Help with rotations..

[Lamborghini1315]

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Alright i posted earlier in the gen.surgery forum but i guess this is the right place for my question. I like to set up my 3rd year electives in fall? I was wondering if you guys can point out some decent middle tier gen.surgery programs in northeast, midwest area..also doing bunch of surgical specialties during 3rd year electives with cores second half of the year will i be at a disadvantage in terms of being prepared? Should i consider doing a medicine elective in between surgical electives? I am particularly interested in rotating through
1.Gen.surg
2.ENT
3.Urology
4.Optho

Appreciate any feedback..

 

[bigDinLV]

I'd do your core stuff first. Get your FP, peds, psych, OB, IM out of the way. Get your feet wet, if you will spend a lot of time at one hospital you can learn your way around. Then, during your surgery rotations you'll be more comfortable with things, be more familiar with how the system works, and able to make a better impression - keeping in mind you may want a letter from one of your surgery preceptors.

 

[themudphud]

I agree with bigDin. Definitely get some warm up in before you start on the rotations you could potentially apply in. The extent of the warm up is up to you, but I would do at least 1 or 2 quarters of something else first. Ob/Gyn is a good one because you will get a little surgical exposure.

 

[Lamborghini1315]

I'd do your core stuff first. Get your FP, peds, psych, OB, IM out of the way. Get your feet wet, if you will spend a lot of time at one hospital you can learn your way around. Then, during your surgery rotations you'll be more comfortable with things, be more familiar with how the system works, and able to make a better impression - keeping in mind you may want a letter from one of your surgery preceptors.

I understand but at this point there's nothing i can do, i have chosen a schedule with non core's first and also having a vacation block right away gives me more time to take my boards. In an ideal world i would def do what you said but with my circumstances how should i go about it?

 

[Lamborghini1315]

I agree with bigDin. Definitely get some warm up in before you start on the rotations you could potentially apply in. The extent of the warm up is up to you, but I would do at least 1 or 2 quarters of something else first. Ob/Gyn is a good one because you will get a little surgical exposure.

You think? or am i better off doing something like optho for my first elective and then transition to gen.surgery? I know some rotation sites had prerequisites so that rules me out of certain places since i haven't done my cores yet..but optho was one of them that didn't require anything before hand. I am also curious as to how i will be viewed at a surgical rotation if they know its an elective and i am still a 3rd year? I will def read up on those books pertinent to my rotation to have a baseline knowledge about the field..

 

[smq123]

I like to set up my 3rd year electives in fall? I was wondering if you guys can point out some decent middle tier gen.surgery programs in northeast, midwest area

- It almost doesn't matter where you do your electives. They're not going to remember you by the time you are set to interview, and you're most likely not going to impress them enough to help you in any significant way.

Furthermore, it is VERY important to realize that when you rotate through those places in the falltime, you will be rotating with 4th year med students - and those MS4s NEED good letters of recommendation and good evals. So they get priority, and you will (likely) end up getting pushed aside into the boring surgical cases, and will probably have less time with the attendings and residents.

🙁 As crappy as that sounds, that is often what happens during those first few rotations. I'm afraid that if you rotated somewhere else during that time, you would find yourself with a sub-par experience.

I understand but at this point there's nothing i can do, i have chosen a schedule with non core's first and also having a vacation block right away gives me more time to take my boards. In an ideal world i would def do what you said but with my circumstances how should i go about it?

- All this depends on what you think you might like to do. You're interested in a surgical field, correct?

You think? or am i better off doing something like optho for my first elective and then transition to gen.surgery? I know some rotation sites had prerequisites so that rules me out of certain places since i haven't done my cores yet..but optho was one of them that didn't require anything before hand. I am also curious as to how i will be viewed at a surgical rotation if they know its an elective and i am still a 3rd year? I will def read up on those books pertinent to my rotation to have a baseline knowledge about the field..

- Ophtho is not going to help you for surgery. At all.

- OB/gyn IS going to help you for surgery. The biggest thing that prevents people from doing well in surgery is that they do not know how to be useful, especially in the OR. They don't know what to touch, what not to touch, how to scrub, how to help move patients, how to help set up, how to write a procedure note, etc. Gynecology, though, CAN teach those skills...and very few surgeons really care about what grade you got in OB/gyn.

