3
385835
The hazing induced deaths of Harry Lew and Danny Chen have me thinking. How prevalent is hazing and racism in the military?
- Joined
- May 21, 2009
- Messages
- 94
- Reaction score
- 1
Never had a problem as an enlisted person, worst thing was just some jokes in bad taste (didn't think there was anything malicious behind it). I would imagine this would be even less tolerated among officers.
- Joined
- Mar 29, 2011
- Messages
- 173
- Reaction score
- 3
Sure someone may give you a hard time when you screw up big, but I've never seen hazing in my 10 years in. Besides, being a dentist is worlds apart from Harry Lew and Danny Chen.
Last edited:
As a minority and female, this makes me want to reconsider the whole military. I've been reassured several times that those two cases were atypical of military fashion. everyone i have talked to say they don't ever see or witness anything like that. umm....those two cases happened in 2011. this is pathetic. we are well into the 21st century!
- Joined
- Dec 4, 2006
- Messages
- 1,730
- Reaction score
- 815
As an officer this is something you really won't have to be concerned with with respect for yourself. As an officer it's something that you may have to address if it involves sailors in your command.
- Joined
- Apr 5, 2009
- Messages
- 465
- Reaction score
- 5
Hazing is officially punishable in the military. The military is not perfect, racism exists, as it does in the real world, but usually on an individual basis.
Apparently not. they were exonerated or are now being charged with less severe charges!
- Joined
- Dec 4, 2006
- Messages
- 1,730
- Reaction score
- 815
Has it occurred to you that the more severe charges may not be warranted?
3
385835
And by whose judgement were the more severe charges not warranted? Yours?
She obviously feels differently. Neither of you were there so your opinions, although different, are on an even level.
it definitely exists, even in the dental corps.
there are some words and quotes used by my first oic (clinic boss) in front of me, colleagues, at clinic meetings:
"i don't know why these wetbacks can't be prevented from coming across the border"
"don't vote for obama, he has links to saudi arabian terrorists"
"these instruments made in pakistan suck. only two good things come out of that country, 7-11 workers and cab drivers"
"asian names sound like silverware thrown down the street"
we complained but nothing was done b/c leadership was weak and this person was an o6 colonel.
racism is definitely there, but i wouldn't worry about getting hazed as a dental officer.
this individual was the exception not the rule. i had a great time while i was in.
the reason i write i this is b/c i'm a minority and the people saying there isn't any on this board are probably not.
Neither of us were present in the former two cases, so no I (as you) do not know if those severe charges were appropriately warranted or not. I feel that such accusations/charges would not have been made without substantial evidence, but the fact that some were convicted as charged, exonerated, or charged with less severe charges than originally charged highlights the military is not perfect. To call someone out for the wrong thing is pretty serious when it is for such severe charges. I was agreeing with the statement that "the military is not perfect," which the former and presence of hazing supports. I'm not trying to start an argument.
It's sad when anyone dies, especially as a result of hazing. It's just makes me concerned about my well being when in an environment conducive to violence...well military dentists aren't on the forefront, but they treat those who are and such things happened recently.
It's sad when anyone dies, especially as a result of hazing. It's just makes me concerned about my well being when in an environment conducive to violence...well military dentists aren't on the forefront, but they treat those who are and such things happened recently.
- Joined
- Apr 5, 2009
- Messages
- 465
- Reaction score
- 5
If your own DENTAC chain of command refused to do anything, and the circumstances were such that it severely eroded morale and the clinic to effect treatment, the next step would be to go to the Adjutant General to file a complaint.
That of course opens a whole new can of worms when outside eyes are looking in.
we were all too scared and ignorant about what we could do. if it were to happen now, i know what to do. the question is would it get anywhere.
- Joined
- Apr 5, 2009
- Messages
- 465
- Reaction score
- 5
IMHO, military courts are more effective and efficient than civilian courts because they are largely free of the media circus that comes with the civilian courts. I've stopped following the case, but if the accused were found guilty of lesser charges, the evidence was substantial but not overwhelming.
Who's to know what really went out there? In my experience those who I saw bullied usually were people (through their own personality quirks and traits) bring negative attention to themselves.
Long story short, these unfortunate incidents are exceptions and not the rule in the military.
Who's to know what really went out there? In my experience those who I saw bullied usually were people (through their own personality quirks and traits) bring negative attention to themselves.
Long story short, these unfortunate incidents are exceptions and not the rule in the military.
- Joined
- Dec 4, 2006
- Messages
- 1,730
- Reaction score
- 815
#1, I didn't say they weren't, nor do I have an opinion on these cases.
#2, Get into dental school first before you go around 'correcting' people.
- Joined
- Apr 5, 2009
- Messages
- 465
- Reaction score
- 5
Well, no the courts martial's judgement.
I finally got around to reading the details on the case.
