Hematology/Oncology 2020-2021 Fellowship Application Cycle

[ShuperNewbie]

I trained at Monte and never put in a foley, only did emergent blood draws and abgs and rarely put in IVs. We had appointment schedulers, and Though the prevailing sense was is that nyc training=scut work is like a decade behind reality. I also trained at a NYC academic hem/onc fellowship And the IM training wasn’t dissimilar in the lack of scutwork. Overworked is a different thing and doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with these non educational activities

Having come from an academic NYC program too, I can second whoknows. I don't know what these other people are talking about but having spent the better part of a decade here, yes scutwork is a thing but the amount that it affects your day to day is probably overblown. This might not be as true in other programs around the city but this does seem to hold true at least at the major academic places. I have done virtually no scutwork at the main private hospital. Also NYU doesn't have unionized nursing staff. The nurses are fantastic and could def go toe to toe with any nurses anywhere else in the nation. In fact one of our nurses is actually a de-unionizing consultant lol.

In lights of the comments above about NYC programs, I am wondering is that also present at Mount Sinai too? My 1-3 can really go in any order. Am I making a mistake in ranking UTSW and Mt Sinai lower than Brown?

Lol I don't think anyone is going to look at a Brown graduate and think "wow you must have made some bad choices in life." Conversely I don't think anyone is going to look at UTSW or Sinai and bow at your feet. This seems like a perfectly rational way to rank things and I don't think going to any of these programs over another will necessarily close any doors for you. Just go where you think you'll be happy honestly. Three years is not an insignificant amount of time. Might as well go where you'll enjoy the experience. Having interviewed at Brown for residency I kinda loved it and wouldn't blame anyone for ranking it first.

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[collegestud2013]

Having come from an academic NYC program too, I can second whoknows. I don't know what these other people are talking about but having spent the better part of a decade here, yes scutwork is a thing but the amount that it affects your day to day is probably overblown. This might not be as true in other programs around the city but this does seem to hold true at least at the major academic places. I have done virtually no scutwork at the main private hospital. Also NYU doesn't have unionized nursing staff. The nurses are fantastic and could def go toe to toe with any nurses anywhere else in the nation. In fact one of our nurses is actually a de-unionizing consultant lol.

For NYU I assume you're only talking about Tisch? That's probably the exception and NYU rotates a lot of their residents at Bellevue which I'm told is super scut heavy. And as the previous poster mentioned it's worse at AECOM/Montefiore and even worse at Jacobi. And even way worse at the IMG-heavy programs like Maimonides, Downstate, Brookdale, St. Barbanas, Lincoln.

 

[whoknows2012]

For NYU I assume you're only talking about Tisch? That's probably the exception and NYU rotates a lot of their residents at Bellevue which I'm told is super scut heavy. And as the previous poster mentioned it's worse at AECOM/Montefiore and even worse at Jacobi. And even way worse at the IMG-heavy programs like Maimonides, Downstate, Brookdale, St. Barbanas, Lincoln.

The discussion was centered on academic nyc programs. No one denies the the latter half of programs cont to struggle with this. This @ShuperNewbie by virtue of being an NYU IM resident also spent a lot of time at Bellevue soo...

 

[ShuperNewbie]

Yeah Bellevue ain't easy but everyone loves it . No denying that it's relatively scut heavy. I'm not gonna sugar coat it, it's a lot of work. And while heme/onc fellows are generally pretty protected from this, they're not completely immune. But everyone enjoys it because you get a TON of autonomy and really get to feel like a "real doctor" doing real doctor things.

 

[pseudoprogression]

Thank ya'll very much!

 

[oncology2021]

does a program director emailing a program you interviewed at help your chances of them ranking you higher?

 

[gutonc]

does a program director emailing a program you interviewed at help your chances of them ranking you higher?

No. But if it makes you feel better, go ahead.

 

[Cdm279]

Looking at the NRMP site it shows some of the programs I applied to have less spots then previous listed when I applied, MSK now is looking for 11 and Cornell 3. I remember on my MSK interview they said it was funding issues 2/2 to COVID, not sure about Cornell.

 

[WildflAuer]

Hi! Yet another rank list SOS (please help, @gutonc!). Priorities are heme, private practice vs pracademics with the option of academics if I change my mind, and quality of life. Is this an insane order?

