Here - U of Toronto vs McGill

[xylem29]

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Toronto

"The University of Toronto publishes more research than any other university in North America besides Harvard University."

"The University of Toronto library system is Canada's largest academic library and is ranked fourth largest in North America after Harvard, Yale, and Illinois."

"The university's endowment exceeds $1.6 billion—far larger than any other Canadian university.[6] It has an operating budget of $1.1 billion, with $517 million in research and grant and contract support"

McGill - 12 spots for intl students

Toronto - 7 spots intl students

By the way, Ontario is the only province where medical schools do not have reserved spots for its residents. Needless to say, Ontario schools are the most competitive schools in Canada.

More spots in McGill, sure - and I'm not knocking the school because it has also consistently ranked in the top 3 in Canada. But for those Americans who think McGill is Canada's Harvard, it's not. It's also quite funny that term is even used, b/c the only school that comes close to Harvard is Toronto, and Toronto is nothing compared to Harvard.

So for anyone who is looking to go to medical school at a huge academic and research centre, McGill is good, but Toronto is also good. So you should look into it. Also, when SARS hit the nation, it was a Dr. Lowe from Toronto's Mt. Sinai hospital who was in charge. So I'm pretty sure that most people in academia, both in science and academic medicine - know how good UToronto is. There's no question about it - it's just the general populace who think there's only one university in canada worth attending.

Before anyone blasts me - yes, I have no life.

 

[MadHopsMD]

UofT's number one. let's here it ppl

 

[xylem29]

lol, no one seems to care.

 

[Keyser112]

It definitely is. I attended 2 years of undergrad there before transferring to Western. U of T is crazy insane undergrad. lol

 

[MadHopsMD]

It definitely is. I attended 2 years of undergrad there before transferring to Western. U of T is crazy insane undergrad. lol

Sorry if this is off topic. but why did you switch?

Oh ya, if you didnt know already...you are one smart kid!!!!!!!! 👍

 

[xylem29]

Isn't it obvious why anyone switches? U of T is a GPA killer.

 

[coffeebythelake]

Isn't it obvious why anyone switches? U of T is a GPA killer.

I concur. A GPA of 3.0 at UofT is like a GPA of 4.0 at York.

 

[4paw]

Well it's easier to get an A in Italian at UofT than at York.
And when it comes to political science and humanities and arts, York is where the innovation happens.

many people have chosen york over uoft because uoft could not offer something. york had women's studies and sexuality studies way before uoft. york is the school that sent an astronaut into space from canada (he got his phd in physics at york).

most importantly, york has a culture of student mobilization. when we strike, we mean it, and we impact wages for t.a.s and contract faculty. i haven't seen uoft students be able to do the same. in fact, uoft students strike???

and mcgill? everyone knows (or should) that their arts programmes suck.

keep in mind as well that none of these schools are the laurentians, lakeheads, or any of those newer places popping up.

 

[xylem29]

Yea - eiken probably shouldn't have mentioned York. York isn't as bad as what some people think. I don't about the humanities and social sciences, so I can't comment. I am knowledgeable about biomedical research, science, and medicine - so here I can comment on it, Toronto is light years ahead of everyone.

York's MBA program is top notch, that I know. Keep in mind that different schools have different strenghths - Ryerson gets a lot of slack, but it too is better than the rest in some programs - like journalism or broadcasting (wait, you need a bachelors for broadcasting?).

Seriously, other than York, Ryerson, Toronto, Western, Queens, Guelph, Waterloo, and McMaster - I don't know why people even bother at the other ON schools...like lakehead or laurentian??? or trent??? what a joke! lol.

 

[coffeebythelake]

Yea - eiken probably shouldn't have mentioned York. York isn't as bad as what some people think. I don't about the humanities and social sciences, so I can't comment. I am knowledgeable about biomedical research, science, and medicine - so here I can comment on it, Toronto is light years ahead of everyone.

