Here's a real life example of a new doctor's salary...

[Moonglow]

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I believe the $4k/mo was b/c the intent was to pay off the debt in 5yrs. (OP forgot to calculate interest into that $240k though).

The interest, at a fixed rate, is included in the monthly payment. I rounded off the numbers listed in the OP, but the following are exact:

Her medical school loans totaled $200,000, to be repaid via a Citi Bank private loan over 60 months with 7.00% interest totaling $237,614.40, or $3960.24 per month.

 

[mvenus929]

Not always true...it really depends on a whole variety of factors...interest rate on your loans, amount of money you're making on your savings/investment, does your employer match funds for retirement/401k, rate of inflation, etc.

As long as you have a relatively low interest rate there is usually not a financial reason to pay off your loans as quickly as possible.

I don't count 401k, because it's pre-tax. I put like 3% of my meager paycheck towards retirement (I have a whopping $200 whoo!), and don't consider that in my budget calculations.

If you're just sticking that income in a savings account, the most you will make is like 2% interest. No loan is going to have interest that low, so you will be losing money. Investments get a little more complicated.

Take the initial $240K loan, starting today. If interest is 6.9% (I'm not sure what federal interest rates are right now, but that's about what the interest on my loan is right now), the interest alone will be over $1k per month. If you pay $2k a month, you'll be done in 2026 (15 years). You'll also pay out $168k in interest alone. If you pay $4k a month, you'll be done in 2013 (5 years) and will pay out $55k in interest. That's a savings of $113k.

If you pay the $2k a month and invested the other $2k at a rate of 7.5% (generous, I think, and just for demonstration purposes), you will get $355k over the 10 additional years it'll take to pay off the loan, but you'll only bank $242k of that, because you'll be paying all that interest. If you invest $4k (the total amount you have available after you finish paying off you loan in 5 years) for those ten years, you'll bank $711k, because you won't have additional interest to pay.

So, I was mistaken. You may not end up paying out more than you save, but you certainly will be saving a lot more if you pay off the loan first.

 

[tncekm]

The interest, at a fixed rate, is included in the monthly payment. I rounded off the numbers listed in the OP, but the following are exact:

Her medical school loans totaled $200,000, to be repaid via a Citi Bank private loan over 60 months with 7.00% interest totaling $237,614.40, or $3960.24 per month.

Oh, gotcha. I didn't catch that earlier. Thx for the heads up.

 

[Narmerguy]

I believe the $4k/mo was b/c the intent was to pay off the debt in 5yrs. (OP forgot to calculate interest into that $240k though).

Where does a Med student even find the income to pay $4k a month let a lone an extra $600??

 

[LizzyM]

Where does a Med student even find the income to pay $4k a month let a lone an extra $600??

I'm pretty sure that the med school budget from coldweatherblue is based on borrowing for tuition and living expenses.

 

[KingstonPre]

Good thing we're pre-meds and not realtors 🙂

$1800 on the lower west side of manhattan is cheap. Anywhere else it's pretty upscale. It's a buyers market right now.

well if she has baby then chances are she'll have a husband too and that's an extra income.

Good call.

 

[foster033]

I don't count 401k, because it's pre-tax. I put like 3% of my meager paycheck towards retirement (I have a whopping $200 whoo!), and don't consider that in my budget calculations.

If you're just sticking that income in a savings account, the most you will make is like 2% interest. No loan is going to have interest that low, so you will be losing money. Investments get a little more complicated.

Take the initial $240K loan, starting today. If interest is 6.9% (I'm not sure what federal interest rates are right now, but that's about what the interest on my loan is right now), the interest alone will be over $1k per month. If you pay $2k a month, you'll be done in 2026 (15 years). You'll also pay out $168k in interest alone. If you pay $4k a month, you'll be done in 2013 (5 years) and will pay out $55k in interest. That's a savings of $113k.

If you pay the $2k a month and invested the other $2k at a rate of 7.5% (generous, I think, and just for demonstration purposes), you will get $355k over the 10 additional years it'll take to pay off the loan, but you'll only bank $242k of that, because you'll be paying all that interest. If you invest $4k (the total amount you have available after you finish paying off you loan in 5 years) for those ten years, you'll bank $711k, because you won't have additional interest to pay.