ENT and urology, if you're not interested in either, might also help. Keep in mind, though, that these are extremely competitive fields, and the MS4s on your rotation are going to be extremely....driven.

- Reading up in books isn't going to help as much. You DO need to read, but reading a book isn't going to teach you how to round, how to help with wound dressings, how to help your team, etc.

 

[Lamborghini1315]

- It almost doesn't matter where you do your electives. They're not going to remember you by the time you are set to interview, and you're most likely not going to impress them enough to help you in any significant way.

Furthermore, it is VERY important to realize that when you rotate through those places in the falltime, you will be rotating with 4th year med students - and those MS4s NEED good letters of recommendation and good evals. So they get priority, and you will (likely) end up getting pushed aside into the boring surgical cases, and will probably have less time with the attendings and residents.

🙁 As crappy as that sounds, that is often what happens during those first few rotations. I'm afraid that if you rotated somewhere else during that time, you would find yourself with a sub-par experience.



- All this depends on what you think you might like to do. You're interested in a surgical field, correct?



- Ophtho is not going to help you for surgery. At all.

- OB/gyn IS going to help you for surgery. The biggest thing that prevents people from doing well in surgery is that they do not know how to be useful, especially in the OR. They don't know what to touch, what not to touch, how to scrub, how to help move patients, how to help set up, how to write a procedure note, etc. Gynecology, though, CAN teach those skills...and very few surgeons really care about what grade you got in OB/gyn.

ENT and urology, if you're not interested in either, might also help. Keep in mind, though, that these are extremely competitive fields, and the MS4s on your rotation are going to be extremely....driven.

- Reading up in books isn't going to help as much. You DO need to read, but reading a book isn't going to teach you how to round, how to help with wound dressings, how to help your team, etc.

Thanx for some valuable suggestions, it seems like i need to do ob/gyn first to get my feet wet. I have a feeling that i will be alongside with a lot of 4th years fighting for more exposure. However, is it going to be detrimental if i revisit the site in my 4th year? I mean atleast during my 3rd year if i can get to know people and possibly come back there to reinforce my interest in the program?

 

[bigDinLV]

Thanx for some valuable suggestions, it seems like i need to do ob/gyn first to get my feet wet. I have a feeling that i will be alongside with a lot of 4th years fighting for more exposure. However, is it going to be detrimental if i revisit the site in my 4th year? I mean atleast during my 3rd year if i can get to know people and possibly come back there to reinforce my interest in the program?

That would work.. Just remember to do your 4th year auditions before interview season, during interview season can be a plus or minus. If you are at a program and doing a great job while they are interviewing and do it during that time it might be good. The down side to auditions during interview season is that you might be on an audition and have to take a bit of time off for other interviews. Downside to doing your audition in July, August, or September is that they have to remember you in January or Febuarywhen they do the rank list.

Get letters from programs that you audition at, particularly good if you want to end up there.

 

[anon-y-mouse]

Alright i posted earlier in the gen.surgery forum but i guess this is the right place for my question. I like to set up my 3rd year electives in fall? I was wondering if you guys can point out some decent middle tier gen.surgery programs in northeast, midwest area..also doing bunch of surgical specialties during 3rd year electives with cores second half of the year will i be at a disadvantage in terms of being prepared? Should i consider doing a medicine elective in between surgical electives? I am particularly interested in rotating through
1.Gen.surg
2.ENT
3.Urology
4.Optho

Appreciate any feedback..

what the hell? How can you possibly do electives before cores?! That makes absolutely no sense at all. Honestly, what was your medical school thinking?? I would try to get out of that asap. Anyway, you are going to look pretty bad if you don't have any sort of core knowledge of practical medicine -- I recommend you try to switch so you can do Internal Medicine or General Surgery as a core at your school's teaching hospital... there is a LOT of difference between the first two years and the last two years of med school. You have to learn how to be a good junior medical student first before you even think about doing electives / going somewhere... like writing notes, being efficient with ward work, paperwork (ugh), anticipating the needs of your residents, working within the medical hierarchy/framework/hospital setting. You've got a high chance of looking horrible with all the 4th years who've already finished their cores, trying to match at that particular school since these would be your first rotations... If you can at least do some ob/gyn (even though that's super nutrasweet / 'surgery light') then that may help somewhat, but the most prudent thing to do is switch so you can get your cores knocked out.

