Hi, I'm a Chiropractor :)

[DC-holla]

It's clear to me after reading so many of the posts in this forum of Pain Medicine that most MD'S still think DC'S are quacks or have had poor experiences with them. I'm sorry on the behalf of my community. Not all of us wave a magic wand over patients who are lying on our table, then demand they stop taking their lisinopril. I'll start by saying I see many of your chronic pain patients. Also, that I didn't study from the Harry Potter series before any of my exams or the national boards.

My goal: get patients MOBILE. It's just an added bonus when they state that their sleeping and breathing problems have both improved. That's where DC'S get us all in trouble. they start advertising for sleeping, asthma, allergies, and treatment fot MS. When in reality, most of the improvements of those conditions the patients notice when they aren't experiencing as much back or neck pain, or whatever the painful condition may be, and report this to us. Not the other way around....

With that being said, I'm not telling pts to come see me 3x a week for life or they'll die. I'm not telling them to throw out everything in an orange bottle with a Walgreens sticker on it. I'm simply focused on getting an individual active, mobile and back on the field, in the office or driving that huge Costco semi.

Not all of us are so far ****ed off in wizard land.....

On the first day of Chiro School and Medical School we both learned about the same thing: They greys Anatomy. (No, not the TV show ) also, that everything is for the good of the patient. My Grandpa is a retired DC. My dad is a practicing DO.... let's just say, I learned quickly to not bring up what I was learning at school when I came home for the holidays when all seated at the same table.... I believe there needs to be better communication between both sides.

Its been proven, MD'S are 97% more likely to refer to a Physical therapist over a Chiropractor.
Which leads me to ask, Why would you refer to a PT over a DC? Why not clearly identify what you're trying to accomplish then make the decision? It seems like chiro is straight up out of the question! Physical therapists take a weekend seminar on "how to adjust" (Ummmm, Scary.) but they also have many great benefits for a patient who needs care in a specific region, say, a baseball pitcher with a sloppy shoulder who's trying to avoid surgery so he can play college ball....

Chiropractic is great for the whole body. In specifics, chronic pain. But not to leave out, thoracic & lumbar injuries, MVA's and sports injuries.

I just graduated in May. My externship was at a wellness clinic where I saw roughly 400 pts per week, thus- I can accurately adjust and develop realistic treatment plans...

I'm truly interested to hear your thoughts and opinions on sending a pt to a reputable Chiro in your area.... if there is one.

---

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[deleted480308]

You seem sincere so I'll answer (from the perspective of a student likely to end up closer to primary care than pain med). I haven't seen physical therapists trying to pass themselves off as options for primary care. They are much more clear with patients that their title in no way makes them a physician. The chiropractor universe seems more willing to muddy those waters

Also, now that I'm more familiar with the medical side of things than I was when I was a patient I've realized that I can do all the manual techniques I feel are safe myself and I wouldn't recommend going anywhere for treatments I don't feel are safe.

 

[powermd]

I know two chiropractors reasonably well, one from childhood, and another in my community.

Both virtually reject the medical model of treating illness. Both are anti-vaxxers and believe modern medicine is basically a big conspiracy. One put up a youtube video of himself doing an "adjustment" on his newborn child.

Another local chiro gave one of my patients two compression fractures with an adjustment. I fixed her.

 

[Stim4me]

When I tell a chiropractor to stop grade 4 adjustments on patients after 6 weeks, they stop refering to me....

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

I know two chiropractors reasonably well, one from childhood, and another in my community.

Both virtually reject the medical model of treating illness. Both are anti-vaxxers and believe modern medicine is basically a big conspiracy. One put up a youtube video of himself doing an "adjustment" on his newborn child.

Another local chiro gave one of my patients two compression fractures with an adjustment. I fixed her.

I have an arrangement with a local chiropractor. He sticks to the back, doesn't discuss how chiropractic can cure anything except back pain, keeps whatever his opinions are about medicine and vaccines to himself and I send him my back pain patients. The instant I hear that he has broken the rules, he gets no more patients.

Its worked well so far.

 

[InternalMedNP]

Well let's start with the objective data. Study after study shows that about the only thing Chiro's are effective at treating is low back pain. And that is only slightly better than a placebo. They claim to treat all types of diseases with no evidence behind it. They also claim to fix "subluxations" which is pure pseudoscience considering this can not be displayed on any imaging and these subluxations vary by each Chiro. So yes PT gets the referrals as Chiro's are glorified massage therapists at best.

Check out what Dr. Steven Novella says on it sometime, very good lectures.

#Skeptic #AntiPseudoscience

 

[InternalMedNP]

Also forgot to mention "Chiropractic Stroke"......... very dangerous........

 

[SSdoc33]

there is a (relatively small) role for manual therapy in the treatment spine-related pain. thats pretty much where a legitimate chiroprator's treatment ends. no "whole body" crap. no "lumbar decompression". no "cold laser".

we refer to PT because it should be an active rather than a passive treatment.

as soon as someone call tell me what a spinal "subluxation" is, as your entire field is based on this, i may consider more referrals.