So, I was mistaken. You may not end up paying out more than you save, but you certainly will be saving a lot more if you pay off the loan first.

You're looking at this very simplistically...it's great to use rough numbers for an estimate, but the exact amount of money is not the only thing to factor in...
Currently most of my undergrad loans are a fixed rate of about 3%...this gives me very little incentive to pay them off as quickly as possible because I do not have exorbitant amounts of disposable income. It is of more value to me to live comfortably and have a decent amount of savings than to get rid of my loans as quickly as possible. The younger you start saving for retirement the more money you will end up with in the long run.

I don't understand your point about 401k being pre-tax or why that's important...my point in bring it up is that many employers will match 401k funds up to a certain percentage of your pay so it's wise to contribute at least this much b/c it amounts to free money.

Something I overlooked in your first post.. you recommend only saving a months worth of expenses and then using all your money to pay down your loans....I don't know at what point you're at in your life (undergrad, employment, etc.) but just an FYI for everyone out there...this is a horrible idea! Most experts will recommend that you have at least 6 months worth of expenses saved, and with the recent economy many are now saying 8-12 months. Yes, being a physician is fairly stable, but you should always be ready for the unexpected.

 

[coldweatherblue]

I'm pretty sure that the med school budget from coldweatherblue is based on borrowing for tuition and living expenses.

lol, thanks LizzyM! yeah several people misinterpreted my post. I only meant to show an example of a *medical student's* budget, compared with an attending. So the attending is spending $4k a month paying off loans; I'm spending $4k a month *on medical school* and $700 a month on rent/gas/food/everything else. My income is 100% loans, and the vast majority of it goes towards tuition.

 

[johncalvin]

Question about med school loans:

If (God forbid) a medical student dies, do parents/spouses/children have to pick up the tab for loans already dispersed?

 

[LizzyM]

Question about med school loans:

If (God forbid) a medical student dies, do parents/spouses/children have to pick up the tab for loans already dispersed?

My loans (grad school not med school) would have been forgiven by the lender if I died.

 

[mannyowens]

Thanks A lot for posting. It is quite informative and frankly we could use more realistic posts like these on student doc. it really put things in perspective for me personally. Thanks again

 

[justdoit31]

My loans would all be cancelled and forgiven by my loan company if I was to die.

 

[maceo]

As part of my job, I work with Internal Medicine physicians who finished residency, and are looking for work.

Here's is a real example:

Female, unmarried, no children, 29 years-old - just finished three years of Internal Medicine residency at the hospital represented by my avatar. She decided to accept a five year contract to work as a hospitalist in another state starting November 1. Contract is with the hospital owned P.A. and stipulates: twelve hours per shift, alternating seven days on, seven days off (28 weeks of work time per year); she will work flexible hours, sometimes nights, others days. She wants the every other week schedule for personal reasons, and so that she can have the chance to do some clinical research. She has decided to pay off all of her student loans over the next five years; with interest, $240,000.

Here's her budget:

$180,000 gross in pay per year (plus annual bonus, ~ $5000)
$63,000 in taxes per year @ 35% rate
$117,000 take home pay per year

$9750 per month take home pay

----------------------------------------------------------

Average per month expenses:

$1800 mortgage/insurance for 2 bed, 2 bath upscale condo
$120 cable/internet
$150 gas/electric/water (higher per month in summer lower in winter)
$750 car payment/insurance
$150 gasoline
$120 cellphone
$400 food/dining
$200 misc entertainment (netflix, online music websites, movies, etc.)
$400 misc other (her consumer buying allowance, travel)
$4000 student loans

$8150 total

$1660 go into savings

----------------------------------------------------------

At the end of her five year contract she will be 34 years old, have five years of equity in her home, own her car, have her student loans paid, and have $100,000 cash in the bank.

best part of that whole thing is the 28 weeks off.. actually not bad salary for 2 weeks worth of work per month and no call.. if this hospitalist thing picks up.. people may be fighting to get into IM programs.. LOL

 

[sustentacular]

My loans would all be cancelled and forgiven by my loan company if I was to die.