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

what the hell? How can you possibly do electives before cores?! That makes absolutely no sense at all. Honestly, what was your medical school thinking?? I would try to get out of that asap. Anyway, you are going to look pretty bad if you don't have any sort of core knowledge of practical medicine -- I recommend you try to switch so you can do Internal Medicine or General Surgery as a core at your school's teaching hospital... there is a LOT of difference between the first two years and the last two years of med school. You have to learn how to be a good junior medical student first before you even think about doing electives / going somewhere... like writing notes, being efficient with ward work, paperwork (ugh), anticipating the needs of your residents, working within the medical hierarchy/framework/hospital setting. You've got a high chance of looking horrible with all the 4th years who've already finished their cores, trying to match at that particular school since these would be your first rotations... If you can at least do some ob/gyn (even though that's super nutrasweet / 'surgery light') then that may help somewhat, but the most prudent thing to do is switch so you can get your cores knocked out.

Wow, way to make it sound all "doomsday" like. I don't think it's that bad, half our class has core 2nd.

 

[anon-y-mouse]

Wow, way to make it sound all "doomsday" like. I don't think it's that bad, half our class has core 2nd.

Have you ever had a rotation? I'm not sure if you have or haevn't yet, but if you haven't, I don't think your "I don't think it's that bad" comment has any weight to it, since you have very little idea of what you're getting into. Cores => way more important and 'formative' than electives.

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

Have you ever had a rotation? I'm not sure if you have or haevn't yet, but if you haven't, I don't think your "I don't think it's that bad" comment has any weight to it, since you have very little idea of what you're getting into. Cores => way more important and 'formative' than electives.

No, I haven't. Could you not spend your 1st semester doing "core-like" rotations? Plus, a 1st month of vacation sounds ideal since we get no time for dedicated boards prep. I'm thinking about switching from core 1st to core 2nd, but I'm not sure yet.

Maybe we don't know what we're getting into and how much a difference it will be b/w core 1st and core 2nd. What do you mean by "formative?"

 

[anon-y-mouse]

No, I haven't. Could you not spend your 1st semester doing "core-like" rotations? Plus, a 1st month of vacation sounds ideal since we get no time for dedicated boards prep. I'm thinking about switching from core 1st to core 2nd, but I'm not sure yet.

Maybe we don't know what we're getting into and how much a difference it will be b/w core 1st and core 2nd. What do you mean by "formative?"

I have no idea what you're talking about in your first paragraph, with the core-like rotations, a month of vacation, etc. No schools offer 'dedicated board prep time' as far as I know, it's pretty much 4-6 weeks "vacation" between 2nd and 3rd year, which people use for boards, and get a couple of weeks off after they study for 4 weeks.

If you can get your core rotations done early, that will be absolutely the best thing for you. What I mean by formative is that you'll learn the practical and logistical skills you'll use for every other elective rotation from your core rotations (not to mention medical knowledge). There are just some inscrutable "expected" things you will have mastered by doing your core rotations, and it's not like they're going to teach you that stuff if you start with like rheumatology or something. Think of your core rotations as your foundation building blocks -- you need them, or your structure won't really stand. Again, congrats I guess for getting core rotations first, but I am so shocked that there's a medical school out there that would make half its students start with elective rotations. That makes absolutely no sense and is out of touch with reality.

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

I have no idea what you're talking about in your first paragraph, with the core-like rotations, a month of vacation, etc. No schools offer 'dedicated board prep time' as far as I know, it's pretty much 4-6 weeks "vacation" between 2nd and 3rd year, which people use for boards, and get a couple of weeks off after they study for 4 weeks.

If you can get your core rotations done early, that will be absolutely the best thing for you. What I mean by formative is that you'll learn the practical and logistical skills you'll use for every other elective rotation from your core rotations (not to mention medical knowledge). There are just some inscrutable "expected" things you will have mastered by doing your core rotations, and it's not like they're going to teach you that stuff if you start with like rheumatology or something. Think of your core rotations as your foundation building blocks -- you need them, or your structure won't really stand. Again, congrats I guess for getting core rotations first, but I am so shocked that there's a medical school out there that would make half its students start with elective rotations. That makes absolutely no sense and is out of touch with reality.

