Help, I'm in trouble.

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I'm not sure the privileges extend between the right people here. If I were the med school, wouldn't bet my insurance policy that it couldn't be gotten into court.

I imagine you're right. And, this is why the 'case was closed'.


Might be intersting, however, to see where our poor friend will find a residency match; i.e. the med school will take care of LORs for this kid.

 

[OSUdoc08]

In principal I agree that Doctors need to be held to a higher standard than Joe average citizen when it comes to drug use, as they are entrusted with making life and death decisions for others.

That said, we don't know much about PoorMD other than that he did a line of coke recently. That might not be the smartest move--for a lot of reasons--but I hardly think that qualifies, in and of itself, as "abuse". And I have known quite a few people in my life who used drugs--legal or otherwise--on a more than "I tried it once in college" basis and yet still remain functional, decent people. The idea that any use of any illegal drug qualifies as "abuse" is one of the pillars of the horses**t arguments the government has rammed down the throats of the American people for the last several decades in its attempt to convince us that its paternalistic, obtrusive, "war on drugs" is justified.

Lastly, I would just ask how many of us haven't, at some point in our lives, done something stupid that could have blown up in our face and cost us a medical career? I'm not condoning PoorMD's behavior or making any statements about his particular situation, because I don't know him. I'm just saying that in principal I believe in second (and somtimes third and fourth) chances.

Drug Abuse = use of a drug in a manner which is harmful to the user.

Abuse it was.

Would you go to a physician who used heroin 3 or 4 times in medical school? What about a physician who smoked crack 3 or 4 times during residency?

Physicians shouldn't get all of those chances. They know better. You screw up --> it's your fault.

 

[Pemulis]

Some would argue that posting multiple threads relating to potential consequences of illegal drug use (the previous time being criminal), and the fact that the OP claims he ended up needing medical attention this time, suggests a problem more serious than those folks you mention who remain functional. The OP is going into a high pressure profession, and high pressure professionals often tend to be at higher risk of substance abuses than the average 9 to 5'er. The OP is also going into a field where he will be administering medications, and making life or death decisions on others. And as mentioned in prior threads, a number of programs are now beginning to implement drug testing. Based on that which he has shared, it appears he may already be at or past his "fourth chance". Time to take this as a wakeup call and shape up.

I agree with all of your points. As I said in my post, doctors do need to be held to a higher standard than others. My post wasn't really about PoorMD per se, but rather about the tendency of some on this board to 1) see any type of drug use as a serious problem and 2) have little tolerance for any type of screw up by anybody. Whether or not PoorMD does in fact have a problem, or whether or not he has in fact screwed up one too many times are not questions that I am attempting to address. Those are both judgement calls and without actually knowing him, I'm going to refrain from entering that debate, even though some of his previous posts may be troubling.

Drug Abuse = use of a drug in a manner which is harmful to the user.

Abuse it was.

Would you go to a physician who used heroin 3 or 4 times in medical school? What about a physician who smoked crack 3 or 4 times during residency?

Physicians shouldn't get all of those chances. They know better. You screw up --> it's your fault.

I think coke is a stupid, f-d up drug, but I have known people who do it on a recreational basis (say one weekend every few months) who have not spiralled out of control and ended up a homeless junkie in a gutter somewhere. I can't say the same about heroin or crack--the only people I've met who used those were total addicts, although I suppose it's possible that there are some recreational users out there.

Would I go to a Doctor who used coke three or four times while in med school? Assuming that it was well in their past and that they were otherwise qualified, yes I would.

A lot of people do a lot of stupid stuff in their early 20's. Most of them grow out of it. I emphasize again that this is meant as a general observation, and may or may not pertain to the OP's situation.

 

[OSUdoc08]

I agree with all of your points. As I said in my post, doctors do need to be held to a higher standard than others. My post wasn't really about PoorMD per se, but rather about the tendency of some on this board to 1) see any type of drug use as a serious problem and 2) have little tolerance for any type of screw up by anybody. Whether or not PoorMD does in fact have a problem, or whether or not he has in fact screwed up one too many times are not questions that I am attempting to address. Those are both judgement calls and without actually knowing him, I'm going to refrain from entering that debate, even though some of his previous posts may be troubling.



I think coke is a stupid, f-d up drug, but I have known people who do it on a recreational basis (say one weekend every few months) who have not spiralled out of control and ended up a homeless junkie in a gutter somewhere. I can't say the same about heroin or crack--the only people I've met who used those were total addicts, although I suppose it's possible that there are some recreational users out there.

