Help needed for "appeal plagiarism"

[Kevin Baker]

---

Members do not see this ad.

I never noticed blatant cheating at my undergrad college. But I took summer classes at my state school (UIC) and the cheating was insane. As in, 1/2 of the people in my lab blatantly cheated. How anyone has the audacity to walk into a 4 hour lab and turn in the filled out lab within ten minutes of setting up isn't surprising. People are pretty rational and if you can get away with something, they often will cut corners. How our TA didn't take any action on such obvious cheating ... that boggles my mind. Blatant cheating, imo, is the fault of lax administration, and I commend your teacher for taking a hard stance.

To address the OP
I typed out a long response on the best approach to take with this then reread your post and deleted it. You not only did this intentionally, but now you're trying to cast doubt on your profs moral integrity. I get that plagiarism isn't stressed equally universally and you seem to know that it was wrong, but not that it would end your dream of being a doc, so there is some good ol fashioned ignorance and victim of circumstance issues here. But your response to this is puerile. You're an adult. Act like it, own up to it, and stop pretending the world is out to get you.

 

[smarts1]

Seems like your school is very conservative. My school is very liberal, and the first offense for anything (no matter how bad the offense) will never get you suspended. They are also more than willing to hear the students' side of the story, so they always have a meeting with us before they make a verdict. Sometimes, we get to agree/disagree on the outcome.

Besides that, the system is kind of unfair. Cheating is rampant across college campuses. That's a fact. Yet, only a very small number of people are caught for doing it. Beyond that, the system deliberately goes out of its way to punish students, without really giving them a chance to grow and learn from their mistake. There lies such a huge paradox in this system-- you are supposed to "grow" from the incident and get on with your life, but your life becomes pretty much ruined and hopeless. You really can't demonstrate to people that you've learned your lesson because other people are so unwilling to let the past go.

Anyways, even if the professor is bad, you should have known that plaigarism is a huge no-no in this country, no matter what. But either way, I think it's a bit harsh on the OP to be suspended for plaigarizing a rough draft, not even the final copy.

 

[LizzyM]

As long as the number of applicants to medical school is twice the number of seats, there will be no reason at all to consider an applicant who has a record of academic dishonesty.

 

[Darwinism]

Might as well be accused of animal cruelty

 

[deleted393595]

As long as the number of applicants to medical school is twice the number of seats, there will be no reason at all to consider an applicant who has a record of academic dishonesty.

I'm not familiar with the AMCAS, but is there a section on there where the OP can explain the circumstances behind his suspension? Could this still fly with med schools as long as he has good stats?

 

[LizzyM]

I'm not familiar with the AMCAS, but is there a section on there where the OP can explain the circumstances behind his suspension? Could this still fly with med schools as long as he has good stats?

Not can but must. This is an institutional action and it must be disclosed and explained. I've never seen anyone with academic dishonesty advance to the interview stage of the admission process. Ten years and I've never seen it.

 

[patel2]

Not can but must. This is an institutional action and it must be disclosed and explained. I've never seen anyone with academic dishonesty advance to the interview stage of the admission process. Ten years and I've never seen it.

it's interesting that criminal offenses like a dui can be overcome with enough time/repentance in between the incident, but that academy dishonesty seems to be the dagger on an application

 

[kcin]

it's interesting that criminal offenses like a dui can be overcome with enough time/repentance in between the incident, but that academy dishonesty seems to be the dagger on an application

A (single) DUI is a horrible judgement call and can be overcome/avoided in the future. Academic dishonesty goes to the core of a person's ethics. Unethical people are better off finding another calling, like politics or law.

 

[FrkyBgStok]

I personally like how the OP attacks the professor talking about sex like it has anything to do with the issue. I have taken many many classes over 4 colleges and universities and I can say confidently that with every class comes a syllabus and in every single one of them there is giant section on academic dishonesty. Saying you had no previous warning is foolish.

 

[GreenRabbit]

You would have been expelled at my school.

 

[patel2]

.

 

[LegendaryPunk]

Succumbing to stress and turning in a plagiarized paper could be a horrible judgement call and never repeated in the future as well though. As the poster above me said, the potential for immediate harm to other individual is also much greater for a DUI. Why is one considered a redeemable offense and the other is not?

