable experience volunteering at a shelter, though, and you'd be helping animals who are often overlooked by society in general and the veterinary profession in particular.

You could also talk to veterinarians in your area--associates, practice owners, lab animal vets, etc., and get a better idea of what each area entails. If you go into "regular" practice you had better either like people or at least be able to deal with them, because you will have to talk with clients every day and while a lot of them are wonderful there are also a lot of complete nightmares out there.

If you go into human radiology, you will be in one of the most highly-paid MD specialties and you will not have a lot of direct interaction with patients.

 

[Minnerbelle]

Hi oNichole,

If you were thinking you'd like to go into medicine but don't want to interact with patients, why not human pathology? I work with a neuropathology fellow, and she says she loves her patients because they never complain (i.e. they're dead!). You could be a different kind of pathologist that works with live patient samples too, but you would never have to meet the actual patient or their families. It's super intellectually stimulating. You have to be almost gifted to be good at it. You don't get called in for emergencies, and you're not on call (as far as I can tell). And relatively speaking, you'd be rolling in dough! Plus, you always get a technician to do the annoying part of the job like sectioning, mounting, staining, etc...

My lab works once in a while with a rodent pathologist too. He never has to do much of the lab work because many labs ask him to collaborate (more like a consult really). Since there aren't too many people who are experts on rodent pathology, labs across the nation ask him to figure out what's going on with their mouse models. Because of all of these high impact collaborations, his CV is apparently FULL of publications, and the only ones listed are in Science, Cell, and Nature.

Thought I'd throw it out there for ya. Good luck!

 

[david594]

I don't know about California specifically, but in most states it is illegal for anyone but a licensed veterinarian to do any kind of surgery, including things like suturing lacerations and extracting teeth. Cat neuters MAY be an exception in some states--in my state until just a couple of years ago anyone could legally do them. You could still get valuable experience volunteering at a shelter, though, and you'd be helping animals who are often overlooked by society in general and the veterinary profession in particular.

My comment on volunteering/working was for if she were to go the veterinary pathology route, but wanted a little more live animal interaction. As opposed to going into human pathology, not implying she could do those activities as a lay person.

 

[bunnity]

I'm sure it varies by hospital, but at my hospital the entry level positions were:

Housekeeping: self explanatory.

Transport: pushing wheelchairs / stretchers with patients from place to place. Usually this would be from their room to a testing center, so you would get to see all the different testing centers and places like dialysis.

Dietary: going around to patient rooms dropping off meal trays, picking them up, and distributing and picking up menus for the next meal. Every patient's favorite person 🙂

Pharmacy tech: in my hospital they would generally only take pre-pharm / pharm students but it could be different in others. This was mostly delivering meds from the pharmacy to the appropriate nursing station.

Cardiac tech: what I did. Not every hospital has them (mine was a huge, cardiac-heavy teaching hospital so they had a need for us), and the job really varies by hospital. At my hospital we ran the EKG and EKG stress machines, typed up reports, set up Holter and Event monitors, and did a lot of random paperwork and office work to keep the department running. At the neighboring hospital (not in our hospital system) they had cardiac techs that basically sat and watched heart monitors to make sure there were no changes or arrhythmias.

Phlebotomy tech: At my hospital they preferred people who had taken a class but that probably varies by hospital too. The class seems fairly straightforward and was offered at the county community college. Basically you go from room to room drawing blood. Every patient's least favorite person 🙁

Supply: You take medical supplies from the basement to stock the rooms on each unit. I think at my hospital they had central supply for non-sterile items and sterile supply for the OR, as two separate departments.

Heath Unit Coordinator aka secretary: For this they liked you to have customer service background. If you could get this job it would be very helpful / educational. Basically you have a desk at the nurse's station and you keep track of everything - where patients are, where charts are; you enter orders, you page the various technicians / doctors that need to come to the unit, you answer everyone's questions, you answer the phone.