Would I go to a Doctor who used coke three or four times while in med school? Assuming that it was well in their past and that they were otherwise qualified, yes I would.

A lot of people do a lot of stupid stuff in their early 20's. Most of them grow out of it. I emphasize again that this is meant as a general observation, and may or may not pertain to the OP's situation.

I sure as hell wouldn't. "One for you....two for me.....three for you....four for me...."

I wouldn't want a physician to be high while he's doing procedures. Would you? If he's done it before, he's more likely to do it again than someone who's always been clean.

 

[Pemulis]

I sure as hell wouldn't. "One for you....two for me.....three for you....four for me...."

I wouldn't want a physician to be high while he's doing procedures. Would you? If he's done it before, he's more likely to do it again than someone who's always been clean.

Of course I wouldn't want my doc to be high while doing procedures, or anything else near me! But do you really mean to tell me that there aren't, for example, some excellent doctors who right now are in their forties, have been practicing for many years, and do their job very well, who decades ago, as a student, tried drugs a few times?

 

[OSUdoc08]

Of course I wouldn't want my doc to be high while doing procedures, or anything else near me! But do you really mean to tell me that there aren't, for example, some excellent doctors who right now are in their forties, have been practicing for many years, and do their job very well, who decades ago, as a student, tried drugs a few times?

You're right.

However, people who have a history of drug abuse in the past are MUCH MORE LIKELY to abuse drugs in the future that those who have NEVER used drugs.

 

[Law2Doc]

I wouldn't want a physician to be high while he's doing procedures. Would you? If he's done it before, he's more likely to do it again than someone who's always been clean.

At least on coke there's no danger he would nod off during a lengthy procedure. He would probably want to do his 80 hour work week in one straight shot.

 

[histrionic md]

Folks! This wasn't the first time he's been involved in drug use while in med school. He "tokes 3 to 4 times a week" according to an earlier post, and has consistently talked about drug use throughout the course of the year. Look up the history here, it's a reapeated pattern.

I recently heard a young girl (early 20's) speaking about her recovery from alcoholism and she said that she watched other people drink responsibly and thought to herself, "Man I wish I could drink successfully." Looking back on this, she says she knew only an alcoholic would wish to be able to get drunk in a civilized manner. I think our "Poor" friend here is an example of the same principle. The only people who fantasize about drugs and try to figure out how to fit them in their professional lives are people with problems, and when "use" causes impairment in your daily life and doings, then it becomes "abuse."

A lot of kids blow. They grow out of it and clean up so they can pass a drug test to get a job.

 

[Psycho Doctor]

Go to dispay modes at the top of the thread, and you can try it. No one but Psycho Doc does, though.

oh give me a break. i don't use it now either but i used to for as long time. That was the only kind of boards i liked b/c you could actually carry on a conversation with someone that made sense. However no one here seems to care to carry on an intelligible conversation so it's pointless.

Anyway, it's like a tree where everything pertaining to one conversation follows that conversation. A different conversation is displayed on a different branch. Therefore all related conversations and response are grouped together. it actually makes a lot of sense.

 

[Law2Doc]

However no one here seems to care to carry on an intelligible conversation so it's pointless.

The conversations are here, but it's more of a group approach. Much like a chat room that moves incredibly slowly. It's all good. 🙂

 

[Psycho Doctor]

Folks! This wasn't the first time he's been involved in drug use while in med school. He "tokes 3 to 4 times a week" according to an earlier post, and has consistently talked about drug use throughout the course of the year. Look up the history here, it's a reapeated pattern.

I recently heard a young girl (early 20's) speaking about her recovery from alcoholism and she said that she watched other people drink responsibly and thought to herself, "Man I wish I could drink successfully." Looking back on this, she says she knew only an alcoholic would wish to be able to get drunk in a civilized manner. I think our "Poor" friend here is an example of the same principle. The only people who fantasize about drugs and try to figure out how to fit them in their professional lives are people with problems, and when "use" causes impairment in your daily life and doings, then it becomes "abuse."

A lot of kids blow. They grow out of it and clean up so they can pass a drug test to get a job.

great response 👍

 

[Psycho Doctor]

The conversations are here, but it's more of a group approach. Much like a chat room that moves incredibly slowly. It's all good. 🙂

whatever. chat rooms are impossible to follow; therefore I rarely ever attend one.

i have yet to see someone respond to 8 conversations all in one post, which you (and others) seem to imply I need to do.

 

[Pemulis]

You're right.

However, people who have a history of drug abuse in the past are MUCH MORE LIKELY to abuse drugs in the future that those who have NEVER used drugs.