York's MBA program is top notch, that I know. Keep in mind that different schools have different strenghths - Ryerson gets a lot of slack, but it too is better than the rest in some programs - like journalism or broadcasting (wait, you need a bachelors for broadcasting?).

Seriously, other than York, Ryerson, Toronto, Western, Queens, Guelph, Waterloo, and McMaster - I don't know why people even bother at the other ON schools...like lakehead or laurentian??? or trent??? what a joke! lol.

Consider that most U of T premeds have better marks in high school than York students, yet both schools set the same bell curves in undergrad. Most of the Type A personalities end up at U of T and fight with each other over marks. Meanwhile all these York kids take it easy and end up going into med school.

The system is stupid.

 

[Keyser112]

U of T GPA - 3.12
Western GPA - 3.89

I was a better student at Western and did work harder, but the difficulty at U of T was unparalleled.

And Yes I am smarter for getting out haha that was a good post earlier.

 

[xylem29]

Consider that most U of T premeds have better marks in high school than York students, yet both schools set the same bell curves in undergrad. Most of the Type A personalities end up at U of T and fight with each other over marks. Meanwhile all these York kids take it easy and end up going into med school.

The system is stupid.

That's a myth. A lot of U of T students go onto med school - it's just that the first year life science class is like 1500 students, so a lot of ppl also get screwed over. In fact, a good % of U of T's med school class are U of T students.

 

[degoo_]

I concur. A GPA of 3.0 at UofT is like a GPA of 4.0 at York.

It is exagerated, but definately true. I have a friend, and know of someone who left UofT for York, and used our first/second year labs for their third year ones. Marking was so much more relaxed, and handing things in late did not always result in 10% off. It seemed to me to be more relaxed, on letting the students have fun and explore, which is certainly a good thing, but reflects in GPAs.

Isn't it obvious why anyone switches? U of T is a GPA killer.

I also know someone who came from York (glendon- supposedly the easiest of the easiest) to UofT. He would plagarize papers from websites (not even journals.. c'mon) the night before a term paper was due and get a B-. His B average was good enough to transfer into UofT, and boom.. he's changed major twice and has to have permission to retake prerequisites (or find alternatives) to make the minimums into the programs (sociology ones).

Yea - eiken probably shouldn't have mentioned York. York isn't as bad as what some people think. I don't about the humanities and social sciences, so I can't comment. I am knowledgeable about biomedical research, science, and medicine - so here I can comment on it, Toronto is light years ahead of everyone.

York's MBA program is top notch, that I know. Keep in mind that different schools have different strenghths - Ryerson gets a lot of slack, but it too is better than the rest in some programs - like journalism or broadcasting (wait, you need a bachelors for broadcasting?).

Seriously, other than York, Ryerson, Toronto, Western, Queens, Guelph, Waterloo, and McMaster - I don't know why people even bother at the other ON schools...like lakehead or laurentian??? or trent??? what a joke! lol.

Isn't Schulich School of Business one of the top in Canada?

Regarding Lakehead and Laurentian, I've heard what they lack in research and funding they make up in teaching quality. Professors who don't hold CRCs or even have labs can spend all their time with students. I would consider this a disadvantage because I like to a nice balance of self-study and prof/TA assisted learning.

That's a myth. A lot of U of T students go onto med school - it's just that the first year life science class is like 1500 students, so a lot of ppl also get screwed over. In fact, a good % of U of T's med school class are U of T students.

I hope this is true lol! They say they have an obligation to the GTA, but there is no preferential treatment.

SOOO, in conclusion, in keeping with the original theme of the thread, UofT is definately overlooked too much by intls wanting a Canadian seat. McGill is great (hoping for interview!), but I guess relies a lot on its prestige. In actual figures, as you quoted above (if research is an indicator of quality, which I think it is), UofT is unparalleled in Canada, and North America. I want to spend many more years here.