Granted, when I say redeemable, I am talking about a low-tier DUI offense with no recurring activity, not an off-the-charts BAC with property damage / personal injury. Any sort of bad behavior taken to the extreme will close doors. However, couldn't this example be compared to the theorethical case of cheating on a rough draft vs. falsifying an entire thesis?

Not can but must. This is an institutional action and it must be disclosed and explained. I've never seen anyone with academic dishonesty advance to the interview stage of the admission process. Ten years and I've never seen it.

vs. how many with criminal (misdemeanor) backgrounds? I understand if you don't want to disclose this information.

 

[LizzyM]

Academic dishonesty suggests a character flaw. Ditto stealing, particularly from other students, stalking, or a violent temper.

Alcohol impairs judgment. Those of us who have been using it for decades know how it affects us and use caution. An inexperienced drinker may get into trouble with driving, carelessly carrying a drink out of an establishment onto the sidewalk, or pissing in an alley. There is greater forgiveness for errors made along the learning curve than there are for errors made to a poorly formed conscious.

I don't know how many apply with misdemeanors but I see a few make it through interview to offer of admission each year.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

A (single) DUI is a horrible judgement call and can be overcome/avoided in the future. Academic dishonesty goes to the core of a person's ethics. Unethical people are better off finding another calling, like politics or law.

Yeah well at least you don't drastically increase your chances of killing someone by not citing a paragraph in your paper. I really don't see how you have much of a position arguing that a DUI is less wrong than not citing some sources for a paper in a class you don't give a **** about. Are either of them good? No. But I don't think writing a crappy paper for one stupid class (and we all know there's plenty of them in college) goes the "the core of a person's ethics".

If I had to choose between the two, I'd choose putting someone else's life in danger by operating a 2000-4000 pound motor vehicle impaired as cutting a little closer to someone's "ethics". Get off your high horse.

 

[mauberley]

What about academic dishonesty committed while under the influence? 😳

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

Alcohol impairs judgment. Those of us who have been using it for decades know how it affects us and use caution. An inexperienced drinker may get into trouble with driving, carelessly carrying a drink out of an establishment onto the sidewalk, or pissing in an alley. There is greater forgiveness for errors made along the learning curve than there are for errors made to a poorly formed conscious.

Oh so it'd be better if I cheated while I was drunk because it would "impair my judgement".... I found your solution OP, apparently that's all you need to say to defend your lack of citation. "Sorry guys but I had a few shots before I did it, I guess my judgement was just impaired"

Do I think there's a problem with public intox, public unrination, underage drinking (esp. if over 18), public nuisance/noise violation etc. being forgivable offenses? No way. These all easily fall under the category of just being stupid things people do. I would hesitate to group DUI in with these by calling it an error made "along the learning curve" which is just due to an "impairment in judgement". Again, knowingly putting other people's lives at risk seems to be a bigger lapse in judgement than not citing some sources in a paper.

Are either of them good things? No, but I would say that if a school is willing to let someone with a DUI interview, they should at least give someone with a dishonesty action the same chance. Why couldn't they both have learned from what happened?

 

[LizzyM]

Yeah well at least you don't drastically increase your chances of killing someone by not citing a paragraph in your paper. I really don't see how you have much of a position arguing that a DUI is less wrong than not citing some sources for a paper in a class you don't give a **** about. Are either of them good? No. But I don't think writing a crappy paper for one stupid class (and we all know there's plenty of them in college) goes the "the core of a person's ethics".

If I had to choose between the two, I'd choose putting someone else's life in danger by operating a 2000-4000 pound motor vehicle impaired as cutting a little closer to someone's "ethics". Get off your high horse.

Get off your high horse, go to the library, or to your favorite purveyor of used books and get a copy of "Forgive and Remember" by Charles Bosk. Read it. Reflect on judgmental errors, normative errors, technical errors and moral errors. Understand the sociology of surgical training and you'll have a better insight into the sociology of medical admissions.

 

[jennifer1585]

I personally like how the OP attacks the professor talking about sex like it has anything to do with the issue. I have taken many many classes over 4 colleges and universities and I can say confidently that with every class comes a syllabus and in every single one of them there is giant section on academic dishonesty. Saying you had no previous warning is foolish.

To FrkyBgStok,
I never told my school how this professor behave. I think it is not related my case so I chose but to say, even the sex part made him really disgusting.

