Help please! Am I shooting for the stars or shooting myself in the foot?

[DoctorDrewOutsidetheLines]

@gonnif @gyngyn @Goro @LizzyM

I need all the science and math pre-reqs. I really want to get into top ranking schools and hopefully with nice financial aid packages. *crosses fingers and prays to God*

Sorry in advance to tag/bother the big guns, so I'll try to make this brief. As an older nontrad, I'm really confused about how this whole med school timeline works.

1. Since I'd be taking an inevitable gap year following submitting an application in June 2018, can I apply to med school knowing I'd still need a year of physics and take those requirements during the gap year? Or should I wait to apply until June 2019?

2. I'm registered for CC next semester. Summer 2016 I intend to either take two math classes at my state school, OR one math course and a summer research program. Then, I'll be taking my the rest of the classes through my post-bacc program. If I can't logistically take classes through my post-bacc 4 year, due to finances or commute, would taking classes at a shady public institution near my house make my application less desirable? I'm also considering SIU's MEDPREP following my science pre-reqs in case I need to boost my MCAT or GPA. I'm looking at 6-7 transcripts total. How would adcoms view this many different schools?

3. Is it possible to work as a scribe and an EMT while taking post-bacc classes?

4. How are publications viewed? If so, how many should one aim for and what types of journals?

5. How many foreign languages are necessary?

6. Can you please tell me how many shadowing hours are recommended, how many doctors are needed to shadow and whether shadowing is required if I get hired as a scribe?

7. Does it look better to volunteer at a teaching hospital affiliated with a major name medical school rather than a health care system? And if I'm an EMT already, do I need to volunteer at a hospital? Does EMT work count as clinical experience? How many hours of "clinical experience" are recommended for a successful application?

8. Does belonging to any student or professional medical associations look favorably on one's application? Same with global health volunteering?

9. How is starting a medical nonprofit looked upon by adcoms?

10. How would medical schools adcoms view obtaining a low-residency creative writing MFA or an online MSW prior to med school matriculation?

11. Is research required? Most programs I've seen are only for undergrads, not nontrads.

12. Should I apply Early Decision?

13. What's your personal opinion on 3 year med schools? Especially NYU's 3 year + residency?

Sorry for the novel. I know it seems like I'm a gunner, and maybe I am, but my stats don't show it yet.

Graduated from private prep hs: age 16, 4.0 SAT 1320 (on the old scale) ACT 30 composite
uGPA: 3.34 gGPA: 3.45
no BCPM gpa yet
no MCAT yet
old GRE: 1260
current age 32, F, URM, low SES
tons of leadership experience, internships, and volunteer experience throughout the course of my life because I naively still believe I can make the world a better place.
tons of disadvantages and hardships I really don't want to emphasize in my application

@Mad Jack and anyone else, mentors welcome to reply! Much appreciated. Thanks again <3

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Eccesignum]

Answering based on personal experience. Others may have other opinions.

1. Pre-req grades make up a large part of BCPM gpa, and your performce in your pre-reqs is looked at in your application. I wouldn't apply missing 2+ pre-reqs. Not to mention you need physics for the MCAT, and the MCAT to apply to med school. Don't handicap yourself.

2. Your undergrad instutition doesn't matter. I did my entire second degree at arguably the sketchiest of University of A Certain State With Many Schools out of necessity (there's no other branch within a two hour drive), and nobody has cared thusfar. The important part is 1) Do well and 2) Get an MCAT score that backs up those good grades. A 4.0 with a 495 MCAT will raise eyebrows even from Harvard.

They will see every transcript you ever had, so yes everything will be considered. Can't get around that.

3. Simultaneously? I'm assuming you mean EMT-Basic when you say EMT. It depends where you live and who you work for. Both transport jobs and emergency response jobs tend to involve 12-24 hour shifts. It is possible -- I work as an Advanced while going to school and so do several Paramedics I know -- but depends whether you can find a job that allows flexible scheduling. Mine for example (I'm employed by the county) allows self-scheduling for part-timers, and I work a second job to make ends meet. You'll have to look around.

I've never been a scribe so can't advise there.

4. They're a positive but not necessary. There's no hard number on how many. Most people don't even have one.

5. None, though won't hurt you. Just don't claim "fluency" in a language when all you can really say is "Hi, where's the bathroom?".

