Lots of loans now for new dental graduates can reach up to 400-600k worth of student loans on top of a fixed interest rate which would result in a high amount to just pay your interest fees! One of my relatives have trouble paying back her student loans and had to beg her mother for money to pay it back. I would never want to be in that position. Do you think it is financially worth it to be a dentist with such high student loans, assuming you do not get the free scholarship that military offers? Can you still live a fairly good life with those type of student loans? I don't want to be 50 or 60 and have no assets still trying to pay off my student loans.
High dental loans how long to pay off typically?
- Thread starter dkgrubby
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You have to draw a line somewhere. I drew it at 100K. That's why I joined the military. You would be surprised to see how high students can go with debt. The guy I replaced when entering ortho had $750K in educational debt alone. Do you think that stopped him from taking out a loan to do a start up? Nope. I'm so scared of debt, I didn't even start up or buy after finishing my residency despite saving hundreds of thousands of dollars by going through the military. I'm an employee, and I'm happy to be so. Tuition at University of Pacific is currently $104,585 per year. That's just tuition. And if you don't have the stomach to pay, there will always be some other sucker who will. We're not a war right now, so to get a military scholarship will probably be next to impossible. Good luck. Just draw a line in the sand and decide what you're comfortable with. If it doesn't exist, then dental school is simply financially cost prohibitive.
I can't help but think dentistry will change so much due to this debt burden.
Those that graduate debt free will be the wealthy dentists that employ those from less fortunate families, furthering the divide.
ADA membership will wane as more and more look at that $1200 a year and think "Can I really afford this? What does it do for me?". I know I hesitate each year.
Sponsored CE will be more common because of it.
Philanthropy is based on being able to be generous. I expect fewer debt laden dentists will donate services.
The weakening of the ADA combined with the increasing power of the insurance companies will pinch dentists more.
But back to the question:
I'm on a 10 year plan. $239k debt from tuition alone (thanks to my wife). $2927/month. Took 2 years before I stopped sweating when "debt payment day" arrived each month. Frequently only a few hundred dollars left.
Things are better now, almost 5 years out. Maybe soon I'll be able to afford a retirement account.
One day.
The Social Security website assures me I'll have about $300/month to live on after I'm 70.
Enjoy.
PD
Those that graduate debt free will be the wealthy dentists that employ those from less fortunate families, furthering the divide.
ADA membership will wane as more and more look at that $1200 a year and think "Can I really afford this? What does it do for me?". I know I hesitate each year.
Sponsored CE will be more common because of it.
Philanthropy is based on being able to be generous. I expect fewer debt laden dentists will donate services.
The weakening of the ADA combined with the increasing power of the insurance companies will pinch dentists more.
But back to the question:
I'm on a 10 year plan. $239k debt from tuition alone (thanks to my wife). $2927/month. Took 2 years before I stopped sweating when "debt payment day" arrived each month. Frequently only a few hundred dollars left.
Things are better now, almost 5 years out. Maybe soon I'll be able to afford a retirement account.
One day.
The Social Security website assures me I'll have about $300/month to live on after I'm 70.
Enjoy.
PD
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I was listening to a podcast of Dave Ramsey and this caller was in 400-500k debt and his first year out he was only making 120k. I immediately thought he was an idiot, then it turns out he was in dentistry which could be a the same story as me! I am a money guy and I heard that your debt should not be higher than your first year salary and my financial advice mindset has warning signs around dentistry. But if you can pay off the debt ASAP then I still think dentistry is pretty promising. Would love to hear more advice on here.
I would absolutely love to join the military and receive the HPSP scholarship. That is the only way being a dentist would financially make sense to me. However I heard it is extremely competitive. Care to elaborate more on how competitive it is? Even if the military scholarship offers 3 year payment, I will still take.
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When I was last on AD, in 2014, I was the liaison for dental officer recruiting in the Florida/Georgia area. There were many more applications than spots available. Applicants had excellent grades. 3.8+ GPA's were common with DAT scores usually 21+. These people were probably qualified enough to make it into relatively affordable dental schools where the HPSP scholarship really isn't that useful. But that was the application pool. It's been a few years now but I don't expect competition to decrease until we go to war again. When we invade Iran or whatever war is next, wait about a year and then you'll see the competition dramatically drop.