This is why you should not opt to consolidate your student loans with that of a spouse. If one of you were to die the surviving spouse would be responsible for the entirety of the consolidated debt.

 

[tncekm]

Where does a Med student even find the income to pay $4k a month let a lone an extra $600??

Those numbers were for a practicing physician, not a med student 🙂

 

[TooMuchResearch]

Good post, OP 👍

 

[foster033]

This is why you should not opt to consolidate your student loans with that of a spouse. If one of you were to die the surviving spouse would be responsible for the entirety of the consolidated debt.

It's also another good reason to not pay down your loans at the expense of savings, especially if you have a significant other or a family.

 

[oaklandguy]

I'll bet the savings never happens and that money instead goes to daily life. Life never fits within the margins but your point is well taken that 200k in student loans isn't crushing by any means.

Did you not read the Original Post? 2 sets of miscellaneous spending were in there. Life throws things @ you, but at the same time, not $1,600 worth of things.

 

[tncekm]

Life is almonst always within what my wife and I project. It's not that difficult to be realistic about what you can, and do spend.

 

[LiveUninhibited]

No raises in 5 years?

Probably cancels out with the cost of living adjustments.

True she only work every other week, but when you add up the hours it is still more than the standard 40 hr work week (2000 hrs a year). She's working at least 84 hrs on those weeks (assuming she can actually go home after 12 hrs. The hospitalists where I moonlight are lucky if they only work 12 hr days the weeks they are on.)

Well, the issue always comes down to what people think "nicely" means.

I think 7 days of 12s are brutal, and I imagine she's going to look to change that schedule up before too long.

It's 42 hours per week average. Nothing to cry about. Though it'd be nice if it were balanced better like: Four 12's one week and three 12's the next, alternating... and then do 7 in a row if one wanted to take a vacation. But that would be in a perfect world.

 

[armybound]

Probably cancels out with the cost of living adjustments.





It's 42 hours per week average. Nothing to cry about. Though it'd be nice if it were balanced better like: Four 12's one week and three 12's the next, alternating... and then do 7 in a row if one wanted to take a vacation. But that would be in a perfect world.

I can do math, but an 84 hour week and a week off is not the same as two 42-hour weeks.

 

[armybound]

If you were to do a poll and ask people if they would prefer to work 82 hours on week and have the next week off compared to two 42 hour week every week, the week off would win. Trust me on that. I would rather work 90 hours on week and enjoy the week off doing stuff I love outside of my job.

what "people" would we be asking? pre-meds who haven't worked a single 12-hour shift in their life, or residents, etc who have gone through that kind of hell?

 

[tncekm]

what "people" would we be asking? pre-meds who haven't worked a single 12-hour shift in their life, or residents, etc who have gone through that kind of hell?

👍

For me, quality of life means I don't hate myself for 26 weeks of the year.

 

[HurricaneKatt]

As part of my job, I work with Internal Medicine physicians who finished residency, and are looking for work.

Here's is a real example:

Female, unmarried, no children, 29 years-old - just finished three years of Internal Medicine residency at the hospital represented by my avatar. She decided to accept a five year contract to work as a hospitalist in another state starting November 1. Contract is with the hospital owned P.A. and stipulates: twelve hours per shift, alternating seven days on, seven days off (28 weeks of work time per year); she will work flexible hours, sometimes nights, others days. She wants the every other week schedule for personal reasons, and so that she can have the chance to do some clinical research. She has decided to pay off all of her student loans over the next five years; with interest, $240,000.

Here's her budget:

$180,000 gross in pay per year (plus annual bonus, ~ $5000)
$63,000 in taxes per year @ 35% rate
$117,000 take home pay per year

$9750 per month take home pay

----------------------------------------------------------

Average per month expenses:

$1800 mortgage/insurance for 2 bed, 2 bath upscale condo
$120 cable/internet
$150 gas/electric/water (higher per month in summer lower in winter)
$750 car payment/insurance
$150 gasoline
$120 cellphone
$400 food/dining
$200 misc entertainment (netflix, online music websites, movies, etc.)
$400 misc other (her consumer buying allowance, travel)
$4000 student loans

$8150 total

$1660 go into savings

----------------------------------------------------------

At the end of her five year contract she will be 34 years old, have five years of equity in her home, own her car, have her student loans paid, and have $100,000 cash in the bank.

