Hijabs in the OR

[Maxprime]

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I know this is a powder keg, but I have to ask.

First off, I'll preface that I don't claim to be culturally knowledgeable about Islam and/or Arabic culture. My impression is that Hijab is the Arabic word for the Islamic tradition of wearing a scarf over one's head. If I'm wrong, please do correct me.

I've seen women in OR's wearing (what I assume to be) hijabs. Are these sterile? They don't look disposable - but I know some surgeons prefer non-disposable scrub caps that they have washed on site.

 

[nonesuchgirl]

I know this is a powder keg, but I have to ask.

First off, I'll preface that I don't claim to be culturally knowledgeable about Islam and/or Arabic culture. My impression is that Hijab is the Arabic word for the Islamic tradition of wearing a scarf over one's head. If I'm wrong, please do correct me.

I've seen women in OR's wearing (what I assume to be) hijabs. Are these sterile? They don't look disposable - but I know some surgeons prefer non-disposable scrub caps that they have washed on site.

IDK, but that's very interesting. Would hijab require a scarf, or just a covering? IDK IDK IDK.

 

[Maxprime]

IDK, but that's very interesting. Would hijab require a scarf, or just a covering? IDK IDK IDK.

Hopefully someone that knows what they're talking about will chime in. In the meantime, I don't know what the requirements are - but do know that the cap/mask/scrubs do not cover enough.

 

[nonesuchgirl]

Hopefully someone that knows what they're talking about will chime in. In the meantime, I don't know what the requirements are - but do know that the cap/mask/scrubs do not cover enough.

What a PITA to keep sterile, though.

 

[Maxprime]

What a PITA to keep sterile, though.

Well, I wasn't exactly baiting - but I thought it was an interesting issue of religion in the workplace. Personally, if I was the head of the surgical team, I wouldn't let someone bring in a garment they wear all over the place - no matter what the significance.

I think another interesting issue from this is if you're getting surgery. I would try pretty hard to convince my patient to remove non-sterile clothing. I wouldn't withhold treatment, but I would definitely make them aware of the risks. It would be horribly frustrating to spend a few hours in the OR to have a head covering ruin all your work via infection.

Come to think of it - what do they do when a woman in a burka comes into the ER? Do they get clothing shears like the rest?

 

[Maxprime]

No responses - seriously? There was a 50 page thread for Muslim pre-meds and not one can chime in?

 

[Drogba]

Well, I wasn't exactly baiting - but I thought it was an interesting issue of religion in the workplace. Personally, if I was the head of the surgical team, I wouldn't let someone bring in a garment they wear all over the place - no matter what the significance.

I think another interesting issue from this is if you're getting surgery. I would try pretty hard to convince my patient to remove non-sterile clothing. I wouldn't withhold treatment, but I would definitely make them aware of the risks. It would be horribly frustrating to spend a few hours in the OR to have a head covering ruin all your work via infection.

Come to think of it - what do they do when a woman in a burka comes into the ER? Do they get clothing shears like the rest?

Of course! If its urgent that is. I've seen the ER spare people their clothes in certain circumstances, by just taking them off when its possible. Everyone is going to get the shears if its at all preventing proper care. I say this with relative confidence, though I could be wrong since I'm not an EP.

 

[Maxprime]

Of course! If its urgent that is. I've seen the ER spare people their clothes in certain circumstances, by just taking them off when its possible. Everyone is going to get the shears if its at all preventing proper care. I say this with relative confidence, though I could be wrong since I'm not an EP.

Gotcha - thanks.

I wrecked my bike during a race as a kid and, no matter how much I pleaded, those "asses" (I think much higher of them now) cut my favorite skinsuit off. 🙁 I didn't even thank them, kids can be such jerks.

 

[TexanGirl]

Well, I'm Muslim...

Hijab isn't necessarily synonymous with head scarf. It means to "guard your modesty" -- through clothing, actions, what have you -- so you must "veil" yourself both literally and metaphorically. It's perfectly fine to use the word hijab to describe a head scarf.

You wash them how you do other pieces of clothing. Detergent, fabric softener (I like Snuggle's), ya know...

 

[Maxprime]

Well, I'm Muslim...

