Hi, I'm a Chiropractor :)

[Stim4me]

I don't know any chiro that would claim their education is equivalent.... except you.
Maybe at your next referral dinner you should pull this graph out and discuss it. Love to see how that effects your thriving practice... people are being too kind here.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[DrCommonSense]

LOL wait

HA HA HA HA HAH AHA HAHA HA HA

Wait

HA HA HAH AHAH AH AHA AHA HA

Ok end

 

[kelminak]

I appreciate the time you've put into this thread and it was pretty risky to come into what's going to be a hostile territory for you, but this chart is blatantly wrong and I hope you don't feel like you have the equivalent training as a physician in terms of the amount of time put in or clinical knowledge (yes, I read your initial post, but posting this chart sharply indicates otherwise).

Additionally, realize that you are coming into an area with highly trained professionals who highly despise your profession because while there may be people who can respect their limits like yourself, there are plenty more who don't and overstep their bounds incessantly. You might have had the intention of changing some minds regarding your profession, but would you even be open to changing your own?

You linked to a Pubmed article that articulates what pretty much everyone has said: manipulation seems to be effective on a small range of medical conditions, but there is a huge list of things that have been attempted to be treated by chiros that couldn't be proven:

"The evidence is inconclusive for cervical manipulation/mobilization alone for neck pain of any duration, and for manipulation/mobilization for mid back pain, sciatica, tension-type headache, coccydynia, temporomandibular joint disorders, fibromyalgia, premenstrual syndrome, and pneumonia in older adults. Spinal manipulation is not effective for asthma and dysmenorrhea when compared to sham manipulation, or for Stage 1 hypertension when added to an antihypertensive diet. In children, the evidence is inconclusive regarding the effectiveness for otitis media and enuresis, and it is not effective for infantile colic and asthma when compared to sham manipulation.Massage is effective in adults for chronic low back pain and chronic neck pain. The evidence is inconclusive for knee osteoarthritis, fibromyalgia, myofascial pain syndrome, migraine headache, and premenstrual syndrome. In children, the evidence is inconclusive for asthma and infantile colic."

If only a certain portion of your work is actually useful and the rest of it isn't, doesn't that erode the credibility of your profession? This is why one of the physicians here says he's willing to refer patients to a chiro strictly for back pain and nothing else as long as the chiro keeps his mouth shut regarding all other medicine. He's not doing it to be an dingus, he's saying this because he knows the limitations of where chiropractors can be effective and isn't interested in their non-expert opinion in other fields.

I don't see this thread going anywhere productive at this point, but thanks for your time anyway. It's at least an interesting insight into what chiropractors are thinking for those of us who aren't interested in it/are against it.

 

[Psai]

Did you know this graph (referring to the attachment above) is incredibly insulting and incorrect? It's one of the main reasons there are poor relations between most chiropractors and physicians. (This is coming from someone who is an avid supporter of your profession.)

I can't believe your resume. You've been in school since 1998 and you just finished? My head is spinning right now.

 

[lonelobo]

 

[ampaphb]

Terrifying overreach.

 

[lobelsteve]

Terrifying overreach.

Child endangerment by parents, assault by chiro.

 

[bedrock]

Child endangerment by parents, assault by chiro.

Agree. Chiropractors who manipulate infants should be arrested.

 

[pastafan]

Child endangerment by parents, assault by chiro.

Agree with the endangerment part. I saw a video once of a chiropractor "manipulating" an infant as preventive care. He held the child in his hands supine and basically tickled its back. Couldn't believe he was paid for this nonsense. Not assault, just a fleecing.

 

[painj]

Agree with the endangerment part. I saw a video once of a chiropractor "manipulating" an infant as preventive care. He held the child in his hands supine and basically tickled its back. Couldn't believe he was paid for this nonsense. Not assault, just a fleecing.

You all know I am not a physician-- but I read this forum regularly to gain appropriate information-and I stay out of every ones business and I certainly don't chime in where I shouldn't--but honestly--how is this not illegal!!! I am cringing and actually sickened thinking about a chiropractor "cracking" an infant or toddler! Does this happen often?

 

[hyperalgesia]

I saw this recently. It's completely horrifying.

 

[jonnylingo]

I saw this recently. It's completely horrifying.

I felt like throwing up watching this.

"Dr" Tim Bain says "Parents of a colicky baby will do anything to make it stop". I guess that included some quack cracking a newborn's spine in half.


This is child abuse. No way to defend this. My brother in law, (former) local Chiro, sent a flier in the newspaper marketing his treatment of otitis media, pancreatitis, reflux, among a myarid of other things with Chiropractic. Total BS.

What a loathsome profession. Stick to low back pain where you can at most show a little benefit. Oh, and stop fleecing patients with weekly adjustments ad infinitum.

 

[ampaphb]

But then how will they make their quota of 80 patients per day?

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[painj]

Not to date myself but out of four kids and two grandchildren that I have --3 of them were colicky and there is absolutely no possible scenario in which I would have brought them to a chiropractor for "fixing" that video has to be one of the most upsetting things I have ever seen.

 

[jesspt]

Thanks.
On the west coast you need a BA before applying to any DC school. on the east coast it's an AA

Tupac vs. Biggie

 

[jesspt]

Problem is the non-published cases. There are plenty of CVA after cervical HVLA, that don't get published. Personally saw two in residency.

I'm fine with chiropractic manipulation of thoracic and lumbar spine. I send some patients with pure axial T or L spine pain to chiropractors that I trust, ones that don't call themselves chiropractic physicians and don't tell patients they can cure visceral pathology with spinal manipulations.

I don't recommend cervical HVLA, and don't refer to chiro for this.

The fact that there is an association between HVLA and CVA and no good evidence that shows the superiority of HVLA over other more gentle techniques. If a clinician were going to treat neck pain with manual therapy, why would they choose an HVLA, particularly one directed at the upper cervical spine? This is where the one-trick chiro ponies run into trouble.

 

[DrCommonSense]

If I were a patient with neck or back pain, would I go to the doc who, on average, graducated witha GPA of 2-2.5? Or 3.5-4?