Man! Want to help me lay out my budget? 😉 I have a lot less funds to work with though! haha The above seems great to me - a week on and a week off would giver her time for a personal life and possibly a family later, etc... Awesome, thanks for posting this it was cool to see! 🙂👍

 

[HurricaneKatt]

Did you not read the Original Post? 2 sets of miscellaneous spending were in there. Life throws things @ you, but at the same time, not $1,600 worth of things.

I strongly disagree. Sometimes life DOES thrpw $1600 worth of things at you, either in one piece or in the form of a million things all added up...
My ABS breaks went out and it could cost well into the $1,000-2,000 range to get them fixed (luckily I still have normal brakes...who needs ABS? 🙄) Plus other stuff that has come up that I need to pay for.
What if she is in a car accident? What if her condo burns? What if she needs expensive mechanical work done on her car, and has to pay for a rental in the meanwhile and has to replace her tall lamp after knocking it over and the coffee machine breaks and...things can easily add up.

That said, it is not likely and I am sure she will be able to stay within the budget pretty close. 😉👍

 

[LizzyM]

Life is almonst always within what my wife and I project. It's not that difficult to be realistic about what you can, and do spend.

How about an illness or injury? I don't see anything in this budget for health insurance (most employers require cost sharing these days) or some money set aside for deductable & copays and routine care. Ditto for dental care.

 

[tncekm]

How about an illness or injury? I don't see anything in this budget for health insurance (most employers require cost sharing these days) or some money set aside for deductable & copays and routine care. Ditto for dental care.

I didn't make the budget in the thread, but in my personal budget (well, really my wife's budget these days... no working while in medical school, lol) we are covered for health insurance and my wife and I have set aside money available to cover deducatibles, time away from work (i.e. loss of job), time without a renter in our rental property, etc.

Now, I do admit there is one big problem: you can't easily cover all your bases and have a McDonald's cashier's income. But, even in that case you should do your best to live within your means.

 

[melanoleuca]

Apropos of nothing, you all have got to stop creating threads purporting to show that some random salary which seems high to you now will actually make it all worth it.

Please. I'd be dead in the water making $180,000 a year. Taxes are a lot more than most of you think and have a way of adding up...things like property taxes for example that can easily soak you for $5000 a year even in normal towns. Not to mention that if you are self-employed (and many physicians working on contracts are self-employed) your payroll taxes are almost 15 percent on the first $109,000 of your gross income. You will lose close to half of your income to taxes of one form or another.

 

[45408]

Apropos of nothing, you all have got to stop creating threads purporting to show that some random salary which seems high to you now will actually make it all worth it.

Please. I'd be dead in the water making $180,000 a year. Taxes are a lot more than most of you think and have a way of adding up...things like property taxes for example that can easily soak you for $5000 a year even in normal towns. Not to mention that if you are self-employed (and many physicians working on contracts are self-employed) your payroll taxes are almost 15 percent on the first $109,000 of your gross income. You will lose close to half of your income to taxes of one form or another.

At least they picked $180,000 instead of $80,000 which is what the trend often seems to be.

 

[Bacchus]

Question about med school loans:

If (God forbid) a medical student dies, do parents/spouses/children have to pick up the tab for loans already dispersed?

My private loans would not be forgiven, however as far as I know, my federal loans will. I have life insurance. It might be morbid, but its realistic.

 

[searun]

Question about med school loans:

If (God forbid) a medical student dies, do parents/spouses/children have to pick up the tab for loans already dispersed?

No, not unless the parents or spouse cosigned on the loan. The general rule is that parents, spouses, and children are not personally liable for repayment of loans incurred by a med student. A spouse can be liable for medical bills incurred by his /her spouse, but not for medical school loans, absent cosigning.