6. I've heard 50-100 hrs thrown around. Someone else may have more concise advice. But shadow a variety of different doctors, don't just spend all your time looking at one specialty (even if it's the one you're interested in right now).

7. No, it does not look "better". In volunteering they're looking for your committment to altruism, and a dedication to something you love that involves helping other people. Particularly if involved with populations you have a real interest in serving later on. Exactly where doesn't matter. If you're a paid EMT then yes, still volunteer. Paid is paid. Volunteer is volunteer. Yes, EMT experience is normally clinical experience (unless you're working for a transport company and are in a permanent role as a driver).

8. Can't hurt, but not necessary. I'm not a member of any student associations. It may hurt if you sign up for something and never do anything meaningful within it. Global volunteering is a tetchy subject around here because those standard one-week trips where you go somewhere with a bunch of unskilled pre-meds and spend most of your time ziplining can hurt you (see: voluntourism). Real work with a real aid organization for a solid amount of time is a different story. LizzyM has good opinions about that if you search.

9. I'm sure it helps, if that non-profit actually does something. Won't help much if it's just sitting there on paper.

10. Master's degrees in and of themselves won't help you for MD. They may provide interesting things to talk about but they're not going to help on the academic side. Since you're not even done with pre-reqs I would focus your energy on your cGPA and sGPA, neither of which count graduate-level grades.

11. No, it is not required. But it helps. There is plenty of research out there for those doing undergrad-level work; whether you're a non-trad or not is irrelevant. Look into LSAMP (Louis Stokes Alliance for Minority Participation) research branches on your campus. Talk to professors. Talk to grad students and ask what labs they're working in (they will often use undergrads for help).

12. Only in very specific circumstances where you're dead on target for a certain school. Generally no.

13. No idea.

 

[GreenDuck12]

Answers to questions below. Targeting a top medical school with a high gpa/mcat is never a guarantee. Focus on doing well in your classes and gaining volunteer experience. Then worry about where to apply once you have your application together.

1. Since I'd be taking an inevitable gap year following submitting an application in June 2018, can I apply to med school knowing I'd still need a year of physics and take those pre-reqs during the gap year? Or should I wait to apply until June 2019?

All required classes must be completed before applying to medical school. Additionally, physics is on the MCAT so you should take it before you take the mcat.

2. Is it wise to have more than one school for post-bacc transcripts? I'm registered for CC next semester. I will also be working full-time as an EMT. Summer 2016 I intend to either take statistics and calculus 1 at my state school, OR statistics and a summer research program hopefully.

Not sure on this one. Inevitably many non-trads take classes at a few schools in order to fit all the classes in.

Then, I'll be taking my the rest of the classes through my post-bacc program. If I can't logistically take classes through my post-bacc 4 year, would taking classes at a public institution near my house (in a bad neighborhood) make my application less desirable?

4 year university is a 4 year university. gen chem is gen chem.

I'm also considering SIU's MEDPREP following my science pre-reqs in case I need to boost my MCAT.

So, that's transcripts from my undergrad, grad (same school), semester at a grad school I withdrew from prior to grad, sciences at community college, state school, post-bacc 1, and post-bacc 2. Would schools look down on this path?

this is a lot of schools and I'm confused as to why you need to do two post pack programs?

3. Is it possible to work as a scribe and an EMT while taking post-bacc classes?

Focus on doing well in your classes. If you are doing well and have extra free time outside of volunteering, you can add more professional responsibilities.

4. Are publications to academic journals necessary? If so, how many and what kind?

Research oriented medical schools like research but it is considered an EC. Primary care oriented medical schools will view it as an EC

5. How many foreign languages are necessary?

Many students get in with one. Many students get in with multiple.

6. Can you please tell me how many shadowing hours are recommended, how many doctors are needed to shadow and whether shadowing is required if I get hired as a scribe?

7. Does it look better to volunteer at a teaching hospital affiliated with a major medical school rather than a health care system for name brand recognition? And if I'm an EMT already, do I need to volunteer at a hospital? Does EMT work count as clinical experience? How many hours of "clinical experience" are recommended for a successful application?

8. Does belonging to any student or professional medical associations look favorably on one's application? Same with global health volunteering?

It is considered an EC.

9. How is starting a medical nonprofit looked upon by adcoms?

It is considered an EC.

