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Here is a hairy question

Discussion in 'Pre-Medical - MD' started by kidflip, Jan 8, 2002.

  1. kidflip

    kidflip Member 7+ Year Member

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    Dec 20, 2001
    OK I know this is crazy but I want to know what you guys think about this:


    I have two undergrad degrees one completed 6 years ago with a low low GPA (2.5) and another science BS competed last year GPA 4.0. Do you think I should not bother telling the Med schools about the first undergrad degree. Is there any way they can find out?

    I know this is really evil but aside from the critism is there any way I can get caught

    Thanks for the advice
     
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  3. alice

    alice Senior Member 7+ Year Member

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    Nov 8, 2001
    maryland
    i'd have a good friend at another school ask their pre-med advisor for you. i certainly don't know what the story is, but you should find out before taking the risk! i bet you could get away with it. you did the additional bachelor's and that's all they ask for, right? i don't even think it's devious because you went through the whole thing again. you earned that 4.0 as well as if you'd done it the first time.
     
  4. Mystique

    Mystique The Procrastinator 7+ Year Member

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    Jul 6, 2001
    I believe that when you fill out the AMCAS application, you have to enter ALL coursework...present and past. So, I don't think you can hide this from med schools. Also, it's dishonest, and I don't know why you want to do that. With that said, integrity is a major facet of a career in medicine...
     
  5. jargon124

    jargon124 Senior Member 10+ Year Member

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    Oct 2, 2001
    You have to report ALL your previous coursework. If you don't, and you get caught, you will be instantaneously rejected/expelled from med school. If you get caught after getting your degree, there is a chance disciplinary action would be taken that could include losing your license. Aside from that (huge) risk, it's just plain wrong, and anyone who does so doesn't have any business being anyone's doctor -and I really don't know what more to say about it. Put all the coursework out there and do your best on the rest of your application. Good luck.
     
  6. edmadison

    edmadison 1K Member 10+ Year Member

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    Feb 27, 2001
    Lactate > 15
    Another thing, what are you going to do when they ask you at the interview to tell them what you did for those for years? Better make up a good story.

    Ed
     
  7. willbeMD

    willbeMD Member 10+ Year Member

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    Jun 18, 2000
    I think it's too risky. Anyway, did you re-take all your core courses (i.e humanities, language..etc.) for the second BS. If you didn't re-take all these courses, won't the schools get suspicious as to why you graduated with taking fewer classes than normal. I know that two get a second BS, some schools only ask that you take the classes for the major and they accept the credits for all the core class requirements.
     
  8. EpiII

    EpiII Senior Member 7+ Year Member

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    Oct 26, 2001
    California
    The best idea is to tell the truth about why you got such a low GPA for first time. There probably is s good reason that starts with, "I was young and immature ..." The schools accept that along with the proof you have to show them in the second degree. There is nothing to be ashamed of and the risk inherent in lying is not worth it.
     
  9. THE instiGATOR

    THE instiGATOR Cow Tipper 7+ Year Member

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    Sep 27, 2001
    Dude, play spin doctor. Just say you weren't focused. Tell the schools that, even though you were not focused, you gained valuable knowledge. If you can make a cow pattie look like a brownie, you can get into med school. It's all about MARKETING, man!!! Well, not ALL about marketing :) . ALWAYS present the bright side of an issue. You can do this and still be 100% truthful. DO NOT try to be deceitful.
     
  10. Darwin

    Darwin 10+ Year Member

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    Aug 18, 2001
    HMS Beagle
    I agree with SwampMan and the others -

    First, you need to be honest. What glory is there in achieving something if you cheated your way there? Would you want your family members, or would you want, to be treated by a physician that lied and cheated to get where he/she is? This is something you don't want to regret when your 60 and looking in the mirror...to realize that the only reason you are who you are, and that to have made what you have was a result of your lack of integrity is no way to enter the last part of your life.

    That said, if honesty is not your forte, then I'll assume that the resultant 4.0 is a reflection of intelligence. And you need to use some in going about this. Was the school you attended to get your second degree a different school? If not, then there's no chance. If so, when you applied did you indicate anywhere on your app. to that school that you have taken previous coursework? If so, then there's no chance. Did you have any units transfer (as was mentioned above)? Again, if so, then there's no chance.

    If you applied to the school at which you obtained your second degree, and lied about having ever taken coursework before, and did so under the premise that you were starting from scratch in their eyes, then you will probably never get caught. The chances that you did this are slim, and would have required you to get the second degree with the intention of lying to med. schools and completely forgeting about the first degree - otherwise you would have indicated on your app. to the second school that you have taken coursework before. When all is done, refer to your integrity and rely on that. Do what SwampMan noted - tell what you learned from your past experience and spin the topic. You'll grow into a new sense of character and will never have any regrets about this decision. Hope this helps. Take care.

    PS - I have listed just a few of the potential pitfalls you might run into in doing this - there are so many more, including financial aid. You'd hate to get accepted, apply for aid, and have the school realize that you already have $10,000 in debt from an institution you never indicated you attended. You'd also hate to have your current school find about this and pull your second degree from you for lying on THIER app. about having never taken any coursework. In the end, your left with no MD, no second BS, and the trying ability to explain to yourself why you ever did what you did.
     
  11. ok I agree with everyone else's post, but with all due honesty, to answer the latter HALF of your question!

    No, it would be impossible for you to get caught....however, having said that, if you blab your mouth, or someone on this website recognizes your name and is evil enough (their premed, so they probably are) they could snitch on you, and hell breaks lose!

