Hemepath fellow cannot find a job.

[pathstudent]

To test Yaah's unsubstantiated claim that salaries in radiology are just the same as pathology, i looked up the faculty of UCSF radiology and pathology (which are among the world's finest and ergo should be paid accordingly). I only looked up 10 randomly selected full professors with an MD or MD/PhD and looked up their salary on this website http://www.sacbee.com/statepay/ (all state employees salaries are public info). As you can see the radiology is amount for amount higher than pathology with the exception of Leboit, but the difference is not wildly different in absolute dollars.

Radiology
678,000 (CHAIR)
400,000
353,000
387,000
401,000
374,000
452,000
331,000
514,000
361,000

Pathology
316,000
283,000
225,000
253,000
503,000 (CHAIR)
1,528,000
353,000
354,000
292,000
205,000

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[gbwillner]

Radiology
678,000
400,000
353,000

What are those numbers? From the Medscape survey for Rads....

1. 8% made under 100K (same as path), while 16% made over 500K (more than Path's 400K at 12%)
2. 42% of Rads saw a decrease in revenue of 10-20% this year over last, while 43% saw no change. Few saw more $$
3. Mean compensation was $349, about 100K more than path
4. Academic mean was $236, roughly $40K more than path
5. 17% are 65 or older, with 9% being over 70 !!!! yikes

 

[Substance]

What are those numbers? From the Medscape survey for Rads....

1. 8% made under 100K (same as path), while 16% made over 500K (more than Path's 400K at 12%)
2. 42% of Rads saw a decrease in revenue of 10-20% this year over last, while 43% saw no change. Few saw more $$
3. Mean compensation was $349, about 100K more than path
4. Academic mean was $236, roughly $40K more than path
5. 17% are 65 or older, with 9% being over 70 !!!! yikes

1. There is no indication whether the <100k crowd in rads is working part-time or full-time. I would assume the former is true for rads, while the latter is true for path at this income level.

3. 100k higher is reason enough for someone torn between rads and path to choose rads.



Its laudable that you are looking for a bright silver lining for the cloud of pathology, but there are still more questions to be asked.

As it stands, histopathology is coma-inducing for most medical students, making very few consider pathology as a career. Those that consider pathology, a diagnostic specialty, also consider radiology. Now, given AOA and high step scores, the competitive applicant will select rads on the basis of income and job market alone (yes, yes we know the rads job market is sucking, but its not anywhere close to path. Path's has sucked since the 70s), leaving path with the mediocre students and the IMGs.

THe only thing that could save your field is an increase in income. Since that's never gonna happen, I don't foresee nice things for your future.

 

[dr.weiner]

1. There is no indication whether the <100k crowd in rads is working part-time or full-time. I would assume the former is true for rads, while the latter is true for path at this income level.

3. 100k higher is reason enough for someone torn between rads and path to choose rads.



Its laudable that you are looking for a bright silver lining for the cloud of pathology, but there are still more questions to be asked.

As it stands, histopathology is coma-inducing for most medical students, making very few consider pathology as a career. Those that consider pathology, a diagnostic specialty, also consider radiology. Now, given AOA and high step scores, the competitive applicant will select rads on the basis of income and job market alone (yes, yes we know the rads job market is sucking, but its not anywhere close to path. Path's has sucked since the 70s), leaving path with the mediocre students and the IMGs.

THe only thing that could save your field is an increase in income. Since that's never gonna happen, I don't foresee nice things for your future.

Substance... you have to be the saddest poster in all my years of reading internet forums. Do you really have nothing better to do than criticize the field of pathology? You are probably the most active person on this forum and you are neither a pathologist nor even in this country. Do you really have nothing else to do?

 

[2121115]

It's not true where I trained. I don't think it's true many places. Academic radiologists don't get paid very well either. There is sometimes confusion as to what truly constitutes "academic" and "private" though. But that is true for pathology also. Radiologists at true large academic med centers typically don't get paid that much more than pathologists. But hey, if someone says it on the internet that must mean it's true.