Hijab isn't necessarily synonymous with head scarf. It means to "guard your modesty" -- through clothing, actions, what have you -- so you must "veil" yourself both literally and metaphorically. It's perfectly fine to use the word hijab to describe a head scarf.

You wash them how you do other pieces of clothing. Detergent, fabric softener (I like Snuggle's), ya know...

Do you know if the hospital washes them? All the OR's I've been in had scrubs that the hospital washed and dispensed that you didn't take out of the hospital (unless you stole them b/c resident pay is so great).

 

[TexanGirl]

Do you know if the hospital washes them? All the OR's I've been in had scrubs that the hospital washed and dispensed that you didn't take out of the hospital (unless you stole them b/c resident pay is so great).

I don't know the specifics of your hospital, sorry.

(Obviously, I have no knowledge on the subject of hijabs in the OR, but if I did, I would divulge)

 

[LikesScience]

Some Muslim women will ask for a female doc, which solves the whole issue of modesty/undressing in front of men.

 

[TexanGirl]

This should be of interest to you:

http://student.bmj.com/search/pdf/05/07/sbmj298.pdf

 

[Maxprime]

Some Muslim women will ask for a female doc, which solves the whole issue of modesty/undressing in front of men.

This should be of interest to you:

http://student.bmj.com/search/pdf/05/07/sbmj298.pdf

Thanks to both of you for the responses & info.

 

[barto123]

just curious, for the women who wear the full head covering so that only their eyes are showing, do they have to take that off when they get their driver's licence?

 

[DrMidlife]

OR laundry is just laundry, and clothing isn't sterile no matter who launders it. There are plenty of pieces of clothing in the OR that aren't washed on site. The fancy patterned caps that folks wear don't get laundered by the hospital (or the owners would never see them again). And that's before we get into long t-shirts under scrubs, socks, shoes, etc. The anesthesiologist's sudoku book isn't sterile either.

An average hijab scarf would be a lot more attractive than some of the Old Mother Hubbard caps that the nurses wear. Bleah.

 

[Maxprime]

just curious, for the women who wear the full head covering so that only their eyes are showing, do they have to take that off when they get their driver's licence?

Highly doubtful - while I think it's BS that I have to take my baseball cap off for the picture, I'm also pretty confident that the fear of god will stop them from leaving their hat at home.

 

[Maxprime]

OR laundry is just laundry, and clothing isn't sterile no matter who launders it. There are plenty of pieces of clothing in the OR that aren't washed on site. The fancy patterned caps that folks wear don't get laundered by the hospital (or the owners would never see them again). And that's before we get into long t-shirts under scrubs, socks, shoes, etc. The anesthesiologist's sudoku book isn't sterile either.

An average hijab scarf would be a lot more attractive than some of the Old Mother Hubbard caps that the nurses wear. Bleah.

I didn't know this, but good to know. 😆 I forgot about the gasman's newspaper.

Well that pretty easily answers my question. Thanks

 

[kami333]

Highly doubtful - while I think it's BS that I have to take my baseball cap off for the picture, I'm also pretty confident that the fear of god will stop them from leaving their hat at home.

There was a case in Florida a couple years ago and the courts sided with the DMV, faces have to be shown. I also believe that Alabama ruled the other way, that it was acceptable. This was a little after 9/11 so I don't know what the final outcome was/will be after appeals, haven't really seen coverage of it recently.

 

[Mx300]

first off I'm muslim and I've wondered about how I'm going to handle the hijab in the OR issue. So far my plan is to buy a stack of them, have them cleaned and change into them before I go into the OR. I dont know if this will work but I seriously doubt that covering your head in the OR would be a major issue. I would love to know how other muslims have handled this issue.

 

[pakbabydoll]

Hijab is just modesty. Hair has to be covered, body parts except hands and feet.
scrubs are loose so they take care of the body. A surgical cap would take care of the hair. If a women wears scarves, I am sure the hospital makes sure its sterile.


On another note, covering the whole face except eyes is not part of the religion. The women who do it, just do it I don't know why. So I don't think there is a problem with the license picture.
Where my mom work they use transparent caps, so she is allowed to have her own dark cap and then she just wears the transparent one over it. However most hospitals use blue/green surgical caps.