 

[Lostin_space]

How did you see 400 pts per week? That's 80 pts per day. Even at busy clinics it's impossible to see that many pts. I know we see about 40+ and that's exhausting.

It's clear to me after reading so many of the posts in this forum of Pain Medicine that most MD'S still think DC'S are quacks or have had poor experiences with them. I'm sorry on the behalf of my community. Not all of us wave a magic wand over patients who are lying on our table, then demand they stop taking their lisinopril. I'll start by saying I see many of your chronic pain patients. Also, that I didn't study from the Harry Potter series before any of my exams or the national boards.

My goal: get patients MOBILE. It's just an added bonus when they state that their sleeping and breathing problems have both improved. That's where DC'S get us all in trouble. they start advertising for sleeping, asthma, allergies, and treatment fot MS. When in reality, most of the improvements of those conditions the patients notice when they aren't experiencing as much back or neck pain, or whatever the painful condition may be, and report this to us. Not the other way around....

With that being said, I'm not telling pts to come see me 3x a week for life or they'll die. I'm not telling them to throw out everything in an orange bottle with a Walgreens sticker on it. I'm simply focused on getting an individual active, mobile and back on the field, in the office or driving that huge Costco semi.

Not all of us are so far ****ed off in wizard land.....

On the first day of Chiro School and Medical School we both learned about the same thing: They greys Anatomy. (No, not the TV show ) also, that everything is for the good of the patient. My Grandpa is a retired DC. My dad is a practicing DO.... let's just say, I learned quickly to not bring up what I was learning at school when I came home for the holidays when all seated at the same table.... I believe there needs to be better communication between both sides.

Its been proven, MD'S are 97% more likely to refer to a Physical therapist over a Chiropractor.
Which leads me to ask, Why would you refer to a PT over a DC? Why not clearly identify what you're trying to accomplish then make the decision? It seems like chiro is straight up out of the question! Physical therapists take a weekend seminar on "how to adjust" (Ummmm, Scary.) but they also have many great benefits for a patient who needs care in a specific region, say, a baseball pitcher with a sloppy shoulder who's trying to avoid surgery so he can play college ball....

Chiropractic is great for the whole body. In specifics, chronic pain. But not to leave out, thoracic & lumbar injuries, MVA's and sports injuries.

I just graduated in May. My externship was at a wellness clinic where I saw roughly 400 pts per week, thus- I can accurately adjust and develop realistic treatment plans...

I'm truly interested to hear your thoughts and opinions on sending a pt to a reputable Chiro in your area.... if there is one.

 

[drusso]

I feel more comfortable sending my patients to a DO who only does OMT.

 

[InternalMedNP]

there is a (relatively small) role for manual therapy in the treatment spine-related pain. thats pretty much where a legitimate chiroprator's treatment ends. no "whole body" crap. no "lumbar decompression". no "cold laser".

we refer to PT because it should be an active rather than a passive treatment.

as soon as someone call tell me what a spinal "subluxation" is, as your entire field is based on this, i may consider more referrals.

I can tell you what it is....... Pseudoscience.........

 

[jesspt]

Physical therapists take a weekend seminar on "how to adjust" (Ummmm, Scary.

This is not accurate. In order to receive accreditation, PT programs must include comprehensive manual therapy instruction, including HVLA, in their curriculum.

 

[Aether2000]

1. One of my patients suffered a MRI proven cord injury from manipulation by a chiropractor
2. Another suffered a vertebral artery transsection via chiropractic manipulation
3. Another had a carcinoma missed by a chiro for a year during manipulation.....eventually the patient died due to mets
That was enough for me.

 

[DC-holla]

Lostin_space- 80 pts a day is considered a decently busy day if you're strictly adjusting. New patient exams which include x-rays and hx, tx plan, etc. Take longer and maybe I'd only see 20 patients on those days, just an example.

Drusso- why a who DO for strictly OMT? I don't even know of a DO who ONLY does OMT. Most take a dif. route and end up actually doing adjustments every 3 months or so. I met a psychiatrist whose a DO and I asked him simply, "why?" he said, "to be able to do cool stuff to my family and friends once in a while.."

In 1998 there was going to be a DCM program, which made absolutely no sense and the board realized this and it came to a screeching hault before anyone actually got the degree or an rx pad... Doctorate of Chiropractic Medicine.

Can I ask you all this: do you agree if your spine is in alignment you're in better health than if not?

 

[deleted480308]

Can I ask you all this: do you agree if your spine is in alignment you're in better health than if not?

If your spine is right your back feels better. "better health" is a dangerously nebulous phrase that tends to grow in scope like the national debt until we end with people claiming chiros can treat patient's cancer

 

[drusso]

Can I ask you all this: do you agree if your spine is in alignment you're in better health than if not?

No. I don't think there is any scientific evidence for that. I prefer that my manual therapists to be medically-trained or under my supervision (I'm a DO--and I do manual treatment on appropriately selected patients for whom I think it may be indicated but refer most out).

I think that most posters here would draw a distinction between chiropractic practices/profession and specific manual modalities applied by a variety of practitioners (MD's, DO's, PT's, OT's, LMT's, AT's etc).