To all the MDs who struggle with Medicare, CMS, and insurance companies, understand that the vast majority of chiropractors focus on Comp and PI patients. While Medicare will pay Dr. DC-holla $45 per adjustment, PI cases will pay $200-250 for that same treatment. 400/wk is ~5min/pt over a 7hr day (with an hour for lunch)

Further, let's low-ball her patients population, and say it is 1/3 medicare ($45/pt), 1/3 insurance (~$75/pt), and 1/3 PI ($200/pt).

133 x 45 = $5,985. 133 x 75 = $9,975. 133 x 200 = $26,600.
Dr. DC holla grosses $46,560/week
Assume she has a 50% overhead, and takes two weeks vacation a year.
She nets $1,064,000 yearly.

Given that she probably sees more like 80% PI patients, that number is likely far higher

College GPA 2.5. Yearly net $1M. Not bad ...

Why use those useless methods though?

Dr. Chou out of Oregon has proven through extensive EBM peer reviewed studies that these techniques are the best for treating any kind of spinal disorder:

 

[neutro]

can we sue dr. chou for misinforming the public and influencing policy makers? and not knowing W-T-F he is doing?
The guy probably has never performed a useful injection in his life.
Not sure why someone who is not familiar with ALL aspects of pain management is allowed to even have a say in this matter.
I do them every day, and for a great majority of my patients they are an absolute life line.

Is there something we can do? sign a petition?

 

[DC-holla]

Firstly, I'd like to say that the term "doctor" is not solely reserved for medical physicians. A "doctor" is a person who has received a Doctorate degree, whether the degree be Ph.D, Sc.D, M.D., D.O, D.C, D.P.M, D.D.S., etc... Doctor means educator. Medicine, Osteopathy, Chiropractic, Podiatry, Pharmacy, Dentistry, Psychology (any many others) are all specialized/Terminal branches of education. Anyone with a doctorate degree is first and foremost an educator. They possess the knowledge to inform others in a competent fashion about their specific field.

Many people with doctorates (for the exception of those with research-based degrees) may choose to practice their specific field (practitioners). This is where the term doctor has been skewed. Doctors of Medicine, also termed medical physicians, are health-care professionals whose scope of practice is focused on the diagnosis and treatment of disease and injury, primarily through the use of drugs and/or surgery. This is what the general public thinks of when they hear/see of the word "doctor". Medical physicians are widely accepted as the only people to be correctly called "doctor". Obviously, this is a misnomer. For a long period of time, medical physicians were the only source of health-care treatment because at that time, there was not very much research done on human health. Dentists, who are Doctors of Dentistry, are doctors who focus on mouth and tooth health. They were not referred to as doctors, rather as dentists. This was not because they weren't themselves doctors (they of course were/are), but because it was just easier and more common to say dentist. Podiatrists, or Doctors of Podiatry, are health-care professionals who... (You get the picture). All health-care practitioners holding doctorates are REAL doctors. There is nothing fake about any of them, after all, how can there be? All of their degrees are from schools that are accredited by the department of education, aka, THE GOVERNMENT. All of them must pass state exams in order to gain licensure. The only legitimate argument about Chiropractors and Medical physicians is that neither are the other. Chiropractors never claimed to be medical physicians, nor have medical physicians claimed to be chiropractors.

Chiropractors purposely turned down the AMA's offer to become part of their association because they knew they were a separate identity. As far as saying Chiropractors are "quacks", that is a completely uneducated statement. Chiropractors are physicians who receive nearly identical education as medical physicians, the main difference being pharmacology and surgery. Chiropractors take the same amount of course hours in all of the same basic sciences (chiropractic students take more hours of anatomy than do medical students), and overall, more class time hours. Chiropractors have to take a four-part board exam in order to gain licensure... If you cannot see the progression of this by now... So to say Chiropractors aren't real doctors, that is completely untrue. To say that is to say Podiatrists aren't real doctors, Psychologists aren't real doctors, Dentists aren't real doctors, Pharmacists aren't real doctors, and so on... Clearly it isn't a true statement. Again, the only valid argument would be to say, "Chiropractors aren't real medical doctors", which is completely correct!! Chiropractors, nor any other doctor (besides medical of course) claim to be medical doctors. To do so would be ridiculous.

 

[DC-holla]

The fact that there is an association between HVLA and CVA and no good evidence that shows the superiority of HVLA over other more gentle techniques. If a clinician were going to treat neck pain with manual therapy, why would they choose an HVLA, particularly one directed at the upper cervical spine? This is where the one-trick chiro ponies run into trouble.

Not true, fine sir.
There are so many more therapies that I, and many other DC'S use.
Other techniques may be gentler than HVLA, but not always more effective.

 

[DC-holla]

Not to date myself but out of four kids and two grandchildren that I have --3 of them were colicky and there is absolutely no possible scenario in which I would have brought them to a chiropractor for "fixing" that video has to be one of the most upsetting things I have ever seen.

I agree. I can do nothing about a colicky infant. But if the day comes when such pt may present to me, i would do whatever I could to help with anything else they may have going on upon request. Why this infant is not at a ped, I am unsure.

 

[Stroganoff]

what's the big D?

I'll PM you a referral. I know a guy. He needs some HVLA on his broken pubic bone, but I won't tell you how to do your job if you don't tell me how to do mine.

 

[DC-holla]

Terrifying overreach.

True about bed wetting.
That's about it.

 

[neutro]

Firstly, I'd like to say that the term "doctor" is not solely reserved for medical physicians. A "doctor" is a person who has received a Doctorate degree, whether the degree be Ph.D, Sc.D, M.D., D.O, D.C, D.P.M, D.D.S., etc... Doctor means educator. Medicine, Osteopathy, Chiropractic, Podiatry, Pharmacy, Dentistry, Psychology (any many others) are all specialized/Terminal branches of education. Anyone with a doctorate degree is first and foremost an educator. They possess the knowledge to inform others in a competent fashion about their specific field.