The lender could make a claim against the estate of the deceased med student in your hypothetical, but most med students do not have assets that are greater than their debts, so it would be beating a dead horse for the creditor in most cases because the estate would be insolvent.

 

[Slack3r]

At least they picked $180,000 instead of $80,000 which is what the trend often seems to be.

$180k post-tax wouldn't be so bad, that's usually what average salaries are reported at right [pre-tax]?

 

[melanoleuca]

$180k post-tax wouldn't be so bad, that's usually what average salaries are reported at right [pre-tax]?

Average salaries and salary offers are quoted as pre-tax. Look, $180,000 is not bad for net income...but you will not be rolling in dough. Take 40 percent off for taxes of one form of another and you're left with $108,000. Then, assuming you have the normal debt load you can remove another ten to twenty for debt service...let's say ten and you are down to $98,000.

Now consider somebody making $60,000 per year. With the usual deductions they probably don't pay that much in income tax and, counting payroll tax their net income is about $40 to $45,000 or half of your hypothetical take home for a much easier job, no additional training past college, and no "delayed gratification."

Aside from being a perfect example of how success and enterprise are punished by our corrupt ruling class, I ask you, is this something to jump up and down about? A noted above, at least the OP hypothesized a decent starting salary; the people who opine about the virtue of some hypothetical low figure they would accept ($50,000 seems to be the Holy Grail of altruism) are crazy and would rapidly tire of making less than their garbageman.

 

[sfwusc]

This is probably the most scary part for physicians -- how do you justify a $150,000 to people who average $40k? How do you say "I'm not making enough money" when you're making so much more than they are?

That's why physicians' salaries are so easy to attack.

That may be true, but it isn't the whole picture. They worked 8 years for around $0 dollars. $50k for the school the first 4 years and 4 years residency at $50k.

On top of that... I bet they work/studied 80ish hours a week too. So yea if you work 16 years of a 40 hour a week job for free then making $150k a year doesn't sound so great. (Don't forget you still aren't working 40 hour weeks)


That is the kicker... I bet on average it takes a real long time for doctor to truly catch up to the average person on salary. Assuming they work the same amount of time.

You work two 40 hour a week jobs at 40K each and see how long it takes for the doctor to get ahead.

No Interest.

Year 20

Regular Joe ---- earned $1.60 Million total
Doctor ------- earned $1.8 Million dollars total

So at age 42 or so...the dollar is in the lead and will stay there. There is a taxes to consider as the regular joe is making less per year so will pay less in taxes. Student loan interest isn't helpful if you make more than 70k a year. If regular joe invest his savings them he has those 8 years of interest before the doctor started making any money. Plus, I bet regular jobs have a little less stress.


Doctors don't make as much as everyone thinks. Do not do this for the money or you will regret it.

 

[sfwusc]

what "people" would we be asking? pre-meds who haven't worked a single 12-hour shift in their life, or residents, etc who have gone through that kind of hell?

I am a career changer. I have worked 90+ hour weeks and 18 hour days. It sucks like you can't believe. I have seriously come home and fallen on my bed asleep without changing clothes/taking off shoes. It really wears on you if you do it week after week.

I don't think students understand that after about 60 hours...each hour is a lot more draining than those first hours.

 

[Slack3r]

Average salaries and salary offers are quoted as pre-tax. Look, $180,000 is not bad for net income...but you will not be rolling in dough. Take 40 percent off for taxes of one form of another and you're left with $108,000. Then, assuming you have the normal debt load you can remove another ten to twenty for debt service...let's say ten and you are down to $98,000.

Now consider somebody making $60,000 per year. With the usual deductions they probably don't pay that much in income tax and, counting payroll tax their net income is about $40 to $45,000 or half of your hypothetical take home for a much easier job, no additional training past college, and no "delayed gratification."

Aside from being a perfect example of how success and enterprise are punished by our corrupt ruling class, I ask you, is this something to jump up and down about? A noted above, at least the OP hypothesized a decent starting salary; the people who opine about the virtue of some hypothetical low figure they would accept ($50,000 seems to be the Holy Grail of altruism) are crazy and would rapidly tire of making less than their garbageman.