I was flat out told by a radiology chair "I have to pay them at least 80% of private practice or I can't retain anyone". But maybe that was just that one institution.

 

[pathstudent]

I was flat out told by a radiology chair "I have to pay them at least 80% of private practice or I can't retain anyone". But maybe that was just that one institution.

I think that the figures above show that most full professors make about 50% of what busy partners in private practice make (i.e. the top 10% of the profession) in both radiology and pathology.

In Pathology professors make 250k-350k while in private the top make 500-700k.

In Radiology professors make 350k-450k while in private the top make 700k-900k.

Of course there will be exceptions like Leboit making 1.5M and the Columbia dermpath that makes 5M a year. And of courese the numbers above are just ball park figures.

It goes to show you why dermpath is so crazy competitive. It essentially blows away all other specialites with respect to income.

 

[hemepath]

One question: What ever happened to the OP hemepath? How come ppl post and say they cant find a job and suddenly disappear while the thread grows to 5 pages?

Thank you for remembering me. I am still without a job. Trying to scramble for a fellowship but 2013 openings are rare. Have a part time offer from an outpatient lab but do not want to go. So I am still jobless. Please help me.

 

[gbwillner]

Thank you for remembering me. I am still without a job. Trying to scramble for a fellowship but 2013 openings are rare. Have a part time offer from an outpatient lab but do not want to go. So I am still jobless. Please help me.

I can pay you $10/hr to strip lead paint from the millwork in my 100+ year-old house.

/Sorry, that's the best I can do.

 

[pathstudent]

Thank you for remembering me. I am still without a job. Trying to scramble for a fellowship but 2013 openings are rare. Have a part time offer from an outpatient lab but do not want to go. So I am still jobless. Please help me.

http://www.sh-eahp.org/job-board

Tons of jobs right here.

 

[yaah]

It's very institutionally dependent.

 

[pathresident2]

It's very institutionally dependent.

What do you mean?How about the hemepath fellows you know of this year? What proportions of them have job offers now?

 

[yaah]

What do you mean?How about the hemepath fellows you know of this year? What proportions of them have job offers now?

I meant radiologist and pathologist salaries.

 

[pathstudent]

I meant radiologist and pathologist salaries.

Can you provide data to support that?

 

[2121115]

Thank you for remembering me...I am still jobless...Please help me.

Ok. I have to admit I'm unsure if you're trolling or not. But in the case that you are not, I really feel for you. I feel fortunate to have a good job. As for what you can do now, obviously most people would recommend another fellowship. Also, I would recommend getting in touch with your chair and offering to sign out general surgpath and heme for a low rate, like junior faculty rate at 70k per year. This will keep you employed and give you experience, while giving the department a way to profit on the difference between that and your salary/benefits. Few departments will turn down a situation like that. Everybody wins. If your department won't do it, there many that will. Call around.

 

[scienceguy19]

fellowship trained and
working for a starting salary of 70k? how low can we go

Ok. I have to admit I'm unsure if you're trolling or not. But in the case that you are not, I really feel for you. I feel fortunate to have a good job. As for what you can do now, obviously most people would recommend another fellowship. Also, I would recommend getting in touch with your chair and offering to sign out general surgpath and heme for a low rate, like junior faculty rate at 70k per year. This will keep you employed and give you experience, while giving the department a way to profit on the difference between that and your salary/benefits. Few departments will turn down a situation like that. Everybody wins. If your department won't do it, there many that will. Call around.

 

[deleted314957]

Ok. I have to admit I'm unsure if you're trolling or not. But in the case that you are not, I really feel for you. I feel fortunate to have a good job. As for what you can do now, obviously most people would recommend another fellowship. Also, I would recommend getting in touch with your chair and offering to sign out general surgpath and heme for a low rate, like junior faculty rate at 70k per year. This will keep you employed and give you experience, while giving the department a way to profit on the difference between that and your salary/benefits. Few departments will turn down a situation like that. Everybody wins. If your department won't do it, there many that will. Call around.

nobody is looking at you because you have no (REAL) experience. I would NEVER hire ANYONE who never had any real world sign out experience ( and i did have that responsibility in PP). Another fellowship is worth jackshi*. Get your man/woman card punched. Then folks may look at you.

