Help! LCSW vs. PsyD, senior with no direction

[bitesizemochi]

Hello all! I’m a current senior trying to decide whether to go for an MSW (leading into a LCSW) or a PsyD. My main goal is therapy within a private practice, and making a decent living doing what I love the most—listening to people, and helping them overcome the isolation that comes with mental health problems(very sugary and vague, I know). The problem is a) the weakness of my application, and b) I have a very loose idea of what I want to do and haven’t received much direction at all. I’m thinking I’d like to work with populations with personality disorders or those who have been affected by trauma, but this is liable to change. Here’s the lowdown:

- Major: Psychology B.A. (Clinical Concentration)
- Minor: Economics
- Will graduate from Boston College in the spring. My major GPA is a 3.364. My cumulative GPA is a 3.209. If I pull all A’s this semester, my cumulative will be a 3.33. I’m banking on a 3.29 at least.
- Currently writing a senior thesis in experimental social psychology.
- For 2 years I thought I’d be going into marketing, so all of my internships are based around marketing or creative writing. The only clinical placement I’ll have is the one I’m completing in the spring, at an outpatient center for eating disorders.

All in all, 1 year of research experience, half a year of clinical fieldwork. I think I’ll have 2-3 good rec letters, all from psychology professors who are also licensed clinical psychologists. I am taking a year off, hopefully to gain more clinical fieldwork experience, as well as take up a position as a research assistant somewhere.

I haven’t taken the GREs, so I don’t have that information yet. What I’m most worried about is my GPA. My last 60 credit hours come to a cumulative GPA of 3.42. It’s been such a long, uphill climb, a matter of applying myself amidst severe depression, anxiety, and PTSD, possibly ADHD as well. My GPA didn’t pick up until the end of my sophomore year, which coincides with the end of a tumultuous relationship I had with my best friend, who was diagnosed with borderline personality disorder.

Anyway, I digress. Not sure what MA programs for clinical psychology will accept such a low GPA, unless I have stellar GRE scores maybe? Based on a few forums I’ve read concerning graduate student statistics, I’m under the impression that MSW programs will be more willing to accept me.

Here is the information I’ve uncovered so far:

PsyD?
· Prestige; maximum potential salary while doing the clinical work I’ve dreamt of in private practice
· My parents—being a child of Asian immigrant parents, I feel a strong drive to go as far as I possibly can, to “prove” to them that the funds and efforts they’ve sunk into my upbringing will be worth it, because I’ve gone the farthest I can go. (There is the issue of if they can actually spare the money for a PsyD program, which I understand is very expensive.)
· I want to push my intellectual limits. I have a strong drive and high ambitions. Which is not to say that an LCSW doesn't have those things, but I feel a scary, perfectionist need to go as far as I can when it comes to my education.
· I’m not sure if I want to teach, but I’d like to have options rather than not.

LCSW?
· I can still make a good living while doing the clinical work I’ve dreamt of in private practice.
- Much less expensive (I think).
· My options are more limited—or at least, that’s how it feels. I get the impression that potential clients would spring more for a professional with a doctorate degree than someone with a master’s.
· 4-5 years until I can reach licensure, as opposed to the 7ish years I would spend in a doctorate program.

What do you think? I apologize if this seems under-researched, or if the details are sparse—I’d just like a better idea of what programs will accept me, and if it’s worth it to spring so much money for a PsyD when I am so unsure. As I write this, I realized I lean heavily towards the LCSW…but I’d like your input anyway. Besides, isn't it possible to get a PsyD or PhD after the fact of becoming an LCSW? Will the option of a doctorate degree always be open to me?

Also: what other questions should I be asking? I feel like I have a very narrow perception of what is important: to be honest, I’m looking mostly at potential earnings rather than anything else. Pleasing my parents is also important. HOW DO I HONE MY INTERESTS?

Again, thank you so much in advance. It's a lot of questions, I know. I’ve been losing a lot of sleep over this, as graduation is nigh and I still feel stuck in the woods.

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[Ollie123]

I wouldn't let the earning sway you. The differences mostly emerge from having access to a greater range of activities you can do as a psychologist. For a therapy-focused career, the differences will likely be negligible. I haven't crunched the numbers, but I think its possible they could even favor the LCSW over the long run once you factor in the debt of most PsyD programs (though obviously that changes tremendously if you attend a funded or partially funded one). If your parents are paying, that changes the picture somewhat for you, but I presume they also want to invest wisely.

Patients probably would pay more out of pocket for a doctoral level provider than a masters level one. For the overwhelming majority of patients and providers, this is irrelevant as the rates will be determined by insurance. Cash practice is possible, but not nearly as easy to build and sustain as many seem to assume.

Your GPA isn't great, but its okay. Likely less of an issue for social work programs, but it all depends on where you are applying.

Pleasing the parents is a very personal issue. Not sure we can really be of much help there.

Best way to hone your interests is through reading and doing. Soak it all up and figure out what you want to do most. Not really any shortcuts there.