Many people with doctorates (for the exception of those with research-based degrees) may choose to practice their specific field (practitioners). This is where the term doctor has been skewed. Doctors of Medicine, also termed medical physicians, are health-care professionals whose scope of practice is focused on the diagnosis and treatment of disease and injury, primarily through the use of drugs and/or surgery. This is what the general public thinks of when they hear/see of the word "doctor". Medical physicians are widely accepted as the only people to be correctly called "doctor". Obviously, this is a misnomer. For a long period of time, medical physicians were the only source of health-care treatment because at that time, there was not very much research done on human health. Dentists, who are Doctors of Dentistry, are doctors who focus on mouth and tooth health. They were not referred to as doctors, rather as dentists. This was not because they weren't themselves doctors (they of course were/are), but because it was just easier and more common to say dentist. Podiatrists, or Doctors of Podiatry, are health-care professionals who... (You get the picture). All health-care practitioners holding doctorates are REAL doctors. There is nothing fake about any of them, after all, how can there be? All of their degrees are from schools that are accredited by the department of education, aka, THE GOVERNMENT. All of them must pass state exams in order to gain licensure. The only legitimate argument about Chiropractors and Medical physicians is that neither are the other. Chiropractors never claimed to be medical physicians, nor have medical physicians claimed to be chiropractors.

Chiropractors purposely turned down the AMA's offer to become part of their association because they knew they were a separate identity. As far as saying Chiropractors are "quacks", that is a completely uneducated statement. Chiropractors are physicians who receive nearly identical education as medical physicians, the main difference being pharmacology and surgery. 1) Chiropractors take the same amount of course hours in all of the same basic sciences (chiropractic students take more hours of anatomy than do medical students), and overall, more class time hours. Chiropractors have to take a four-part board exam in order to gain licensure... If you cannot see the progression of this by now... So to say Chiropractors aren't real doctors, that is completely untrue. 2) To say that is to say Podiatrists aren't real doctors, Psychologists aren't real doctors, Dentists aren't real doctors, Pharmacists aren't real doctors, and so on... Clearly it isn't a true statement. Again, the only valid argument would be to say, "3) Chiropractors aren't real medical doctors", which is completely correct!! Chiropractors, nor any other doctor (besides medical of course) claim to be medical doctors. To do so would be ridiculous.

1) tsk tsk, that is embarrassing. You do not know what you're talking about and have a very rudimentary and wrong understanding of our profession. You are dangerous and do not know your limits.
2) They aren't. The insistence to introduce themselves as a "doctor" or "dentist physician (LOL)" or "podiatric physician" is simply not present among those professionals.
3) Yes, they aren't. By calling yourself a doctor, you are misleading the public and that is dangerous. The public is already confused with the slew of MAs, nurses NPs, PAs, CRNP, LNP, CRNAs, etc. Some of these are already very unqualified and dangerous esp. in chronic pain setting (some are good no doubt).
We don't need to add more incompetent professionals to this mix.

Look, I am sorry that you spent tens (maybe hundreds of thousands of dollars) on your chiropractic degree. But it does not mean that you try to justify it on SDN community where you will have no problem being corrected by practicing physicians - we are fully aware of your profession and its harms, so you do not need to "educate" us.
All of the benefits that are evidence based are now within the scope of physical therapists and that is the accepted physical modality of treatment for the patient in pain along with exercise and weight management. That is who we refer the patients to. I have yet to refer a patient to chiro - infact I advise against it, esp. for neck pain. As an anesthesiologist, who was taught to handle the neck, and airway with extreme care, and avoid any excessive and sudden movements I am appalled to see these videos of neck manipulation.
And chronic pain management is essentially 5 modalities 1) Interventional. 2) Medications. 3) Physical (PT/ Exercise, weight management). 4. Complementary (Yoga, Accupuncture, Meditation, Integrative medicine). 5. Psychological (anxiety, depression and mood management, setting SMART goals, and Cognitive behavioral therapy etc).
This is a very basic understanding of pain management, and I can go on and on, but chiropractic is NOT part of this multi-disciplinary pain management treatment model for any pain syndrome. You are treating low back pain, but can you diagnose whether there is catastrophizing, or cognotive dysfunction? Are you able to think critically or just look at X-ray and "adjust"? FYI - radiological images have an extremely poor correlation with actual symptoms which are elicited by History and Physical exam. Have you examined thousands of patients in your training?
If chiropractic was an accepted discipline in medicine, you would see hospital based chiropractors. I do not believe that they exist.

I appreciate the enthusiasm, but I request that you stop now.
It was nice to meet you.

 

[DC-holla]

1) tsk tsk, that is embarrassing. You do not know what you're talking about and have a very rudimentary and wrong understanding of our profession. You are dangerous and do not know your limits.
2) They aren't. The insistence to introduce themselves as a "doctor" or "dentist physician (LOL)" or "podiatric physician" is simply not present among those professionals.
3) Yes, they aren't. By calling yourself a doctor, you are misleading the public and that is dangerous. The public is already confused with the slew of MAs, nurses NPs, PAs, CRNP, LNP, CRNAs, etc. Some of these are already very unqualified and dangerous esp. in chronic pain setting (some are good no doubt).
We don't need to add more incompetent professionals to this mix.

Look, I am sorry that you spent tens (maybe hundreds of thousands of dollars) on your chiropractic degree. But it does not mean that you try to justify it on SDN community where you will have no problem being corrected by practicing physicians - we are fully aware of your profession and its harms, so you do not need to "educate" us.
All of the benefits that are evidence based are now within the scope of physical therapists and that is the accepted physical modality of treatment for the patient in pain along with exercise and weight management. That is who we refer the patients to. I have yet to refer a patient to chiro - infact I advise against it, esp. for neck pain. As an anesthesiologist, who was taught to handle the neck, and airway with extreme care, and avoid any excessive and sudden movements I am appalled to see these videos of neck manipulation.
And chronic pain management is essentially 5 modalities 1) Interventional. 2) Medications. 3) Physical (PT/ Exercise, weight management). 4. Complementary (Yoga, Accupuncture, Meditation, Integrative medicine). 5. Psychological (anxiety, depression and mood management, setting SMART goals, and Cognitive behavioral therapy etc).
This is a very basic understanding of pain management, and I can go on and on, but chiropractic is NOT part of this multi-disciplinary pain management treatment model for any pain syndrome. You are treating low back pain, but can you diagnose whether there is catastrophizing, or cognotive dysfunction? Are you able to think critically or just look at X-ray and "adjust"? FYI - radiological images have an extremely poor correlation with actual symptoms which are elicited by History and Physical exam. Have you examined thousands of patients in your training?
If chiropractic was an accepted discipline in medicine, you would see hospital based chiropractors. I do not believe that they exist.

I appreciate the enthusiasm, but I request that you stop now.
It was nice to meet you.