 

[member0007]

you know what. the problem is they are giving the jobs to quacks and scam artists like the current chair and program director at mount sinai hospital, instead of hiring real doctors with real experience in patient care.

 

[MetroPath]

you know what. the problem is they are giving the jobs to quacks and scam artists like the current chair and program director at mount sinai hospital, instead of hiring real doctors with real experience in patient care.

Dude, you really hate this guy dont you?

 

[pathstudent]

you know what. the problem is they are giving the jobs to quacks and scam artists like the current chair and program director at mount sinai hospital, instead of hiring real doctors with real experience in patient care.

NFI what you are talking about.

 

[2121115]

nobody is looking at you because you have no (REAL) experience. I would NEVER hire ANYONE who never had any real world sign out experience ( and i did have that responsibility in PP). Another fellowship is worth jackshi*. Get your man/woman card punched. Then folks may look at you.

You are correct that experience will help. However, it speaks volumes about pathology training that this is true. Why can you practice general internal medicine after 3 years and general surgery after 5 years, not needing "real world" experience to be considered for a job? Yet in pathology one needs 5-6 years plus experience to function adequately in practice?

That is a damning indictment of the pathology training system in America and we should be ashamed. Academics will be quick to blame the trainee - after all, there are always jobs for good candidates right? If you are not a good candidate it's not our fault, you didn't work hard enough, etc. But surely training programs should be culpable for taking in an average/median AMG and not being able to turn that person into a competent pathologist in less time than a surgeon can be trained. Lets be honest - pathology just isn't harder than other specialties, and it doesn't take more years to reach baseline competency.

 

[bosco77]

one year of concentration on learning a sub-specialty is probably the single most valuable year of training in my opinion.
I see hemepath reports all the time from 'seasoned' pathologists who never did a fellowship and got grandfathered in because they have so much 'real world' experience.
Many are borderline incompetent and they should really just stop doing it.

If you are at a proper training program there should be almost no difference to the real world except clicking the final sign-out button.

 

[deleted314957]

Agree100% with 2121115

 

[sleeping beauty]

in my place, Pathology assistant professor started at S175k and radiology assistant professor started $350 last year. bonus is % of salary.

 

[Unty]

You are correct that experience will help. However, it speaks volumes about pathology training that this is true. Why can you practice general internal medicine after 3 years and general surgery after 5 years, not needing "real world" experience to be considered for a job? Yet in pathology one needs 5-6 years plus experience to function adequately in practice?

That is a damning indictment of the pathology training system in America and we should be ashamed. Academics will be quick to blame the trainee - after all, there are always jobs for good candidates right? If you are not a good candidate it's not our fault, you didn't work hard enough, etc. But surely training programs should be culpable for taking in an average/median AMG and not being able to turn that person into a competent pathologist in less time than a surgeon can be trained. Lets be honest - pathology just isn't harder than other specialties, and it doesn't take more years to reach baseline competency.

I also agree. I think training programs are variable. Some are better at producing better pathologists. The quality of the resident plays a role here as well. You as a resident have to put a lot of time into reading and looking at slides. Programs also should be held accountable for the graduates they train. Board passage rates are important here. If a program's board passage rate is dismal, I for one, think they should be closed. Pathology is not a competitive field. The lower tier programs and some of the mid tier programs are matching whoever says "I like pathology."

 

[member0007]

You are correct that experience will help. However, it speaks volumes about pathology training that this is true. Why can you practice general internal medicine after 3 years and general surgery after 5 years, not needing "real world" experience to be considered for a job? Yet in pathology one needs 5-6 years plus experience to function adequately in practice?