 

[InternalMedNP]

I know that the replies here are probably not what you want to hear. You spent many years obtaining that degree, but don't let cognitive dissonance blind you from seeing the data. However, you seem to not have fallen victim to confirmation bias by seeking opposing views. That I salute!

 

[lonelobo]

http://www.chirobase.org/

 

[ampaphb]

Chiropractic is great for the whole body.

No, it's not

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15330012
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27713575
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27696633
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27186365
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26871802
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20525197

 

[hyperalgesia]

1. One of my patients suffered a MRI proven cord injury from manipulation by a chiropractor
2. Another suffered a vertebral artery transsection via chiropractic manipulation
3. Another had a carcinoma missed by a chiro for a year during manipulation.....eventually the patient died due to mets
That was enough for me.

That is horrible. But we may be generalizing too much. There are plenty of MDs who have injured the SC, missed cancer and done other horrible things to pts too. You could have chiropractors that practice "do no harm".

 

[ampaphb]

Statement of Policy on Chiropractic
Adopted by AMA House of Delegates

November 1966

It is the position of the medical profession that chiropractic is an unscientific cult whose practitioners lack the necessary training and background to diagnose and treat human disease. Chiropractic constitutes a hazard to rational health care in the United States because of the substandard and unscientific education of its practitioners and their rigid adherence to an irrational, unscientific approach to disease causation.

In 1965, a United States District Court, in upholding a state's constitutional right to refuse to license chiropractors, said that "since chiropractic claims to be a complete and independent healing art capable of curing almost all kinds of disease, the state Legislature may have felt that the requirement of a foundation in materia medica and surgery . . . would be a protection to the public." Without dissent, the United States Supreme Court affirmed the decision.

The wisdom of these decisions by the nation's highest courts justifies the medical profession's educational program of alerting the nation to the public health threat posed by the cult of chiropractic.

Patients should entrust their health care only to those who have a broad scientific knowledge of diseases and ailments of all kinds, and who are capable of diagnosing and treating them with all the resources of modern medicine. The delay of proper medical care caused by chiropractors and their opposition to the many scientific advances in modern medicine, such as lifesaving vaccines, often ends with tragic results.

 

[lobelsteve]

2 patients s/p posterior circulation stroke from VAD after HVLA by DC.
1 patient treated for 6 months by DC for back pain. Initial Xray showed mets to L3, missed by DC.

 

[ampaphb]

I just graduated in May. My externship was at a wellness clinic where I saw roughly 400 pts per week, thus- I can accurately adjust and develop realistic treatment plans...

If I were a patient with neck or back pain, would I go to the doc who, on average, graducated witha GPA of 2-2.5? Or 3.5-4?

To all the MDs who struggle with Medicare, CMS, and insurance companies, understand that the vast majority of chiropractors focus on Comp and PI patients. While Medicare will pay Dr. DC-holla $45 per adjustment, PI cases will pay $200-250 for that same treatment. 400/wk is ~5min/pt over a 7hr day (with an hour for lunch)

Further, let's low-ball her patients population, and say it is 1/3 medicare ($45/pt), 1/3 insurance (~$75/pt), and 1/3 PI ($200/pt).

133 x 45 = $5,985. 133 x 75 = $9,975. 133 x 200 = $26,600.
Dr. DC holla grosses $46,560/week
Assume she has a 50% overhead, and takes two weeks vacation a year.
She nets $1,064,000 yearly.

Given that she probably sees more like 80% PI patients, that number is likely far higher

College GPA 2.5. Yearly net $1M. Not bad ...

 

[powermd]

If I were a patient with neck or back pain, would I go to the doc who, on average, graducated witha GPA of 2-2.5? Or 3.5-4?

To all the MDs who struggle with Medicare, CMS, and insurance companies, understand that the vast majority of chiropractors focus on Comp and PI patients. While Medicare will pay Dr. DC-holla $45 per adjustment, PI cases will pay $200-250 for that same treatment. 400/wk is ~5min/pt over a 7hr day (with an hour for lunch)

Further, let's low-ball her patients population, and say it is 1/3 medicare ($45/pt), 1/3 insurance (~$75/pt), and 1/3 PI ($200/pt).

133 x 45 = $5,985. 133 x 75 = $9,975. 133 x 200 = $26,600.
Dr. DC holla grosses $46,560
Assume she has a 50% overhead, and takes two weeks vacation a year.
She nets $1,064,000 yearly.

Given that she probably sees more like 80% PI patients, that number is likely far higher

College GPA 2.5. Yearly net $1M. Not bad ...

And $3000 for malpractice.

http://akchiropractic.com/new-patient-center/common-questions-about-chiro--faq-.html

Notice the language used here. In response to a FAQ question "Isn't chiropractic dangerous", the response is: "A look at malpractice insurance premium costs says it all; M.D. costs $22,000 - $175,000 per year while Chiropractic malpractice insurance premium costs are $1,500 - $3,000 for the same liability limits."

Well, it sure does. You take on more liability when you're actually doing something to the patient.