 

[blowe46]

I find most canadian medical schools to be overrated. U of T , Mcgill are good schools but they're not equivalent to the upper tier of American schools. U of T program in medicine is still the same didactic lectures that were used 30 years ago. However, since they receive the largest funding in Canada they can use their research to boast their hospitals and enhance the reputation of the medical school. Oddly, most of the best researchers at U of T come from top tier American universities, which means that the medical school itself is just a by-product of american influence and not that school's ingenuity in the field of medical teaching.

Mcgill was once considered the top institution in Canada, with its outstanding research and close affiliations with US medical centers. Sadly, funding issues and provincial turmoil hindered its progress. Once again, their school uses a classical program, and with no real difference from U of T.

I am not here writing a long diatribe about the state of Canadian medicine but I do feel that its overhyped. Because there are so few medical schools in Canada, and many are centered in Ontario, that many qualified students are rejected by the harsh cutoff scheme.

I think Canadian schools are on par with most state schools, and behind some of the better state programs such as SUNY or the California system.

those are just my two cents.

 

[JCYC5]

As a student applying from Hong Kong to UT, Queens, Western and U Alberta... which of these universities would offer the greatest chance to get into a good medical school (provided I work at the same level regardless of which university I am in?)

Not too sure about the GPA system, as I am in a IB school...

 

[xylem29]

Well - I can only speak from first hand experience.

1st year life sci at U of T is not a cake-walk, it's not moderate, it's 100% full intensity. So make no mistake, you will need dedication and hard work to make it past 1st year. You will also need to know people from 2nd year who can give you their old tests, lab reports, quizzes in order to have a fair shot. Some courses will actually SELL an official package of old tests and exams for you - proof, that if you don't know what type of questions they ask, you can study all you want, but you're asking for trouble. It's not like highschool at all - old tests are encouraged.

If you are the type who doesn't use old lab reports or old tests - then I'm sorry, you better have an above average intelligence because first year at Toronto is a WEED OUT year. You have to study hard, and study efficiently. Cramming and last minute studying will get you screwed over - unless you have an above average IQ. DON'T FALL BEHIND.

This is what your first year will be if you are in life sci

*Calculus
*Orgo or Physical Chem (one in each semester, but will have done both by end of 1st year)
*Physics
*Biology (NOT molecular - this is an introduction to evolution, earth science, ecology, behavioral biology, population genetics)
*Elective

Therefore - if you want to ask about the greatest chances of getting into medical school, it's the school where you think you can get the highest GPA.

 

[JCYC5]

That sounds very scary indeed...dang.

I don't know anyone at all in Toronto who can help me out in that aspect...

I am going into Life Sci indeed... picked Molecular Bio as possible major on OUAC...

How would one decide / find out where the highest GPA can be gained?

Thank you very much!!

 

[xylem29]

Well it's basically through hearsay and word of mouth.

Just to let you know - it doesn't matter what program you specify as your major because everyone entering first year life science takes the same first year courses. Then after first year - you apply for your major or specialty. Quick note - there's about 10-15 different programs you can choose at U of T in life science and they are separated into Type 1, 2, and 3 programs.

Type 3 programs have limited spots and have course and GPA requirements.

Type 2 programs simply have course requirements. (I did a type 2 program).

Type 1 programs have no requirements, and you can choose these and you'll get into them.

Advice - Type 3 programs include Immunology, Laboratory Medicine and Pathobiology, Molecular Biology and Genetics, Biochemistry, and Pharmacology and Toxicology. These are very challenging programs because of the courses you take in 2nd and 3rd year, so don't let an ego get in the way of your choice, just because a program only accepts students with the highest gpa's, doesn't mean they will help you get into medical school - b/c med school's don't give preference to your major.

I know in biochemistry, in 2nd year, there is a lab course that is only worth 0.5 credits but it runs for the entire year - so students, in order to finish with a full course load (5.0 credits) end up taking 6 courses in 2nd semester! Now that is fcked up IMO. (Full course load means you take 5 courses each semester, you can't redistribute them so that you take less in one, and more in the other).