10. How would medical schools adcoms look at obtaining a low-residency creative writing MFA or an online MSW prior to med school matriculation?

I would be surprised if it factored in at all.

 

[DoctorDrewOutsidetheLines]

@Eccesignum Thanks for your response! Wanted to clarify.

3. My company does transport, but I'm not just a driver. They're also huge in the nation.
5. Fluent in 1, (ok rusty, but just tested into B2/C1 advanced intermediate level with their international ranking). I really want to learn Spanish.
7. I have plenty of volunteer experience outside of health care. Altruism not in question. I asked for name recognition because I realize to some, name matters. Possibly the schools I'm shooting for OOS may have heard of X hospital affiliated with Y med school instead of WTF Healthcare.
8. Thanks, will research that.
9. I'm hoping the nonprofit gets off the ground. It's a personal cause dear to my heart.
10. I'm not interested in using the MFA or MSW to get into med school. Those were both career paths I wanted to go into but I realized medicine will ultimate make the most impact and the others were hobbies (well social work fit in with all that SJW unpaid volunteer work I was doing). However, I recently realized they're not exclusive. Louise Aronson http://louisearonson.com/ has an MD and an MFA in Creative Writing as does a faculty member in a creative writing program I was researching.
11. Thanks! Will look into that.

Thanks again for your response! <3

 

[DoctorDrewOutsidetheLines]

@GreenDuck12 Thanks for your response.

2. The first post-bacc is structured for career-changers with no science pre-reqs. The second post-bacc is structured for URMs and is like a 2 year SMP with a track record of getting URMs into med school.
3. Work is necessary to live and pay for my post-bacc. Hence the EMT job. But it's a very low-paying gig. So I'm looking into scribing as well.

 

[Eccesignum]

@Eccesignum Thanks for your response! Wanted to clarify.

3. My company does transport, but I'm not just a driver. They're also huge in the nation.
5. Fluent in 1, (ok rusty, but just tested into B2/C1 advanced intermediate level with their international ranking). I really want to learn Spanish.
7. I have plenty of volunteer experience outside of health care. Altruism not in question. I asked for name recognition because I realize to some, name matters. Possibly the schools I'm shooting for OOS may have heard of X hospital affiliated with Y med school instead of WTF Healthcare.
8. Thanks, will research that.
9. I'm hoping the nonprofit gets off the ground. It's a personal cause dear to my heart.
10. I'm not interested in using the MFA or MSW to get into med school. Those were both career paths I wanted to go into but I realized medicine will ultimate make the most impact and the others were hobbies (well social work fit in with all that SJW unpaid volunteer work I was doing). However, I recently realized they're not exclusive. Louise Aronson http://louisearonson.com/ has an MD and an MFA in Creative Writing as does a faculty member in a creative writing program I was researching.
11. Thanks! Will look into that.

Thanks again for your response! <3

3. Then it'll be considered clinical experience.
5. Fine, but unlikely it'll even be discussed unless this is a language you use to interact with patients on the daily.
7. Again, doesn't matter. The important part is what you got out of it and what you did, not the name brand. If someone volunteers for the Grand High Poobah Organization of Yale University but gets nothing out of it, that's still going to be less interesting on an app than someone in rural nowhere who volunteers for a tiny hospice org but their story of growth is tremendous.
8. I've done international volunteering as an RN, with an established organization. I can talk to you about it if it's something you're interested in.
9. Cool.
10. Your call but again, I would focus on the pre-reqs and MCAT. Especially if you're also trying to work. It's a lot on a plate already, and you must do well.
11. Sure. I was an LSAMP researcher for several years on one project, it's a mind-broadening thing to get into. Also provides a (very small) stipend. Small as in minimum-wage, but even gas money helps.

 

[GreenDuck12]

@GreenDuck12 Thanks for your response.

2. The first post-bacc is structured for career-changers with no science pre-reqs. The second post-bacc is structured for URMs and is like a 2 year SMP with a track record of getting URMs into med school.
3. Work is necessary to live and pay for my post-bacc. Hence the EMT job. But it's a very low-paying gig. So I'm looking into scribing as well.

Wouldn't you be able to apply to medical schools after completing the pre-reqs?

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Answers to questions below. Targeting a top medical school with a high gpa/mcat is never a guarantee. Focus on doing well in your classes and gaining volunteer experience. Then worry about where to apply once you have your application together.