The fact is I did it in a wrong way, which I have already admitted. However, I just think asking me to take the full responsibility without considering how bad the instructor is unfair. Don't you know this is terribly wrong before so you never even want to try it in your life? If you didn't have much knowledge (haven't been educated enough) about it before, how do you know it is wrong? Then how can you do it in a right way? I think most people in US will never understand the situation I have because you never experienced a different culture in other countries for the most part of your life.

But still, I appreciate people here taking time to give your opinions. Thank you.

 

[jennifer1585]

There lies such a huge paradox in this system-- you are supposed to "grow" from the incident and get on with your life, but your life becomes pretty much ruined and hopeless. You really can't demonstrate to people that you've learned your lesson because other people are so unwilling to let the past go.

smarts1;

Thanks for your words and understanding. As you mentioned, "you are supposed to "grow" from the incident and get on with your life, but your life becomes pretty much ruined and hopeless.", I felt the same way. I don't understand why the education become such a big punishment. The staff professor who majorly handled the paperwork of this case has comforted me by saying that Education is not the punishment. She told me I should learn it and move on. However, the decision made by the board member made me no way to move on. Putting the permanent record on one's transcript is strong enough to kill one's future or even life.

 

[Darwinism]

.

 

[patel2]

Academic dishonesty suggests a character flaw. Ditto stealing, particularly from other students, stalking, or a violent temper.

Alcohol impairs judgment. Those of us who have been using it for decades know how it affects us and use caution. An inexperienced drinker may get into trouble with driving, carelessly carrying a drink out of an establishment onto the sidewalk, or pissing in an alley. There is greater forgiveness for errors made along the learning curve than there are for errors made to a poorly formed conscious.

I don't know how many apply with misdemeanors but I see a few make it through interview to offer of admission each year.

true but wouldn't you agree there are different levels of academic dishonesty with some worthy of being redeemed? I feel to automatically shut out a student with a transcript dishonesty citation, irregardless of circumstance, while allowing someone else to "learn from a mistake" with misdemeanors is a flaw in the admissions process.

Sometimes an inexperienced freshman might be very careless about paraphrasing something, or mis-cite a source, when they genuinely weren't intending to cheat or lie. Depending on the school, they may be get an F and academic dishonesty on their record for this.

I'm not saying a school should let this slide, but the intent was clearly not malicious, and it is different from purposely cheating or plagarizing because you "didn't have time to do the work or were lazy." I feel that while a student should be disciplined by the school, they are just as capable of redemption and learning from this mistake as someone who commits a DUI, and neither should be inherently barred from getting into a school.

 

[NickNaylor]

true but wouldn't you agree there are different levels of academic dishonesty with some worthy of being redeemed? I feel to automatically shut out a student with a transcript dishonesty citation, irregardless of circumstance, while allowing someone else to "learn from a mistake" with misdemeanors is a flaw in the admissions process.

Sometimes an inexperienced freshman might be very careless about paraphrasing something, or mis-cite a source, when they genuinely weren't intending to cheat or lie. Depending on the school, they may be get an F and academic dishonesty on their record for this.

I'm not saying a school should let this slide, but the intent was clearly not malicious, and it is different from purposely cheating or plagarizing because you "didn't have time to do the work or were lazy." I feel that while a student should be disciplined by the school, they are just as capable of redemption and learning from this mistake as someone who commits a DUI, and neither should be inherently barred from getting into a school.

You'll definitely be shut out for using the word "irregardless."

 

[patel2]

You'll definitely be shut out for using the word "irregardless."

lol, not an official word, but still frequently used enough informally that it has it's own wikipedia page.

 

[LizzyM]

true but wouldn't you agree there are different levels of academic dishonesty with some worthy of being redeemed? I feel to automatically shut out a student with a transcript dishonesty citation, irregardless of circumstance, while allowing someone else to "learn from a mistake" with misdemeanors is a flaw in the admissions process.

Sometimes an inexperienced freshman might be very careless about paraphrasing something, or mis-cite a source, when they genuinely weren't intending to cheat or lie. Depending on the school, they may be get an F and academic dishonesty on their record for this.

I'm not saying a school should let this slide, but the intent was clearly not malicious, and it is different from purposely cheating or plagarizing because you "didn't have time to do the work or were lazy." I feel that while a student should be disciplined by the school, they are just as capable of redemption and learning from this mistake as someone who commits a DUI, and neither should be inherently barred from getting into a school.