Don't fret though - I don't mean to scare you. Here's why -

At U of T, the most difficult year in Life Scicence (or premed as the americans call it) is the first year. Once you get past the first year, things aren's so bad. Especially when you get to 3rd and 4th year - your classes go from 1500 students to 20-100 by 4th year and it's much easier to consistently get 80+.

In addition - school's like Western and Queens will consider your two best years or last two years, or something like that. So that even if you have a bad gpa in your first two years at U of T, if you can rock your last two years - you can have a cGPA of 3.1 and still get into these two schools if say your last two years you had 3.8+.

U of T, cares a lot about applicants taking full course loads - so again, if you take a full load all 4 years, they will drop the worst mark from each year and re-calculate your GPA for you. Which means students can have a 3.67 overall gpa, but with U of T's formula - they can jump to 3.9 (provided they take a full course load every year).

Okay from hearsay - life science at York, Western, Queens, and any other school other than U of T is easier to get a high gpa. I don't know if this is true though.

 

[JCYC5]

Wow...thank you for that wonderfully informative post!!

That really helped me...

One last question though; would Western/Queens be a better idea for undergrad instead of UT? (To get a high GPA?)

Would a GPA of say, 3.5 at UT be considered lower than a 3.9 at Queens/Western in the eyes of the med school admissions officer? Or would they realize that a high GPA is harder to obtain in UT?

 

[xylem29]

That sounds very scary indeed...dang.

I don't know anyone at all in Toronto who can help me out in that aspect...

I am going into Life Sci indeed... picked Molecular Bio as possible major on OUAC...

How would one decide / find out where the highest GPA can be gained?

Thank you very much!!

By the way - you sound like someone who is quite serious about this, since you are already on SDN. Is your overall grade between 85 % - 100% ?? I know that IB is a pretty challenging program - so if you're already doing IB, and you are doing well, you might very well be a student who would thrive at Toronto. It's all about a good work ethic.

 

[JCYC5]

I'm currently a predicted 40 / 45... which I guess is decently high in terms of the IB. The minimum score required for most Canadian universities is 32 or so.

Quite serious indeed! I guess my high school has planted the idea of being clear about future studies pretty deep... However, I'm just starting to realize the extent to which medicine will be a challenge - and not just mainly in med school! (as this thread shows so well!).

 

[xylem29]

Wow...thank you for that wonderfully informative post!!

That really helped me...

One last question though; would Western/Queens be a better idea for undergrad instead of UT? (To get a high GPA?)

Would a GPA of say, 3.5 at UT be considered lower than a 3.9 at Queens/Western in the eyes of the med school admissions officer? Or would they realize that a high GPA is harder to obtain in UT?

No, they don't do that.

In Ontario - the application process is centralized through a system called OMSAS (like AMCAS). Different schools have different GPA calculations - like an 85 at U of T is a 4.0 but at another school it might be 3.7. So account for these differences, OMSAS ends up standardizing everyone's GPA so everyone is equal.

So no, a 3.5 at UT is not a 3.9 at Queens unless your last two years happen to be 3.9. Noboday cares about "harder to obtain" - but I will offer my own opinions on this:

U of Toronto's med school scares students all the time - their presentations (In first year orientation, life sci kids get to go to a presentation from UT's med school) always make a point of getting across that they don't care where you are from, what school you went to, etc. They don't give preference to UT students or what major you did.

They do say however - that they encourage student to take a full course load, to pursue a "rigorous program of study" (that's a direct quote), and to be coherent with their course selections. So if you want to take a lot of bird courses to boost your GPA, or take a lot of 2nd year courses when you are in 4th year, they discourage that.

The end result of course - is that close to 50% of UT's med school class went to UT for undergrad. This is because, UT likes "rigorous programs of study" and they know that UT's life sci undergrad is indeed "rigorous". This is my suspicion. I find that the UT formula for dropping your worst grade from each year, is a way to help UT students out. Because many amazingly bright students at UT do sometimes get screwed over in the harder programs like biochem and finish with a 3.71 while someone doing botany finishes with a 3.88 - but when reweighted, again, these bright kids end up having an amazing GPA.