That is a damning indictment of the pathology training system in America and we should be ashamed. Academics will be quick to blame the trainee - after all, there are always jobs for good candidates right? If you are not a good candidate it's not our fault, you didn't work hard enough, etc. But surely training programs should be culpable for taking in an average/median AMG and not being able to turn that person into a competent pathologist in less time than a surgeon can be trained. Lets be honest - pathology just isn't harder than other specialties, and it doesn't take more years to reach baseline competency.

I also agree. I think training programs are variable. Some are better at producing better pathologists. The quality of the resident plays a role here as well. You as a resident have to put a lot of time into reading and looking at slides. Programs also should be held accountable for the graduates they train. Board passage rates are important here. If a program's board passage rate is dismal, I for one, think they should be closed. Pathology is not a competitive field. The lower tier programs and some of the mid tier programs are matching whoever says "I like pathology."

1. I think that as long as you are being used as a slave to a high volume department, for example, mount sinai medical center, while the former chairman, current chairman, and whomever else tows in bags of cash from medicare and whatever insurance payor from the work that only you could have performed due to your inherent value as a medical doctor, but continues to thrive while not offering any substantial returns to you in any meaningful terms is problematic.

2. If you are at program that is used to raking in millions of dollars in surplus because of how they operate and exploit the labor of residency ( see above)... your reading, board passage rates, previewing slides etc will not be a priority for the program.

 

[Path_to_Endo]

What's going on with Sinai Path???

 

[pathresident2]

What's going on with Sinai Path???

Heard their residency program was almost put on probation. The board pass rate is dismal.

 

[flindophile]

The way to analyze this is to use a chi square distribution of expected vs actual compenstaion, over various break points, to determine whether there is a significant difference. I love what I do and I don't care enough to do this. You obviously care a great deal about this but lack the skills to make your point.

To test Yaah's unsubstantiated claim that salaries in radiology are just the same as pathology, i looked up the faculty of UCSF radiology and pathology (which are among the world's finest and ergo should be paid accordingly). I only looked up 10 randomly selected full professors with an MD or MD/PhD and looked up their salary on this website http://www.sacbee.com/statepay/ (all state employees salaries are public info). As you can see the radiology is amount for amount higher than pathology with the exception of Leboit, but the difference is not wildly different in absolute dollars.

Radiology
678,000 (CHAIR)
400,000
353,000
387,000
401,000
374,000
452,000
331,000
514,000
361,000

Pathology
316,000
283,000
225,000
253,000
503,000 (CHAIR)
1,528,000
353,000
354,000
292,000
205,000

 

[gbwillner]

fellowship trained and
working for a starting salary of 70k? how low can we go

LOL. You make it sound like only pathologists get hired as instructors for ~70-80K. Hate to break it to you, but it happens in most specialties to those who want to do a limited-time job at their home institution or are tenure-track but not ready to have their "tenure clock" start ticking.

/I knew a pulmonary guy at my institution who was getting a paycut to get promoted to instructor from his fellowship salary.

 

[KluverB]

one year of concentration on learning a sub-specialty is probably the single most valuable year of training in my opinion.
I see hemepath reports all the time from 'seasoned' pathologists who never did a fellowship and got grandfathered in because they have so much 'real world' experience.
Many are borderline incompetent and they should really just stop doing it.

Yes, an extra year of training may do someone good, but as you see from most of the postings, the "real world" experience trumps any incremental titbits of knowledge, and what it comes down to is not so much an extra year of training, but keeping up with literature, guidelines, etc.

I'm a generalist, only a few years our from training mind you; I see some heme here and there. I issue a perlim report with my impression then forward the case to a hemepath for a blessing. I have yet to be overturned. I also see a ton of derm and I show a few cases almost daily to the dermpaths in my group. I definitely welcome their help and insight. Althoug, I reckon, if I didn't have them on site, I'd sign out a lot more of the cases without any hand holding.