Those are the main ones I can think of. There are plenty of other jobs - delivering laundry, working at the information desks, working in the gift shop, possibly working in / for the lab... you can always call human resources and ask for a list of openings if you're having trouble finding one.

 

[oNichole]

Wow bunnity thanks for such a detailed answer. I'll definitely be looking into some of those. Dietary sounds fun. 🙂 Phlebotomy does not, but it might be good for me...

 

[twelvetigers]

Is it sad that I would want to be a secretary *just* so I can page doctors overhead? Lol.

 

[chris03333]

This is why I think some of the doctors who use their time most efficiently (and, maybe as a side note also don't like people as much...?) deal directly with the clients themselves as little as possible, having their Techs do a lot of the History taking, background, and general info and simpler treatments in exams, and focusing their time on minimal time in the exam room and doing other treatments/surgeries.
🙂

Actually practicing medicine/surgery are the things that you go to school for and are the money generators. The DVM is the only one that can practice medicine and perform surgery, so if you are smart, you let the techs and receptionists do their jobs and you do yours as a DVM (especially with all the loans you have hanging over your head). I love working with people and could go on forever with every client, but I know that my techs and receptionists are very capable of their jobs and I trust them. Why not be more efficient?😉

 

[ilovebiology]

I just asked this question to this fine group of pre-vets/vet students about a week ago, which I think someone posted a link to it on here...anyways, I've been contemplating alot about D.O. vs. Vet so if you wanna talk more about your frustrations and why you keep bouncing back and forth you can PM me! 🙂

 

[sumstorm]

Actually practicing medicine/surgery are the things that you go to school for and are the money generators. The DVM is the only one that can practice medicine and perform surgery, so if you are smart, you let the techs and receptionists do their jobs and you do yours as a DVM (especially with all the loans you have hanging over your head). I love working with people and could go on forever with every client, but I know that my techs and receptionists are very capable of their jobs and I trust them. Why not be more efficient?😉

I was thinking the exact same thing! Part of the reason techs take history, etc, is that Ms. Jacobs 30 minute rambling can be condenced into a few sentences....and having the tech deal with the rambling costs the practice far less!

Something else with vet school and med school. Take a really good look at costs at different schools. It can be shocking that OOS costs + COL may be less that IS + living at home in another.

 

[johncronejr]

I have this for the OP. I am just now looking at the idea of vet school. I am a 43 year old non traditional student. I have had many successes and many failures in my life. Through all of this I have FINALLY learned that life is really about doing exactly what I want to do. It is an unfortunate byproduct that some fields require an expensive education. However, think about spending the next 20 years working at something you DON'T want to do. Think about waking every morning to head off to a job that does not fulfill you. How much is it worth to not go through that. Many people say life is too short to do something you don't like...I say life is too long. I plan on being around a while and I don't want to spend all those years trudging to a job that I don't enjoy, one that I don't feel like I am making a real difference. I have left a successful family business due to familial problems. I could have stayed for the money, but I was just unhappy, so at 43 I am starting over. I have labored over the investment, but ultimately, it is I who will have to face each day loving it, hating it, or merely just getting by. After al the years I have worked at good jobs and bad jobs, I would rather do exactly what I really WANT to do. Sure, I may have to pay off loans a little longer, but at least I will feel good about what I have chosen to do. That is the goal. I have tried to live by a quote that I coined...."We each ahve within us the greatest power of all; the power of choice" John Crone Jr 2001. I cannot control what circumstances life throws at me, but I ABSOLUTELY CAN control how I choose to react to those circumstances.

I wish you the best in your endeavors, but remember that the rest of your working life will hopefully be a long time. So do what you really WANT to do. Follow your passion.

 

[VeganChick]

at 43 I am starting over. I have labored over the investment, but ultimately, it is I who will have to face each day loving it, hating it, or merely just getting by. After al the years I have worked at good jobs and bad jobs, I would rather do exactly what I really WANT to do.

Congratulations John! I am 39 and about to enter vet school...it is NEVER too late! Good luck to you!