I am a hemepath fellow at a prestigious institution on the west coast. This is my first fellowship. I've sent out >30 applications and no ivs. Emails are just ignored. Everywhere I apply to , people tell me there are many highly qualified applicants. Where the heck are these "may highly qualified" hemepath people from! Job market is dismal. Anybody who says the market is ok is either a ***** or a misleader.
Hemepath fellow cannot find a job.
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Same thing here out East (Also from a very notable institution) - our hemepath fellows cannot find work.
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Are you looking for heme only positions or jobs doing a mix of surg path and heme?
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lol
Any job. Hemepath only jobs are rare.
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Sorry to hear about your situation. It must be frustrating. May I ask if you're geographically restricting yourself, or are you applying all over the US?
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Of course emails are ignored. That is the beauty of email.
And a surg path fellowship in addition to subspecialty is essentially an unspoken requirement on the west coast.
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We talking Stanford here?
You should go do a residency in medicine and then consider hem/Onc if you like hematology. That field is not over saturated like pathology. Quite frankly there now is no excuse to be jobless. You have been warned about the perils of pathology. Do not listen to those who have secondary gain by the exploitation of residents.
Nationwide, academic and private, and labs, any job. Even Canada.
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So that now means hemepath is added to the list of pathologists with difficulty finding jobs: dermpath, gi path. People now seem to be piling into cytology. Dios mio...
My friend told me this is probably the worst the job market has been. Take it for what it is worth.
Could # of open fellowship positions > # of open jobs?
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My wife is a hematopathologist. After years of misery, she is now doing an internal medicine residency as a PGY-1. The pathology market is horrid and has been deteriorating for at least the past decade. The signs point straight down from here. The above suggestion is a good one.
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It is my understanding that doing a different residency after being established in practice is quite difficult due to GME funding issues. How did your wife get around this?
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Funding is a problem because the second residency only gets half of indirect funding. For this we are thankful to the program. She is a solid university trained AMG who did six years of AP/CP/heme and was in private practice for ten years. Again, we are very thankful but it is doable.
The pathology market has gone from pretty bad ten years ago to where we are now. The issue, which has been discussed already too much on SDN, is that everyone knows that the market is terrible. As a result, it is easy to enslave a worker for a few years. You know.. the great job that one found turns out to never lead to partnership or even ever have health benefits.
The reason I post here is to help warn others of the potentially avoidable pain. No more looking at Pathology Outlines for something that is really garbage. No more cold calling/begging for a slavery position. It is just sad. I really feel for the OP. And I am glad that phase of our lives is over.
The pathology market has gone from pretty bad ten years ago to where we are now. The issue, which has been discussed already too much on SDN, is that everyone knows that the market is terrible. As a result, it is easy to enslave a worker for a few years. You know.. the great job that one found turns out to never lead to partnership or even ever have health benefits.
The reason I post here is to help warn others of the potentially avoidable pain. No more looking at Pathology Outlines for something that is really garbage. No more cold calling/begging for a slavery position. It is just sad. I really feel for the OP. And I am glad that phase of our lives is over.
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Thanks for sharing. I definitely see the writing on the wall.
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Yeah, the heme market is kind of terrible right now. Strictly speaking about academic jobs and doing heme-only... they are few and far between. Out of all of the places that I applied to this year, most have received a glut of responses with a significant proportion coming from mid-level career folks who have more to show (possibly) a potential employer than someone just out of fellowship.
On the other hand, I have come across quite a few jobs that needed someone to do 50% heme. So, it's a good thing you're not dead-set on heme-only jobs. Jobs do exist, but you just need to know where to look. Way easier said than done, right? This kind of thing has been brought up before on other threads MANY times, but I would say the chances of finding a job significantly improve if you know someone who knows someone, etc. Networking. Have you spoken with your old AP/CP program? Do you keep in contact with former graduates?