 

[JCYC5]

So theoretically, taking a full course load at another university with "useful" courses will be as good as the UT course in terms of med school app, with the advantage of possibly having easier time in achieving higher final GPA?

This is, of course, without taking into account UT's dropping of the worst grade...

 

[MadHopsMD]

I dont like to boast but I think if I didnt go into biochem/mgb route and went instead to Human Bio or Botany I would have a higher GPA. Mine ended up 3.72. In fact, I would go back in time and transfer to UWO. UofT is out to get you!

Either way, if you are choosing a school, I suggest you go to UWO. It's an awesome school, with lots of oppurtunities. Also amcas gives you a favourable scale.

According to AMCAS UWO scale is:
80+ is a 4.0
70-79 is a 3.0

While according to AMCAS UofT scale is:
85+ is a 4.0
80-84 is a 3.7
76-79 is a 3.3
72-75 is a 3.0

For example, if you calculate my GPA western style I end up with a 3.85 (because of 10 A- and only 2 B+). Thats 0.13 HIGHER!

And going to US schools, they dont even know about UofT, so it doesnt matter where you go for undergrad in Canada. SO if you think reputation might help you, you are wrong.

Choose UWO! UofT is a great school but its not friendly. Like my brother and Keyser112 can attest...they really are trying to get you and smack your GPA down.

 

[JCYC5]

Is the scholar's electives worth doing at UWO? Would it help with getting into / getting through med school?

 

[xylem29]

So theoretically, taking a full course load at another university with "useful" courses will be as good as the UT course in terms of med school app, with the advantage of possibly having easier time in achieving higher final GPA?

This is, of course, without taking into account UT's dropping of the worst grade...

This is correct.

 

[coffeebythelake]

I dont like to boast but I think if I didnt go into biochem/mgb route and went instead to Human Bio or Botany I would have a higher GPA. Mine ended up 3.72. In fact, I would go back in time and transfer to UWO. UofT is out to get you!

This is true.

 

[Blackkeys]

One last question though; would Western/Queens be a better idea for undergrad instead of UT? (To get a high GPA?)

Would a GPA of say, 3.5 at UT be considered lower than a 3.9 at Queens/Western in the eyes of the med school admissions officer? Or would they realize that a high GPA is harder to obtain in UT?[/quote]


I think that most schools don't give a rat's *ss where you did your undergrad - it's your GPA that counts, period. So a 3.5 from U of T is still 0.4 points lower than a 3.9 from anywhere else. In Ontario, though, you should be aware that schools that have A+'s in their grading system will require that you score over 90% to attain a 4.0 whereas at other schools that don't have A+'s you only need an 85%. Check it out on the OMSAS conversion scale. Best to go someplace where you can succeed, period, in something that you find interesting - but if you're going to be scoring between 85 - 99 in any course, you will get ripped off in the final calculation if your school offers A+'s. I hope I communicated this clearly..

good luck !

 

[xylem29]

One last question though; would Western/Queens be a better idea for undergrad instead of UT? (To get a high GPA?)

Would a GPA of say, 3.5 at UT be considered lower than a 3.9 at Queens/Western in the eyes of the med school admissions officer? Or would they realize that a high GPA is harder to obtain in UT?

I think that most schools don't give a rat's *ss where you did your undergrad - it's your GPA that counts, period. So a 3.5 from U of T is still 0.4 points lower than a 3.9 from anywhere else. In Ontario, though, you should be aware that schools that have A+'s in their grading system will require that you score over 90% to attain a 4.0 whereas at other schools that don't have A+'s you only need an 85%. Check it out on the OMSAS conversion scale. Best to go someplace where you can succeed, period, in something that you find interesting - but if you're going to be scoring between 85 - 99 in any course, you will get ripped off in the final calculation if your school offers A+'s. I hope I communicated this clearly..

good luck ![/QUOTE]

True. At UT, 85 and over is a 4.0. But on the OMSAS scale, 90 and over is 4.0. So you get jipped as a result.