1. Brown
2. UVA
3. Dartmouth
4. UMass
5. Tufts
6. Levine Cancer Institute
7. Wake Forest
8. VCU

 

[Oncolizumab1]

Hi! Yet another rank list SOS (please help, @gutonc!). Priorities are heme, private practice vs pracademics with the option of academics if I change my mind, and quality of life. Is this an insane order?

1. Brown
2. UVA
3. Dartmouth
4. UMass
5. Tufts
6. Levine Cancer Institute
7. Wake Forest
8. VCU

Not gutonc, but seems reasonable to me based on how you liked things. VCU did seem a bit tough

 

[gutonc]

Hi! Yet another rank list SOS (please help, @gutonc!). Priorities are heme, private practice vs pracademics with the option of academics if I change my mind, and quality of life. Is this an insane order?

1. Brown
2. UVA
3. Dartmouth
4. UMass
5. Tufts
6. Levine Cancer Institute
7. Wake Forest
8. VCU

Seems fine to me. Does Brown still farm out their BMT rotation?

 

[WildflAuer]

Seems fine to me. Does Brown still farm out their BMT rotation?

Thanks to you both for the input!
Yes, they do, @gutonc - to Dana Farber these days.

 

[onc80021]

Hi everyone,

Would appreciate help in raking these programs:

Univ Minnesota
Montefiore
Loyola
Univ Illinois at Chicago
Baylor
Tufts
UConn
U of Cincinnati
GW
UT Houston

Thank you!

 

[gutonc]

Hi everyone,

Would appreciate help in raking these programs:

Univ Minnesota
Montefiore
Loyola
Univ Illinois at Chicago
Baylor
Tufts
UConn
U of Cincinnati
GW
UT Houston

Thank you!

Goals? UMinn at the top regardless.

 

[onc80021]

Goals? UMinn at the top regardless.

Solid tumor oncology, specially head and neck and thoracic. Thank you for your help!

 

[heme_doc]

Hello, please advise on following ROL, interested in hematology (undecided about a specific area but would do something except Leukemia/BMT), clinical research

Ohio State Univ
Karmanos WSU
U Alabama
Mayo Jacksonville
Penn State Hershey
ECU

Would appreciate the input. Thanks!

 

[Helppp]

I need help in choosing between wake forest ,MCG and LSU
Thank you

 

[HemOnc2021]

Not gutonc, but seems reasonable to me based on how you liked things. VCU did seem a bit tough

In which way did VCU seem a bit tough? Did anyone else feel this way?

 

[Eragon]

Hi everyone,
I need your help ranking these programs:

U Maryland
Baylor Houston
Methodist Houston
UT health
VCU
UofL
U Missouri-Collumbia
Northwell Long Island

Thanks in advance!

 

[ScarMarkMission]

I need help in choosing between wake forest ,MCG and LSU
Thank you

Assuming location is an equivocal factor for you, I would say wake forest definitely number 1, and MCG = LSU

 

[Helppp]

Assuming location is an equivocal factor for you, I would say wake forest definitely number 1, and MCG = LSU

thank you
Do u mind mentioning why wake should lead.
Any down side to MCG?

 

[ScarMarkMission]

thank you
Do u mind mentioning why wake should lead.
Any down side to MCG?

Assuming you have interest in academics - Wake Forest mainly for flexibility and breath in research opportunity. MCG is a smaller academic program but seems to be growing (recruited faculty from MD Anderson to direct cancer center).

 

[leukemia18]

Hi everyone,
Posting for the first time after months of lurking...
I need guidance with figuring out my rank list and would appreciate some insight.

How would you guys rank these program?

-Houston Methodist
-University of Florida
-VCU
-Stony Brook
-Penn State
-Levine Cancer Institute
-City of Hope
-SUNY Upstate
-Ochsner
-UConn
-UMass
-Baystate
-George Washington
-Ascension St. John's
-Jacobi/Albert Einstein

Thank you!

 

[Helppp]

Assuming you have interest in academics - Wake Forest mainly for flexibility and breath in research opportunity. MCG is a smaller academic program but seems to be growing (recruited faculty from MD Anderson to direct cancer center).

Thank you

 

[osprey099]

Can I get some help ranking the following? Interested in private practice.