 

[Beeef]

When I read the thread title I thought you were referring to a brand of pork rinds.

 

[solumanculver]

Hijab is just modesty. Hair has to be covered, body parts except hands and feet.
scrubs are loose so they take care of the body. A surgical cap would take care of the hair. If a women wears scarves, I am sure the hospital makes sure its sterile.

Yeah, this is really the salient point here. There's nothing special about the style of the hijab itself... as long as the hair is covered.

Well I'm not a Muslim, but I lived in Yemen for year, which is a pretty conservative Islamic country. What's kind of funny is that nurses there wore their black dress (called a Balto in Yemen, though I think it's usually called abbaya in other countries) with a white lab coat over it. It actually looked really odd and frightening in a way. Of course they also had their faces covered as well, which is the custom in the capitol. I actually avoided that hospital, though, as it wasn't really that sanitary of a place.

 

[farks23]

Read the post below:

 

[farks23]

OR laundry is just laundry, and clothing isn't sterile no matter who launders it. There are plenty of pieces of clothing in the OR that aren't washed on site. The fancy patterned caps that folks wear don't get laundered by the hospital (or the owners would never see them again). And that's before we get into long t-shirts under scrubs, socks, shoes, etc. The anesthesiologist's sudoku book isn't sterile either.

An average hijab scarf would be a lot more attractive than some of the Old Mother Hubbard caps that the nurses wear. Bleah.

This drives the point home!

Many people bring in coverings for their hair, and whether it is star studded, or opaque with color, it is serving a similar service as a surgical head covering. Sterile Scrubs? You mean the pre-packaged gown that covers scrubs? Either way, hijabs or head coverings are simple to come by and if one carries the title of nurse, doctor, technician or any OR post, I am sure they abide by the regulations of safety and sterility.

Its a matter a Hospital Administrator could speak on with more weight, but this is not FRANCE, freedom of expression and belief is accounted for in the workplace.

Thus, appropriate accomodations are made which abide and follow regulations and standards...other wise the individuals you see wearing such articles probably would not be employed...👍

 

[cyclingmo]

just curious, for the women who wear the full head covering so that only their eyes are showing, do they have to take that off when they get their driver's licence?

In Texas at least, the face needs to show including the ears. The rest of the head can remain covered tho. I have relatives who wear Hijab and thats what they had to do for DL and passport pictures.

 

[MattD]

Since when are surgical masks, scrubs, and caps sterile? Every time I've been in the OR the scrubs were folded on a shelf in the dressing room, and I pulled a mask and haircap out of a community box in the scrub room. There's nothing sterile about it, and I don't see why you couldn't use a non-disposable head covering. I've seen surgeons drop their mask to around their neck between cases then tie it back up for the next go-round, which is obviously not maintaining any semblance of sterility.

Now obviously you don't want to carry infectious residue around from patient to patient, which is the point of using disposables. The idea that these things are sterile though is just silly. The only things that are sterile (clothing wise) is the surgical gown and the sterile gloves. These gloves are individually packaged in sterile packaging, and you don't get your gown until you enter the OR (don't know exactly how they're processed, but they don't go through standard hospital laundry).

 

[smq123]

OR laundry is just laundry, and clothing isn't sterile no matter who launders it. There are plenty of pieces of clothing in the OR that aren't washed on site. The fancy patterned caps that folks wear don't get laundered by the hospital (or the owners would never see them again). And that's before we get into long t-shirts under scrubs, socks, shoes, etc. The anesthesiologist's sudoku book isn't sterile either.

This drives the point home!

Many people bring in coverings for their hair, and whether it is star studded, or opaque with color, it is serving a similar service as a surgical head covering. Sterile Scrubs? You mean the pre-packaged gown that covers scrubs? Either way, hijabs or head coverings are simple to come by and if one carries the title of nurse, doctor, technician or any OR post, I am sure they abide by the regulations of safety and sterility.

Thus, appropriate accomodations are made which abide and follow regulations and standards...other wise the individuals you see wearing such articles probably would not be employed...👍

No, neither of you seem to really understand how most ORs are run.

What the anesthesiologists do is up to them. They can wear cloth, non-disposable scrub caps that they brought in from the outside, because they're not standing next to the patient during the operation. They're either at the patient's feet (in an ENT case) or behind a sterile drape.