 

[Keyser112]

I'm not sure what you mean by Western not being "friendly" but I can give you a story about how 'friendly' the professors here really are. When my older brother attended Western, (a year before I came) he seriously broke his leg (it was really bad). He could not make it to classes as it was winter and he did not have a wheelchair and did not want to get one for just the winter.
His professors (3 out of 4) created PERSONAL web pages for him to download lecture notes and post any discussion questions he had (this was before WEBCT was in largescale use)

U of T? Definitely not friendly. If you ever want to get a letter of recommendation don't even bother going there. 1st and 2nd year classes are massive and are held in a lecture hall that is a theatre.
To be a bit more visual, it has three separate screens so that people on the third balconies can see the slides.

You are a number there, not a name, and there is little in terms of social life (except for the city which is kick a$$)

I dont like to boast but I think if I didnt go into biochem/mgb route and went instead to Human Bio or Botany I would have a higher GPA. Mine ended up 3.72. In fact, I would go back in time and transfer to UWO. UofT is out to get you!

Either way, if you are choosing a school, I suggest you go to UWO. It's an awesome school, with lots of oppurtunities. Also amcas gives you a favourable scale.

According to AMCAS UWO scale is:
80+ is a 4.0
70-79 is a 3.0

While according to AMCAS UofT scale is:
85+ is a 4.0
80-84 is a 3.7
76-79 is a 3.3
72-75 is a 3.0

For example, if you calculate my GPA western style I end up with a 3.85 (because of 10 A- and only 2 B+). Thats 0.13 HIGHER!

And going to US schools, they dont even know about UofT, so it doesnt matter where you go for undergrad in Canada. SO if you think reputation might help you, you are wrong.

Choose UWO! UofT is a great school but its not friendly. Like my brother and Keyser112 can attest...they really are trying to get you and smack your GPA down.

 

[degoo_]

haha, that's so true about the LORs. Unless you get into a lab or TA or something, its impossible to get a good LOR from a prof. This is true everywhere, but its much worse at UofT.

I didn't know Western had such a favourable conversion to AMCAS GPA. Why is that? What is the basis behind it. At Western, is a 4.0= 85+? That doesn't seem to fair to me.

 

[MadHopsMD]

haha, that's so true about the LORs. Unless you get into a lab or TA or something, its impossible to get a good LOR from a prof. This is true everywhere, but its much worse at UofT.

I didn't know Western had such a favourable conversion to AMCAS GPA. Why is that? What is the basis behind it. At Western, is a 4.0= 85+? That doesn't seem to fair to me.

OMSAS and AMCAS use different scales.

Yes 4.0 is 80+ at western according to AMCAS.

 

[JCYC5]

Sounds like there isn't much advantage to going to UT for undergrad if I was to stay in Canada for med school...

Would the Scholar's Electives at Western help in anyway? (Apart from getting to know a prof or two very well indeed).

 

[):(]

I'm whispering UBC in your ear...unless you are international

 

[JCYC5]

Too late for that...applied to UT, Western, Queens and UAlberta...

And I am coming from Hong Kong, though I am a Canadian citizen...

 

[blowe46]

OMSAS and AMCAS use different scales.

Yes 4.0 is 80+ at western according to AMCAS.

wait! western students with an 80+ in a course get it counted as a 4.0 GPA?????????????????? what the heck?

you have to get an 85+ to get it counted as 4.0 at U of T?

 

[JCYC5]

Exactly why I'm almost certain UT is not the place for me now...

Given the population body, that 5% will be very tight indeed...

Western here I come!

No one from Queens around to try convince me to go to Queens? 😛

 

[MadHopsMD]

wait! western students with an 80+ in a course get it counted as a 4.0 GPA?????????????????? what the heck?

you have to get an 85+ to get it counted as 4.0 at U of T?

yap. but remember also that 3,0 at western is from 70 to 79. they dont reward a 3.3 like toronto does for a B+ (76-79).