 

[DC-holla]

InternalmedNP- thank you. I knew i would be seeing the typical response "Chiros are wack and don't follow MD Empire instructions" but I was looking for answers to my question, which I did get! From most all

ampaphb- in addition to just answer my question based on your experience, I actually thought i was scott free in tne insult department. Give a girl a heads up please if you're going to continually bend me over and bang me without lube on a Friday at that. in regards to numbers that don't exist and assuming my GPA is in the 2.x range? Wrong (in Trump's voice)
Hell yes Chiropractors go after a lot of PIP and L&I, we can get the patient better, and functioning fast and get paid better for it. $45an hr is wrong for Medicaid. so are my GPA and insurance and overhead costs. but I ain't bouts to tell a doc hez wrong mite risk lozin referrals, then I'd beh effed.

I knew I'd have to listen to opinions I don't agree with. I havent insulted any of you with my thoughts. I am not anti medicine. I'm pro do your own research which includes finding out hard truths that i WILL tell every patient: if you smoke, stop now. if you're overweight, let's form a realistic exercise and meal plan. Most patients who don't want to hear these things are medicare patients on a **** load of opioids who say "I love seeing you, but I'm only here because my pain doc told me I had to choose to see a Chiropractor or pt if I still wanted my meds." <<what the hell is that noise?

Some of the docs i work closely with are dudes who's got MD's on the end of their names, who sends MVA patients to me, who whip out a bottle of oxycodone-apap #180. and the first thing the pts with no rx experience say is, "I have all these pain pills and I'm not sure how he thinks I'll need 6 a day so tomorrow at the office I'll be the percocet fairy, 2 for you, 2 for you, 2 for you hahaha." talk about SCARY.

I recieve about 5 calls a week from lawyers (don't get me started) who ask me to lunch, then proceed to propose an arrangement for their MVA, L&I or care other clients cases their handling. I accept them all. Great money.

Chiro is way different than medicine. can't be compared. pt shows up to me complaint of bladder infection symptoms. straight to urgent care they go, no adjustment for you today! pt shows up to me with low back pain.... is it complicated UTI that's moved to the kidneys, possible stone? I'm willing to do the adjustment then make some suggestions.

We have to work together and all the MD'S have been super nice to me thus far. no complaints

 

[InternalMedNP]

That is horrible. But we may be generalizing too much. There are plenty of MDs who have injured the SC, missed cancer and done other horrible things to pts too. You could have chiropractors that practice "do no harm".

The difference is there is no positive benefit really to Chiropractic treatments so you have high risk with no to low benefit. The MD/DO is using EBM to treat their patient so there are highly positive outcomes with a low risk for negative outcomes........

 

[deleted480308]

InternalmedNP- thank you. I knew i would be seeing the typical response "Chiros are wack and don't follow MD Empire instructions" but I was looking for answers to my question, which I did get! From most all

ampaphb- in addition to just answer my question based on your experience, I actually thought i was scott free in tne insult department. Give a girl a heads up please if you're going to continually bend me over and bang me without lube on a Friday at that. in regards to numbers that don't exist and assuming my GPA is in the 2.x range? Wrong (in Trump's voice)
Hell yes Chiropractors go after a lot of PIP and L&I, we can get the patient better, and functioning fast and get paid better for it. $45an hr is wrong for Medicaid. so are my GPA and insurance and overhead costs. but I ain't bouts to tell a doc hez wrong mite risk lozin referrals, then I'd beh effed.

I knew I'd have to listen to opinions I don't agree with. I havent insulted any of you with my thoughts. I am not anti medicine. I'm pro do your own research which includes finding out hard truths that i WILL tell every patient: if you smoke, stop now. if you're overweight, let's form a realistic exercise and meal plan. Most patients who don't want to hear these things are medicare patients on a **** load of opioids who say "I love seeing you, but I'm only here because my pain doc told me I had to choose to see a Chiropractor or pt if I still wanted my meds." <<what the hell is that noise?

Some of the docs i work closely with are dudes who's got MD's on the end of their names, who sends MVA patients to me, who whip out a bottle of oxycodone-apap #180. and the first thing the pts with no rx experience say is, "I have all these pain pills and I'm not sure how he thinks I'll need 6 a day so tomorrow at the office I'll be the percocet fairy, 2 for you, 2 for you, 2 for you hahaha." talk about SCARY.

I recieve about 5 calls a week from lawyers (don't get me started) who ask me to lunch, then proceed to propose an arrangement for their MVA, L&I or care other clients cases their handling. I accept them all. Great money.

Chiro is way different than medicine. can't be compared. pt shows up to me complaint of bladder infection symptoms. straight to urgent care they go, no adjustment for you today! pt shows up to me with low back pain.... is it complicated UTI that's moved to the kidneys, possible stone? I'm willing to do the adjustment then make some suggestions.

We have to work together and all the MD'S have been super nice to me thus far. no complaints

Why are you formulating exercise and diet plans, evaluating for uti or discussing rx with patients?

 

[DC-holla]

Why are you formulating exercise and diet plans, evaluating for uti or discussing rx with patients?

Maybe you should read my post again.