Just because the anesthesiologist's newspaper "isn't sterile" doesn't mean squat for you, the med student on your surgery rotation, or for you, the surgical resident. He's hiding behind a sterile drape - sterility doesn't matter. But you're on the sterile side of the drape, and it DOES matter.

What the surgeons wear DOES matter. If you're operating, you should not wear a cloth cap. If you do, it should be covered by a disposable cap that is provided by the hospital.

IF YOU ARE ENTERING THE OR, YOU SHOULD NOT - I repeat, NOT - BE WEARING A LONG-SLEEVED SHIRT UNDER YOUR SCRUBS!!! It is NOT sterile technique, and you will get thrown out of the OR to go change. Med students have gotten thrown out for wearing t-shirts/tank tops under their scrubs.

YOU SHOULD ALSO NOT WEAR SCRUBS STOLEN FROM AN OUTSIDE HOSPITAL. Hospitals issue scrubs that are only one color. Anybody wearing scrubs of a different color (i.e. were clearly gotten from outside the hospital) will be told to leave the OR and go change - no exceptions. Not even for attendings!

There are no such things as "sterile scrubs." Yes, you technically cover everything up with a sterile gown, but still, scrubs should not be taken out of the hospital. No, I know that everyone takes their scrubs outside of the hospital. But what your resident can get away with, and what you can get away with, are 2 different things.

OP - I honestly have no idea what they would do about someone who insisted (for religious reasons) on wearing a scarf in the OR. What would most likely happen is that the charge nurse would have to contact the company that provides the hospital with scrubs. That company would have to provide head coverings (made of the same material as the scrubs) for that individual. That would be the only head covering "allowed" in the OR. I'm guessing.

 

[smq123]

Since when are surgical masks, scrubs, and caps sterile? Every time I've been in the OR the scrubs were folded on a shelf in the dressing room, and I pulled a mask and haircap out of a community box in the scrub room. There's nothing sterile about it, and I don't see why you couldn't use a non-disposable head covering. I've seen surgeons drop their mask to around their neck between cases then tie it back up for the next go-round, which is obviously not maintaining any semblance of sterility.

Now obviously you don't want to carry infectious residue around from patient to patient, which is the point of using disposables. The idea that these things are sterile though is just silly. The only things that are sterile (clothing wise) is the surgical gown and the sterile gloves. These gloves are individually packaged in sterile packaging, and you don't get your gown until you enter the OR (don't know exactly how they're processed, but they don't go through standard hospital laundry).

Scrubs, masks, and haircaps are NOT sterile. Everyone knows that. That's why, when you're scrubbing in for a case, you will see people awkwardly holding their arms away from their body - if you accidentally touch your scrubs with your clean arms, you have contaminated yourself and must rescrub.

A common rookie mistake is not putting on your mask until AFTER you've scrubbed. Or, halfway through the operation, reaching up to scratch your nose or re-adjust your haircap. That also contaminates you.

You guys are confusing "clean" with "sterile." Scrubs (which must stay in the hospital) are considered "clean." They're definitely not sterile, but that doesn't mean that you can wear whatever you want over your scrubs (or under them, for that matter).

And yes, you should change masks between cases. People often don't, but that's often not a strictly enforced rule. But wearing a burka/headscarf (that clearly came from outside the hospital) would probably be a huge problem.

 

[MattD]

Scrubs, masks, and haircaps are NOT sterile. Everyone knows that. That's why, when you're scrubbing in for a case, you will see people awkwardly holding their arms away from their body - if you accidentally touch your scrubs with your clean arms, you have contaminated yourself and must rescrub.

A common rookie mistake is not putting on your mask until AFTER you've scrubbed. Or, halfway through the operation, reaching up to scratch your nose or re-adjust your haircap. That also contaminates you.

You guys are confusing "clean" with "sterile." Scrubs (which must stay in the hospital) are considered "clean." They're definitely not sterile, but that doesn't mean that you can wear whatever you want over your scrubs (or under them, for that matter).

And yes, you should change masks between cases. People often don't, but that's often not a strictly enforced rule. But wearing a burka/headscarf (that clearly came from outside the hospital) would probably be a huge problem.