There must be more to your story... how does your CV look? Touchy subject, but are you an AMG? I guess if you're a stellar candidate who has pursued ANY and ALL avenues but still can't find a job... then I think it is safe to say everyone here who does not already have a job lined up is doomed.
On the other hand, I have come across quite a few jobs that needed someone to do 50% heme. So, it's a good thing you're not dead-set on heme-only jobs. Jobs do exist, but you just need to know where to look. Way easier said than done, right? This kind of thing has been brought up before on other threads MANY times, but I would say the chances of finding a job significantly improve if you know someone who knows someone, etc. Networking. Have you spoken with your old AP/CP program? Do you keep in contact with former graduates?
There must be more to your story... how does your CV look? Touchy subject, but are you an AMG? I guess if you're a stellar candidate who has pursued ANY and ALL avenues but still can't find a job... then I think it is safe to say everyone here who does not already have a job lined up is doomed.
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I am not so sure that spending another 6 years in residency/fellowship program is the way to go 🙂
The OP has already spent a significant amount of time in residency and has a year of fellowship under their belt. Jobs exist. If worse comes to worse, you may end up working in an undesirable location for a year. It's experience, though.
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I dont believe any of this. A hemepath fellow from a top notch institution should have no problem getting any job (academic, reference lab, community, government), unless there is a problem with the applicant.
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If you think things are dire, I would recommend seeing if you can stay at your institution for a surg path fellowship. It will ensure that you have income for one more year, and it will make you more marketable. Maybe some of the private practice folks have more insight, but some groups may not look at you if you did not do a surg path fellowship. Those groups may have been burned before.
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What's this "surg path fellowship"? Sounds like another year of residency tacked on at the end to me. What's the point of it? Do pathology training programs blow so hard that you have to do another year of residency at the end?
Just talked to a friend who told me a hemepath fellow in their program got a job. That being said I was told a fellowship director in the southeast told my friend on a fellowship interview that none of the fellows have a job. This is from what he told me.
Yes, residency programs should train residents so they are competent to practice independently by the end of the fellowship. There are lots of grads that dont feel confident and feel like they need to do an extra year.
Burned meaning these ppl come in and are incompetent?
lol...that's what I always wonder as well. The reality is that residents at a lot of path programs have a lot of easy rotations where there is a lot of downtime, It seems like the obvious solution is to incorporate more of surgpath into these slack rotations....so that residents are ready to work in the real world after residency......just like every other field where this is a possibility.
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Residency programs should train their residents to practice independently by the end of residency.
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right? and be out of a job when youngling flies off after residency. no one is going to teach you jack in pathology residency. get over that notion already.
Now you are just complaining. Yes, they do. There is a vast amount of information that you need to master. At least be able to know how to workup cases by the end of residency. A fair number of grads tend to do cyto and surgpath fellowships. Why is this???? Why cannot you master these two fellowships DURING residency instead of spending another two years???
I think ppl dont feel confident by the time they finish (to practice independently) and therefore do another year of surgpath.
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Newsflash:
Start looking for a job day one of fellowship, you should have been networking all during residency. I can't think of many groups that will take solicitations, those just go in the garbage. The VA system may have something if you are getting desparate, but you may have to do Surgicals/Cyto/Autopsies too.
I hear the Kingdom of Oman is nice (not joking). Look into the Mid East, they will pay pathologists good pay for working over there. Good luck!
Start looking for a job day one of fellowship, you should have been networking all during residency. I can't think of many groups that will take solicitations, those just go in the garbage. The VA system may have something if you are getting desparate, but you may have to do Surgicals/Cyto/Autopsies too.
I hear the Kingdom of Oman is nice (not joking). Look into the Mid East, they will pay pathologists good pay for working over there. Good luck!
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We're getting a bit off topic. The issue here is that an on-paper solid applicant with a good fellowship is struggling to find a job. Another person who has been on here a while and seems quite solid (Tiki) has also mentioned a weak market. I'm not joining in with "the sky is falling" crowd but I am inclined to believe that it really is a tight job market outside a few niche subspecialties.