 

[InternalMedNP]

I knew I'd have to listen to opinions I don't agree with. I havent insulted any of you with my thoughts. I am not anti medicine. I'm pro do your own research which includes finding out hard truths that i WILL tell every patient: if you smoke, stop now. if you're overweight, let's form a realistic exercise and meal plan. Most patients who don't want to hear these things are medicare patients on a **** load of opioids who say "I love seeing you, but I'm only here because my pain doc told me I had to choose to see a Chiropractor or pt if I still wanted my meds." <<what the hell is that noise?

These aren't just simply "opinions" you don't agree with. Everything we are saying is backed by objective research that has been done numerous times. I wouldn't insult you because as expected you are going to defend your investment in years worth of school. Nobody wants to be told that the years they spent in school were wasted learning treatments that the scientific community view as pseudoscience. Most of the "evidence" for chiropractic treatments is only anecdotal.

Also, can you explain to us what a subluxation is?

 

[DC-holla]

Why are you formulating exercise and diet plans, evaluating for uti or discussing rx with patients?

I am absolutely able to formulate diet and exercise plans.

I was stating I do not claim to treat everything like a pcp would. if they complaint of a UTI I tell them to go to urgent care or docs office. and me discussing their rx? there is no discussion I just have to stare at my computer and keep typing when they decide to tell me all about their rx's.

 

[DC-holla]

These aren't just simply "opinions" you don't agree with. Everything we are saying is backed by objective research that has been done numerous times. I wouldn't insult you because as expected you are going to defend your investment in years worth of school. Nobody wants to be told that the years they spent in school were wasted learning treatments that the scientific community view as pseudoscience. Most of the "evidence" for chiropractic treatments is only anecdotal.

Also, can you explain to us what a subluxation is?

I would do it if you actually wanted to know, but you don't, because you already do (or think you do) if you are however wanting more information from me, I'm open to scheduling a chat via face time so I can educate you on all things Chiro and you can tell me why I'm wrong and someone will die soon on my table in the remote future.

 

[deleted480308]

I would do it if you actually wanted to know, but you don't, because you already do (or think you do) if you are however wanting more information from me, I'm open to scheduling a chat via face time so I can educate you on all things Chiro and you can tell me why I'm wrong and someone will die soon on my table in the remote future.

I think it was a fair question, even if the supposition is that the answer won't be satisfactory. But this is a legitimate chance to educate a portion of the medical community forever....can you explain the subluxation and it's treatments and benefits to that treatment?

 

[hyperalgesia]

The difference is there is no positive benefit really to Chiropractic treatments so you have high risk with no to low benefit. The MD/DO is using EBM to treat their patient so there are highly positive outcomes with a low risk for negative outcomes........

I have had some pts, mostly young men who insist on getting "something done about this". They are angry at their PT for trying to make them exercise, and determined to get narcs or surgery. Some of these guys have seen a chiropractor, been told they have "subluxation" and they are "completely our of alignment" and been "manipulated" and otherwise treated. Some, not all, have responded to this. They have avoided surgery and take less narcotics.

I've definitely seen plenty of shadiness too though. "My chiro told me I need a fusion", etc. I haven't seen the catastrophes the others have commented on and that definitely gives me pause.

I don't think of chiros as "healthcare professionals". I would not compare them to MD/DOs or PTs or others who practice EBM. They are complementary/alternative medicine practitioners and should not pretend otherwise.

 

[Yo GabbaPentin]

I've actually only run into chiros in my area running games of 3 card monte downtown. Are you saying that they do more than that? Maybe something with lasers?

 

[Stim4me]

You can tell a good chiropractor when they know when to stop and get help, just like any other field...

Btw please don't get into chiro manipulations under anesthesia, you will harm people, guaranteed. It's especially lucrative in some shady attorney-chiro-surgical center racketeering schemes....don't fall for the low lying fruit.

 

[Dr. Ice]

I disagree. I think there is a wonderful role for chiro. I send all my "myofascial pain syndrome" patients to them specifically for total body manipulation, vax d, laser, to be told that their spines are out of "alignment" or that one leg is functionally longer, that they all have sij/piriformis bs or whatever can justify their business.

 

[Fiveoboy11]

You seem sincere so I'll answer (from the perspective of a student likely to end up closer to primary care than pain med). I haven't seen physical therapists trying to pass themselves off as options for primary care. They are much more clear with patients that their title in no way makes them a physician. The chiropractor universe seems more willing to muddy those waters

Also, now that I'm more familiar with the medical side of things than I was when I was a patient I've realized that I can do all the manual techniques I feel are safe myself and I wouldn't recommend going anywhere for treatments I don't feel are safe.

Physical therapists and chiropractors shouldn't pawn themselves off as physicians whether primary care or otherwise. At the same time I don't think physicians or chiropractors should try to pass themselves off as trained and having expertise in physical therapy as they do all the time.

 

[Goro]

Hey, if the shoe fits.

It's clear to me after reading so many of the posts in this forum of Pain Medicine that most MD'S still think DC'S are quacks or have had poor experiences with them.