1. Fox Chase
2. UTSW
3. Oregon
4. Ohio State
5. VCU
6. Brown
7. Tufts

 

[gutonc]

Can I get some help ranking the following? Interested in private practice.

1. Fox Chase
2. UTSW
3. Oregon
4. Ohio State
5. VCU
6. Brown
7. Tufts

Looks fine. If you match at your #3, you can come do community rotations in my clinic.

 

[HemeOncHopeful19]

Hi everyone,
Posting for the first time after months of lurking...
I need guidance with figuring out my rank list and would appreciate some insight.

How would you guys rank these program?

-Houston Methodist
-University of Florida
-VCU
-Stony Brook
-Penn State
-Levine Cancer Institute
-City of Hope
-SUNY Upstate
-Ochsner
-UConn
-UMass
-Baystate
-George Washington
-Ascension St. John's
-Jacobi/Albert Einstein

Thank you!

How did you like them? Btw, you deserve bonus points for spelling Ochsner correctly.

 

[samurai96396]

Interested in solids and leaning towards academics but haven't ruled out hybrid/pp model. Goal is to be an attending in Chicago. Thanks in advance!

1. NYU
2. UTSW
3. Loyola
4. UIC
5. Indiana
6. Iowa
7. Cincinnati
8. Louisville

I keep flipping #1 and #2

 

[Mariojj]

Need advice in ranking these programs.

Honestly I’m undecided about solid vs Liquid. Did research in malignant heme but may want to shift to onc. Interested in clinical research and trials only. I’m not against going to Private. So want a program that’s not highly differentiated from D1. My preference for fellowship is a city that is relatively affordable for a family with kid and a relatively better work life balance.

Does anyone have thoughts on CCF and karmanos? I like both places. Is it true that If I want to find a job in area far away from Midwest like TX/CA/FL after fellowship, I should go to a more well known name for training? The overall education in CCF seems strong and balanced. PD is heartwarmingly nice. But they are primary on floor, no resident, q5 call schedule, probably means a very busy service? Also no fellow continuity clinic.

Rank list
Karmanos
CCF
UMinn
CWRU
UCSD
Tufts
Baylor

Thank you in advance. Appreciate any input.

My recommendation is you should put CCF below Baylor and UCSD for sure. If you are interested in malignant heme, CCF may be the right place for you but if you are interested in solid tumors I suggest you consider ranking other programs higher on your list
You are right, the PD is very nice and heartwarming. But there are other important factors that they don't tell you on the interview day: they don't tell you that CCF has lost many big names specially in the GU, thoracic, GI, melanoma, ... all very successful people in researchband clinical trisls, ...and it has been more tgan a year that they are trying to higher new faculties for some of the positions. But, if research is not an important factor for you then you can consider ranking it high on your list.

 

[Mariojj]

Can I get some help ranking the following? Interested in private practice.

1. Fox Chase
2. UTSW
3. Oregon
4. Ohio State
5. VCU
6. Brown
7. Tufts

Hi! Yet another rank list SOS (please help, @gutonc!). Priorities are heme, private practice vs pracademics with the option of academics if I change my mind, and quality of life. Is this an insane order?

1. Brown
2. UVA
3. Dartmouth
4. UMass
5. Tufts
6. Levine Cancer Institute
7. Wake Forest
8. VCU

It was surprising to see Brown on the top for hem/onc. Brown University is reputable specially for undergrad programs and the med school is one of the bests. But the hem/onc fellowshio program is not a strong one. Even int med residents at Brown rank other hemonc programs higher unless they have personal reasons to stay in the area.

 

[gutonc]

Interested in solids and leaning towards academics but haven't ruled out hybrid/pp model. Goal is to be an attending in Chicago. Thanks in advance!

1. NYU
2. UTSW
3. Loyola
4. UIC
5. Indiana
6. Iowa
7. Cincinnati
8. Louisville

I keep flipping #1 and #2

Does NYU still have you do an entire year of benign heme as a first year fellow? Because I left that interview at lunch once they dropped that bomb on me.

Rank them how you liked them. And statistically, you'll go into PP. Just throwing that out there.

 

[ShuperNewbie]

Does NYU still have you do an entire year of benign heme as a first year fellow? Because I left that interview at lunch once they dropped that bomb on me.