I said the exact same thing you did. Yet I'm confused? Interesting. Almost Freudian, in fact! 🙂

 

[smq123]

Since when are surgical masks, scrubs, and caps sterile? Every time I've been in the OR the scrubs were folded on a shelf in the dressing room, and I pulled a mask and haircap out of a community box in the scrub room. There's nothing sterile about it, and I don't see why you couldn't use a non-disposable head covering. I've seen surgeons drop their mask to around their neck between cases then tie it back up for the next go-round, which is obviously not maintaining any semblance of sterility.

Now obviously you don't want to carry infectious residue around from patient to patient, which is the point of using disposables. The idea that these things are sterile though is just silly. The only things that are sterile (clothing wise) is the surgical gown and the sterile gloves. These gloves are individually packaged in sterile packaging, and you don't get your gown until you enter the OR (don't know exactly how they're processed, but they don't go through standard hospital laundry).

I said the exact same thing you did. Yet I'm confused? Interesting. Almost Freudian, in fact! 🙂

Yes, we said similar things. But the key difference is that you said - "I don't see why you couldn't use a non-disposable head covering."

Tell that to a charge nurse (particularly if she's having a bad day) and prepare to get inundated with 6 answers.

The first answer you'll hear is - "No clothes that were worn outside the hospital can be worn in the OR." This will be followed by a string of other reasons.

Do all of these answers make sense? No - actually, I'd be impressed if any of them made sense. But do I follow them blindly - yes! because I don't want to get sent home to change.

 

[MattD]

Yes, we said similar things. But the key difference is that you said - "I don't see why you couldn't use a non-disposable head covering."

Tell that to a charge nurse (particularly if she's having a bad day) and prepare to get inundated with 6 answers.

The first answer you'll hear is - "No clothes that were worn outside the hospital can be worn in the OR." This will be followed by a string of other reasons.

Do all of these answers make sense? No - actually, I'd be impressed if any of them made sense. But do I follow them blindly - yes! because I don't want to get sent home to change.

I didn't say wear the cap you used to soak up gin from the subway seat on the way in to work 🙂 I'm just saying it may be possible to have an arrangement by which you have a cap at work dedicated to your OR time. I have no idea what the laundering arrangements they would require may be. On a similar non-disposable clothing vein, people don't use disposable eyeglasses, not do they get a disinfectant dip or trip through the autoclave between cases. Sure, eyeglasses aren't the same as blood-and-pus soaked headscarves, but it's reasonable to assume a solution to the conflict could be found. It would certainly be an issue that would have to be worked out with the individual institution though, and anyone who thinks they may face this situation should be prepared to ask about it. I'd imagine that at any teaching institution, you wouldn't be the first person to bring it up, and there'll likely already be a policy in place.

 

[smq123]

I didn't say wear the cap you used to soak up gin from the subway seat on the way in to work 🙂 I'm just saying it may be possible to have an arrangement by which you have a cap at work dedicated to your OR time. I have no idea what the laundering arrangements they would require may be. On a similar non-disposable clothing vein, people don't use disposable eyeglasses, not do they get a disinfectant dip or trip through the autoclave between cases. Sure, eyeglasses aren't the same as blood-and-pus soaked headscarves, but it's reasonable to assume a solution to the conflict could be found. It would certainly be an issue that would have to be worked out with the individual institution though, and anyone who thinks they may face this situation should be prepared to ask about it. I'd imagine that at any teaching institution, you wouldn't be the first person to bring it up, and there'll likely already be a policy in place.

I once wore my spotlessly clean white coat (freshly laundered) into the OR by accident. The nurse practically ripped my head off. Really - no outside clothes. Some doctors and nurses can push it by wearing cloth scrub caps, but even that is pushing it. Even having a "cloth dedicated to OR time" isn't enough, particularly something as big as a headscarf.

Eyeglasses should be covered by disposable goggles, or masks with face shields attached. And glasses (which are a hard surface, unlike cloth hats) don't pose the same "dangers of collecting and shedding bacteria." In any case, they're not enough protection if there were a blood vessel spurting blood or if the patient happened to hurl all over you as they were being extubated. (It happens.)