 

[DC-holla]

I have had some pts, mostly young men who insist on getting "something done about this". They are angry at their PT for trying to make them exercise, and determined to get narcs or surgery. Some of these guys have seen a chiropractor, been told they have "subluxation" and they are "completely our of alignment" and been "manipulated" and otherwise treated. Some, not all, have responded to this. They have avoided surgery and take less narcotics.

I've definitely seen plenty of shadiness too though. "My chiro told me I need a fusion", etc. I haven't seen the catastrophes the others have commented on and that definitely gives me pause.

I don't think of chiros as "healthcare professionals". I would not compare them to MD/DOs or PTs or others who practice EBM. They are complementary/alternative medicine practitioners and should not pretend otherwise.

Exactly. Thank you.
Refer to my original post where DC'S advertising as sleep, asthma and cancer care providers are ruining things for the "good eggs" in the Chiropractic community. We CAN be helpful in more ways than one. If a family has the beliefs of getting regularly adjusted to stay in optimal health then so be it. I see quite a few families like this. THEY may call me their primary care provider. I do not advertise as such. We are different from the medical community. Our position is injury aide, wellness & preventative care practitioner as well as a nutritional aide. To give you an idea in my office and how I don't pretend to be YOU:

My services and Therapies-
• Corrective Exercises
• Lifestyle Advice
• Nutritional Counseling
• Specific Spinal Ajustments
• On-Premise Digital X-Ray Unit
• sEMG (Surface EMG) and Thermal Scan
(see first visit)
• Massage Therapy
• Ideal Protein Diet Program
• Spinal Decompression
• Electrical Muscle Stimulation (helps w/acute injuries & swelling)
• Inter-segmental Traction

Most Recent testimony:
"I had been living with bad right leg pain, and thoracic pain for 35 years, but due to my wife's poor experience with an osteopath, I was afraid to try chiropractic. I was nothen improving any other way, but drugs and surgery were not the answer. I met Dr. Samm and she explained a lot of things, including how chiropractic is different than osteopathy. This made me willing to try chiropractic. After a computer scan, x-rays, and a complete exam, Dr. Samm sat me down and explained what it would take to improve my spine problems. I was amazed that after ONE adjustment, my mid back felt 100% better! I knew I wasn’t finished, there was still work to do. After 2 months my legs and hips were 100% better. I’ve told everyone who will listen how great chiropractic is. Why did I wait so long?"

1/2 of you are laughing and or disgusted right now I can just see it

My Education:

• Doctor of Chiropractic (D.C.) – University of Western States Health Sciences
• Certified Chiropractic Sports Physician (C.C.S.P.)
• Bachelor of Science (B.S.) Biology/Chemistry – Oregon State University
• Associates in Nutrition (A.A)- Whatcom Community College

I'm not a glorified massage therapist- (thank you btw) as one of you told me I was above. Its clear that Some of you not only do not like Chiros, but are seriously resentful towards them..... why else would all these insults be coming my way from someone asking a question?
There are so many people who swear by our care and that alone makes my job so worth while. That's the whole thing- I'm GUESSING lot of you see the patients who need or want meds and procedures. I see a lot of pts who are very active; cyclists- mountain climbers, runners, soccer players, baseball, football, cheerleaders. I like it this way too. Active people who are "wellness minded" Hearing someone say that no amount of pills or injections could give them this relief doesn't make me feel resentful towards the medical community.... it makes me feel grateful that so many different options exist and I am but a small vessel.

 

[pastafan]

http://www.academia.edu/13034467/Re...ns_versus_imaginary_chiropractic_subluxations

 

[Dr. Ice]

Exactly. Thank you.
Refer to my original post where DC'S advertising as sleep, asthma and cancer care providers are ruining things for the "good eggs" in the Chiropractic community. We CAN be helpful in more ways than one. If a family has the beliefs of getting regularly adjusted to stay in optimal health then so be it. I see quite a few families like this. THEY may call me their primary care provider. I do not advertise as such. We are different from the medical community. Our position is injury aide, wellness & preventative care practitioner as well as a nutritional aide. To give you an idea in my office and how I don't pretend to be YOU:

My services and Therapies-
• Corrective Exercises
• Lifestyle Advice
• Nutritional Counseling
• Specific Spinal Ajustments
• On-Premise Digital X-Ray Unit
• sEMG (Surface EMG) and Thermal Scan
(see first visit)
• Massage Therapy
• Ideal Protein Diet Program
• Spinal Decompression
• Electrical Muscle Stimulation (helps w/acute injuries & swelling)
• Inter-segmental Traction

Most Recent testimony:
"I had been living with bad right leg pain, and thoracic pain for 35 years, but due to my wife's poor experience with an osteopath, I was afraid to try chiropractic. I was nothen improving any other way, but drugs and surgery were not the answer. I met Dr. Samm and she explained a lot of things, including how chiropractic is different than osteopathy. This made me willing to try chiropractic. After a computer scan, x-rays, and a complete exam, Dr. Samm sat me down and explained what it would take to improve my spine problems. I was amazed that after ONE adjustment, my mid back felt 100% better! I knew I wasn’t finished, there was still work to do. After 2 months my legs and hips were 100% better. I’ve told everyone who will listen how great chiropractic is. Why did I wait so long?"