I agree with you on that point.

I'm just trying to point out that by conservative estimates, something like 80 million Americans have tried drugs at some point in their lives. Even if we eliminate the people in that group who have only tried marijuana, that still leaves a heck of a lot of people out there with at least some drug history. It's important to remember that the vast majority of these folks tried drugs once or a few times (or maybe even used recreationally for a period of several years) and then stopped. Only a small subset went on to become addicts. This point is lost in the propaganda of the drug war, because to sell the drug war, the impression that most drug use is irreparably harmful has to be created. This is unfortunate, because I absolutely agree that there are some VERY serious dangers to drug use and I think that the myths of the drug war make it difficult to address these dangers honestly and effectively.

 

[Law2Doc]

i have yet to see someone respond to 8 conversations all in one post, which you (and others) seem to imply I do.

No, I think the complaint was successive posts, one after another, such that its a string of Psycho Doc posts spanning much of a page. Some people would love it if you could contain responses within the confines of one post. I personally don't care - do what you want. But that was the issue raised.

 

[Blake]

Would you go to a physician who used heroin 3 or 4 times in medical school? What about a physician who smoked crack 3 or 4 times during residency?

If he was great at his job, yes. An interventional cards attending here had a serious coke problem during his residency. He's clean now and considered as THE cardiologist in the hospital.

 

[OSUdoc08]

If he was great at his job, yes. An interventional cards attending here had a serious coke problem during his residency. He's clean now and considered as THE cardiologist in the hospital.

What med does he use for symptomatic bradycardia?

 

[Blade28]

But do you really mean to tell me that there aren't, for example, some excellent doctors who right now are in their forties, have been practicing for many years, and do their job very well, who decades ago, as a student, tried drugs a few times?

Like Halsted throughout his career? 🙂

 

[Psycho Doctor]

No, I think the complaint was successive posts, one after another, such that its a string of Psycho Doc posts spanning much of a page. Some people would love it if you could contain responses within the confines of one post. I personally don't care - do what you want. But that was the issue raised.

yes, i understand. but i'm not going to make 8 unrelated responses to 8 different people in one post; it's insane and pointless. It also takes at least 16 copy and paste and edit key strokes, which i'm not going to do. I do go back and edit related responses and put them together but it's stupid to put unrelated responses all in one post. I don't see why some people can't figure that out. If they don't like it, they can put me on ignore.

 

[TypeA]

Well, I had the meeting the Dean..

I am not getting kicked out. There is going to be some mediation, but it's behind closed doors and not on my permament school record. Case closed. If the police had been involved, obviously the story would have ended differently. My dean was very receptive and he thanked me for being so truthful..

It seems most of you on the forum don't believe I am telling the truth. That is a shame. Why is this story so hard to believe? Well, regardless- to those of you who do believe my story, it just goes to show that telling the truth and being up front with your supervisors is the #1 most important step in repairing the damages from a big screw up.

Of all the dumb things I've done, at least I can say I am good at damage
control..

You are either:
1. a troll
2. f***ing the Dean and all his cronies

Which is it?

 

[Iownhonda]

You know, even if this thread was all synthesized through imagination, I think there is a meaningful message that could extracted from this thread. Yes, poorMD could be some random guy off the street with a crazy intention to make innocent people believe something that really did not happen in real life, but we all have to face the fact at some point in our lives that we all are humans living in the world filled with lies, disgusts and deceptions. I believe that if we be true to ourselves and others, we can create a world that no longer needs illicit psychactive drugs like cocaine, marijuana, and heroin.

Well done poorMd, well done, you enlightened us well. Your adversity showed us a new path for us to take and the path that will lead us to a better healthy-living environment. May the force be with you

Honda

This sums up all my thoughts on this thread. So the op might not be a troll, but he's an attention ***** I guess both at sdn and at his school.

To the op, stop snorting coke and get some counseling, please.

 

[D30417995]

This thread is too long; I haven't read through the whole thing, but it does remind me of something related. I know someone (who's also doing medicine) who was caught by the police in the past, attended court, was granted a diversion and was made to make a donation to charity. Wouldn't that prevent him from getting a license after he finishes med school? and what exactly is a diversion????

 

[Herman Bloom]

OSUdoc, your views are beyond naive. Try revoking the licenses of every doctor who used drugs in the past (hypothetically, of course), and we'd have a true physician shortage. How about any doctor who has ever been drunk in public?

And I ask you: what about President Bush? OK for him to have done cocaine, as far as you are concerned?