1) Jacob Jacoby, the first Marine on trial did a plea agreement down to lesser charge of assault. He punched Lew in the back of the head hours before Lew shot himself. If you feel that this was an injustice, blame the prosecution for offering the plea deal. I can almost certainly guarantee that the prosecution did not feel they had a strong enough case for hazing. If they did, why did they offer the plea deal?
http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Marine-Sentenced--in-Harry-Lew-Hazing-Case-138410254.html
2) The second marine, SGT Benjamin Johns was acquitted. I believe he was the squad leader. As punishment for falling asleep on guard duty, he ordered Lew to dig a foxhole, which is a lawful and appropriate punishment for falling asleep on duty.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/military/story/2012-02-09/military-hazing-harry-lew/53031492/1
3) The third marine on trial was LCPL Carlos Orozco. He was also acquitted. He was seen forcing Lew to do physical training with sandbags. He was also seen pouring sand over Lew after the bag broke. While that may have been much, I personally don't see how that is demeaning, degrading or humiliating.
http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/new...azing-trial-lance-corporal-not-guilty-022512/
So let me pull all this together. In the military, we have a protocol for punishing a solider who breaks the rules:
1) Corrective action (on the local, small unit level): This would entail "Additional duty" as punishment (ie digging a foxhole, burning the latrine barrels, peeling potatoes) which is the equivalent of Bart Simpson writing on the chalkboard after class. Additional physical training (ie pushups) would also be appropriate.
2) An Article 15 reprimand: This is a formal, written statement stating the infraction and punishment. Punishment at this level usually involves revoking a pass or privileges. This can affect promotion. This can be handled at the unit level and this would have probably been the next step for Lew and in all actuality probably should have happened already.
3) If the violation is a serious UCMJ infraction, a full investigation (Article 32) is ordered (ie the murders of the 17 civilians in Afghanistan).
Lew fell asleep not once, but *four* times while on watch. I hope everyone realizes the consequence of this... enemies watching could have exploited that and potentially wiped out the entire base. If Lew were an employee at Best Buy, and he fell asleep in the storeroom, he'd be fired, and everyone moves on. There are exponentially far more severe consequences in Lew's position as a Marine. Would you want this guy watching your back?
Having said that, it is incumbent on his chain of command to make sure it didn't happen again. First "corrective action" would be additional duty as punishment (ie digging another foxhole). The next step would be administrative (involving paperwork) .
Fact of the matter is the whole case was probably corrective action being contained within a unit, that got slightly extreme with a Marine who just wasn't physically and mentally equipped to be deployed. From the quick reading I did, I'm not surprised the worst charges were dropped and that the other two Marines were acquitted. I do feel sorry for the fact that the young Marine thought suicide was the only way out.
I'm taking the time to point all this out because those outside of the military probably don't understand how hazing, punishment and consequences work in the military. As someone in a position of authority/command, I have to make sure that the NCO in charge of my section punishes soldiers appropriately. In a dental unit, "additional duty" would be taking inventory, cleaning, and basically menial tasks- none of which Lew went through. Hope this helps people to understand.
- Joined
- Mar 29, 2011
- Messages
- 173
- Reaction score
- 3
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2008
- Messages
- 64
- Reaction score
- 15
In the civilian world you will be "hazed" also. Its called a bitchy patient who threatens a frivolous lawsuit. No one is immune to maltreatment. You must stick up for yourself and hold other accountable for their actions no matter what sector of society you are in.
3
385835
Well obviously its the courts judgement. And she has right to disagree with the court's judgement in the same way that you have a right to agree with it.
3
385835
Last edited by a moderator:
- Joined
- May 21, 2009
- Messages
- 94
- Reaction score
- 1
As a minority who served in the military, let me say please do not let an isolated incident of hazing detract you from joining. It was a great experience for me and there are obviously significant financial benefits from signing on to HPSP.
There are plenty of reasons to not join the military (separation from friends and family, some limits on personal freedoms, years of your life dedicated to a cause not directly your own). If you decide not to join the military, please let it be because of these more legitimate concerns instead of hazing.
There are plenty of reasons to not join the military (separation from friends and family, some limits on personal freedoms, years of your life dedicated to a cause not directly your own). If you decide not to join the military, please let it be because of these more legitimate concerns instead of hazing.
Getting defensive =/= calling you out because you spoke out of your rear end.
3
385835
I need to be in dental school to have an opinion about hazing? I don't see the connection.
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2008
- Messages
- 64
- Reaction score
- 15
This is a dental forum...
- Joined
- Sep 25, 2009
- Messages
- 196
- Reaction score
- 36
Don't join the military, as you will always be working under a white man who will not recognize any of your hard work. On the contrary, there will be lazy white people who get promoted left and right.
As a minority, you will have to work 2-3 times harder than the white counter part to get recognized. This is the TRUTH.
As a minority, you will have to work 2-3 times harder than the white counter part to get recognized. This is the TRUTH.
- Joined
- Dec 4, 2006
- Messages
- 1,730
- Reaction score
- 815
My immediate supervisor is Hispanic, my clinic director is Hispanic and my CO is a woman.
Edit: Forgot, my OIC is also Hispanic.
- Joined
- Apr 5, 2009
- Messages
- 465
- Reaction score
- 5
Thankfully for the last two marines, their fate wasn't dependent on her opinion.