I highly doubt that a cheater is caught on the first and only time cheating any more than someone stopped for doing 90 in a 55 zone has just been stopped the first and only time they ever exceeded the speed limit.

I'll say it again... as long as the number of applicants is double the number of seats, adcoms will be very picky. Most med schools think they could live with a current M1 or M2 student who gets caught at a check point above the legal limit but they will not take the same approach to a M1 or M2 student who is caught copying another student's work.

 

[quepatho]

I highly doubt that a cheater is caught on the first and only time cheating any more than someone stopped for doing 90 in a 55 zone has just been stopped the first and only time they ever exceeded the speed limit.

I'll say it again... as long as the number of applicants is double the number of seats, adcoms will be very picky. Most med schools think they could live with a current M1 or M2 student who gets caught at a check point above the legal limit but they will not take the same approach to a M1 or M2 student who is caught copying another student's work.

I just think it's interesting how many of my classmates from high school who were caught cheating in high school are now in medical school (can think of 4 off the top of my head). One of them actually physically stole a practice AP exam from the teacher (so that he would have the answers when he took it in class). Guess they stopped cheating in college? Or got smarter about it or something?

I guess copying someone else's intellectual property isn't the sincerest form of flattery after all. 😳 I wonder what the original author would have thought of the copying.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

Get off your high horse, go to the library, or to your favorite purveyor of used books and get a copy of "Forgive and Remember" by Charles Bosk. Read it. Reflect on judgmental errors, normative errors, technical errors and moral errors. Understand the sociology of surgical training and you'll have a better insight into the sociology of medical admissions.

Thank you for assuming I don't what these mean. Not to mention it wouldn't be that hard to figure out what they mean...not the most complicated ideas in the world. The first thing I would state is that it is rather difficult to take these errors that he talks about, in one specific context, and apply them in a broad stroke to these other categories involving institutional actions for academic dishonesty and DUIs.

Again, I would have to say that if you're going to throw a one time offense under the category of "moral error", suggesting a character flaw, you should be putting DUI under that category as well. How does not taking into account the bodily harm you could inflict on others not count as a character flaw? How is not considering the possibility of killing another person less reprehensible than not caring enough about your work? (of course, in the medical field the two often combine, as shown in the book) If the excuse is "people make poor judgement calls when under the influence of alcohol", I fail to see why then you could not claim that you plagarized under the influence of alcohol. Did you probably pull up your paper beforehand? Probably. However, I don't see how this is any different from someone driving to the bar beforehand, knowing they plan to drive their car back. In both cases you are making a decision before you are ever under the influence of anything and this decision (pulling up your paper or pulling your car up to the parking spot) will most likely result in a later error.

Another problem is that context is not taken into account here at all. It's rather hard to extrapolate the type of moral error that is talked in the medical field to a random college class. Does not citing some sources for my "Intro to Food Studies" class paper count as a "moral error" in that I don't care enough about it to do the best job I can? Uh, yeah it does in that I couldn't care less about the random class that I need to take that has nothing to do with my major/field, helps me develop no useful skill and fulfills some requirement for my university (as I said before examples of stupid/useless classes abound in many colleges). However, is this reflective of my overall attitude towards academics? I could see a serious argument being made that this instance indicates nothing more than a lazy college sophomore hating his Intro to Food Studies class and throwing some stuff down on a paper that he didn't want to organize and cite properly. Is this hurting anyone (besides perhaps the other poor souls stuck in Intro to Food Studies who would have been properly citing their papers)? In this SPECIFIC case, not really. Is this specific case going to reflect on how I will perform in my profession (any less than driving while impaired)? I would argue no.

In the end, context should always be evaluated when looking at some sort of error. To mark all instances of institutional action for dishonesty as some kind of black mark that will basically automatically bar you from admissions is, quite frankly, not fair at all. Should people be punished for academic dishonesty? Of course they should, with punishments proportional to the offense. Why, though, would someone automatically assume that a person cited once for academic dishonesty have some intrinsic flaw and not give them a chance to prove that they can be an honest person? If you do the this for the DUI, I don't see how you can't do the same for the poor Intro to Food studies sap.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

I highly doubt that a cheater is caught on the first and only time cheating any more than someone stopped for doing 90 in a 55 zone has just been stopped the first and only time they ever exceeded the speed limit.