I fully appreciate and understand what you are saying, however I think that your emotions got the better of you after reading my post, which as I stated earlier was to clarify, as well as ask to be educated. That applied good and we'll for a few docs who replied.

I am not sure if you are a student or practicing physician but perhaps a tempered approach to discussing such issues may serve you better in future interactions with others.

 

[jesspt]

Not true, fine sir.
There are so many more therapies that I, and many other DC'S use.
Other techniques may be gentler than HVLA, but not always more effective.

Data please.

 

[ampaphb]

Firstly, I'd like to say that the term "doctor" is not solely reserved for medical physicians. A "doctor" is a person who has received a Doctorate degree, whether the degree be Ph.D, Sc.D, M.D., D.O, D.C, D.P.M, D.D.S., etc... Doctor means educator. Medicine, Osteopathy, Chiropractic, Podiatry, Pharmacy, Dentistry, Psychology (any many others) are all specialized/Terminal branches of education. Anyone with a doctorate degree is first and foremost an educator. They possess the knowledge to inform others in a competent fashion about their specific field.

Many people with doctorates (for the exception of those with research-based degrees) may choose to practice their specific field (practitioners). This is where the term doctor has been skewed. Doctors of Medicine, also termed medical physicians, are health-care professionals whose scope of practice is focused on the diagnosis and treatment of disease and injury, primarily through the use of drugs and/or surgery. This is what the general public thinks of when they hear/see of the word "doctor". Medical physicians are widely accepted as the only people to be correctly called "doctor". Obviously, this is a misnomer. For a long period of time, medical physicians were the only source of health-care treatment because at that time, there was not very much research done on human health. Dentists, who are Doctors of Dentistry, are doctors who focus on mouth and tooth health. They were not referred to as doctors, rather as dentists. This was not because they weren't themselves doctors (they of course were/are), but because it was just easier and more common to say dentist. Podiatrists, or Doctors of Podiatry, are health-care professionals who... (You get the picture). All health-care practitioners holding doctorates are REAL doctors. There is nothing fake about any of them, after all, how can there be? All of their degrees are from schools that are accredited by the department of education, aka, THE GOVERNMENT. All of them must pass state exams in order to gain licensure. The only legitimate argument about Chiropractors and Medical physicians is that neither are the other. Chiropractors never claimed to be medical physicians, nor have medical physicians claimed to be chiropractors.

Chiropractors purposely turned down the AMA's offer to become part of their association because they knew they were a separate identity. As far as saying Chiropractors are "quacks", that is a completely uneducated statement. Chiropractors are physicians who receive nearly identical education as medical physicians, the main difference being pharmacology and surgery. Chiropractors take the same amount of course hours in all of the same basic sciences (chiropractic students take more hours of anatomy than do medical students), and overall, more class time hours. Chiropractors have to take a four-part board exam in order to gain licensure... If you cannot see the progression of this by now... So to say Chiropractors aren't real doctors, that is completely untrue. To say that is to say Podiatrists aren't real doctors, Psychologists aren't real doctors, Dentists aren't real doctors, Pharmacists aren't real doctors, and so on... Clearly it isn't a true statement. Again, the only valid argument would be to say, "Chiropractors aren't real medical doctors", which is completely correct!! Chiropractors, nor any other doctor (besides medical of course) claim to be medical doctors. To do so would be ridiculous.

That was an impressive misdirect. The objection was to the use of the word "physician", not "doctor" ( which I find equally offensive, but as you say, has been co-opted by members of fields even less qualified than chiropractors)

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[ampaphb]

True about bed wetting.
That's about it.

I'm confused. Do you feel chiropractic has something to offer patients who wet the bed? Or is able to address asthma, allergies, colic, etc?

 

[Mad Jack]

Why use those useless methods though?

Dr. Chou out of Oregon has proven through extensive EBM peer reviewed studies that these techniques are the best for treating any kind of spinal disorder:

RIP half those patients

 

[ampaphb]

Data please.

Oh come on. She has no data. Same way she can't possibly defend her <3 second exam, or the tests she performs (x-rays with poor inter observer reproducibility, or those with zero construct validity like surface emg, thermography)

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[Mad Jack]

Firstly, I'd like to say that the term "doctor" is not solely reserved for medical physicians. A "doctor" is a person who has received a Doctorate degree, whether the degree be Ph.D, Sc.D, M.D., D.O, D.C, D.P.M, D.D.S., etc... Doctor means educator. Medicine, Osteopathy, Chiropractic, Podiatry, Pharmacy, Dentistry, Psychology (any many others) are all specialized/Terminal branches of education. Anyone with a doctorate degree is first and foremost an educator. They possess the knowledge to inform others in a competent fashion about their specific field.

Many people with doctorates (for the exception of those with research-based degrees) may choose to practice their specific field (practitioners). This is where the term doctor has been skewed. Doctors of Medicine, also termed medical physicians, are health-care professionals whose scope of practice is focused on the diagnosis and treatment of disease and injury, primarily through the use of drugs and/or surgery. This is what the general public thinks of when they hear/see of the word "doctor". Medical physicians are widely accepted as the only people to be correctly called "doctor". Obviously, this is a misnomer. For a long period of time, medical physicians were the only source of health-care treatment because at that time, there was not very much research done on human health. Dentists, who are Doctors of Dentistry, are doctors who focus on mouth and tooth health. They were not referred to as doctors, rather as dentists. This was not because they weren't themselves doctors (they of course were/are), but because it was just easier and more common to say dentist. Podiatrists, or Doctors of Podiatry, are health-care professionals who... (You get the picture). All health-care practitioners holding doctorates are REAL doctors. There is nothing fake about any of them, after all, how can there be? All of their degrees are from schools that are accredited by the department of education, aka, THE GOVERNMENT. All of them must pass state exams in order to gain licensure. The only legitimate argument about Chiropractors and Medical physicians is that neither are the other. Chiropractors never claimed to be medical physicians, nor have medical physicians claimed to be chiropractors.