I never said it was something to jump up and down about nor am I one to accept a pittance of a salary for the "privilege" to perform medicine. I know exactly how much $180k is pre-tax, and while it's a decent middle class living, it's not exactly something I'm aiming for (my goals are set much higher, tyvm). I was merely suggesting that it's not THAT bad for a PCP position and for only 2 weeks/month.

 

[45408]

Did you not read the Original Post? 2 sets of miscellaneous spending were in there. Life throws things @ you, but at the same time, not $1,600 worth of things.

Haha, oh yes, it does. Ever replaced a furnace? Transmission? Paid a deductible and the first 10% out of pocket up to $5000?

Your re-licensing exam is coming up. That'll be $1000.

You backed your car into the pole in the parking structure. $500-1000 deductible for a new bumper.

Your brother is getting married across the country, please buy the plane tickets for you and your spouse, a hotel room for 2-3 nights, rental car, a tux rental, a bridesmaid dress, a gift, and any necessary meals. Bam, $1500.

Life comes at you fast. I had $1400 worth of car repairs in August.

 

[bamtuba]

lol. it was more "entertaining" with mdchemsooneng

Fixed.

😀

 

[tigress]

Question about med school loans:

If (God forbid) a medical student dies, do parents/spouses/children have to pick up the tab for loans already dispersed?

I will tell you from personal experience: no. All federal loans are forgiven. Private loans are different and go into the estate somehow. My husband had no private loans (well actually he had some but we'd already repaid them) so I have no clue how that works. But all $180k of federal loan money just disappeared, so to speak.

 

[tigress]

I have not carefully read through all of the replies here, but what about health insurance? Most people have to pay a portion of their medical insurance costs (it's rare to find an employer who covers 100%). Right now, my biggest expense each month is preschool tuition, and my second is health insurance.

And I can feed myself and 3 kids on $400 a month if I need to. I'm really surprised that people think a single woman couldn't eat for that much a month. 😕

Overall though I agree with the point--the debt load is huge, but most people will be able to live comfortably anyway.

 

[gujuDoc]

The federal gov't estimates a liberal monthly expenditure for food for a woman of that age to be ~$300 (for people living in poverty the allotment is less than half that). $400/mo is more than adequate.

Keep in mind that $300/mo does not include toiletries, paper products, cleaning supplies, etc that are commonly included in the "grocery bill". An extra $100 a month should cover the basics.

Frankly, I'd budget for a housekeeping service twice a month, too.

Even with the basics you could so get on with less then 200 per month.

 

[bannie22]

looks like shes not gonna get married. poor kid.

 

[oze]

I'm less concerned about the taxes than I am with a $400/month food allowance. I couldn't do it.

I eat like a king for $150 a month - including microbrews and wine.

 

[Morsetlis]

No babies? That 34 year old uterus is starting to get a little long in the tooth. Those little kidlets can wreak havoc on your budget but they are worth it. Personally, I want the babies.

If you factor in babies, that budget goes to hell.

Stay at home husband?

Somehow, I think that if you marry, a lot of the costs magically disappear.

 

[flip26]

Missing a few expenses like health insurance, disability insurance, life insurance, dentist visits, maintenance expenses on the condo, car maintenance, clothing budget, etc.

 

[Morsetlis]

If you are single and can't eat on $400/month then stop eating like a horse.

I really have to agree. By the way, two McDoubles = $2. No, that's not healthy. That's why you learn to cook or learn to buy manager's specials at grocery stores. I could survive on $4 a day for food if I wanted to. It wouldn't be ****ty hamburgers, either.

 

[yeastfan21]

Average salaries and salary offers are quoted as pre-tax. Look, $180,000 is not bad for net income...but you will not be rolling in dough. Take 40 percent off for taxes of one form of another and you're left with $108,000. Then, assuming you have the normal debt load you can remove another ten to twenty for debt service...let's say ten and you are down to $98,000.

