Help choosing a PsyD program

[Kathy146]

Does anyone have an opinion on which PsyD program and University reputation is the best? I have to stay in the LA area and these are my options. I’m trying to decide between Azusa Pacific University, Cal Lutheran University, Fuller Seminary, and Loma Linda University

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[Mama Bear]

Pick the one that costs the most. You get what you pay for.

Nah, I kid. Education is not a pair of designer jeans. Choose a graduate program that offer a strong funding package. You may find that strong funding correlates with strong training and reputation.

 

[psych.meout]

Pick the one that costs the most. You get what you pay for.

Nah, I kid. Education is not a pair of designer jeans. Choose a graduate program that offer a strong funding package. You may find that strong funding correlates with strong training and reputation.

Reading this was an emotional rollercoaster.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Anecdotal: Of those listed, I know a small number of folks who went to Fuller and have done well. I don't have direct experience that I can recall with any of the others. You should certainly check the admissions and outcome statistics for each program (e.g., accredited internship match rate, licensure rate, graduate time and rate, cost of attendance).

Being restricted to LA is going to make things very difficult. Most folks end up moving for internship, and often again for fellowship (if they choose to do one). Graduate training in psychology, for most quality programs, is also difficult to get into to begin with, and you want to be sure the program you choose actually offers training that meets your career interests and goals (not all programs will).

I would encourage you to also consider Ph.D. programs in addition to Psy.D. Most folks who complete Ph.D. programs go on to clinical careers. This could increase the number of schools to which you're able to apply.

 

[Peacemaker36]

I have been wondering if it would make sense to have a new section of SDN called "Practitioner Scholar,"
to differentiate it from clinical science and scientist-practitioner programs.

There is a strong consensus on SDN that applicants should avoid programs with high tuition, low match
rates, poor EPPP scores, etc. And I would put myself squarely in that camp.

On the other hand, the last time I checked, something like half of grad students are attending programs
that might be classified as bad actors in the psychology scene. Love it or hate, these programs are not
going away.

Is SDN doing applicants and grad students a service by treating these programs as persona non grata?
What are people who end up at the programs supposed to do for advice? Do they have an online community
where they can discuss issues such as how to be competitive for practica, how to match, how to survive on
student loans, etc?

If SDN Psychology had a new carve out, adding "Practitioner Scholar" aside "(PhD/Psyd)," I think this might
help current students in professional schools, and it also might persuade lurkers to avoid these schools.

Just a thought.

 

[cara susanna]

I have been wondering if it would make sense to have a new section of SDN called "Practitioner Scholar,"
to differentiate it from clinical science and scientist-practitioner programs.

There is a strong consensus on SDN that applicants should avoid programs with high tuition, low match
rates, poor EPPP scores, etc. And I would put myself squarely in that camp.

On the other hand, the last time I checked, something like half of grad students are attending programs
that might be classified as bad actors in the psychology scene. Love it or hate, these programs are not
going away.

Is SDN doing applicants and grad students a service by treating these programs as persona non grata?
What are people who end up at the programs supposed to do for advice? Do they have an online community
where they can discuss issues such as how to be competitive for practica, how to match, how to survive on
student loans, etc?

If SDN Psychology had a new carve out, adding "Practitioner Scholar" aside "(PhD/Psyd)," I think this might
help current students in professional schools, and it also might persuade lurkers to avoid these schools.

Just a thought.

Generally people from those programs still post and people are civil when they respond. At least, that's been my experience. I guess there may be some people who aren't posting because they're worried about the reactions they'll get. I'm not sure if a separate board would really fix that since you can't really ensure only certain posters are allowed on it. Furthermore, I worry that a separate board with that designation would further perpetuate the false idea that you can't be a clinician if you attend a more research-oriented program.

 

[psych.meout]

Is SDN doing applicants and grad students a service by treating these programs as persona non grata?

If you think professional schools get treated poorly here, go to the MD or DO forums and look at how Caribbean med schools are treated.

What are people who end up at the programs supposed to do for advice? Do they have an online community where they can discuss issues such as how to be competitive for practica, how to match, how to survive on student loans, etc?

