High transfer GPA, low GPA after -- solutions?

[uvabme]

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[Sundarban1]

Let me first say that I am amazed by the quality of the people on this forum -- it's comforting to know there are people out there who have gone through similair problems and have written about them. And it's even more comforting to know that the people here are so helpful.

So, here's my question...

I transferred to UVA with a 3.83 GPA from a Biomedical Engineering program at VCU. Now, I've got just over a 2.8 undergrad GPA in Biomedical Engineering from the University of Virginia.

I always believed that my hopes for medical school were permanently dashed until I started talking with some of my friends, and then I heard about Georgetown's SMP in Physiology.

I've spent some time reading the posts on this forum, but I'm wondering what I should do to improve my situation? I did not take Organic Chemistry after I realized my GPA would not be competitive, so I need to take that course sequence regardless. How does one progress in my situation?

I'm not averse to a Harvard Extension School kind of thing -- I've got a Job in Boston anyway, so I should be fine... right?

I'm pretty confused here, and would love to get some of your input here... 🙂

1. Did you graduate from your undergraduate institution?
2. If #1 is yes, what is your cume science and non science GPA undergraduate?
3. Is Organic Chemistry the only pre req you need to take? If so, what were your grades in the other 3 pre-reqs?

 

[uvabme]

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[Sundarban1]

I may have slightly miscalculated my science GPA, since I'm bit confused about whether or not my science gpa would include all my biomedical engineering courses

If you run a search you can find the AAMCAS instructions that list out all of the classes that fall under each category to properly eyeball your GPA. From what I am reading biomedical engineering courses are not counted as science courses in your science GPA calculation. I have the one from 2005 and I think all the classes are the same, so you can PM me if you want me to email it to you if you can't find it from a search.

My grades are as follows:...

===Not Taken===
organic chemistry I - Withdrew
organic chemistry II - not taken
organic chemistry II lab = not taken

The great thing is that your grades for all of the other pre-reqs are very good, so I would not re-take them. If I were you I would re-take the lab portion of Ochem I when you do take the class over. I know here at HES you have the option of not taking lab if you've taken it before, but I think it's an easy A, and if you have a low GPA, a well needed boost.

Having said that, you could take Ochem anywhere, I don't think you need a structured program. You can come and take it here at HES (the Ochem teacher is phenomenal) and then apply on your own.

I would really like to be able to get a Masters degree if I continue with my next institution, but I know my wishes are a bit low on the list if I want to try my hand at medical school. I'm interested in doing what I can to salvage this GPA.

Forget a masters if you're looking to get into medical school. Unless you are applying to Osteopathic schools, your Master's GPA will not be factored into your UG GPA, which you need to improve. Stick to either an informal PB and think about taking other (higher level bio) classes to raise your GPA, and if you don't get in that year, think about SMP programs if you have a decent MCAT.

 

[uvabme]

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[microgin]

I didn't actually realize I had done that well on most of the prereqs, but doesn't it make a difference that I took that them at a different university? Does medical school look at that kind of thing? I'm worried they won't really care that I did really well on this things somewhere else....

Both of your schools (VCU and UVA) are four-year accredited universities, so it really doesn't matter where you took your pre-reqs. A lot of people transfer from one university to another. The only case I could see one having to retake pre-reqs is if they started off at a community college and took a course or two there... then you'd probably want to retake. In your case, you are fine.

If I just take Ochem -- I'm not sure I'd really be competitive. I may be able to get A's if I put in the effort, but wouldn't I need to do a lot more to be a competitive candidate for medical school? I'm worried I won't really stand out at all... I read the story of the guy from Duke that graduated 1141/1191 in his class and went through that BU program and ended up going to UPMC. That's an amazing success story -- and if that's something I could do, I would more than happily complete a program where I could more clearly demonstrate that I'm 1) interested in medical school and 2) capable of excelling academically. The one thing about his story was that he scored very high on his MCATs, so I'm not sure his story is that standard ...

As Sundarban said, you've done well in your other pre-reqs, so orgo is all you have left to take as far as those are concerned. Getting an A in a retake of a class that you previously got an A in is not going to impress anyone. Also as he mentioned, if you want to improve your undergrad GPA, then take upper-level undergraduate courses (Biochem, mol bio, immuno, etc.)

I'm only looking at allopathic medical schools, but it's important to me that I go to a medical school that is good. I'm distinctly interested in MD/PhD programs -- especially in bioengineering. And bioengineering and medical school ranks are directly related.

Trust me, all U.S. medical schools are "good". As long as you can get into one of those, you are golden. As far as research interests, etc, you can always set up summer research opportunities at other schools or set up away elective rotations in your 3rd and 4th years. Also, as someone who has applied to MD/PhD programs in the past (unsuccessfully), bear in mind that these programs are even more competitive than a standard MD admission. The people I was interviewing with had MCATs in the mid-30's and superhigh GPAs. That's not to say that only people with great stats get in, but just realize that it will be much harder for someone who doesn't have the best numbers. Perhaps you might want to pose some of your questions to the folks on the MD/PhD forum here on SDN.

 

[uvabme]

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[microgin]

That's very good news. I was a bit confused about how that would work -- I really could do well with that AMCAS guide so I can more accurately calculate the GPA medical schools will see. Do some medical schools have odd quirks in how they calculate this kind of GPA or is it pretty standard?

Send a PM to Sundarban for the guide... I can't seem to find my copy at the moment. Allopathic medical schools do not themselves calculate your GPA. When you complete your AMCAS app, you enter all of your courses and grades, and send copies of all your transcripts to AMCAS. AMCAS then verifies what you have entered with what is on your transcripts, and calculates your GPA. Then AMCAS sends this application on to all of the schools that you have designated that you're applying to. So the calculation is standard among all allopathic schools.