Just like most people who get caught for DUI aren't driving under the influence for the first time either. The people I see drinking it up and driving around are usually doing it every time they go out to the bar, not just the one time they couldn't find a ride home. However, as stated before, context should always be taken into account.

Sorry for the double post, meant to fix the quote on the one above

 

[LizzyM]

. Does not citing some sources for my "Intro to Food Studies" class paper count as a "moral error" in that I don't care enough about it to do the best job I can? Uh, yeah it does in that I couldn't care less about the random class that I need to take that has nothing to do with my major/field, helps me develop no useful skill and fulfills some requirement for my university (as I said before examples of stupid/useless classes abound in many colleges). However, is this reflective of my overall attitude towards academics?

Med school also requires some courses that people think are a waste of time although the faculty who developed the curriculum believe the information/experience is important. So the adcoms want to select students who care. who take their studies seriously and who always do their best. When there are more applicants than there are seats, it is easy to set aside those applicants who don't cut the mustard.

 

[Darwinism]

I'm not taking sides here, but a DUI also does not misrepresent someones acedemic capabilitites. I believe someone convicted of a DUI cannot become a cop, but I'm sure if they got caught cheating on a test it wouldn't be as much of an issue.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

When there are more applicants than there are seats, it is easy to set aside those applicants who don't cut the mustard.

Haha I can't argue with that though.

 

[boobelle]

Does not citing some sources for my "Intro to Food Studies" class paper count as a "moral error" in that I don't care enough about it to do the best job I can? Uh, yeah it does in that I couldn't care less about the random class that I need to take that has nothing to do with my major/field, helps me develop no useful skill and fulfills some requirement for my university (as I said before examples of stupid/useless classes abound in many colleges). However, is this reflective of my overall attitude towards academics? I could see a serious argument being made that this instance indicates nothing more than a lazy college sophomore hating his Intro to Food Studies class and throwing some stuff down on a paper that he didn't want to organize and cite properly. Is this hurting anyone (besides perhaps the other poor souls stuck in Intro to Food Studies who would have been properly citing their papers)? In this SPECIFIC case, not really. Is this specific case going to reflect on how I will perform in my profession (any less than driving while impaired)? I would argue no.

I argue yes. It's not the offense itself, it's the pattern and characteristics it reveals...and, as others have posted, someone caught cheating usually has been doing so for a long time before getting caught.

Flash forward to medical school, residency or your career. There are always going to be courses or rotations or paperwork that aren't your favorite thing and at the time seem irrelevant to what you want to do. So you want to go into, say, psych and couldn't care less about surgery and hate the rotation...by the logic above, then it's okay to not bothering to pay attention in the OR or check on the postop patient and so on. After all, you're never going to have to do any of that when you're a psychiatrist, right? What about when you're on the medicine wards as a prelim planning to go into radiology, and couldn't care less about internal medicine because it has little to nothing to do with your future career? Or how are we to know that when you're an attending you won't decide you don't need to follow the OR checklist or file certain paperwork or review films yourself just because it's not interesting to you?

If a student's pattern is to be sloppy or think it's okay cheat because it's not personally important to them, how am I to know this student ISN'T going to cut corners or pretend they did/asked something when they didn't, and thus potentially put a patient's life in danger? If a student can't manage to hold themselves to basic ethical and personal standards on a paper for a stupid class in college, it's hard to believe they'd manage to hold themselves to a higher standard when they're stressed, overworked, overtired and overwhelmed with the demands and pressures of medicine. In fact, it's a no brainer to predict that the student/resident/doctor is going to resort to old habits...and those habits which "won't hurt anyone" on a college paper CAN hurt someone when it comes to practicing medicine. So why on earth would an adcom pick that applicant over someone with an upstanding record?

That all said, I DO agree that the DUIs and other misdemeanors are similar reasons not to accept students...but I don't for a minute buy an argument that, when choosing someone to enter the medical profession, cheating is somehow okay because the student just felt like it.

 

[LizzyM]

Should an M3 student who cheats on an exam (yes, there are exams when you are doing clinical rotations) or falsifies a physical exam (did not actually do the exam but made up the results or copied the resident's findings) be punished by the medical school?