Obviously, the more you think about the OR rules, the less they make sense. But, like I said, if you don't follow them, you're creating more hassle than it's really worth. You'd probably have to talk to the people who provide your hospital with scrubs to see what you could do, if you really needed to wear a headscarf in the OR.

 

[shevie]

I wish someone could explain why muslim women who wear Hijabs cannot just wear a regular surgical cap while in the OR. If the idea is to be modest and cover your hair, as long as all their hair is safely tucked under the cap, I dont see what the problem is. Am I missing something? Im not trying to be insensitive, just understand. Its not about the scarf itself, its about modesty, so I just dont get the issue.

 

[pakbabydoll]

I wish someone could explain why muslim women who wear Hijabs cannot just wear a regular surgical cap while in the OR. If the idea is to be modest and cover your hair, as long as all their hair is safely tucked under the cap, I dont see what the problem is. Am I missing something? Im not trying to be insensitive, just understand. Its not about the scarf itself, its about modesty, so I just dont get the issue.

I agree. my mom wears her hijab under her cap, but she only does it because our hospital uses transparent caps.
I guess changing part might be hard for some, its hard to find a place where there are no guys present.

I once wore my spotlessly clean white coat (freshly laundered) into the OR by accident. The nurse practically ripped my head off. Really - no outside clothes

Really? I once walked in while they were getting ready to do a case. I had to bring them started kits and anes packets and I walked in with my scrubs, I did have a cap on and those booty shoes things. The nurse did not say anything. They had not started yet, so maybe thats why.

 

[shevie]

I agree. my mom wears her hijab under her cap, but she only does it because our hospital uses transparent caps.
I guess changing part might be hard for some, its hard to find a place where there are no guys present.

Orthodox Jewish women also cover their hair, but often times with hats or wigs, not scarves necessarily. I know many orthodox jewish nurses and doctors, and ive asked quite a few what they do, they usually just change into a surgical cap in a bathroom stall before surgery. I was scared that id get banned or something for my comment. Glad to see that there are muslims out there who dont think im insane or, worse, insensitive, by suggesting that hair could be covered with a surgical cap!

 

[Jolie South]

Orthodox Jewish women also cover their hair, but often times with hats or wigs, not scarves necessarily. I know many orthodox jewish nurses and doctors, and ive asked quite a few what they do, they usually just change into a surgical cap in a bathroom stall before surgery. I was scared that id get banned or something for my comment. Glad to see that there are muslims out there who dont think im insane or, worse, insensitive, by suggesting that hair could be covered with a surgical cap!

I was thinking the same thing. I've never rotated through an OR, but I would imagine that all of your hair would need to be covered to keep it from falling into the sterile field.

 

[smq123]

Really? I once walked in while they were getting ready to do a case. I had to bring them started kits and anes packets and I walked in with my scrubs, I did have a cap on and those booty shoes things. The nurse did not say anything. They had not started yet, so maybe thats why.

What else were you wearing besides scrubs, a cap, and shoe covers?

If you weren't wearing a mask, it depends on what kind of case. If there are sterile objects that are uncovered and are lying out in the open, you should wear a mask, and the nurse should have told you.

Maybe they're just nicer at your hospital. Or else they knew that you were pre-med.

 

[smq123]

I was thinking the same thing. I've never rotated through an OR, but I would imagine that all of your hair would need to be covered to keep it from falling into the sterile field.

It does. Which makes for a fun acrobatic exercise if your cap starts slipping off halfway through the case. (Usually a nurse needs to pull you aside and stuff the hair back underneath. It's not fun.)

 

[KeyzerSoze]

Orthodox Jewish women also cover their hair, but often times with hats or wigs, not scarves necessarily. I know many orthodox jewish nurses and doctors, and ive asked quite a few what they do, they usually just change into a surgical cap in a bathroom stall before surgery. I was scared that id get banned or something for my comment. Glad to see that there are muslims out there who dont think im insane or, worse, insensitive, by suggesting that hair could be covered with a surgical cap!

While most frum Jewish women would be fine with wearing a surgical cap, you can't extrapolate to members of a different religion who have different religious requirements. Many Muslim women consider it obligatory to wear a scarf which leaves only their face uncovered, and a surgical cap would not be acceptable to them. Since it wouldn't seem to be inherently problematic to wear a headscarf in the OR, hospitals should try to find ways to allow it which don't compromise the sterility of the OR.