 

[xylem29]

OMSAS and AMCAS use different scales.

Yes 4.0 is 80+ at western according to AMCAS.

anyway - who cares about this difference, we're all getting into med school anyway.

i'll still always have the pleasure in knowing that i actually went through hell at UT and while someone from york or western or some joke school program like life science at ryerson can get by without having to worry about courses that are meant to screw you over - i feel pretty good that i survived toronto.

i got my skin thickened, i know what it takes to stay up all night - and because your school schedules your exams on monday, tuesday, weds, thursday back to back, knowing that life science students will be taking all 4 courses, so it's not a coincidence - busting your a** and still getting screwed because even the brightest and hardest working student, cannot get around situations like this - sometimes, you get screwed and your effort doens't mean a thing. luckily, this improves your work ethic to the point where as soon as that good year hits, or that "not out to screw you" course
comes along - your resourcefulness in using old tests for practice and, obviously already higher than york students IQ, let's you rock that year with 97s and a 4.0 year.

wow - i'm still feeling the effects of this fcked up school....

the rigor all works out in the end my friends - b/c when U of T, St. George ( the other two "satellite" campuses are jokes too) students get to graduate school, they know things students from york or UT Scarborough wouldn't know, that is, UToronto students are ahead - and this is from friends accounts - b/c the Toronto courses are more complete and you get taught the things that professors from UT Scarborough deem too detailed and unecessary, well guess what? we at st george gotta learn that crap!.

whew, got that outta my system!

 

[MadHopsMD]

anyway - who cares about this difference, we're all getting into med school anyway.

i'll still always have the pleasure in knowing that i actually went through hell at UT and while someone from york or western or some joke school program like life science at ryerson can get by without having to worry about courses that are meant to screw you over - i feel pretty good that i survived toronto.

i got my skin thickened, i know what it takes to stay up all night - and because your school schedules your exams on monday, tuesday, weds, thursday back to back, knowing that life science students will be taking all 4 courses, so it's not a coincidence - busting your a** and still getting screwed because even the brightest and hardest working student, cannot get around situations like this - sometimes, you get screwed and your effort doens't mean a thing. luckily, this improves your work ethic to the point where as soon as that good year hits, or that "not out to screw you" course
comes along - your resourcefulness in using old tests for practice and, obviously already higher than york students IQ, let's you rock that year with 97s and a 4.0 year.

wow - i'm still feeling the effects of this fcked up school....

the rigor all works out in the end my friends - b/c when U of T, St. George ( the other two "satellite" campuses are jokes too) students get to graduate school, they know things students from york or UT Scarborough wouldn't know - and this is from friends accounts - b/c the Toronto courses are more complete and rigorous.

What you say is true. I just dont want future students to make the same 'mistake' i did by going to uoft. But you are right....i dont care anymore 😀

 

[boulux]

McGill is not even the best medical school in the city. No offense, but U of Montreal has finished #1 school in MCC licensing exams for the past 7 years.

http://www.iforum.umontreal.ca/DesNouvellesDe/2006-2007/20061031_MedecineMeilleursFinissants.html

 

[blowe46]

yap. but remember also that 3,0 at western is from 70 to 79. they dont reward a 3.3 like toronto does for a B+ (76-79).

I dont' care about the Western scale, but does the AMCAS scale follow the same pattern? 80+ =4.0 and 70-79=3.0?

that's not even close to being fair! because a U of T student with a 70-72 gets a 2.7 and not a 3.0. Does AMCAS create these scales out of the blue?

 

[MadHopsMD]

I dont' care about the Western scale, but does the AMCAS scale follow the same pattern? 80+ =4.0 and 70-79=3.0?

YES!!!!!!!!!!!

that's not even close to being fair! because a U of T student with a 70-72 gets a 2.7 and not a 3.0. Does AMCAS create these scales out of the blue?

donno...but life aint fair 😛 suck it up

 

[blowe46]

you have to admit that it's pretty dumb.