Should an M3 student who is arrested for DUI while on spring break be punished by the medical school?

Should a research assistant or faculty member who is found to be falsifying research results be sanctioned by the university (perhaps fired)? Should an employee or faculty member who is arrested on Thanksgiving weekend for DUI be sanctioned or fired from the University?

 

[Darwinism]

should an m3 student who cheats on an exam (yes, there are exams when you are doing clinical rotations) or falsifies a physical exam (did not actually do the exam but made up the results or copied the resident's findings) be punished by the medical school?

Should an m3 student who is arrested for dui while on spring break be punished by the medical school?

Should a research assistant or faculty member who is found to be falsifying research results be sanctioned by the university (perhaps fired)? Should an employee or faculty member who is arrested on thanksgiving weekend for dui be sanctioned or fired from the university?

yes
no
yes
no

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

That all said, I also think the DUIs and other misdemeanors are similar reasons not to accept students...but I don't for a minute buy an argument that, when choosing someone to enter the medical profession, academic dishonesty is excusable because the material wasn't interesting or due to lazines.

No no you're right my real point is that I really don't see why we can't have cases where the two are comparable, instead of sticking DUI in one category of error and cheating in another total cateory. I was just trying to throw an example out there where you could have an instance of cheating that may not reveal a pattern of academic dishonesty, just like you could have a DUI that doesn't reveal a pattern of constant drinking and driving.

Should an M3 student who cheats on an exam (yes, there are exams when you are doing clinical rotations) or falsifies a physical exam (did not actually do the exam but made up the results or copied the resident's findings) be punished by the medical school?

Should an M3 student who is arrested for DUI while on spring break be punished by the medical school?

Should a research assistant or faculty member who is found to be falsifying research results be sanctioned by the university (perhaps fired)? Should an employee or faculty member who is arrested on Thanksgiving weekend for DUI be sanctioned or fired from the University?

See, here's where I see the real problem. If you're saying these things shouldn't be punished in the same way, then I would have to say that is incorrect. I'll focus on the first one...Is cheating on this exam hurting anyone in the immediate sense? I believe everyone would agree that this is not causing any harm to anyone else (except perhaps other students competing against this one) when the student gets a favorable score. Has a student being arrested for DUI,when he/she hasn't killed/hurt anyone else, hurt anyone in the immediate sense? Again, no.

The main argument people then bring to the academic dishonesty problem (which has been echoed here) is that this reveals a pattern of cheating that could lead to an actual immediate harm being done later on, when the consequences for cheating are real. However, the consequences for a DUI are also well known, well documented and the illegality is well established. In fact, I would argue that the DUI has MORE potential for immediate harm to occur, in that immediate bodily harm could have occured to another person while the DUI the student was arrested for was in progress. The delayed reaction times, impaired judgement and instances of DUI resulting in horrific outcomes are well known. The problems resulting from DUI have been extremely well spread by organizations and these same organizations have distributed large amounts of information allowing you to calculate how much alcohol is safe to consume, even given that different states have different DUI laws. As I stated before, when you are going to DUI, you usually know it (as much as people might say otherwise). You drive your car wherever you'll be drinking and you don't plan on leaving it there. You know that driving while intoxicated has a much higher probability of resulting in harm to others. I don't see how this is not a calculated decision. Just because you choose to ignore it or didn't "mean" to hurt someone doesn't mean you didn't have all the information.

I think the real problem is that most adults have driven after drinking before and this empathy lets them get off a little lighter on those with a DUI as just a "stupid mistake". Who hasn't had a couple glasses of wine or 2-3 beers with dinner and then driven home once in their life? However, just because most people do it doesn't discount the consequences that can result because of it.

 

[Pons Asinorum]

I think the DUI vs. plagiarism thing has come to the point where minds aren't going to be changed, since it was at that point as soon as it was brought up. Is this thread retrievable from that rabbit hole? Agree to disagree or something?

 

[LizzyM]

Academic dishonesty violates school rules. It shows a lack of integrity that is the bedrock of trust with the academic community. Driving under the influence does not (unless the school has a prohibition against any use of alcohol by any student -- and the schools that have such a rule often extend it to faculty as well).

 

[n3xa]

It will be difficult for the OP to ever get accepted to a US medical school. A real long shot in my opinion.