Now consider somebody making $60,000 per year. With the usual deductions they probably don't pay that much in income tax and, counting payroll tax their net income is about $40 to $45,000 or half of your hypothetical take home for a much easier job, no additional training past college, and no "delayed gratification."

Aside from being a perfect example of how success and enterprise are punished by our corrupt ruling class, I ask you, is this something to jump up and down about? A noted above, at least the OP hypothesized a decent starting salary; the people who opine about the virtue of some hypothetical low figure they would accept ($50,000 seems to be the Holy Grail of altruism) are crazy and would rapidly tire of making less than their garbageman.

It must be fun going through life believing that:
--one's pre-tax salary can be equated with one's "success and enterprise" (by which I assume you mean the amount one has contributed to society, and not the trivial meaning of how much $$ one has accumulated)
--$180,000 in post-tax income (which by my calculations would put you somewhere around the top 1% of earners in the richest country in the world) would be merely "not bad"
--a system in which very hardworking people (doctors) have twice as much purchasing power as the average worker (those earning $60,000) is "punishing" the doctor.

Listen, I think doctors deserve to make a good living. I don't want to see average physician salaries (relative to costs of living) decline any further, and I wish students didn't have to go into such insane debt to pursue what I consider an extremely noble profession.

Still, I continue to be astounded by the number of people on SDN who seem committed to proving that physicians in the US are condemned to a mediocre quality of life. Not only is this a ridiculously warped view of reality, but it tends to rely on an annoying combination of self-congratulation ("oh my god it's so hard to get into medical school and so much work to become a doctor and i'm so so super smart, way smarter than anyone making $60K") and Ayn Rand bull**** ("if only The Government didn't punish me for my brilliance!").

 

[Morsetlis]

But the government does punish you for your brilliance. That's the whole point of a sliding tax scale...

 

[rama kandra]

how success and enterprise are punished by our corrupt ruling class

I was under the impression that the ruling class was quite content being the purveyors of their own success. It is in fact the lower class which condemns the accumulation of wealth. I don't know anyone in the ruling class (who I assume is the top 2% of earning workers/families in America) who punish themselves.

success and enterprise - your salary Does determine your success and enterprise. I hate to shatter the myth but someone who earns a good salary and has a important job, or provides entertainment or purpose has enterprise. I have no idea where this opinion comes from, that someone who is making lots of paper is somehow not contributing or deserves it. $$ matters, dont be under the impression that you can slide through any hoops just by 'returning value to society.'

Most physicians do not have a mediocre quality of life. I do find one fact kind of important which is, in the last five presidencies, their salary was equally on par with average physicians who earned 100k (along with the pres) and today the tables have turned, Barack Obama earns 500k for his service while doctors have remained around 130k on average. If you were to use that as a metric for inflation or price value of service, the presidency has grown 5x while doctors have not.

Sorry you think Ayn Rand is bull****. I don't feel that way, but to each his own, much like Rand would say.

 

[zinciest]

I was under the impression that the ruling class was quite content being the purveyors of their own success. It is in fact the lower class which condemns the accumulation of wealth. I don't know anyone in the ruling class (who I assume is the top 2% of earning workers/families in America) who punish themselves.

success and enterprise - your salary Does determine your success and enterprise. I hate to shatter the myth but someone who earns a good salary and has a important job, or provides entertainment or purpose has enterprise. I have no idea where this opinion comes from, that someone who is making lots of paper is somehow not contributing or deserves it. $$ matters, dont be under the impression that you can slide through any hoops just by 'returning value to society.'

Most physicians do not have a mediocre quality of life. I do find one fact kind of important which is, in the last five presidencies, their salary was equally on par with average physicians who earned 100k (along with the pres) and today the tables have turned, Barack Obama earns 500k for his service while doctors have remained around 130k on average. If you were to use that as a metric for inflation or price value of service, the presidency has grown 5x while doctors have not.

Sorry you think Ayn Rand is bull****. I don't feel that way, but to each his own, much like Rand would say.

The president's salary has been more or less static for 10 years. In the 1960s to 70s, the president earned 200K.

http://www.lib.umich.edu/node/11736/