 

[OSUdoc08]

OSUdoc, your views are beyond naive. Try revoking the licenses of every doctor who used drugs in the past (hypothetically, of course), and we'd have a true physician shortage. How about any doctor who has ever been drunk in public?

And I ask you: what about President Bush? OK for him to have done cocaine, as far as you are concerned?

Physicians don't have a DEA license to prescribe alcohol, since it is not a controlled substance.

The laws are there for a reason, I didn't make them up.

You'll want to review the penalties for physicians with drug convictions.

 

[bigfrank]

You're right.

However, people who have a history of drug abuse in the past are MUCH MORE LIKELY to abuse drugs in the future that those who have NEVER used drugs.

With all of your "big partying talk" in various threads, I'm left to believe that you're either a liar or have problems with alcohol yourself.

🙂

 

[OSUdoc08]

With all of your "big partying talk" in various threads, I'm left to believe that you're either a liar or have problems with alcohol yourself.

🙂

Alcohol is not an illegal drug, therefore it is not pertinent to the conversation.

I enjoy beer, but I'm only a social drinker.

 

[Herman Bloom]

Alcohol is not an illegal drug, therefore it is not pertinent to the conversation

That's why I specified doctors who have ever been drunk in public, which is, in fact, illegal. Point is, people who have made mistakes in the past -- including the use of illegal drugs -- should not be excluded from the medical profession. Now, a serious and documented history of outright abuse, on the other hand, may be cause for concern. I think you are casting a rather large net, so to speak.

And again, what about President Bush?

 

[OSUdoc08]

That's why I specified doctors who have ever been drunk in public, which is, in fact, illegal. Point is, people who have made mistakes in the past -- including the use of illegal drugs -- should not be excluded from the medical profession. Now, a serious and documented history of outright abuse, on the other hand, may be cause for concern. I think you are casting a rather large net, so to speak.

And again, what about President Bush?

You can't go to prison for public intoxication. You can for illegal drugs.

President Bush doesn't have a license to prescribe narcotics.

 

[Law2Doc]

And again, what about President Bush?

When he applies for a medical license, the issue should absolutely be raised. The nation does not seem to hold its President (the last couple actually) to the same standards as medical professoinals.

 

[Herman Bloom]

President Bush doesn't have a license to prescribe narcotics.

But he is able to direct the people enforcing the laws against illegal use of narcotics. I really can't believe that you would try to make such an argument given your previous comments (to the effect of, roughly, "terrible decisions require terrible consequences"). People make mistakes; that shouldn't prevent them from pursuing/contributing to the field of medicine.

 

[OSUdoc08]

But he is able to direct the people enforcing the laws against illegal use of narcotics. I really can't believe that you would try to make such an argument given your previous comments (to the effect of, roughly, "terrible decisions require terrible consequences"). People make mistakes; that shouldn't prevent them from pursuing/contributing to the field of medicine.

Explain to me why convicted felons have their medical license revoked.

 

[Herman Bloom]

We are not talking about a convicted felon, though, and you have expressed your hope that his dean "come down hard" on him for his indiscretion. Had he been arrested, charged, and conviceted of a felony...well that's a very different story.

 

[OSUdoc08]

We are not talking about a convicted felon, though, and you have expressed your hope that his dean "come down hard" on him for his indiscretion. Had he been arrested, charged, and conviceted of a felony...well that's a very different story.

Why?

A convicted drug user and an unconvicted drug user have still done the same thing. Only one of them has been caught.

 

[D30417995]

Why?

A convicted drug user and an unconvicted drug user have still done the same thing. Only one of them has been caught.

maybe all the convicted one needs is a diversion....

 

[2Sexy4MedSchool]

I know someone (who's also doing medicine) who was caught by the police in the past, attended court, was granted a diversion and was made to make a donation to charity. Wouldn't that prevent him from getting a license after he finishes med school? and what exactly is a diversion????

Diversion is an alternative to the standard criminal paradigm of arrest--charge--plea/trial-- conviction--punishment. It is authorized by statute in some, but not all states, for a variety of crimes ranging from dumb misdemeanors (like drunk in public) all the way up to otherwise potentially serious felonies like drug use/possession.

The idea is that after arrest suitable candidates will be filtered out of the court system to go through some alternative process: group meetings, home study, or formal treatment. Upon successful completion of the program the case is dismissed. The carrot = no conviction; the stick = potential jail time for screwing up. No conviction means nothing to bar licensure (other than the bad habit that got them there in the first place.)

Now remember:

Just say no.
Hugs, not drugs!
Let's all get high on good grades!!!