The odds might be high, but people do get interviews at least.

And by people I mean one classmate of mine.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

I think the DUI vs. plagiarism thing has come to the point where minds aren't going to be changed, since it was at that point as soon as it was brought up. Is this thread retrievable from that rabbit hole? Agree to disagree or something?

Haha I think the thread is pretty much over as far as the OP is concerned...it's not looking good seems to be the consensus. I just thought we'd keep it alive with this.

Interesting that the argument changed from "the two are different fundamental types of errors" to an appeal to authority..."one is against school rules the other is not". Plus, if that's the argument what does it say about the school in that it will allow endangering of others' lives in one instance and not another?

 

[fizzgig]

isn't the school focus on the academic dishonesty vs the DUI (or whatever) partially because it is precisely that kind of behavior that sort of falls under the school's umbrella? yes a school could discipline you for DUI or any other crime (and many might to whatever degree), but it's not their purpose and job to do that - they defer to the police, whose job it IS. dealing with academic dishonesty, on the other hand, is really woven into the purpose of an academic institution. the school's focus is to educate and turn out people who have earned their academic degree fairly, so it is within their domain to determine whatever punishment they see fit to deter the behavior that's under their umbrella. do they catch all cheaters? no. is it their right to have the punishment for cheating be the academic equivalent of cutting off the thief's hands? sure. probably a better deterrent than most.

it sure sucks for the OP, i agree, but it could be worse, too. at my school you'd just be expelled.

 

[quepatho]

I also can't help but wonder...since it appears most people think the plagiarism charge is the kiss of death for an application...maybe she should apply without putting discussing it in her application/make up a lie to explain the transcript? I mean, really what does she have to lose if she "definitely wasn't going to get in anyway"? Right? Am I missing a step here?

Incidentally, one of my classmates (a 4th year) plagiarized an assignment and he had to explain it to every residency where he interviewed. Matched at his second choice, though, in Houston in general surgery. Apparently he also has sold several hundred thousand dollars worth of pot in his lifetime, so actually it kind of seems like he's hit the right profession after all, only now it's legal (drug dealer).

It's kind of sad, I'm a second year and already jaded, but honestly lots of people lie all the time. Some people just do it in writing and some people do it in bad faith or good faith and some people just tell the truth technically but their actions lie more than their words. Some people do it to hurt others. Some people just get caught, is all.

 

[Avoidthetiger]

I am curious as to way schools even bother letting applicants apply if they have an academic violation. Why not state directly on their website that no one who has ever committed an academic violation has received an interview -- instead of giving the student hope that they can explain their past behavior and how they have rectify it. If there is so many applicants, so why even bother taking the ones with flaws -- why not just knock out the cheaters and even the students with DUIs. Bar them from ever applying -- much like you can never become a police officer or pilot if you have had a DUI.

 

[LizzyM]

I am curious as to way schools even bother letting applicants apply if they have an academic violation. Why not state directly on their website that no one who has ever committed an academic violation has received an interview -- instead of giving the student hope that they can explain their past behavior and how they have rectify it. If there is so many applicants, so why even bother taking the ones with flaws -- why not just knock out the cheaters and even the students with DUIs. Bar them from ever applying -- much like you can never become a police officer or pilot if you have had a DUI.

Well, why not do that with anyone who has a gpa of 2.19 or less and an MCAT of 14 or less. Odds of getting admitted are slim and none but no one says, "don't bother applying".

As for the suggestion that it not be mentioned on the application -- I am stunned that a medical student would not know that falsification of the AMCAS application is grounds for dismissal. Proceed with caution. Cheating and then lying about it. 😱 I can't think of a bigger kiss of death. You'd have a better chance of being admitted if you killed the dean's mother while drunk driving in Florida during spring break. (Not that anyone should place themselves in such a situation.)

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

I am curious as to way schools even bother letting applicants apply if they have an academic violation. Why not state directly on their website that no one who has ever committed an academic violation has received an interview -- instead of giving the student hope that they can explain their past behavior and how they have rectify it.

That's actually a great idea...don't give people false hope/make them waste money applying and it would be a great deterrent to have pre-med offices able to say to all the kids that they definitely won't have a chance at getting into school if they ever commit these types of violations. At least then everything is perfectly clear. It'll never happen though, because everyone wants some leeway for that one exception they might let in.