I do believe that subspecialists have a place, and an important one at that. But, perhaps producing too many grads is not path's only problem? Perhaps producing too many subspeciality trained grads adds to it? After all, how many more hemepaths, dermpaths, etc. can the market absorb? There are only so many high-volume places in the country that need someone with hemepath training, for example. Everything else can, for the most part, be handled by a generalist, assuming he/she knows when to consult out something they can't handle themselves.

I would also think that certain subspecialists have problems finding that first job straight out of training, for reasons that mikesheree (and others) have alluded to. They probably have trouble finding a backup position too, e.g. one that's perhaps not their preferred subspeciality only. For example, unless a group is specifically looking, why would they hire a hemepath (or dermapth, etc.) straight out of training to do surg path + heme? I would think they would shy away from such candidates knowing full well that they are looking for a hemepath only position, and will leave as soon as one becomes available, no matter what they claim. I think they would rather hire someone who's been in practice and actually doing both, then to take a chance at a new grad.

 

[Tiki]

Well, I got an awesome job, in a location I am absolutely thrilled over. Thank god!

I guess this means I wasn't a sucky pathologist, after all, huh?

The job market is rough out there, so good luck to those who are about to start the hunt for next year. If you don't find one right off the bat, try to avoid SDN because there are some real asshats on here.

 

[MetroPath]

Corn and cows? I am assuming you are in the Midwest? Congrats by the way.

 

[hemepath]

Well, I got an awesome job, in a location I am absolutely thrilled over. Thank god!

I guess this means I wasn't a sucky pathologist, after all, huh?

The job market is rough out there, so good luck to those who are about to start the hunt for next year. If you don't find one right off the bat, try to avoid SDN because there are some real asshats on here.

Academic or private?

 

[Euchromatin]

Congratulations!!

 

[BU Pathology]

Well, I got an awesome job, in a location I am absolutely thrilled over. Thank god!

I guess this means I wasn't a sucky pathologist, after all, huh?

The job market is rough out there, so good luck to those who are about to start the hunt for next year. If you don't find one right off the bat, try to avoid SDN because there are some real asshats on here.

Congratulations on the successful job search.

 

[member0007]

What's going on with Sinai Path???

well, it's probably an average on the list of 'bad programs list'.

 

[member0007]

Well, I got an awesome job, in a location I am absolutely thrilled over. Thank god!

I guess this means I wasn't a sucky pathologist, after all, huh?

The job market is rough out there, so good luck to those who are about to start the hunt for next year. If you don't find one right off the bat, try to avoid SDN because there are some real asshats on here.

I hope this means that the posting on bad jobs, and the prospects, and the likes will finally be over from Tiki

 

[KLPM]

I guess this means I wasn't a sucky pathologist, after all, huh?

Someone is going to come along and tell you, you suck sooner or later. But congratulations.

 

[member0007]

Someone is going to come along and tell you, you suck sooner or later. But congratulations.

 

[member0007]

Well, I got an awesome job, in a location I am absolutely thrilled over. Thank god!

I guess this means I wasn't a sucky pathologist, after all, huh?

The job market is rough out there, so good luck to those who are about to start the hunt for next year. If you don't find one right off the bat, try to avoid SDN because there are some real asshats on here.

Please STOP POSTING NOW THAT YOU HAVE BEEN ALLEGEDLY EMPLOYED.

 

[Euchromatin]

you know what. the problem is they are giving the jobs to quacks and scam artists like the current chair and program director at mount sinai hospital, instead of hiring real doctors with real experience in patient care.

Did the chair of the Mount Sinai pathology department piss in your cornflakes or something? You make completely off-topic posts in numerous threads to bitch about this person and your main complaint seems to be that they have a PhD and do basic science research instead of clinical sign-out...so what? A proportion of pathologists with research backgrounds who work at academic centers do actually make careers out of that kind of work. I don't know why you have such an axe to grind with this person, but making random derogatory posts all the time makes you seem like a crazypants and does nothing to productively contribute to the forum.