 

[shevie]

While most frum Jewish women would be fine with wearing a surgical cap, you can't extrapolate to members of a different religion who have different religious requirements.

I wasnt extrapolating anything:

Hijab isn't necessarily synonymous with head scarf. It means to "guard your modesty" -- through clothing, actions, what have you -- so you must "veil" yourself both literally and metaphorically.

To me, that sounds pretty similar to the Jewish obligation of "tznius." Am I wrong? TexanGirl IS muslim, and she clearly states that its not a "head scarf" that necessarily is required, just to "veil" yourself and be modest in your dress.

Many Muslim women consider it obligatory to wear a scarf which leaves only their face uncovered, and a surgical cap would not be acceptable to them.

And likewise, there are many Jewish women (myself included) who consider it obligatory to wear skirts and not pants. Does that mean I am entitled to wear a skirt into the OR? Absolutely not. And many of my friends in medical and dental school took their scrubs to a tailor and had "scrubs-skirts" made, (im not kidding) and wear SKIRTS in Anatomy or later on during rotations. But these are not allowed under any circumstances in the OR.
Many Jews consider it obligatory to not write, talk on the phone, drive, use the computer, etc etc etc, on Saturday, and while working on Saturday is not "acceptable" for Orthodox Jews, a major "exception" is made in the case of medical students and physicians "working" on Saturday.
Trust me, I dont want to compromise any part of my religion either when I start school, but I know that there are some times and places where I will have to do things that If i were an stock broker, a teacher, or a lawyer, I wouldn't have to. It comes with the job. you do everything you can to not "sacrifice" your beliefs, but, sometimes you have to make personal compromises you otherwise wouldn't make (in my case, answering pages and potentially working on Saturdays and jewish holidays, wearing pants, covering my hair with a semi-translucent blue thing in the OR), in order to ensure patient patient care is not compromised.

Since it wouldn't seem to be inherently problematic to wear a headscarf in the OR, hospitals should try to find ways to allow it which don't compromise the sterility of the OR.

Correct me if im wrong, but it IS pretty much "inherently problematic" to wear a headscarf in the OR. It DOES absolutely compromise the sterile field. That is precisely the problem. Wearing it when seeing pts on rounds is not problematic at all. But if you were having brain surgery, would you want the woman standing over you to be wearing something on her head that she washed at home with tide, or something that the hospital "guarantees" is sterile and forces everyone to wear?

 

[KeyzerSoze]

I wasnt extrapolating anything:

To me, that sounds pretty similar to the Jewish obligation of "tznius." Am I wrong? TexanGirl IS muslim, and she clearly states that its not a "head scarf" that necessarily is required, just to "veil" yourself and be modest in your dress.

Sure it's similar, but people have different interpretations of their religion's modesty requirements, even within one religion. I'm sure that there are some Muslims who would interpret the requirements with varying degrees of stringency, just as in the Jewish community.

And likewise, there are many Jewish women (myself included) who consider it obligatory to wear skirts and not pants. Does that mean I am entitled to wear a skirt into the OR? Absolutely not. And many of my friends in medical and dental school took their scrubs to a tailor and had "scrubs-skirts" made, (im not kidding) and wear SKIRTS in Anatomy or later on during rotations. But these are not allowed under any circumstances in the OR.

If there is an intrinsic reason why wearing a scrub skirt over pants is unsafe in the OR, you are correct. Otherwise, hospitals should have scrub skirts available for those who want to wear them.

Many Jews consider it obligatory to not write, talk on the phone, drive, use the computer, etc etc etc, on Saturday, and while working on Saturday is not "acceptable" for Orthodox Jews, a major "exception" is made in the case of medical students and physicians "working" on Saturday.
Trust me, I dont want to compromise any part of my religion either when I start school, but I know that there are some times and places where I will have to do things that If i were an stock broker, a teacher, or a lawyer, I wouldn't have to. It comes with the job. you do everything you can to not "sacrifice" your beliefs, but, sometimes you have to make personal compromises you otherwise wouldn't make (in my case, answering pages and potentially working on Saturdays and jewish holidays, wearing pants, covering my hair with a semi-translucent blue thing in the OR), in order to ensure patient patient care is not compromised.