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Actually, yes. That is absolutely correct.
They did, once. Mine certainly did. But if everyone comes into pathology now expecting to do one (or more) fellowships, where is the incentive for either the residents or residency programs to get serious? Residency time is now logically better spent polishing resumes to land better fellowships. Doing "research". The whole process is insane.
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exactly. the stupid residency programs are funded by government to treat you like grossing monkeys and occupy your time and energy with their scut work and shuffling garbage (literally speaking) for years (at the prime of your life like mid-20s to 30s) and given no respect whatsoever. on top of that, these buggers actually have the to gall to ask for more government money for gme! absolutely disgusting.
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I have been in the field for over 30 years. Job market-wise, those years were mostly bad years. Pathology is a very non-caring specialty for their young (residents); the reason is because everyone is trying to survive. I mean, I see colleagues in their 40's and 50's jostling for a better position. It is a sad situation.
I said this before, there is a large well of FMGs in Quests and Labcors looking to move up in their career and this without much success.
My advices for medical students considering pathology:
1- most of you will be thrown to two "dogs": (1st) during residency, to academic "dons" and (2nd) after residency, to pathologists and CEOs more than eager to apply full capitalistic principles to exploit you for life.
2-For equal amount of time and effort, you will be far happier in a field where there is no "intermediary" between you and patients. If you are a top student go to minor fields as dermatology, ophthalmology; if not, go into primary care specialties with lowered expectations; this way you will be far happier and more respected by colleagues and patients.
3-We, pathologists, are the "bottom feeders". Even the top pathologists will be below a lowly, despised FMG FPs when they have to ask him/her for biopsies! Remember this! There is no lunch in the world!
4-During residency, you will be "slowly cooked to perfection" to accept what you would never have dreamt accepting . Master chefs are the Pathology chairmen et al.
It would be interesting to have an input from the Chairman of Boston U to OP. Why are you so quiet?
5-If you are meek, introvert, tranquility searching person, you will be a perfect candidate for exploitation, therefore, unfit for the field.
6-In my experience, many happy pathologists, do not know how little they comparatively make!!. I hear people talking about 350K as being a good income!
7-Remember that you a pinnacle realization of yourself and of family and a product of many years of hard work, study and enormous financial resources. Therefore, please do not throw "pearl/jewel" to "dogs"
Lest some accuse me of speaking out of personal professional failure, I have been unimaginably successful, not because the field was good, but because I was lucky and was willing to work like a dog to take the advantage of the opportunities. It is not something that can be duplicated easily.
My pleas to our colleagues is to speak up of their experiences in forum like this, if not for the specialty, to help students from straying into a lifelong disaster!!!!
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Dear Turtle,
Congratulations for >30 years in the field. Thank you for sharing your professional experience with future collegues.
As FMG. I'd like to share with our forum members how I've survived in the field for the last 15 years:
Love what you do. Care about people you work with. Be board-certified in AP/CP and completed Surgical Path Fellowship. Know your limit. Anticipate what clinicians would do with your diagnosis. Willing to signout 25-30 cases or more/day and be prepare to discuss with clinicians any challenging cases. Expect 50 percentile compensation range in the region where you plan to practice.
Easier said than done. However, what I mentioned above came from the fact that I lost my job last year because my previous hospital filed for bakruptcy. After I turned my cryostat off. I said good buye to collegue clinicians. Five of them offered me to include their names in my list of reference then I went from there. I did 2 locum tenens assignements while looking for a permenent position. I finally found the job I like. Good luck to everyone.
Congratulations for >30 years in the field. Thank you for sharing your professional experience with future collegues.
As FMG. I'd like to share with our forum members how I've survived in the field for the last 15 years:
Love what you do. Care about people you work with. Be board-certified in AP/CP and completed Surgical Path Fellowship. Know your limit. Anticipate what clinicians would do with your diagnosis. Willing to signout 25-30 cases or more/day and be prepare to discuss with clinicians any challenging cases. Expect 50 percentile compensation range in the region where you plan to practice.