1. Since I'd be taking an inevitable gap year following submitting an application in June 2018, can I apply to med school knowing I'd still need a year of physics and take those pre-reqs during the gap year? Or should I wait to apply until June 2019?

All required classes must be completed before applying to medical school. Additionally, physics is on the MCAT so you should take it before you take the mcat.

2. Is it wise to have more than one school for post-bacc transcripts? I'm registered for CC next semester. I will also be working full-time as an EMT. Summer 2016 I intend to either take statistics and calculus 1 at my state school, OR statistics and a summer research program hopefully.

Not sure on this one. Inevitably many non-trads take classes at a few schools in order to fit all the classes in.

Then, I'll be taking my the rest of the classes through my post-bacc program. If I can't logistically take classes through my post-bacc 4 year, would taking classes at a public institution near my house (in a bad neighborhood) make my application less desirable?

4 year university is a 4 year university. gen chem is gen chem.

I'm also considering SIU's MEDPREP following my science pre-reqs in case I need to boost my MCAT.

So, that's transcripts from my undergrad, grad (same school), semester at a grad school I withdrew from prior to grad, sciences at community college, state school, post-bacc 1, and post-bacc 2. Would schools look down on this path?

this is a lot of schools and I'm confused as to why you need to do two post pack programs?

3. Is it possible to work as a scribe and an EMT while taking post-bacc classes?

Focus on doing well in your classes. If you are doing well and have extra free time outside of volunteering, you can add more professional responsibilities.

4. Are publications to academic journals necessary? If so, how many and what kind?

Research oriented medical schools like research but it is considered an EC. Primary care oriented medical schools will view it as an EC

5. How many foreign languages are necessary?

Many students get in with one. Many students get in with multiple.

6. Can you please tell me how many shadowing hours are recommended, how many doctors are needed to shadow and whether shadowing is required if I get hired as a scribe?

7. Does it look better to volunteer at a teaching hospital affiliated with a major medical school rather than a health care system for name brand recognition? And if I'm an EMT already, do I need to volunteer at a hospital? Does EMT work count as clinical experience? How many hours of "clinical experience" are recommended for a successful application?

8. Does belonging to any student or professional medical associations look favorably on one's application? Same with global health volunteering?

It is considered an EC.

9. How is starting a medical nonprofit looked upon by adcoms?

It is considered an EC.

10. How would medical schools adcoms look at obtaining a low-residency creative writing MFA or an online MSW prior to med school matriculation?

I would be surprised if it factored in at all.

The bolded is 100% not true.. The requisite courses must be completed by matriculation, NOT application.

 

[GreenDuck12]

The bolded is 100% not true.. The requisite courses must be completed by matriculation, NOT application.

Whoops! Meant to say should.

 

[LizzyM]

I need all the science and math pre-reqs. I really want to get into top ranking schools and hopefully with nice financial aid packages. *crosses fingers and prays to God*

Sorry in advance to tag/bother the big guns, so I'll try to make this brief. As an older nontrad, I'm really confused about how this whole med school timeline works.

1. Since I'd be taking an inevitable gap year following submitting an application in June 2018, can I apply to med school knowing I'd still need a year of physics and take those requirements during the gap year? Or should I wait to apply until June 2019?

Do not take the MCAT until you have taken all the pre-reqs. I know of one very successful guy who took only one semester of bio before taking the MCAT and he did fine but he was also a genius with a 3.99 GPA in engineering.

2. I'm registered for CC next semester. Summer 2016 I intend to either take two math classes at my state school, OR one math course and a summer research program. Then, I'll be taking my the rest of the classes through my post-bacc program. If I can't logistically take classes through my post-bacc 4 year, due to finances or commute, would taking classes at a shady public institution near my house make my application less desirable? I'm also considering SIU's MEDPREP following my science pre-reqs in case I need to boost my MCAT or GPA. I'm looking at 6-7 transcripts total. How would adcoms view this many different schools?

the number of transcripts don't really matter.

3. Is it possible to work as a scribe and an EMT while taking post-bacc classes?

It may be possible to work but keep in mind that GPA is most important.

4. How are publications viewed? If so, how many should one aim for and what types of journals?

Publications are gravy. Certainly not necessary. If you get one, you are lucky. What journal will depend on the topic area. Your PI will direct you in that regard.