    ON the other hand, that is a great COME back story....I was having so many problems, unfocused didnt give a damn about life, until half way through a life changing experience happened, yaddi yaddi yadda, and then I was superachiever, and I changed my life for the better...

    now, what sounds more appealing? I was a nerd and got a 4.0 all 4 years, or I was transformed by life's obstacles!!!

    the american admiration goes for the underdog! :D not, "well I was just born with it man attitude" hehe, ;)

    peace V

    watcha
     
  12. OK, all this stuff about not leaving out that first degree because it's wrong is bs.

    getting into med school is an art. it requires more than sincere dedication and effort and intelligence. it requires an ability to market yourself. if you can't do this, you may not make the cut. and that's not fair. but that's life.

    getting into med school will not affect your life as a professional. this guy isn't cheating or lying his way in; he earned those grades. and those grades are in the course of an whole undergraduate career. those grades represent his ability. withholding the grades from that first degree won't make this guy a bad doctor with no compassion or integrity. hell, i am a very compassionate person and i believe i have strong morals and values. that said, since i know how much of a crapshoot this process is, and it doesn't define my ability as a physician, it just shows how good i can market myself, then if i could, i would leave out the things about my application that knock me down. i don't mean picking out classes that i didn't get an A in. i mean, for ex. if i'm this guy, keepign the most recent undergrad degree (which i know represents me anyway), while hiding what makes me look bad. admissions is just a checkpoint. breaking code with your integrity at this extremely unobjective juncture in order to come off well will not make you a person lacking in integrity during your professional career.

    at some point in your career when you want to move up, you may be asked to account for the most interesting case you'd ever had, and explain what you did. i know a doctor who made up a story. gave a case packed with all the juicy stuff. moral dilemma, sympathetic cause, great medical problem, etc. and the committee interviewing ATE IT UP. this doctor got the position. this doctor is SUPERB. patients love him, and he is very compassionate, and has strong morals, and much integrity. you have to learn to play this game. if i know i can help many people in great ways, but my interviewing skills suck, i'm gonna learn how to market myself, cuz otherwise i won't be helping anybody cuz i won't get the job. I agree that lying is wrong. but this is a BS very subjective process and you can't say it truly defines our abilities as professionals. everybody, if they could, would make cow dung look like brownies. they are smart, and they will get in and help people. if they had the opportunity to completely do away with some part of their application that did not represent them well for the sake of coming off well at this subjective interview, then they should.

    now i'm not advocating that everybody hides stuff. i'm not! this is a complicated decision, but it's clear to me that this person would not be doing anybody an injustice by hiding these grades. so for him i advocate it.

    but actually i don't because there's a chance you'll get caught. so forget it. but if you could, i'd say more power to you brother. and i'm not at that childish stage of growing up (whatever it's called) where you only do right things to avoid being punished. my morals drive my actions, not the threat of punishment. but the ART of getting into med school is not something that everyone is equally skilled at. and that's unfair and subjective. so for this person, i advocate hiding his past, which he's proven to me is not indicative of his ability.

    i'm sure some of you people that believe you're more morally strong that me will jump at me for this candid revelation. but for what it's worth i'll have you know that I began this process last year as naively idealistic as you May be. but experience, logical reasoning, and a more realistic outlook has changed my mind. i don't believe that in this specific case it would be immoral for the reasons i've given. you may disagree with me at first, but maybe if you read this again you'll start to see what i mean.
     
  13. Trek

    Trek Grand Uranium Member 7+ Year Member

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    Aug 23, 2001
    The Big House
    Leaving the moral qualms to the side, i'd say this boils down to russian roulette. If you pull it off, you can come up a MAJOR winner applying with a 4.0. If you're caught, you're totally out and won't ever become a doctor. Sooo....the question is...you a gambling man? I am, but I wouldn't play these odds. Maybe you would. --Trek
     
  14. i wouldn't gamble with a decision that can drammatically affect my life.

    dont' you think they'd WONDER why you waited until you were 28 (i'm guessing you graduated in ~4 years for the first one) to go to college?????
    honestly, if i were interviewing you i'd expect to see someone that went to work at Mceedeez for 10 years right after highschool, and THAT would not be cool with me..very suspicious. i'd ask many questions. be forewarned
     
  15. gower

    gower 1K Member 10+ Year Member

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    Oct 14, 2000
    New York
    The earlier record will play no part in evaluating you for admission, whether you had a 4.0 or 2.0 GPA. It is irrelevant to here and now. It is what you have done recently that counts. There are thousands who did poorly the first time around who are today MDs, PhDs, lawyers, etc. There is nothing to fear and everything to gain by owning up to the early work.

    The only unnecessary risk you face is being found out in a lie, as remote as that may be. You can never be sure that someone who writes you a supporting recommendation might know about and mention your earlier work while commenting favorably on your current work. Then, you will be dead in the water, for lying.

    Admissions people are neither stupid nor fools. Academics themselves, they are very well aware that it is possible for many reasons for young people to do poorly in college without their being incapable or unintelligent. Later, with maturity, changed circumstances and meaningful motivation, they show their stuff. Some admissions folks have even gone that route themselves.

    You have everything to gain and nothing to lose by submitting your early transcripts.

    My knowledge comes from a lifetime of personal experience. A retired Professor of Biology and a premedical advisor for nearly 40 years, I myself was a college dropout, about to fail everything my first semester. I have two Ivy League degrees.
    Many of my former premeds, now physicians, had poor early records. There was even one who served hard prison time for armed robbery, with a drug involvement; the medical school which accepted him knew of his record. He secured a very prestigious residency in oncology and has been a licensed physician for years now.

    The only thing we have to fear is fear itself.
     
  16. Would you want to spend the rest of your life in fear that you might be found out? Would you want to jeopardize everything you have been working for your entire life? Just think of George O,Leary.
     

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