Its possible to get a PsyD or PhD after an LCSW. Sort of a different path, it might positively or negatively impact your chances of admission at various programs but there is nothing to say it can't be done.

 

[PsychMajorUndergrad18]

Hello!!

While I am neither a licensed clinical psychologist or a LCSW, I have been on SDN for awhile I have seen similar posts like the one you posted. Basically the main difference that I have seen between the PsyD and MSW (to become a LCSW) is scope of practice. Most of what a practitioner with a PsyD does is do assessments/referrals and conduct therapy (so if you are interested in doing assessment than the PsyD is a good choice, although a PhD is the best choice) while a LCSW with a MSW does therapy while also doing things that a social worker would do (such as provide services for a patient and others things depending on where the LCSW is employed). Now the cons to getting a PsyD (at least to me and from what I have heard from a lot of people on SDN) is the time to complete it (which could be anywhere from 4-7 years depending on how fast you can get out (with the average being around 5 years) and also how expensive most programs tend to be (a person with a PsyD can have anywhere between 20,000 to debt in the six figure range). The MSW is more cheaper in regards to student loan debt (average is around 10-50,000 depending on the program [according to NASW (National Association of Social Workers)]), but you won't really have a lot of classes in theraepy and psychopathology as you would have in a PsyD program. For the MSW, you would want to aim for a good program that has a fair amount of clinical classes but most of your clinical experience will either be in internships or while getting hours to get your LCSW license.

Now if you only want to do therapy then I say that it is possibly a good choice to do the MSW (if you could handle all of the SW classes)

PsychMajorUndergrad18

 

[PsychMajorUndergrad18]

Another option for you if you go the MSW route is to maybe get some post-graduate training in psychoanalysis or even CBT. A lot of the psychoanalysis institutes accept professionals with the LCSW.

 

[Harry3990]

People are making good points above. I'd agree that going with the MSW sounds like it makes the most sense for your interests. Furthermore, regarding the "pleasing the parents" issue, I'd suggest that you keep in mind that you could always return to school to obtain your PhD in social work as well (note: I think some schools call them DSW's). If you are mostly interested in furthering your education generally and obtaining the "prestige" that comes with the doctoral degree, this option makes more sense (IMHO) compared to going back for a PsyD after already being licensed as an LCSW. This would likely take much less time compared to starting from scratch in a PsyD program.

In my anecdotal experience, PhD's in social work tend to make it possible to get positions as professors (assuming you want to enter academia and contribute to scientific research in that field) in SW depts and would likely also make it easier to get a teaching-oriented position in such a dept. Other than that, it may be slightly (take this with a HUGE grain of salt, just my observation, n=~2) easier to get administrative positions with a doctorate (e.g., directors at UCC's, community clinics, etc.)

 

[PsychMajorUndergrad18]

From what I have heard UCCs usually hire counseling psychologists a lot but I think ive seen a few social workers (with a LCSW license) and some LPCS as counselors. Plus from the document that I found the loan debt for MSWs, DSWs seem to be really expensive (people take out around 50,000)

 

[biscuitsbiscuits]

Hi, Mochi!

I think everyone above has done a good job describing the differences between the two degrees.

I wanted to add: you don't have to make this decision now.

See how that year off goes. If you want to spend that year doing something to further your goals, then maximizing research hours is probably your best bet. But also try to spend that year wandering around a bit. You don't necessarily have to spend a year in Prague or anything, but just try to spend some time being aimless and focusing on the present moment. See what happens.

I did this and ended up putting dreams of a doctoral program on hold for ten years while working in research and I really enjoyed those years. I highly recommend it. It really did help me focus on what *I* wanted out of my life. And I also got to make some money and have spare time (which just doesn't exist while you are in school) for a while. I had hobbies. It was great. I "learned who I was" and all of that. Ten years is pretty long and I'm not suggesting you do that too (it would have been too long for many people), but just one. Just spend one year wandering around in your life without academic pressures.

(I realize that not everyone is me, so your mileage may vary, as they say. This may or may not be right for you, but it's worth considering.)

All of that said, I have an MSW (from a very clinically oriented program) and am applying to doctoral programs. I found that I wanted more and I have the feeling from what you said above (though no one knows but you) that you may find yourself wanting more, too. If you find that you want to go for a doctoral program, don't worry too much about your GPA at this point. Just do whatever you can to boost your apps now (research, GRE, etc.) and apply. It'll happen or it won't (but I think it probably would if you wanted to go that route). And re chances for admission to an MSW program? You're fine. You'll get in.

Good luck!

 

[smalltownpsych]

I would say that aiming for a fully-funded PhD is what you would do if you want to set the highest goal. That would also provide the best and most varied training and education with the most options IMO. It is like asking if you want to be a Nurse Practitioner or an MD except bigger salary differential between those two than social worker and psychologist. Scope of practice for the two can be pretty similar though, especially in psychiatry and in states with independent practice.