 

[quepatho]

As for the suggestion that it not be mentioned on the application -- I am stunned that a medical student would not know that falsification of the AMCAS application is grounds for dismissal. Proceed with caution. Cheating and then lying about it. 😱 I can't think of a bigger kiss of death. You'd have a better chance of being admitted if you killed the dean's mother while drunk driving in Florida during spring break. (Not that anyone should place themselves in such a situation.)

Haha, I guess I didn't falsify my AMCAS app, so I didn't look into that particular detail. 😉 😀

I did say "practically speaking", I didn't say ethically speaking. I figured that a small chance at medical school is better than no chance. And practically, it really doesn't seem to me that most medical schools are looking for reasons to dismiss their matriculants. I've found that ethics seems to be something much-talked-of around medical school and little-acted-upon, and the people who are doing the most talking about it are thinking about it the least.

Perhaps it is a bad idea to share my opinions during step 1 studying .

 

[FIREitUP]

Wow you guys are harsh; I hope if I ever have to go to court you guys aren't in the jury. 😛

 

[IlDestriero]

To be honest, I think you got off lightly. If you went to my school, you would have been expelled. Plagiarism is plagiarism if it's the whole assignment or a few paragraphs. I don't view plagiarism as a minor offense at all, and you admit to doing it. Learn from your mistake, do something useful in your year off and come back stronger. It's a serious concern for your application, but you can overcome almost anything. You really better bring some big numbers to the table. Good luck.

 

[plsfoldthx]

Academic dishonesty suggests a character flaw. Ditto stealing, particularly from other students, stalking, or a violent temper.

Alcohol impairs judgment. Those of us who have been using it for decades know how it affects us and use caution. An inexperienced drinker may get into trouble with driving, carelessly carrying a drink out of an establishment onto the sidewalk, or pissing in an alley. There is greater forgiveness for errors made along the learning curve than there are for errors made to a poorly formed conscious.

I don't know how many apply with misdemeanors but I see a few make it through interview to offer of admission each year.

Sounds a lot like it's OK, I was drunk? If you get drunk and beat up your wife that doesn't show a character flaw? In my opinion, risking the lives of innocent people by getting behind the wheel intoxicated is MUCH more unfitting for a physician than copying a couple paragraphs on their writing assignment. Also, if you were going to school in China and had a paper in Chinese due the next day among other things, don't you think the stress could cause a lapse in judgment?

 

[LizzyM]

Sounds a lot like it's OK, I was drunk? If you get drunk and beat up your wife that doesn't show a character flaw? In my opinion, risking the lives of innocent people by getting behind the wheel intoxicated is MUCH more unfitting for a physician than copying a couple paragraphs on their writing assignment. Also, if you were going to school in China and had a paper in Chinese due the next day among other things, don't you think the stress could cause a lapse in judgment?

Violence, particularly domestic violence, is not tolerated and that was not one of my examples.

Would we expell a medical student who was nabbed for DUI in a roadside check? Would we dismiss a resident for the same? a faculty member? If we wouldn't throw them out, why wouldn't we consider someone who did the same before applying to medical school.

Cheating in an academic setting is different story.


Not sure what you are asking about China.... do Chinese people going to school in China cheat more often?

 

[MeowMeowCAT]

Kind of a lame thing to do for the professor. I understand rules should be followed and whatnot, but it would be wiser for the professor to have settled this on a personal basis then go outright set fire to your academic record.

I think this is some type of personality type though, where people get some sort of high and or thrill, basically get off on seeing people suffer. Professor's job is to teach the subject matter, not play the parent of the students. I don't condone cheating, plagiarizing, etc. but I also don't condone people blindly destroying other people's life, I would even say the latter is more of a serious offense than actually cheating.

Give an F for the work or something, so much more that you can do to effectively teach someone right from wrong than take the quick way out and have the student suffer everywhere, across their whole academic record.

...just ranting. But it feels like a lot of people underestimate how much **** people go through for college, and that a simple "Professor submitted my case to school for plagiarism" might as well be a charge for murder if you actually compare the severity of the punishments.

But that is probably why I would never want to work as a college faculty...I don't think I would have the balls nor pleasure of seeing someone's academic life crash in front of my eyes.

Sadism ain't cool.