1/2 of you are laughing and or disgusted right now I can just see it

My Education:

• Doctor of Chiropractic (D.C.) – University of Western States Health Sciences
• Certified Chiropractic Sports Physician (C.C.S.P.)
• Bachelor of Science (B.S.) Biology/Chemistry – Oregon State University
• Associates in Nutrition (A.A)- Whatcom Community College

I'm not a glorified massage therapist- (thank you btw) as one of you told me I was above. Its clear that Some of you not only do not like Chiros, but are seriously resentful towards them..... why else would all these insults be coming my way from someone asking a question?
There are so many people who swear by our care and that alone makes my job so worth while. That's the whole thing- I'm GUESSING lot of you see the patients who need or want meds and procedures. I see a lot of pts who are very active; cyclists- mountain climbers, runners, soccer players, baseball, football, cheerleaders. I like it this way too. Active people who are "wellness minded" Hearing someone say that no amount of pills or injections could give them this relief doesn't make me feel resentful towards the medical community.... it makes me feel grateful that so many different options exist and I am but a small vessel.

I don't know why any of us are wasting our time with this. Surface emg?! Gimme a freaking break. So absurd

 

[deleted480308]

Exactly. Thank you.
Refer to my original post where DC'S advertising as sleep, asthma and cancer care providers are ruining things for the "good eggs" in the Chiropractic community. We CAN be helpful in more ways than one. If a family has the beliefs of getting regularly adjusted to stay in optimal health then so be it. I see quite a few families like this. THEY may call me their primary care provider. I do not advertise as such. We are different from the medical community. Our position is injury aide, wellness & preventative care practitioner as well as a nutritional aide. To give you an idea in my office and how I don't pretend to be YOU:

My services and Therapies-
• Corrective Exercises
• Lifestyle Advice
• Nutritional Counseling
• Specific Spinal Ajustments
• On-Premise Digital X-Ray Unit
• sEMG (Surface EMG) and Thermal Scan
(see first visit)
• Massage Therapy
• Ideal Protein Diet Program
• Spinal Decompression
• Electrical Muscle Stimulation (helps w/acute injuries & swelling)
• Inter-segmental Traction

Most Recent testimony:
"I had been living with bad right leg pain, and thoracic pain for 35 years, but due to my wife's poor experience with an osteopath, I was afraid to try chiropractic. I was nothen improving any other way, but drugs and surgery were not the answer. I met Dr. Samm and she explained a lot of things, including how chiropractic is different than osteopathy. This made me willing to try chiropractic. After a computer scan, x-rays, and a complete exam, Dr. Samm sat me down and explained what it would take to improve my spine problems. I was amazed that after ONE adjustment, my mid back felt 100% better! I knew I wasn’t finished, there was still work to do. After 2 months my legs and hips were 100% better. I’ve told everyone who will listen how great chiropractic is. Why did I wait so long?"

1/2 of you are laughing and or disgusted right now I can just see it

My Education:

• Doctor of Chiropractic (D.C.) – University of Western States Health Sciences
• Certified Chiropractic Sports Physician (C.C.S.P.)
• Bachelor of Science (B.S.) Biology/Chemistry – Oregon State University
• Associates in Nutrition (A.A)- Whatcom Community College

I'm not a glorified massage therapist- (thank you btw) as one of you told me I was above. Its clear that Some of you not only do not like Chiros, but are seriously resentful towards them..... why else would all these insults be coming my way from someone asking a question?
There are so many people who swear by our care and that alone makes my job so worth while. That's the whole thing- I'm GUESSING lot of you see the patients who need or want meds and procedures. I see a lot of pts who are very active; cyclists- mountain climbers, runners, soccer players, baseball, football, cheerleaders. I like it this way too. Active people who are "wellness minded" Hearing someone say that no amount of pills or injections could give them this relief doesn't make me feel resentful towards the medical community.... it makes me feel grateful that so many different options exist and I am but a small vessel.

What do you say when a customer calls you their primary care provider?

 

[DC-holla]

What do you say when a customer calls you their primary care provider?

They aren't customers.
They have never said it to me, but I've read it written on a few forms

 

[DC-holla]

Wow some of you are really upset about this and I can't figure out why. do you get this worked up about acupuncturists? they are wellness and preventative care too.... neither of us are claiming to be anything other. what's the big D?

 

[deleted480308]

They aren't customers.
They have never said it to me, but I've read it written on a few forms

I think the productivity of the discussion is declining. enjoy your evening.

 

[Michael_Scott]

Wow some of you are really upset about this and I can't figure out why. do you get this worked up about acupuncturists? they are wellness and preventative care too.... neither of us are claiming to be anything other. what's the big D?

To be fair to the physicians in here, I think you brought up this bogus topic and the foreseeable tension. You are not going to change anyone's mind here as physicians are trained well in their art and chiropractors cannot take any piece of that or provide any treatment superior to anything physicians can.
Not trying to discount what you guys are doing but some of the treatments you listed put a glorified massage therapist vibe.
To add, I am a supporter of exploring ayurvedic medicine...so not close minded to different forms of healing.