I don't know that there would be any differences in these domains for students from those programs vs. those from quality programs. Do internship sites have different criteria for applicants from those programs or is it that students from those programs are just generally less competitive for many reasons (e.g., insufficient research training, poor mentoring).

As for surviving on loans, we periodically have threads about other income sources (e..g, doing assessments on the side) that would be applicable to everyone, not just those is mountains of debt.

If SDN Psychology had a new carve out, adding "Practitioner Scholar" aside "(PhD/Psyd)," I think this might
help current students in professional schools, and it also might persuade lurkers to avoid these schools.

I'm not sure what you mean. Wouldn't creating a new subforum dedicated to helping students from professional schools just reinforce that they are viable options and therefore persuade people to attend them? I'm not saying anyone should be rude or cruel to students from these programs (and I disagree with people complaining about existing civility issues with the current forum), but I just don't see how doing this would "persuade lurkers to avoid these schools."

 

[Peacemaker36]

Yes, what I am saying is that professional schools actually are viable options, as evidenced by the fact that they exist and turn out half of all new psychologists. I don't approve of them but they exist. So how can SDN do a better job of helping all of the students that attend these programs?

I agree with the policy of steering people away from these schools but I think more could be done to help the poor unfortunate souls who choose unwisely. Even if the advice turns out to be the same, maybe a separate board would facilitate conversations that aren't happening here.

Anyway, just a thought.

 

[psych.meout]

Yes, what I am saying is that professional schools actually are viable options, as evidenced by the fact that they exist and turn out half of all new psychologists. I don't approve of them but they exist. So how can SDN do a better job of helping all of the students that attend these programs?

I agree with the policy of steering people away from these schools but I think more could be done to help the poor unfortunate souls who choose unwisely. Even if the advice turns out to be the same, maybe a separate board would facilitate conversations that aren't happening here.

Anyway, just a thought.

I'd argue that they aren't viable if they have high attrition rates, relatively low internship match rates, and put their students in insurmountable debt. If your program is so expensive that they rely on PSLF and other loan forgiveness programs to get out from under the debt, then it is isn't viable.

 

[Sanman]

Yes, what I am saying is that professional schools actually are viable options, as evidenced by the fact that they exist and turn out half of all new psychologists. I don't approve of them but they exist. So how can SDN do a better job of helping all of the students that attend these programs?

I agree with the policy of steering people away from these schools but I think more could be done to help the poor unfortunate souls who choose unwisely. Even if the advice turns out to be the same, maybe a separate board would facilitate conversations that aren't happening here.

Anyway, just a thought.

This is getting so off topic, but define viable. I know a grad of one of the bigger schools that had trouble renting a one bedroom apartment and affording a Hyundai Elantra payment after student loans as a fully licensed clinician. Does viable mean not upside down on student loan payments vs salary, making $5k than a social worker at a job, or having a reasonable lifestyle and savings for someone with 10 years of graduate education?

 

[Peacemaker36]

By this logic, would you say that people who work in the service industry making minimum wage jobs do not have viable jobs?

Being poor is not something I would wish on anyone. Nevertheless, being a psychologist with 6 figure debt is a thing that happens. Frequently.
So how is it not viable?

 

[psych.meout]

By this logic, would you say that people who work in the service industry making minimum wage jobs do not have viable jobs?

No, they aren't not viable, which is why so many of them require public assistance programs to merely survive. Are you unfamiliar with the term "living wage?" It means that wages below those, especially the minimum wage, are not sufficient.

Being poor is not something I would wish on anyone. Nevertheless, being a psychologist with 6 figure debt is a thing that happens. Frequently.
So how is it not viable?

It's not viable, because either their financial future is dependent on public loan forgiveness programs (e.g., PSLF) or their training, clinical practice, and earnings are little more than an advanced master's-level provider, but with many times more debt.

 

[Seven_Costanza]

By this logic, would you say that people who work in the service industry making minimum wage jobs do not have viable jobs?

Being poor is not something I would wish on anyone. Nevertheless, being a psychologist with 6 figure debt is a thing that happens. Frequently.
So how is it not viable?