 

[PermanentWaves]

the rigor all works out in the end my friends - b/c when U of T, St. George ( the other two "satellite" campuses are jokes too)....

I disagree. I go to UTM and I can tell you that a lot of our professors teach at all campuses (this is especially the case during summer courses). Our life sci classes are weed-out classes also: calculus (D+ average), full year bio (D+ average), first year g-chem (C- average), 2nd semester organic chem (D average), physical chemistry (D+ average), statistics (D+ average) etc. We are extremely detail-heavy and exams are ambiguous such that no one walks out of exam rooms with confidence. Is this a matter of St. George students just being smarter? I suppose that's always possible, but I doubt it. According to one of my professors, UTM students do just as well as U of T and UTSC students on standardized exams (GRE, GMAT, MCAT, LSAT, etc.). I myself know about 4 people who scored in the 97th or above percentile on the MCAT. Which is pretty good considering the number of people at UTM who still want to go to med school now in our 4th year bio classes has dwindled considerably over the years from the number who wanted to when we started in first year.

Furthermore, the publications which our faculty and staff receive regarding grading and adjusting marks is the same publication that all U of T school faculty receive. They adjust the bell-curve exactly the same as any U of T school (St. George and UTSC included). In fact, one of my marks from this past semester was delayed from being posted. When I went to see the professor in charge, his response was: "The marks in the class were too high. The department has approved it and it is now under review by the Dean." I had already calculated what my mark should have been in the class and he advised me that my mark could go DOWN to fit the curve. Hence, some of our professors actually think it's EASIER to go to St. George with the larger class sizes. When you get to 3rd and 4th year here, some of your classes are like 30-40 people, almost all of whom are likely used to getting As in their classes. Yet the curve must be distributed such that the average is C+. Basic statistics: when sample sizes are smaller, it becomes harder to approximate a normal distribution. Hence, they surprisingly often pull down course marks to fit the bell curve.

Again, I realize you've only heard third-party accounts as you obviously go to St. George, but I thought you should hear it straight from the source.

 

[4paw]

obviously already higher than york students IQ, let's you rock that year with 97s and a 4.0 year.

wow - i'm still feeling the effects of this fcked up school....

QUOTE]

You sure are! The highschool I went to is part of UofT - U.T.S.. A person can go to any school they want to after that. Many decided on schools other than UofT, and not because they need something easy. Some of the 'best and brightest' went to York. In my case, I selected the university based on political culture, and excellence in the arts. UofT has a strong programme, but the slant of the professors is a little more conservative than I like. You know not of what you speak. I do feel your pain though. I know that UofT life sciences is hard in terms of work-load, and inflexibility in deadlines. Your exam schedule problems are not unique to UofT. However, the classes I have taken at UofT have been some of my best marks. They were also labour-intensive (language) and in fact, the second-year course is equivalent only to the first-year course at York. Sure, the argument can be that we're applying for medicine. And many people equate that with science. I'd argue though that this is a serious problem, since medicine is indeed also part of culture and is a healing art. Proper training in the humanities is crucial - if not in all people, at least in a balance of the medical community. Many aspects of medicine are cultural - the behavioural approaches, the community approaches, etc. and it is no surprise to me that at this time these areas of medicine are severely lacking in effectiveness. To sum up, to address the art/cultural practice part of medicine, people need to be well-trained in the arts/humanities - i.e. the critical thinking, the analysis of culture, etc. Not all, but a balance within the medical community. For that to happen, schools need to be evaluated for their arts programmes too. On this point, York takes high marks. The school has been at the forefront of how to approach social justice and health from a social, cultural, political and legal angle. Many people choose York for those reasons.

 

[Marquis_Phoenix]

It's because Mcgill had William Osler who went onto become one of the founding physicians of John Hopkins. So there's always been a connection between the US and Mcgill given that one of their graduates had an enormous influence on US medicine.

University of Toronto's historical equivalent of Osler is Banting and Best, who discovered insulin back in 1923 around the same time frame. They didn't really have any connection/influence in the US however.