Chiropractors purposely turned down the AMA's offer to become part of their association because they knew they were a separate identity. As far as saying Chiropractors are "quacks", that is a completely uneducated statement. Chiropractors are physicians who receive nearly identical education as medical physicians, the main difference being pharmacology and surgery. Chiropractors take the same amount of course hours in all of the same basic sciences (chiropractic students take more hours of anatomy than do medical students), and overall, more class time hours. Chiropractors have to take a four-part board exam in order to gain licensure... If you cannot see the progression of this by now... So to say Chiropractors aren't real doctors, that is completely untrue. To say that is to say Podiatrists aren't real doctors, Psychologists aren't real doctors, Dentists aren't real doctors, Pharmacists aren't real doctors, and so on... Clearly it isn't a true statement. Again, the only valid argument would be to say, "Chiropractors aren't real medical doctors", which is completely correct!! Chiropractors, nor any other doctor (besides medical of course) claim to be medical doctors. To do so would be ridiculous.

Feel free to come to my state and call yourself a physician, you'll be in prison within a week. You can call yourself a doctor all you like, but physician is a protected title here.

 

[Mad Jack]

I fully appreciate and understand what you are saying, however I think that your emotions got the better of you after reading my post, which as I stated earlier was to clarify, as well as ask to be educated. That applied good and we'll for a few docs who replied.

I am not sure if you are a student or practicing physician but perhaps a tempered approach to discussing such issues may serve you better in future interactions with others.

He offered a very measured, clear response to you. It was hardly some emotionally charged retort. I've known a few chiropractors-turned-physicians, all of which stated their chiropractic education was extremely lacking when compared with their medical education, and that it was bloated and warped by pseudoscience. Feel free to go to medical school if you want to learn a robust skillset and a more solid foundation of knowledge with which to better serve your patients- along the way you might realize just how little you knew all along.

 

[ampaphb]

Chiropractors purposely turned down the AMA's offer to become part of their association because they knew they were a separate identity.

You are delusional. This is an outright lie. The AMA never made any such offer.



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[Mad Jack]

You are delusional. This is an outright lie. The AMA never made any such offer.



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Yeah, the AMA basically was out to systematically destroy the chiropractic profession: http://journalofethics.ama-assn.org/2011/06/mhst1-1106.html

 

[epidural man]

DC_ Jolla,

I think you have a lot you could offer the medical profession and let me tell you why.

You said Doctor's don't listen to their patients - with this I agree.

I think the medical world is broken - totally stuck in a rut of reductionism - thinking that if only we can find that receptor that does this one thing, or a unique drug that will create this whirlwind response - things will be better - but it is the wrong path.

Much of chronic pain, and a lot of chronic disease - could be improved, maybe even completely fixed - with improved diet and sustained aerobic exercise, good sleep hygiene, stress management, increased spirituality, and more joy in people's lives.

But here is the problem. Most pain physicians (of course none of the ones on this board) are so very proud of how many patients they can see in a single day. ("I'm able to see at least 30 patients in my day!""Oh yeah, I can do 40 procedures a day!") - and they act like this makes them a phenomenal physician - as if learning to quickly get an ON PHOS picture and driving it to the foramen in less than 3 minutes is an amazing accomplishment.

But in my mind, a good pain physician recognizes that a lot of chronic pain isn't a nociception issue - it's a pain inhibition issue - and this is rarely solved with a needle. So how to you solve this? You talk to the patient about their imaging, that even though they have problems, that isn't the issue. This takes time to explain. You also need to explain to them why opioids are harmful, why microglia get activated with continued opioid use, that it doesn't help with chronic pain. You then need to talk to them about sustained aerobic exercise - that at least 5 times a week, they need to do SOMETHING that sustains HR to 60-80% max. This takes time to work through the kinesiophobia that all pain patients develop. You then need to discuss stress management, and all the intricacies of this, and sleep hygiene. Then you need to talk to them about how finding joy, and bringing spirituality back to their life is so very important. Then, to bring it home, you have to discuss diet - how to decrease the omega-6/omega-3 ratio, and how to increase nutrients and avoid inflammatory foods. "If it comes from a plant - eat it. If it is made in a plant, leave it." But talking to them about this of course isn't enough. You need to provide them with reading material resources, youtube videos, etc.

Can this all be done in 6 minutes? Absolutely not.

So...what can you do? You say Chiro's have a whole-body mind set. Great. Talk to your patients about all this. Teach them these things. You can have a profound effect on patient's life if you do. That should be your purpose and goal - because physicians won't be doing it (sad...I know).

However, the moment you start to sell them supplements, sell them easy fix solutions like TX9000 treatments (is it TX9000? you know...that silly machine that stretches the spine), you are part of the problem.

Be wise. Don't be part of the problem. You have unique position to be part of the solution.

By way of example, I had a patient the other day who I did maybe just a 1/3 of the things I mentioned should be done above...and I did it out of annoyance because she was so scared to move - so bent out of me "fixing" her problem by cutting nerves. I spent 15-20 minutes talking to her about how she needs to MOVE. She said she couldn't do exercise for more than 2 minutes because she gets winded. I explained that it would take time. I explained there was no nerve that could be cut that would fix this. I gave her some youtube resources and amazon books. She was thrilled and overjoyed. She said I was the 17th doctor she had seen and I was the first one to even say any of this. Maybe that wasn't true (I hope not...) but she was pleased enough to write a letter to the hospital singing my praises. I don't say this to pat my back - because I really did very little - but to say how little is being done to help these patients. It's sad really...but maybe you can be that person. Good luck.

 

[Ligament]

Firstly, I'd like to say that the term "doctor" is not solely reserved for medical physicians. A "doctor" is a person who has received a Doctorate degree, whether the degree be Ph.D, Sc.D, M.D., D.O, D.C, D.P.M, D.D.S., etc... Doctor means educator. Medicine, Osteopathy, Chiropractic, Podiatry, Pharmacy, Dentistry, Psychology (any many others) are all specialized/Terminal branches of education. Anyone with a doctorate degree is first and foremost an educator. They possess the knowledge to inform others in a competent fashion about their specific field.