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Same boat here. Started at $275k-ish. Consolidated to 30 years ($1700/month). I planned to pay it off in 10 years ($3500/month), but I had a baby in there and insurance reimbursement dropped like 20% (thanks UC and Delta). So now I'm on the 15 year repayment ($2250/month until its gone) plan. I'm sitting at about $95k left, 7 years out of school. We live on hubby's salary and he does retirement savings. I pay my loans and baby stuff. It'll be better when the loans are gone.
btw, kids are expensive.
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I came to this a little late but feel I have something to add.
I am a dentist on the downhill side of my career with children the age of most dental students.
I steered my kids away from dentistry.
My 27 year old child is working as an accountant in a major manufacturing company. His life style and professional freedom of choice is far better then the dental residents and young dentists I work with.
I am a dentist on the downhill side of my career with children the age of most dental students.
I steered my kids away from dentistry.
My 27 year old child is working as an accountant in a major manufacturing company. His life style and professional freedom of choice is far better then the dental residents and young dentists I work with.
S
schmoob
He wouldn't have always been a young dentist.
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Recent grad endodontist who came to my practice for interview had $600k loans without taking compound interests into consideration. $6000 a month for 10 years or even longer. That means $10,000 of his monthly gross production goes right into his student loans....
I would rather take some good weekend endo classes, cherrypick easy cases, and buildup my skills. The cost of my education for CEs should be around several thousand dollars maximum.
Good luck with paying back that much loans after traveling to GP's office every day..
I would rather take some good weekend endo classes, cherrypick easy cases, and buildup my skills. The cost of my education for CEs should be around several thousand dollars maximum.
Good luck with paying back that much loans after traveling to GP's office every day..
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If this endodontist is willing to drive far to multiple GP offices, where they save for him a couple of highly paid complex endo cases per day, he'll do very well. A lot of GP offices' owners want to invite the specialists to come work for them. Who wouldn't want to earn additional income by keeping everything in-house? If this endodontist gets 50% (around $800-1000) for each molar endo case at each of these GP offices, he should have no problem paying off that $600k loan. He should be in a much better financial shape than a GP, who owes $300k. The same is true for ortho, perio and OS. The more offices one is willing to travel to and the harder one is willing to work, the higher the income.
Those numbers seem a bit off to me. A molar endo by a specialist in my area is usually $1200. 50% of two cases a day would then be about $1200 a day income.
That's not a great deal more than I earn a day but with quadruple the debt (ignoring compounding interest, which really ought not be ignored with those numbers).
It will get paid off, but it will take a long time... and all assuming it's possible to fill ones schedule with those cases (subtracting cases that turn out to be reversible pulpitis or extraction cases) early on.
Realistically, being that full takes time - your referral base doesn't yet know you. The dentists I've worked for are stuck in their referral patterns. The young DDS's are key.
It's odd to me how confident/ dismissive people are about paying off such numbers early in ones career without apparent concern for ones retirement, mortgage, vacations, cars, insurance, children, childcare, children's college (yes, paying for theirs whilst paying for ones own) after- school activities etc.
I know if it weren't for my wife's job we'd be in bad shape (although, without children, it would be ok). I'm still only a few months from going under after 4.5 yrs out while for the past 2 years earning (apparently) around the top 2% of all incomes nationwide. Staggering.
That's why I tell people it's a "good" job. Debt makes a big difference.
Consider having the power of compound interest (ideally invested, rather than simply sitting earning interest; as in stocks or your own business) on your debt instead of paying out off.
This is my point: those without debt will enjoy a good income and therefore a considerably different financial life than those with hundreds of thousands in debt.
Unless you're living it, I wouldn't dismiss it as manageable.