LOL. I hope this means that the posting on bad jobs, and the prospects, and the likes will finally be over from Tiki

Please STOP POSTING NOW THAT YOU HAVE BEEN ALLEGEDLY EMPLOYED.

WTF is your problem? This entire thread was about the job hunt by graduating fellows and many of us were very interested in what happened to Tiki. Could you stop being such a douche?

 

[member0007]

Did the chair of the Mount Sinai pathology department piss in your cornflakes or something? You make completely off-topic posts in numerous threads to bitch about this person and your main complaint seems to be that they have a PhD and do basic science research instead of clinical sign-out...so what? A proportion of pathologists with research backgrounds who work at academic centers do actually make careers out of that kind of work. I don't know why you have such an axe to grind with this person, but making random derogatory posts all the time makes you seem like a crazypants and does nothing to productively contribute to the forum.



WTF is your problem? This entire thread was about the job hunt by graduating fellows and many of us were very interested in what happened to Tiki. Could you stop being such a douche?

Seems like you have some anger issues. Obviously, you have not read my posts about the leadership of Mount Sinai Pathology department, it sucks and they are nasty people. GET IT. It's only derogatory if it weren't true. So go get yourself some cornflakes and enjoy it because they are not pissing in it.

 

[WEBB PINKERTON]

I wish people would quit using the word "douche" and "douchebag". Quit watching so much Jersey shore. Pathology sure is attracting some real winners....

 

[gbwillner]

Well, I got an awesome job, in a location I am absolutely thrilled over. Thank god!

I guess this means I wasn't a sucky pathologist, after all, huh?

The job market is rough out there, so good luck to those who are about to start the hunt for next year. If you don't find one right off the bat, try to avoid SDN because there are some real asshats on here.

Congrats! We all knew it was only a matter of time.

 

[pianoguy05]

Well, I got an awesome job, in a location I am absolutely thrilled over. Thank god!

I guess this means I wasn't a sucky pathologist, after all, huh?

The job market is rough out there, so good luck to those who are about to start the hunt for next year. If you don't find one right off the bat, try to avoid SDN because there are some real asshats on here.

Well done! Congratulations!

 

[path24]

Someone gets a job and the entire forum gets excited...only in pathology, where you have to fight for a job/work.

Congrats on the job.

 

[Euchromatin]

Seems like you have some anger issues. Obviously, you have not read my posts about the leadership of Mount Sinai Pathology department, it sucks and they are nasty people. GET IT. It's only derogatory if it weren't true. So go get yourself some cornflakes and enjoy it because they are not pissing in it.

I am definitely not an angry person, but I thought your repeated posts commanding Tiki to stop responding were extremely rude and I felt they warranted a comment. Maybe the magic anti-sarcasm/humor effect that sometimes occurs on the internets led to a misunderstanding and you really meant them to be funny?

Obviously, I have read plenty of your numerous posts about the leadership of the Mount Sinai Pathology department. The fact that you make so many posts complaining about the chair, and the fact that the posts are sometimes awkwardly shoehorned into discussions of topics not relating to your comment are what I find rather odd. I appreciate your vigor in trying to deter future applicants from matching into what you feel is a poor quality, malignant residency program. However, I think your posts would be more effective if you provided more specific details regarding what you dislike about the program itself and less personal information about the chair.

 

[Euchromatin]

I wish people would quit using the word "douche" and "douchebag". Quit watching so much Jersey shore. Pathology sure is attracting some real winners....

I've never seen an episode of Jersey shore. I get my "douche" references from South Park

 

[cmz]

I wish people would quit using the word "douche" and "douchebag". Quit watching so much Jersey shore. Pathology sure is attracting some real winners....

What does this even mean?

 

[KLPM]

I've never seen an episode of Jersey shore. I get my "douche" references from South Park

I learnt about Jersey Shore from South Park.