Many people with doctorates (for the exception of those with research-based degrees) may choose to practice their specific field (practitioners). This is where the term doctor has been skewed. Doctors of Medicine, also termed medical physicians, are health-care professionals whose scope of practice is focused on the diagnosis and treatment of disease and injury, primarily through the use of drugs and/or surgery. This is what the general public thinks of when they hear/see of the word "doctor". Medical physicians are widely accepted as the only people to be correctly called "doctor". Obviously, this is a misnomer. For a long period of time, medical physicians were the only source of health-care treatment because at that time, there was not very much research done on human health. Dentists, who are Doctors of Dentistry, are doctors who focus on mouth and tooth health. They were not referred to as doctors, rather as dentists. This was not because they weren't themselves doctors (they of course were/are), but because it was just easier and more common to say dentist. Podiatrists, or Doctors of Podiatry, are health-care professionals who... (You get the picture). All health-care practitioners holding doctorates are REAL doctors. There is nothing fake about any of them, after all, how can there be? All of their degrees are from schools that are accredited by the department of education, aka, THE GOVERNMENT. All of them must pass state exams in order to gain licensure. The only legitimate argument about Chiropractors and Medical physicians is that neither are the other. Chiropractors never claimed to be medical physicians, nor have medical physicians claimed to be chiropractors.

Chiropractors purposely turned down the AMA's offer to become part of their association because they knew they were a separate identity. As far as saying Chiropractors are "quacks", that is a completely uneducated statement. Chiropractors are physicians who receive nearly identical education as medical physicians, the main difference being pharmacology and surgery. Chiropractors take the same amount of course hours in all of the same basic sciences (chiropractic students take more hours of anatomy than do medical students), and overall, more class time hours. Chiropractors have to take a four-part board exam in order to gain licensure... If you cannot see the progression of this by now... So to say Chiropractors aren't real doctors, that is completely untrue. To say that is to say Podiatrists aren't real doctors, Psychologists aren't real doctors, Dentists aren't real doctors, Pharmacists aren't real doctors, and so on... Clearly it isn't a true statement. Again, the only valid argument would be to say, "Chiropractors aren't real medical doctors", which is completely correct!! Chiropractors, nor any other doctor (besides medical of course) claim to be medical doctors. To do so would be ridiculous.

I support chiropractic for spinal and some peripheral joint manipulation. However, your argument about equivalent education is insane. There is also a small difference of internship, residency, and fellowship training. ALL of us on this forum had 4 years of undergrad, 4 years of medical school, 1 year of internship, at least 3 years of residency, and many of us had a least 1 year of fellowship training beyond that. This is training in major hospitals with experience with very serious and varied pathology of all sorts, the stuff you will never, ever see in your chiropractic clinics. Its a minimum of 12-13 years of education. Our internship/residency/fellowship training is many tens of thousands of hours.

The main difference is not about pharmacology and surgery. It is about exposure to pathology and patients and length of training.

 

[deleted480308]

Before this thread I had been open to potentially sending the occassional back pain patient to carefully selected chiros. OP, has convinced me otherwise and no chiro will ever get a patient referral from me

 

[freddydpt]

Here is what disturbs me the most. If you Google chiropractic vs. medical education, you see charts and articles written that favor chiropractic. All of this false information about medical training is being propagated through their sites. No wonder chiropractors come out of training thinking they have superior training to medical physicians. They are recruited that way, false facts reinforced during training and then market that way for themselves.

I contacted a blogger friend of mine to consider writing a non-biased article on the matter.

 

[clubdeac]

DC_ Jolla,

I think you have a lot you could offer the medical profession and let me tell you why.

You said Doctor's don't listen to their patients - with this I agree.

I think the medical world is broken - totally stuck in a rut of reductionism - thinking that if only we can find that receptor that does this one thing, or a unique drug that will create this whirlwind response - things will be better - but it is the wrong path.

Much of chronic pain, and a lot of chronic disease - could be improved, maybe even completely fixed - with improved diet and sustained aerobic exercise, good sleep hygiene, stress management, increased spirituality, and more joy in people's lives.

But here is the problem. Most pain physicians (of course none of the ones on this board) are so very proud of how many patients they can see in a single day. ("I'm able to see at least 30 patients in my day!""Oh yeah, I can do 40 procedures a day!") - and they act like this makes them a phenomenal physician - as if learning to quickly get an ON PHOS picture and driving it to the foramen in less than 3 minutes is an amazing accomplishment.

But in my mind, a good pain physician recognizes that a lot of chronic pain isn't a nociception issue - it's a pain inhibition issue - and this is rarely solved with a needle. So how to you solve this? You talk to the patient about their imaging, that even though they have problems, that isn't the issue. This takes time to explain. You also need to explain to them why opioids are harmful, why microglia get activated with continued opioid use, that it doesn't help with chronic pain. You then need to talk to them about sustained aerobic exercise - that at least 5 times a week, they need to do SOMETHING that sustains HR to 60-80% max. This takes time to work through the kinesiophobia that all pain patients develop. You then need to discuss stress management, and all the intricacies of this, and sleep hygiene. Then you need to talk to them about how finding joy, and bringing spirituality back to their life is so very important. Then, to bring it home, you have to discuss diet - how to decrease the omega-6/omega-3 ratio, and how to increase nutrients and avoid inflammatory foods. "If it comes from a plant - eat it. If it is made in a plant, leave it." But talking to them about this of course isn't enough. You need to provide them with reading material resources, youtube videos, etc.

Can this all be done in 6 minutes? Absolutely not.

So...what can you do? You say Chiro's have a whole-body mind set. Great. Talk to your patients about all this. Teach them these things. You can have a profound effect on patient's life if you do. That should be your purpose and goal - because physicians won't be doing it (sad...I know).

However, the moment you start to sell them supplements, sell them easy fix solutions like TX9000 treatments (is it TX9000? you know...that silly machine that stretches the spine), you are part of the problem.

Be wise. Don't be part of the problem. You have unique position to be part of the solution.

By way of example, I had a patient the other day who I did maybe just a 1/3 of the things I mentioned should be done above...and I did it out of annoyance because she was so scared to move - so bent out of me "fixing" her problem by cutting nerves. I spent 15-20 minutes talking to her about how she needs to MOVE. She said she couldn't do exercise for more than 2 minutes because she gets winded. I explained that it would take time. I explained there was no nerve that could be cut that would fix this. I gave her some youtube resources and amazon books. She was thrilled and overjoyed. She said I was the 17th doctor she had seen and I was the first one to even say any of this. Maybe that wasn't true (I hope not...) but she was pleased enough to write a letter to the hospital singing my praises. I don't say this to pat my back - because I really did very little - but to say how little is being done to help these patients. It's sad really...but maybe you can be that person. Good luck.