But your suggestions about taking upper level courses strikes me as compelling, but at the same time it seems like it may be an expensive gamble if it's not going to result in anything. Sure, I could go and start taking courses somewhere just to get better grades, but wouldn't a formal program result in something a bit more applicable?

If you wanted to, you could go to a place like HES and take orgo and other upper-level courses and be part of a "formal" program. Which may have some perks (i.e. committee letter if you meet the requirements that they set forth, etc.) The amount by which you will be able to raise your GPA is of course dependent upon how many credits you already have (i.e. getting an A with a 120 cr GPA of 3.3 will not raise your overall GPA by as much as someone who gets an A with a current 60 cr GPA of 3.3).

One of my sincere dilemmas is characterizing my situation...
1) how far from medical school am I -- and how much closer can I get?
2) and if I do get closers, what kinds of schools am I even getting closer to?
3) and I am totally irrational in thinking that I may have a shot at a top 30 medical school?

(I think the third topic is lightly discussed below...)

Honestly, if I could just go to a good medical school, I don't think I really need to get a PhD. Some of my program's best professors have just an MD and produce a lot of very interesting research, and I don't doubt that they are qualified. Ultimately, I'm just trying to slide my way in the door to the very best medical school I might have a chance with -- because the name does matter when you want to do research. And this goes back to my questions up there -- am I being irrational in wanting to go to a top 30 medical school? Has this happened? Does it happen often? And if it does happen, would I even be one of those kinds of cases?

For every school and every GPA/MCAT combo, I'm sure there are stories of stranger things happening. This game is not all about the numbers.... your research experience, letters of recommendation, and EC activities will all play a role in whether or not you get accepted. It is going to be difficult for anyone on this board to give you a more definitive answer than that.

Thanks for the reply man =) :thumbup

BTW, I'm a chica 😛

 

[uvabme]

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[Sundarban1]

...it yields me a necessity of 8 additional courses worth three credits each to find my way back to a 3.0. A 3.0 doesn't seem competitive at all, actually...

Correct, a 3.0 is not truely competative. Keep in mind that your science GPA is going to be higher than your overall and that most science classes are 4 credits, not 3 credits.

Where could I find a better place that designates average GPA and MCAT scores for the applicants?

The book is called Medical School Admissions Requirements (MSAR) and is sold by the AAMC. You can buy a copy right off their website. Every medical school applicant should have a copy.

 

[uvabme]

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[Sundarban1]

(1) I should take organic chemistry during the summer after my 4th year at UVA.

For someone with a low GPA coming into the scheme of things, I find it odd someone would advise you to take any class, especially OChem, over the summer. I would not advise you to go that route.

(2) I should seriously look at OD schools because there are no downsides to them.

I believe you mean DO schools (Osteopathic schools), unless you want to become an opthamologist (eye exams). There are no down sides in that you will still become a "physician" in the end, however there are countless threads and endless debate regarding the preceived "bias" towards osteopathic physicians from the general public and academic institutions. You really need to do your research before you chose to go the osteopathic route.

(3) The average GPA of UVA students getting into medical school is nearly a 3.5, and the lowest average GPA of UVA students getting into any particular medical school is a 3.3 and it's at EVMS. Therefore, my GPA of a 2.8 at UVA is truly horrendous.

Well we know you have to get the GPA up, thats no surprise. How to do that is upto you. Clearly to get anything close to a 3.3 you will need to take upper level courses in addition to Ochem, so I don't see the rush to take Ochem over the summer. There are plenty of schools that will look at the "whole picture" rather than just your GPA. Your main focus should be to raise your GPA as much as possible over the next year or two, take the MCAT and re-assess your situation after that. Look into special master's programs after you take the MCAT, I think there is one in Virginia, no?

(4) My undergrad GPA is pretty much a lost cause, and I should focus on masters work to improve my overall candidacy for medical school.

Again a master's degree will not significantly improve your medical school chances unless A) You are talking special master's programs, for which most you will need to have taken the MCAT by the time you apply or B.) You plan on applying to only Osteopathic (DO) schools, which use graduate school grades as factored into your undergraduate GPA, which Allopathic (MD) schools do not.

(5) I should probably not get a job while I do one of these programs.

This is actually great advice, do not work if you can help it. Take out loans and get used to it.

(6) I should focus very heavily on getting at least 100 hours of volunteer work at a hospital and/or get my EMT-B.

I've always been skeptical about people telling you how many hours of such work you need, what certifications you should get, etc. Why? Because everyone else is doing it too! Your goal is to stand out so find activities that are unique but also allow you to get direct patient contact. There are plenty of opportunities out there.

Is it true that pushing my GPA up to a 3.0 is almost a foolish hope to get into medical school? Bare in mind the stuff I wrote in my first post about how my GPA is being calculated (from VCU and from UVA) -- so my GPA is not actually a 2.8...

Well, what is your GPA? Bear in mind the facts; most medical schools requare at LEAST a 2.8 to even be considered for an interview. The only thing you can do is try your best to do well in the rest of your classes and get your GPA as high as you can in the next year. Also keep in mind that as the reality of your situation sets in, other opportunities to become a physician that you may not have considered now will become more applealing to you in the future (DO schools, Caribbean schools, other healthcare professions, etc.)

The only thing you can do now is try your best to play the game. There are no guarentees but remember no two applicants are the same, so no one can say how you will do in the application process as it is very random given the number of applicants. Once again, do your part to make the best effort possible and let the rest fall into place. Research and always keep in mind the other options open to you and if you are willing to compremise, you will make it.

Good luck.