Rank them how you liked them. And statistically, you'll go into PP. Just throwing that out there.

Haha nah they don't do that anymore. Maybe they heard your feedback @gutonc . They're much more traditional now, w/ 18mo clinical and 18mo research. They've also cut down their clinical obligations quite a bit. The new PD (for those of you who met him) is NOT a touchy feely guy but he's the chief of hematology and knows how to drive a hard bargain, so he's been pretty successful at talking with hospital leadership to limit the clinical responsibilities of the fellows.

 

[gutonc]

Haha nah they don't do that anymore. Maybe they heard your feedback @gutonc . They're much more traditional now, w/ 18mo clinical and 18mo research. They've also cut down their clinical obligations quite a bit. The new PD (for those of you who met him) is NOT a touchy feely guy but he's the chief of hematology and knows how to drive a hard bargain, so he's been pretty successful at talking with hospital leadership to limit the clinical responsibilities of the fellows.

Good to know they finally realized it doesn’t take a whole year to figure out how to prescribe Eliquis, Lovenox, Aranesp, IVIG and rituximab.

 

[yescarta]

Guys need help
which one is better for malignant hematology? Iowa or Loyola? no preference of city
any help will be appreciated

 

[WildflAuer]

It was surprising to see Brown on the top for hem/onc. Brown University is reputable specially for undergrad programs and the med school is one of the bests. But the hem/onc fellowshio program is not a strong one. Even int med residents at Brown rank other hemonc programs higher unless they have personal reasons to stay in the area.

Can you elaborate on why you've heard Brown is not a strong fellowship program?

 

[ShuperNewbie]

Can you elaborate on why you've heard Brown is not a strong fellowship program?

Lol it's a fine program. I think the poster just meant to say it's "not as strong proportionately" when compared to its med school and residency program but it's still really strong, especially in regards to clinical training. It may not have as much going on research wise as some of its peers but it's certainly not research-less (and let's face it, 80% of folks here probably won't do any research at all after they graduate so is this really a make or break factor?). Also I got the impression that while it did offer you tons of research and mentorship opportunities, it doesn't pressure you take advantage of them like some programs do (e.g. I have plenty of friends at these "ivory tower" top tier programs who I distinctly remember having lots of "I hate research" conversations with during residency who are now... guess what... on track for research careers lol) and tends to support people who want to go into private practice. Overall, it just genuinely seems like a supportive and tight knit program.

Honestly... no one's going to look down on Brown lol. And if anyone makes it seem that way, then take it with a grain of salt. Bottom line is: if you liked it a lot then just rank it high and don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

 

[WildflAuer]

Thanks @ShuperNewbie! Those are my feelings exactly. Love the people, like the structure, love the area, happy without major research focus.

 

[Eragon]

Any insights on Baylor college? How clinically heavy is it?

 

[HemeOncHopeful19]

Any insights on Baylor college? How clinically heavy is it?

Generally 22 clinical months in the first 2 years and then most of the fellows that want to do a research year do one. 5 of 8 fellows in the PGY6 class are doing a research year currently (and a 6th is doing 6 months of research).

 

[Eragon]

Generally 22 clinical months in the first 2 years and then most of the fellows that want to do a research year do one. 5 of 8 fellows in the PGY6 class are doing a research year currently (and a 6th is doing 6 months of research).

Thank you so much!

 

[Enasidenib]

Hi guys,

Hope all is well and you are ready to certify your Rank Order List!. I am a current fellow here at GW in DC and wanted to give a recommendation to those looking in to our program or if you have friends who are thinking about ranking GW for heme/onc.

Sadly our program is at the brink of closing. We unfortunately had changes in the leadership including the director of Cancer Center, which in turn led to a massive attending departure and few plans in place to make up for it. I understand some may have limited options and would prefer to match rather than scramble or go unmatched, but from someone in the inside, I would strongly advise you against ranking GW high on your list.

I hold no grudges, I am thankful for having some great mentorship and attendings that did the most they could to help us advance our career and get to our goals but regrettably the culture left behind will not be fixable in the short term. I hope everyone who is applying this season ends up in their dream or ideal program, one that makes them happy, and if that is your goal I would certainly avoid GW.