What youtube resources and amazon books did you give her? Care to share your resources epidural

 

[DC-holla]

DC_ Jolla,

I think you have a lot you could offer the medical profession and let me tell you why.

You said Doctor's don't listen to their patients - with this I agree.

I think the medical world is broken - totally stuck in a rut of reductionism - thinking that if only we can find that receptor that does this one thing, or a unique drug that will create this whirlwind response - things will be better - but it is the wrong path.

Much of chronic pain, and a lot of chronic disease - could be improved, maybe even completely fixed - with improved diet and sustained aerobic exercise, good sleep hygiene, stress management, increased spirituality, and more joy in people's lives.

But here is the problem. Most pain physicians (of course none of the ones on this board) are so very proud of how many patients they can see in a single day. ("I'm able to see at least 30 patients in my day!""Oh yeah, I can do 40 procedures a day!") - and they act like this makes them a phenomenal physician - as if learning to quickly get an ON PHOS picture and driving it to the foramen in less than 3 minutes is an amazing accomplishment.

But in my mind, a good pain physician recognizes that a lot of chronic pain isn't a nociception issue - it's a pain inhibition issue - and this is rarely solved with a needle. So how to you solve this? You talk to the patient about their imaging, that even though they have problems, that isn't the issue. This takes time to explain. You also need to explain to them why opioids are harmful, why microglia get activated with continued opioid use, that it doesn't help with chronic pain. You then need to talk to them about sustained aerobic exercise - that at least 5 times a week, they need to do SOMETHING that sustains HR to 60-80% max. This takes time to work through the kinesiophobia that all pain patients develop. You then need to discuss stress management, and all the intricacies of this, and sleep hygiene. Then you need to talk to them about how finding joy, and bringing spirituality back to their life is so very important. Then, to bring it home, you have to discuss diet - how to decrease the omega-6/omega-3 ratio, and how to increase nutrients and avoid inflammatory foods. "If it comes from a plant - eat it. If it is made in a plant, leave it." But talking to them about this of course isn't enough. You need to provide them with reading material resources, youtube videos, etc.

Can this all be done in 6 minutes? Absolutely not.

So...what can you do? You say Chiro's have a whole-body mind set. Great. Talk to your patients about all this. Teach them these things. You can have a profound effect on patient's life if you do. That should be your purpose and goal - because physicians won't be doing it (sad...I know).

However, the moment you start to sell them supplements, sell them easy fix solutions like TX9000 treatments (is it TX9000? you know...that silly machine that stretches the spine), you are part of the problem.

Be wise. Don't be part of the problem. You have unique position to be part of the solution.

By way of example, I had a patient the other day who I did maybe just a 1/3 of the things I mentioned should be done above...and I did it out of annoyance because she was so scared to move - so bent out of me "fixing" her problem by cutting nerves. I spent 15-20 minutes talking to her about how she needs to MOVE. She said she couldn't do exercise for more than 2 minutes because she gets winded. I explained that it would take time. I explained there was no nerve that could be cut that would fix this. I gave her some youtube resources and amazon books. She was thrilled and overjoyed. She said I was the 17th doctor she had seen and I was the first one to even say any of this. Maybe that wasn't true (I hope not...) but she was pleased enough to write a letter to the hospital singing my praises. I don't say this to pat my back - because I really did very little - but to say how little is being done to help these patients. It's sad really...but maybe you can be that person. Good luck.

Love your motto
"If it comes from a plant - eat it. If it is made in a plant, leave it." props to you.

As I stated before, my dad is a DO. He loves what he does, he started out with primary care 30 years ago, then moved into pain management. Today, most of his practice is suboxone/subutex. Over the years, he has kept about 20 faithful pain management folks (faithful meaning commited. Pass UAs, make appointments on time, no pharmacy trouble, taking suggestions, ect.) he always told me that you need to offer the patient more than just an rx everytime. Along your same,"spiritual/wellness/motivation to change care" that you describe in the above. You sound a lot like him and he is someone I admire very much, not because we're related, but because of the person he is in all aspects and situations of life. A calm, compassionate man. Thumbs up to you.

I did consider following in his foot steps when I was in HS. My sister is a Seahawks cheerleader and has been for 4 years now and before that, cheered for 2 seasons my senior year. I had met quiet a few of the Chiropractors and Physical Therapists who work for the NFL. I knew I wanted to work with athletes. I love sports rehab because those are the type of patients I want to be working daily, as well as bicyclists, runners and other patients who have goals that we can accomplish together. Example: The baseball pitcher with a sloppy shoulder who is gearing up for spring training. The ones who lead an active, goal oriented life style and their main goal is to be at their optimal performance at all times. Injuries of course happen and that's where I step in. That's why I don't buy into Chiropractors claiming to treat all these different diseases and conditions. More so, I was never taught this and I graduated earlier this year... I am then left to play clean up for those DC'S who do believe they are primary care providers, if it gets brought up. I stick to what I know, what works for said pt and get them back on the field, bicycle or court as quickly as possible. I like them go know I am available for them for wellness appointments too, monthly. I liked that being a DC allowed me so many different options. I also would love to take over for the local hockey team when their chiro retires. Growing up, I truly thought I would go to med school because I wanted to do "what my daddy did."

Although I appreciate the compliment, the truth is, I don't want to work with sick people! I wouldn't be much good at being an MD or DO n my opinion.... it would require me to have to make a lot of compromise. I know that sounds like $hit, but it's true- another reason why i respect what my dad and most MDs/DOs do. They take the good with the bad. I didn't want to deal with the bad. So if a patient isn't willing to do whatever it takes to play a role in their physical recovery, I have nothing to offer them. I don't want to have to see only 4 patients a week who are commited to getting well, and the rest completely dependent upon medications and in no hurry to change their lifestyle. I'm not sorry for this mentality because we all pick and chose who we do and do not work with (to some degree). If I were of the medical community, I simply wouldn't be fulfilled. It's a tough, demanding job and I don't want to ever have a day where I do not enjoy what I do. I am thankful I can decide this. I cannot imagine doing something like Emerg med, urgent care or community health. That is a huge role that needs to be left for someone who is well rounded- I am not. I am very narrow minded when it comes to what I want to be doing for the rest of my life. So while all of you tell me I wasted all this money on school or I'm insane as someone said somewhere on here, I just simply think about all the high school students who I have helped, the marathon runner with a bad knee who is pushing 60 and just finished his first 5k in more than 4 years with no knee pain, and the MVA pt who tells me that not only is her back pain better, but she notices that she is sitting up and standing taller , her headaches are gone and she is not carrying around the mini travel size bottles of tylenol in her purse anymore..... her liver gets to stay put! (and thank God because she was up to almost 4000mg a day with no knowledge on the effects of excessive APAP use.) My point is, I feel I have helped and that is what I want to be doing; helping someone who wants to help themselves. If they cannot help themselves due to disability, terminal illness or hospice type situations, I would suggest they see a medical doctor in that I would not be of much help! They need a higher level of care than I can offer, and I fully support them! I love what I do and am going to continue to do it for many years hopefully