 

[InternalMedNP]

I have had some pts, mostly young men who insist on getting "something done about this". They are angry at their PT for trying to make them exercise, and determined to get narcs or surgery. Some of these guys have seen a chiropractor, been told they have "subluxation" and they are "completely our of alignment" and been "manipulated" and otherwise treated. Some, not all, have responded to this. They have avoided surgery and take less narcotics.

The problem with this is that this response can be attributed to a placebo effect. Which a lot of people will say, who cares, as long as they get relief why does it matter. However, as many have said before there are many, many, risks with Chiropractic treatments. So why not use a placebo with less risk such as massage therapy? Or have them stick with evidence based PT.

Most Recent testimony:
"I had been living with bad right leg pain, and thoracic pain for 35 years, but due to my wife's poor experience with an osteopath, I was afraid to try chiropractic. I was nothen improving any other way, but drugs and surgery were not the answer. I met Dr. Samm and she explained a lot of things, including how chiropractic is different than osteopathy. This made me willing to try chiropractic. After a computer scan, x-rays, and a complete exam, Dr. Samm sat me down and explained what it would take to improve my spine problems. I was amazed that after ONE adjustment, my mid back felt 100% better! I knew I wasn’t finished, there was still work to do. After 2 months my legs and hips were 100% better. I’ve told everyone who will listen how great chiropractic is. Why did I wait so long?"

That is a great testimonial. However, why are you willing to take anecdotal evidence over peer reviewed studies?
Why do you think that most scientists view chiropractic treatments in such a negative way? bias? conspiracy? money?

Also I should have been clear on my subluxation question. There are actual medical subluxations and then there are these chiropractic subluxations. That is what I was wanting you to tell us about. Maybe i'm missing something and can learn from you. As of right now I have not seen any studies that indicate these chiropractic subluxations are even real.

And yes Accupuncture is pseudoscience as well. There are numerous studies showing that it is no more effective than a placebo.

 

[Mad Jack]

To be fair to the physicians in here, I think you brought up this bogus topic and the foreseeable tension. You are not going to change anyone's mind here as physicians are trained well in their art and chiropractors cannot take any piece of that or provide any treatment superior to anything physicians can.
Not trying to discount what you guys are doing but some of the treatments you listed put a glorified massage therapist vibe.
To add, I am a supporter of exploring ayurvedic medicine...so not close minded to different forms of healing.

That's actually not the worst I've seen him do. His lumbar manipulation makes me wince with pain errytime.

 

[cbest]

How does surface EMG and thermal scanning aid in diagnosis? Has it ever changed your management?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[Michael_Scott]

It's clear to me after reading so many of the posts in this forum of Pain Medicine that most MD'S still think DC'S are quacks or have had poor experiences with them. I'm sorry on the behalf of my community. Not all of us wave a magic wand over patients who are lying on our table, then demand they stop taking their lisinopril. I'll start by saying I see many of your chronic pain patients. Also, that I didn't study from the Harry Potter series before any of my exams or the national boards.

My goal: get patients MOBILE. It's just an added bonus when they state that their sleeping and breathing problems have both improved. That's where DC'S get us all in trouble. they start advertising for sleeping, asthma, allergies, and treatment fot MS. When in reality, most of the improvements of those conditions the patients notice when they aren't experiencing as much back or neck pain, or whatever the painful condition may be, and report this to us. Not the other way around....

With that being said, I'm not telling pts to come see me 3x a week for life or they'll die. I'm not telling them to throw out everything in an orange bottle with a Walgreens sticker on it. I'm simply focused on getting an individual active, mobile and back on the field, in the office or driving that huge Costco semi.

Not all of us are so far ****ed off in wizard land.....

On the first day of Chiro School and Medical School we both learned about the same thing: They greys Anatomy. (No, not the TV show ) also, that everything is for the good of the patient. My Grandpa is a retired DC. My dad is a practicing DO.... let's just say, I learned quickly to not bring up what I was learning at school when I came home for the holidays when all seated at the same table.... I believe there needs to be better communication between both sides.

Its been proven, MD'S are 97% more likely to refer to a Physical therapist over a Chiropractor.
Which leads me to ask, Why would you refer to a PT over a DC? Why not clearly identify what you're trying to accomplish then make the decision? It seems like chiro is straight up out of the question! Physical therapists take a weekend seminar on "how to adjust" (Ummmm, Scary.) but they also have many great benefits for a patient who needs care in a specific region, say, a baseball pitcher with a sloppy shoulder who's trying to avoid surgery so he can play college ball....

Chiropractic is great for the whole body. In specifics, chronic pain. But not to leave out, thoracic & lumbar injuries, MVA's and sports injuries.

I just graduated in May. My externship was at a wellness clinic where I saw roughly 400 pts per week, thus- I can accurately adjust and develop realistic treatment plans...

I'm truly interested to hear your thoughts and opinions on sending a pt to a reputable Chiro in your area.... if there is one.

now that everyone has unloaded on you, lol.... I would really like to learn about this still maintaining my original position. What exactly is happening here that helped this kid. :