I guess what I meant in the 1st paragraph is this. Our Spring semester of year 2 ends at the end of May. Then we have 1 week of boards live prep via Kaplan. That leaves us with the 2nd week of June thru middle of 4th week of June to take the boards. Rotations start June 29th. So, we don't have the 4-6 weeks off really in between. So, my point was that if one had Vacation 1st (via a core 2nd schedule), then that gives one 1 extra month to prep for boards, take it, and be ready for a selective or elective. I was saying that let's say he's doing his core at a certain hospital (hospital X), could he not do rotations similar to the core ones during his selectives/electives, giving him a double dose of things similar to learn for when he's soon to begin his cores during the 2nd semester of 3rd year?

I guess I'm fortunate to have received core 1st. I didn't think it mattered a whole lot but I guess I'm mistakened. Hopefully core 2nd won't be a huge disadvantage for those who received it.

 

[Lamborghini1315]

what the hell? How can you possibly do electives before cores?! That makes absolutely no sense at all. Honestly, what was your medical school thinking?? I would try to get out of that asap. Anyway, you are going to look pretty bad if you don't have any sort of core knowledge of practical medicine -- I recommend you try to switch so you can do Internal Medicine or General Surgery as a core at your school's teaching hospital... there is a LOT of difference between the first two years and the last two years of med school. You have to learn how to be a good junior medical student first before you even think about doing electives / going somewhere... like writing notes, being efficient with ward work, paperwork (ugh), anticipating the needs of your residents, working within the medical hierarchy/framework/hospital setting. You've got a high chance of looking horrible with all the 4th years who've already finished their cores, trying to match at that particular school since these would be your first rotations... If you can at least do some ob/gyn (even though that's super nutrasweet / 'surgery light') then that may help somewhat, but the most prudent thing to do is switch so you can get your cores knocked out.

ah my friend instead of suggesting me to pick a fight with my med school can you give me some pointers that might make my clinical journey fruitful? I really don't want a philosophical debate about what's right, i am looking on the bright side having electives in 3rd year gives me an opportunity to explore programs that have drawn my interest. I really can't switch to cores at this point since i will be hard pressed with time to study for boards, unfortunately the time i get off before boards isn't sufficient to take 2 board exams. So i chose a schedule with cores second, while sticking with non cores first which consists a vacation block in place of what would have been a core rotation. I am going to work on starting with ob/gyn since that seems to be the consensus, i know i might have an uphill battle but i plan on revisiting one of the sites again during 4th year perhaps that can showcase my determination. Alright just shoot any suggestions...

 

[Doctor Bagel]

ah my friend instead of suggesting me to pick a fight with my med school can you give me some pointers that might make my clinical journey fruitful? I really don't want a philosophical debate about what's right, i am looking on the bright side having electives in 3rd year gives me an opportunity to explore programs that have drawn my interest. I really can't switch to cores at this point since i will be hard pressed with time to study for boards, unfortunately the time i get off before boards isn't sufficient to take 2 board exams. So i chose a schedule with cores second, while sticking with non cores first which consists a vacation block in place of what would have been a core rotation. I am going to work on starting with ob/gyn since that seems to be the consensus, i know i might have an uphill battle but i plan on revisiting one of the sites again during 4th year perhaps that can showcase my determination. Alright just shoot any suggestions...

Since your stuck, your best bet is probably to do rotations in places you're not that interested in. I just don't see how you could wow anybody coming in and doing electives when you haven't had any core rotations yet. Focus on learning what you can and seeing what specialties you like without worrying about being a rock star.

And honestly this is something to take up with your school eventually. It seems like their scheduling puts students at a disadvantage, so maybe they can switch it for next year.

 

[Lamborghini1315]

Since your stuck, your best bet is probably to do rotations in places you're not that interested in. I just don't see how you could wow anybody coming in and doing electives when you haven't had any core rotations yet. Focus on learning what you can and seeing what specialties you like without worrying about being a rock star.

And honestly this is something to take up with your school eventually. It seems like their scheduling puts students at a disadvantage, so maybe they can switch it for next year.

Good point, i might still explore the fields i am passionate about but not in places i would probably end up applying. I would def need to be seasoned before i can impress anyone and with my schedule all i am hoping for is a step up in my confidence lets say in a gen. surgery rotation so i can eventually audition at a good program to look like a rock star.