 

[DC-holla]

Aw

It always intrigues me when children of intelligent people get so damn loopy. Very intriguing. Though, if papa holla is one of the old guard DOs it shouldn't really be a surprise.

After wasting 20 minutes of my morning I was reminded of a saying my old man use to tell me: "Never argue with stupid people. They will bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience." (Mark Twain)

This special snowflake, everyone is a doctor no matter what education they have, generation is truly something to behold. I truly pity anyone who comes to you who has a true medical condition that needs actual medical care. You and your ilk should be in prison for leading these people astray: disgusting.

Aww thanks for contributing. feel better now? anything else that hasn't already been commented that you'd like to add?

 

[jesspt]

DC_ Jolla,

I think you have a lot you could offer the medical profession and let me tell you why.

You said Doctor's don't listen to their patients - with this I agree.

I think the medical world is broken - totally stuck in a rut of reductionism - thinking that if only we can find that receptor that does this one thing, or a unique drug that will create this whirlwind response - things will be better - but it is the wrong path.

Much of chronic pain, and a lot of chronic disease - could be improved, maybe even completely fixed - with improved diet and sustained aerobic exercise, good sleep hygiene, stress management, increased spirituality, and more joy in people's lives.

But here is the problem. Most pain physicians (of course none of the ones on this board) are so very proud of how many patients they can see in a single day. ("I'm able to see at least 30 patients in my day!""Oh yeah, I can do 40 procedures a day!") - and they act like this makes them a phenomenal physician - as if learning to quickly get an ON PHOS picture and driving it to the foramen in less than 3 minutes is an amazing accomplishment.

But in my mind, a good pain physician recognizes that a lot of chronic pain isn't a nociception issue - it's a pain inhibition issue - and this is rarely solved with a needle. So how to you solve this? You talk to the patient about their imaging, that even though they have problems, that isn't the issue. This takes time to explain. You also need to explain to them why opioids are harmful, why microglia get activated with continued opioid use, that it doesn't help with chronic pain. You then need to talk to them about sustained aerobic exercise - that at least 5 times a week, they need to do SOMETHING that sustains HR to 60-80% max. This takes time to work through the kinesiophobia that all pain patients develop. You then need to discuss stress management, and all the intricacies of this, and sleep hygiene. Then you need to talk to them about how finding joy, and bringing spirituality back to their life is so very important. Then, to bring it home, you have to discuss diet - how to decrease the omega-6/omega-3 ratio, and how to increase nutrients and avoid inflammatory foods. "If it comes from a plant - eat it. If it is made in a plant, leave it." But talking to them about this of course isn't enough. You need to provide them with reading material resources, youtube videos, etc.

Can this all be done in 6 minutes? Absolutely not.

So...what can you do? You say Chiro's have a whole-body mind set. Great. Talk to your patients about all this. Teach them these things. You can have a profound effect on patient's life if you do. That should be your purpose and goal - because physicians won't be doing it (sad...I know).

However, the moment you start to sell them supplements, sell them easy fix solutions like TX9000 treatments (is it TX9000? you know...that silly machine that stretches the spine), you are part of the problem.

Be wise. Don't be part of the problem. You have unique position to be part of the solution.

By way of example, I had a patient the other day who I did maybe just a 1/3 of the things I mentioned should be done above...and I did it out of annoyance because she was so scared to move - so bent out of me "fixing" her problem by cutting nerves. I spent 15-20 minutes talking to her about how she needs to MOVE. She said she couldn't do exercise for more than 2 minutes because she gets winded. I explained that it would take time. I explained there was no nerve that could be cut that would fix this. I gave her some youtube resources and amazon books. She was thrilled and overjoyed. She said I was the 17th doctor she had seen and I was the first one to even say any of this. Maybe that wasn't true (I hope not...) but she was pleased enough to write a letter to the hospital singing my praises. I don't say this to pat my back - because I really did very little - but to say how little is being done to help these patients. It's sad really...but maybe you can be that person. Good luck.

You just described evidence based PT interventions, for the most part, although the nutrition/diet aspect falls outside of PT scope.

I'm betting some of the Youtube and Amazon resources were produced by physical therapists.

 

[epidural man]

What youtube resources and amazon books did you give her? Care to share your resources epidural

Sure!

I start with this -

YouTube search terms:
Lorimer Mosely TED Talk "Why things hurt" - awesome short talk
Low Back Pain, docmikeevans
joint pain education project understanding pain

I also like them to watch that cheesy video about yoga - just to float the idea about doing yoga and how it can make a big difference.
Authur's inspiration never give up.

Google search term
Straight shot health understand your pain

Amazon books:
Healing Back Pain Naturally - by Art Brownstein
Full Catastrophe Living by Jon Kabat-Zinn

If the are really motivated - here is a paid resource that has wonderful information and great videos.
Google search term: 30 days to a pain-free back gumroad

 

[clubdeac]

Sure!

I start with this -

YouTube search terms:
Lorimer Mosely TED Talk "Why things hurt" - awesome short talk
Low Back Pain, docmikeevans
joint pain education project understanding pain

I also like them to watch that cheesy video about yoga - just to float the idea about doing yoga and how it can make a big difference.
Authur's inspiration never give up.

Google search term
Straight shot health understand your pain

Amazon books:
Healing Back Pain Naturally - by Art Brownstein
Full Catastrophe Living by Jon Kabat-Zinn

If the are really motivated - here is a paid resource that has wonderful information and great videos.
Google search term: 30 days to a pain-free back gumroad

Thanks! I appreciate it!