Easier said than done. However, what I mentioned above came from the fact that I lost my job last year because my previous hospital filed for bakruptcy. After I turned my cryostat off. I said good buye to collegue clinicians. Five of them offered me to include their names in my list of reference then I went from there. I did 2 locum tenens assignements while looking for a permenent position. I finally found the job I like. Good luck to everyone.
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Thanks turtle1966 for your insight. $350K would still be a 75% raise for me.
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Ridiculous.
While I sure there are some nice perks to having residents take care of some of the details in your day to day life, the idea that there is some conspiracy to increase pathology spots for money and work is absurd. All my attendings once said that they could get the work done twice as fast if there wasn't a resident/fellow involved.
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Nah, this doesn't seem right. From what I've read, residency programs like to take grossing scutmonkey residents because they're cheap, have no union representation and thus no autonomy, and are cheap; in fact, programs get paid to take them.
From an individual pathologist's perspective, residents probably lengthen the time to finish cases; that's a given. But for an academic department, residents are free money and cheap labor.
Funny, my attendings always said the same thing during our rushed signouts, after I'd grossed the complicated specimens they didn't have to pay a P.A. for, prosected the autopsies they didn't have to pay a diener for (and dictated the reports), diffed their bone marrows, ordered special stains and assorted other tasks, previewed their surgical cases and dictated reports, and conducted "research" that ended up with their name on it. Heavy is the head that wears the crown.
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It isn't?
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One good pa could do the work of four residents and would be a lot less of a hassle for the program director and pathologists.
Listen, Im not saying pathology doesn't have a lot of problems, I agree with a lot of the comments of turtle1966, but to go on and on about a conspiracy and mass cover up about a scam to profit off having as many residents as possible is kooky. There probably are too many people being trained, but I believe the PDs and chairs have good intentions.
1 good PA costs approximately 150K per year
4 residents nets approximately 500 K per year
Well, compared to the vast majority of incomes on the planet, it's a fantastic income. For busy community pathologists of the (not so distant) past, it's not. I would not do what I do for less than half a million a year. It's not worth it.
For those newbies whose reaction is along the lines of "How much income do you old time greedy pathologists need, anyway", keep in mind that the swirling sea of money in medicine is deeper now than it ever was. It's just not rolling your way. If you're okay with other people getting yours, hey, welcome to pathology! And many thanks for doing your part to keep health care costs down. LOL.
You realize that Medicare pays programs on average $80,000 per year per resident? No way no how is the money and time spent on residency education not recouped in cash, scut, and "research". As to PD intentions, I'll grant they are varied. Some really have good intentions, others want free labor, others get off on the prestige of running an academic program with residents and fellows nobody needs.
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I really have a hard time reconciling posts such as this with the ads that I see constantly for academic/VA/Pod lab jobs. We can debate the merits of working in these places (and many already have). However, leaving that aside, I notice that some of these jobs are advertised for long periods suggesting that they are either hard to fill or that the hiring process is slow. I would be interested to hear from people such as the original poster as to whether (a) they applied for the jobs I mentioned and (b) whether these jobs are difficult to obtain for some reason, despite the fact that they seem plentiful. If people are not applying for these jobs, it suggests that the "problem with the pathology job market" is more one of expectation than anything else.
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Completely agree. Eloquently stated and completely in-line with my experiences as an attending thus far. Brace yourself guys.
D
deleted314957
Willing to sign-out 25-30 cases a day!!??!! What the heck are you going to do with the other 6 hours of the work day?
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1 good PA costs approximately 150K per year
Not wanting to offend the job seekers out there but if you need to put food on the table...that's more than the junior faculty at State U. Actually that is more than half my colleagues make.
Not wanting to offend the job seekers out there but if you need to put food on the table...that's more than the junior faculty at State U. Actually that is more than half my colleagues make.
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That number includes benefits - healthcare, retirement, etc. 150K would be the total cost to the group.