How are you operationalizing “viable”?

 

[Sanman]

By this logic, would you say that people who work in the service industry making minimum wage jobs do not have viable jobs?

Being poor is not something I would wish on anyone. Nevertheless, being a psychologist with 6 figure debt is a thing that happens. Frequently.
So how is it not viable?

Someone making minimum wage, as of this year, cannot afford a two bedroom apartment in any state in this country based on average rents. They are statistically likely to have a negative net worth. They often quit and go on welfare because transportation and child care costs exceed what they are being paid. No, they don't have viable jobs. I say this as someone that worked multiple lower paying jobs during college and grad school with older co-workers that needed the money to live.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Mod Note: Hi all, let's try to steer the discussion back to the specific topic at-hand (i.e., from the original post). Additional topics can be broken out into separate threads as needed/requested. Thanks.

 

[Justanothergrad]

@Kathy146 I would not encourage you to attend any of those for the reasons highlighted above. That said, what are your career goals and rationale for selecting those programs? This may enable better advice.





On the siderail I shouldn't go on... but will

By this logic, would you say that people who work in the service industry making minimum wage jobs do not have viable jobs?

Being poor is not something I would wish on anyone. Nevertheless, being a psychologist with 6 figure debt is a thing that happens. Frequently.
So how is it not viable?

I would say that they do not have viable careers. An financial advisor would never advise someone to enter a minimum wage job even though many people work those jobs (or jobs well below reasonable living wages). I won't advise someone to do the similar thing here (to extend your analogy).

 

[Peacemaker36]

We are all on the same page in terms of steering people away from careers that will result in poverty. Obviously!

I am saying that despite good advice, and perhaps due to a lack of common sense, many people DO choose the dangerous path.
And that's why I am operationalizing it as viable. It's not like people graduate from a freestanding professional school and then
vanish in a cloud of inky black smoke, never to be heard from again.

But I hear your implicit message, which is: no need to create a subthread.

Thanks for entertaining my idea.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Taking on massive debt is a big issue. Compound interest is going to bury students coming out. Interest starts compounding from day 1, which was a change that occurred a number of years ago that really has negative consequences for large loans. It used to be the first $8500(?) was subsidized, but that was eliminated. Add in higher interest rates, increased tuition (read: out of control tuition increases in Higher Ed) and now repayment becomes untenable for anyone remotely around the median salary.

 

[psych.meout]

Taking on massive debt is a big issue. Compound interest is going to bury students coming out. Interest starts compounding from day 1, which was a change that occurred a number of years ago that really has negative consequences for large loans. It used to be the first $8500(?) was subsidized, but that was eliminated. Add in higher interest rates, increased tuition (read: out of control tuition increases in Higher Ed) and now repayment becomes untenable for anyone remotely around the median salary.

OP this is very important and insightful information. You should pick whichever program is cheapest after factoring in funding.

 

[psychlife19]

Taking on massive debt is a big issue. Compound interest is going to bury students coming out. Interest starts compounding from day 1, which was a change that occurred a number of years ago that really has negative consequences for large loans. It used to be the first $8500(?) was subsidized, but that was eliminated. Add in higher interest rates, increased tuition (read: out of control tuition increases in Higher Ed) and now repayment becomes untenable for anyone remotely around the median salary.

Does anyone know why the started compound interest right away for graduate school?

 

[StellaB]

Does anyone know why the started compound interest right away for graduate school?

Yes, this started in 2012 so that the money that used to be used to subsidize the interest (i.e. the gov't used to pay your interest for you while you were in school) could be freed up to provide more grant $ for low-income undergraduates. The idea was that grad students typically go on to make big bucks, and don't need as much of a handout as people who might otherwise struggle to get a 4-year degree.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Yes, this started in 2012 so that the money that used to be used to subsidize the interest (i.e. the gov't used to pay your interest for you while you were in school) could be freed up to provide more grant $ for low-income undergraduates. The idea was that grad students typically go on to make big bucks, and don't need as much of a handout as people who might otherwise struggle to get a 4-year degree.