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You are right. My numbers are probably off. I mistook them with implant placement fees for I always thought endodontists generally make more than periodontists. My neighbor (also a former dental classmate) is an endo and he seems to do very well. I know many HMO plans pay the endodontists much less. So they have to make up for the low fees with high patient volume, speed and great skills. It probably takes an endodontist 3-4 hours to complete 2-3 molar endo cases. Getting paid $1200 for working 3-4 hours is not bad. With the extra time he/she has, he can either travel to another office in the afternoon, work at his/her own office, or go home spending time with the kids. For an inexperienced new grad GP to make that much, he/she may have to work 2 full 8-hour days.
Since the specialists only travel to the GP offices a few days a month, the GP owners usually save enough patients to keep them busy. It’s not unusual to have 40-80 patients on the appointment book on an ortho day at a GP office. If the specialists are willing to travel and are not picky about the job offers, they should have no problem having solidly booked schedule 5-6 days/week.
As I mentioned on this post (https://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/residency-right-after-graduation-vs-working.1243755/), paying back student loans is just a small part. There are plenty of other things you have to worry about, especially when you are married and have kids. I think you can overcome all difficulties in life (including paying back student loans) if you have a happy marriage and a spouse, who also has good work ethic like you. You and I are both very lucky that we married the right person.
Graduating debt-free doesn’t necessarily put that dentist ahead of the dentist, who has a large amount of student loan. Facing difficulties (ie growing up poor, being an immigrant whose English is not the first language etc) in life actually helps motivate a person to work hard and become successful. Having student loan debt forces a person to budget everything wisely. I’ve seen wealthy kids, who spent 5-6 years just to get a BS degree. These kids somehow got accepted to dental school. When they got out, instead of working right away, they took a couple of months off to travel. They had no motivation to work hard or to start an office because they had very little or no debt.
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Grsduating debt free doesn't necessarily make a dentist ahead?
I disagree. I'd rather be debt free VS $500k under.
But if you are confident it helps, and need more motivation, PM me and you can pay off my debt.
I find the debt oddly demotivational. After 10 years of being a DDS I'll start saving for retirement. That's depressing to me.
PD
I disagree. I'd rather be debt free VS $500k under.
But if you are confident it helps, and need more motivation, PM me and you can pay off my debt.
I find the debt oddly demotivational. After 10 years of being a DDS I'll start saving for retirement. That's depressing to me.
PD
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The dentists, who don’t have student loan, will take out bigger loans to setup an expensive office, to buy a nice house, fancy furniture, nice car etc. The dentists, who have high student loan amount, will be more conservative ie living with the parents, renting a small apt, driving the same used car, starting a low cost office etc. So the total debt between these 2 groups of dentists may be very similar.
A good GP friend of mine graduated from USC with a lot of student loan debt. He could only afford to buy an existing office for $70k. It’s a rundown 1-doctor 1-assistant office. The dental chairs look like barber chairs...no motor, you have to use a lever to recline the chairs. He provides tx to low income undocumented immigrants in downtown LA. He drives the same old Toyota Camry. His business grows because of hard work. The patients love and trust him because of his skills and honesty. He later opened a second office by purchasing an old existing dental building (just a building, no patient). He didn’t hire any handyman; he renovated this office by himself. He let me share this second office with him. The monthly rent that I pay him is enough to cover the monthly mortgage payment for this office building. This GP is now way ahead of many of his colleagues, who graduated debt-free.
You don’t have pay off your student loans first and then start saving. You can save for your retirement while paying back student loans. Instead of paying the IRS, you can put your money in a tax deferred account. With the good income you earn from dentistry, you can save enough to buy a few houses with only 30% down payments and then rent them out. The renters will help you pay the monthly mortgages. And 30 years later when you retire, you will have a nice passive income from the rental properties.
A good GP friend of mine graduated from USC with a lot of student loan debt. He could only afford to buy an existing office for $70k. It’s a rundown 1-doctor 1-assistant office. The dental chairs look like barber chairs...no motor, you have to use a lever to recline the chairs. He provides tx to low income undocumented immigrants in downtown LA. He drives the same old Toyota Camry. His business grows because of hard work. The patients love and trust him because of his skills and honesty. He later opened a second office by purchasing an old existing dental building (just a building, no patient). He didn’t hire any handyman; he renovated this office by himself. He let me share this second office with him. The monthly rent that I pay him is enough to cover the monthly mortgage payment for this office building. This GP is now way ahead of many of his colleagues, who graduated debt-free.