@gutonc I hope me giving my 2 cents doesn't upset you, but I believe its unethical to not let applicants know the truth of our program.

 

[Dr. Buc]

Thoughts on UF program? Interested in academic. I don't really see their alumni anywhere else. They have a new chairman and seem to be trying to be more research focused, but curious about their reputation. My other top programs:

CCF
UM
UNC
IU
Arizona
UK
UT-SA

Appreciate your thoughts!

 

[gutonc]

Thoughts on UF program? Interested in academic. I don't really see their alumni anywhere else. They have a new chairman and seem to be trying to be more research focused, but curious about their reputation. My other top programs:

CCF
UM
UNC
IU
Arizona
UK
UT-SA

Appreciate your thoughts!

Which M and K?

 

[ShuperNewbie]

UM? U Mich or U Minn or U Miami or U Missouri or U Montana or U.....

 

[Dr. Buc]

Which M and K?

Miami and kentucky!

 

[ShuperNewbie]

Thoughts on UF program? Interested in academic. I don't really see their alumni anywhere else. They have a new chairman and seem to be trying to be more research focused, but curious about their reputation. My other top programs:

CCF
UM
UNC
IU
Arizona
UK
UT-SA

Appreciate your thoughts!

I gotta say if you're interested in academics then UNC is probably your top program here. They've just got a lot of opportunity overall especially since they make their own CAR-T cells. IU has one of the strongest GU programs in the nation. Location wise though, I'd say Miami is probably your best, and CCF may have that glitzy US News name brand but when it comes down to it, it's such a meat grinder that fellow teaching tends to suffer (volume is king at CCF). If it were me and I didn't care about location, I'd probably do UNC>IU=CCF>Miami but go where your heart desires. If you're interested in academics you probably wouldn't suffer at all at any of these aforementioned programs. Also I didn't really apply to any of these programs besides UNC so this is mostly just heard through the grapevine from either current fellows/faculty at these programs or recruiters that I know of.

 

[ShuperNewbie]

Hi guys, I would love to have advice in ranking. My current thought is:

1. ECU
2. Memorial Healthcare
3. Tower Health
4. Roger Williams
5. East Tennessee State Univ

What yall think? Not bound to location. Will go anywhere I match. Mainly for 2~4, I cant really make decision.

I'd probably rank it just like that but what do I know haha

 

[lulu09]

Generally 22 clinical months in the first 2 years and then most of the fellows that want to do a research year do one. 5 of 8 fellows in the PGY6 class are doing a research year currently (and a 6th is doing 6 months of research).

See, what I don't get about this is why some fellowship programs continue to insist on their fellows doing more than 18 months of clinical work which is the minimum mandated by the ACGME. If you're serious about academics you need all the time you can get in fellowship to do research, and clearly they are taxing their fellows by having them do research years to get into academics. I truly don't see a purpose of this other than to scut the fellows out and have them provide free labor. (on the flip side, I suppose it's good practice if you want to do PP, but even so you can just elect to do more clinical months at a 18-month program instead rather than signing everyone to do 22 months)

Thus, I strongly recommend people to take the number of clinical months into account when ranking programs and go for the 18-month programs whenever possible. I interviewed at a program who told me they did 27 months clinical and it quickly dropped to the bottom of my list (almost didn't rank).

Thoughts on UF program? Interested in academic. I don't really see their alumni anywhere else. They have a new chairman and seem to be trying to be more research focused, but curious about their reputation. My other top programs:

CCF
UM
UNC
IU
Arizona
UK
UT-SA

Appreciate your thoughts!

I also only interviewed at UNC in the list above and I loved that program. The PD rocks and is a famous educator in the hematology/ASH world. She personally vets every application and interview invite. The amount of stuff she knew about me on interview day was impressive - which shows they are really invested in their fellows and recruiting the strongest fellow class every year.

 

[SilverStain]

Please help with this ROL. Interested in academics, malig heme, no geographical pref
1. Northwestern
2. Fox Chase
3. Umass
4. Roger Williams
5. Memorial healthcare

 

[gutonc]

Please help with this ROL. Interested in academics, malig heme, no geographical pref
1. Northwestern
2. Fox Chase
3. Umass
4. Roger Williams
5. Memorial healthcare

Not sure what help you need.