....and then many universities and many predatory programs decided to increase tuition even more, though the programs with bad to no funding just became even more untenable. "Cheap" dollars in the form of student loans was a major catalyst for the greed that is driving the out of control education costs. It's multi-factorial....and only getting worse.

 

[hum1]

I do not know what was OP's decision, and I know this is an old post.

Just wanted to say that I completed the PsyD in one of the aforementioned schools and the quality of education and training was very atrocious. I did not quit after the end of the first year because I did not wanted to lose the tuition fee that I had already paid. It was unbelievable bad.

 

[EnPsychlopedia]

I do not know what was OP's decision, and I know this is an old post.

Just wanted to say that I completed the PsyD in one of the aforementioned schools and the quality of education and training was very atrocious. I did not quit after the end of the first year because I did not wanted to lose the tuition fee that I had already paid. It was unbelievable bad.

Sorry, but I am morbidly interested, and as someone who has a passion for career mentoring I cannot help but wonder if you'd mind expanding on what was so atrocious so that folks entertaining the idea of attending certain programs can have a bit of an idea of what they will get. No worries if you don't want to go into more detail--just genuinely curious and think it could help lots of folks.

 

[NeuroPsychosis]

LLU probably offers the best financial aid out of them. They have a primary care psychology track where you can win something close to a full ride. But don't confuse that with full funding. There are a couple of fully funded PsyDs out there that you can consider if you want to break the barriers of LA. Baylor, Rutgers, Georgia southern, and JMU are fully funded PsyDs. In terms of LA, LLU and Pepperdine are ones that sound popular to me being an LA native myself and often run into excellent trainees/ graduates from these programs- but yeah they come with horrific price tags.

 

[hum1]

Sorry, but I am morbidly interested, and as someone who has a passion for career mentoring I cannot help but wonder if you'd mind expanding on what was so atrocious so that folks entertaining the idea of attending certain programs can have a bit of an idea of what they will get. No worries if you don't want to go into more detail--just genuinely curious and think it could help lots of folks.

I am aware that I might be raising concerns about two programs that might be good by not identifying the school that I attended. Perhaps it would be good for prospective students to be as informed as possible before enrolling in any academic psychology program.

 

[smalltownpsych]

I am not as averse to debt as many in this board and I racked up quite a bit going to a PsyD program. That being said, look at the match rates, licensure rates, and EPPP pass rates. I would also lean toward university based as opposed to professional schools. If you are going to pay a lot, you don’t want to not be able to get through the hoops to make even close to enough money to justify the investment in time and money.

 

[hum1]

I am not as averse to debt as many in this board and I racked up quite a bit going to a PsyD program. That being said, look at the match rates, licensure rates, and EPPP pass rates. I would also lean toward university based as opposed to professional schools. If you are going to pay a lot, you don’t want to not be able to get through the hoops to make even close to enough money to justify the investment in time and money.

Yes, and beyond those instrumental/result metrics I would add to inquire about the quality of teaching, availability of staff, tolerance to be interested in other schools of psychology/psychotherapy than not the dominant staff views, overall environment, etc. so talking with current and past students who can be as honest as possible would be a good idea too

 

[Peacemaker36]

Hum1, are you currently licensed and practicing clinical psychology? I imagine you regret your decision to attend the program, and to let sunk costs keep you enrolled for the duration of the program. But you said that you finished. Are you now a clinical psychologist?

 

[hum1]

Hum1, are you currently licensed and practicing clinical psychology? I imagine you regret your decision to attend the program, and to let sunk costs keep you enrolled for the duration of the program. But you said that you finished. Are you now a clinical psychologist?

Yes, I finished the program and am now a licensed clinical psychologist.

 

[Peacemaker36]

Congratulations. I am sorry your training was substandard and that you were/are unhappy with it. Also sorry if you have lots of debt. But glad to hear that you survived. No one's training is perfect, and we all have to keep learning in this profession. If you want, you can get additional supervision/training. Hopefully you go on to have a long career doing something you love!

I would call your experience viable: went to school to become a licensed clinical psychologist, became one.