You don’t have pay off your student loans first and then start saving. You can save for your retirement while paying back student loans. Instead of paying the IRS, you can put your money in a tax deferred account. With the good income you earn from dentistry, you can save enough to buy a few houses with only 30% down payments and then rent them out. The renters will help you pay the monthly mortgages. And 30 years later when you retire, you will have a nice passive income from the rental properties.
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"The dentists, who don’t have student loan, will take out bigger loans to setup an expensive office, to buy a nice house, fancy furniture, nice car etc."
They *could* do that...
They have choices.
I'm not trying to offend. I just don't see how the direct cost of repayments combined with the significant opportunity cost of large - after tax - repayments for 10 years or more is anything other than a disadvantage.
If I ONLY invested $36,000 a year for 10 years in a retirement fund and left it until I was 65, I'd be retiring fairly well. Without any further investment. That's opportunity cost. To begin 10 years later makes a large difference to a compounded retirement account.
To assume someone will behave one way due to their lack of debt seems odd.
Anyway, I've made my opinion clear.
Good luck to us all.
PD
They *could* do that...
They have choices.
I'm not trying to offend. I just don't see how the direct cost of repayments combined with the significant opportunity cost of large - after tax - repayments for 10 years or more is anything other than a disadvantage.
If I ONLY invested $36,000 a year for 10 years in a retirement fund and left it until I was 65, I'd be retiring fairly well. Without any further investment. That's opportunity cost. To begin 10 years later makes a large difference to a compounded retirement account.
To assume someone will behave one way due to their lack of debt seems odd.
Anyway, I've made my opinion clear.
Good luck to us all.
PD
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Huh? If anything, people who are willing to acquire a lot of debt have no problem acquiring more debt. We had an OOS student in my class with $550k of debt. What did he do? Left one of the best places to practice in the US (rural South) and moved straight back to San Diego, the most saturated market in America. Dumb. Another OOS girl with $500k of debt. Didn't realize how much she would even owe until second year of school... first thing she did when she graduated? Bought a brand new car. And joined up at Aspen Dental, of course.
Most of the dentist's kids in my class joined the military. I had the NHSC scholarship. Allowed me to max out my Roth IRA the last three years of dental school and in residency. Now I can max my IRA, my 403(b), still save an additional 20%, invest the rest. How? No debt, and didn't inflate my lifestyle when my salary increased. My scholarship saved me $550,000 that I would have paid out over 10 years. Instead, that money is compounding in the market or being saved for the downpayment on a home.
You realize less than 3% of physicians and dentists come from the bottom 20% of family wealth in American, right? Very few dental students "grow up poor." The fact that school costs so much to apply to, much less attend, actually creates an artificial selection bias in which the vast majority of dental students who matriculate are from upper middle-class to upper class families. Those are the types of students, who if their parents don't support them, are not likely to budget, but rather maintain the lifestyle they're used to, irrespective of debt.
Sure, there are some students out there who graduate and are savvy enough to flip a poorly performing practice into a lucrative situation. But that's the outlier. The vast majority of students will associate, and with $350-500k of debt, there is not a tenable argument that graduating debt-free is not, in general, advantageous. And while it may be viable to still buy a solo practice today, I would be wary of planning your future on the current state of dentistry. The numbers coming out of the ADA by Vujicic paint a pretty grim picture for the future of solo private practice. "Skate where the puck is going, not where it has been."
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No, I didn’t realize this. Being surrounded with the dental classmates (shared an apartment with 4 other classmates) and having worked with several dentists (co-workers at the dental chain), who grew up with similar socioeconomic background, I thought it’s more like 50%. I guess things have changed since I graduated many years ago.
You are right. Personal responsibility and hard work are the key ingredients for success. Being irresponsible and keep relying on others for financial help = disaster.
Yeah I can speak to this, i feel like the vast majority of my classmates are ABSURDLY wealthy- and this trend will probably get only worse with the ridiculous tuition hikes.
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Doubt it. People with "absurd wealth" know what a good ROI is. Private school dentistry today is arguably not.