5. How many foreign languages are necessary?

None. More gravy.

6. Can you please tell me how many shadowing hours are recommended, how many doctors are needed to shadow and whether shadowing is required if I get hired as a scribe?

Nice but not essential if you have other up-close and personal observations of physicians. I'd say at least 3 physicians and at least 50 hours would be more than enough. Certainly, there are people who do more.

7. Does it look better to volunteer at a teaching hospital affiliated with a major name medical school rather than a health care system?

No

And if I'm an EMT already, do I need to volunteer at a hospital?

It is helpful to have some exposure to settings where physicians work.

Does EMT work count as clinical experience?

Yes, but see above. It does help to work or volunteer in a setting where physicians work.

How many hours of "clinical experience" are recommended for a successful application?

At the very least, 2 hours per week or 15 weeks. 2-4 hours per week for a year would be better.

8. Does belonging to any student or professional medical associations look favorably on one's application? Same with global health volunteering?

No and no.

9. How is starting a medical nonprofit looked upon by adcoms?

More gravy

10. How would medical schools adcoms view obtaining a low-residency creative writing MFA or an online MSW prior to med school matriculation?

Snore....

11. Is research required? Most programs I've seen are only for undergrads, not nontrads.

Not required but everyone has it. Some schools with post-bac programs will have lab opportunities with research faculty available to non-trads.

12. Should I apply Early Decision?

Not if you have any hope of scholarship money. Early Decision says, "I will pick you over all others" A school in that situation has no incentive to throw money at you.

13. What's your personal opinion on 3 year med schools? Especially NYU's 3 year + residency?

I'm not familiar with them.

 

[DoctorDrewOutsidetheLines]

To everyone who replied:

 

[Goro]

I firmly believe in applying with the best possible app, and getting all pre-reqs out of the qay first.

1. Since I'd be taking an inevitable gap year following submitting an application in June 2018, can I apply to med school knowing I'd still need a year of physics and take those requirements during the gap year? Or should I wait to apply until June 2019?

No.
2. would taking classes at a shady public institution near my house make my application less desirable? I'm also considering SIU's MEDPREP following my science pre-reqs in case I need to boost my MCAT or GPA.

We cut non-trads more slack on stuff like this,.
I'm looking at 6-7 transcripts total. How would adcoms view this many different schools?

Only you can answer this.
3. Is it possible to work as a scribe and an EMT while taking post-bacc classes?

Always good. Keep in mind that it's uncommon for a pre-med to have pubs.
4. How are publications viewed? If so, how many should one aim for and what types of journals?

None. But Spanish is a useful skill.
5. How many foreign languages are necessary?

40-100. I'll let others comment on whether scribing is a substitute for shadowing.
6. Can you please tell me how many shadowing hours are recommended, how many doctors are needed to shadow and whether shadowing is required if I get hired as a scribe?

ANY patient contact experience is good. Personally, I have a soft spot for people who work with the elderly or the dying (nursing homes/hospice)

7. Does it look better to volunteer at a teaching hospital affiliated with a major name medical school rather than a health care system? And if I'm an EMT already, do I need to volunteer at a hospital?

It can be, but many of my Adcom colleagues have a jaded view of EMT (NOT paramedics) and consider them to be glorified taxi drivers.
Does EMT work count as clinical experience?

> 100, and the more the better. Of my advisees who have been accepted to really good schools, they have well over 500 hrs, in not low four digits' worth of experience.
How many hours of "clinical experience" are recommended for a successful application?

No and no.
8. Does belonging to any student or professional medical associations look favorably on one's application? Same with global health volunteering?

Very good
9. How is starting a medical nonprofit looked upon by adcoms?

Do this only if you're interested in stuff like this.
10. How would medical schools adcoms view obtaining a low-residency creative writing MFA or an online MSW prior to med school matriculation?

It helps, but again, non-trads get cut some slack. If you're only going to school, then you should try to get some it, if possible.
11. Is research required? Most programs I've seen are only for undergrads, not nontrads.

Only if you think you're a shoo-in.
12. Should I apply Early Decision?

Don't know enough. Personally, I think med school should be five years. let the screaming, wailing and gnashing of teeth begin.
13. What's your personal opinion on 3 year med schools? Especially NYU's 3 year + residency?