That's your personal choice, but I think we agree that it makes sense to allow people the maximum religious freedom as long as it doesn't infringe on patient care or on the rights of other staff. We may disagree on what constitutes an infringement, though.

Correct me if im wrong, but it IS pretty much "inherently problematic" to wear a headscarf in the OR. It DOES absolutely compromise the sterile field. That is precisely the problem. Wearing it when seeing pts on rounds is not problematic at all. But if you were having brain surgery, would you want the woman standing over you to be wearing something on her head that she washed at home with tide, or something that the hospital "guarantees" is sterile and forces everyone to wear?

I think you misunderstood me; I wasn't suggesting that people should be allowed to wear their street clothes into the OR. I'm not that familiar with Muslim head scarfs, but I assume they're basically a big square or rectangle of material folded into a specific shape (maybe one of the Muslim readers could comment on this). If that's what they are, it would be incredibly easy for OR's to provide something to serve this purpose, wouldn't it?

 

[shevie]

Sure it's similar, but people have different interpretations of their religion's modesty requirements, even within one religion. I'm sure that there are some Muslims who would interpret the requirements with varying degrees of stringency, just as in the Jewish community.

I understand that different people of diff religions interpret modesty differently, but JCAHO doesnt really care if youre a fundamentalist christian, muslim or jew, seven-day advensist, baptist, episcopalian, or an athiest. Rules are rules. Guidelines in the OR with regard to surgical attire and keeping the operating suite sterile, apply to everyone, and are there in order to protect patients. Im very religious and have major reservations about wearing pants, even if only in the OR, but its just a choice I have to make. I can fail my rotation, or I can do something that for religious reasons I'm very reluctant to do.
The Israeli medical schools tend to be less strict with regard to the skirt thing (larger percentage of students there are Orthodox Jewish Females), and I dont mean this in some bad, Anti-Muslim way AT ALL (because trust me, I'm not!! I have muslim friends at work and theyre cool!!), so PLEASE PLEASE do not start attacking me. These are the rules in America. I bet there are European schools associated w/ European Hospitals where they are less stringent due to a larger percentage of Female Muslim Students (England maybe? lost of Muslims there...India? Pakistan? Jordan? Syria? Lebanon? etc?) If someone is SO ABSOLUTELY ADAMANT about wearing hijabs ONLY and would, under no circumstances, consider wearing a surgical cap in the OR, they should probably consider some foreign schools.

If there is an intrinsic reason why wearing a scrub skirt over pants is unsafe in the OR, you are correct. Otherwise, hospitals should have scrub skirts available for those who want to wear them.

The reason its "unsafe" is because its unsterile, and the reasons they dont have them available are probably because a) its not worth the investment b) a certain uniformity is desired in the OR. I highly doubt Female Orthodox Jewish Medical Students constitute more than 1/2 or 1% of the an average class. As wonderful as it would be (for me at least), if they were available, I know they wont be, and its something I don't let bother me...its just not something that is worth making the fight for.

I think you misunderstood me; I wasn't suggesting that people should be allowed to wear their street clothes into the OR. I'm not that familiar with Muslim head scarfs, but I assume they're basically a big square or rectangle of material folded into a specific shape (maybe one of the Muslim readers could comment on this). If that's what they are, it would be incredibly easy for OR's to provide something to serve this purpose, wouldn't it?

That would be incredibly easy - i mean why cant someone just take a pair of pants and actually just cut through one of the pant legs and use that as a head scarf (seriously)?? Why would a/o have a problem w/ that, if they use sterile scrubs and sterile scissors? Or even easier-those blue towels that they use in the OR-i am NOT joking. Its shaped like a scarf...why not let people who want to USE it as one??? I think the problem with that (in the eyes of some hospital administrator, JCAHO, OSHA, etc) would be the lack of uniformity. The only way i could see wearing a hijab in the OR being done is actually stuffing it under a surgical cap. That wouldnt bother anyone (im assuming), and doesnt really break with protocol (as much).

 

[KeyzerSoze]

In case you missed it, I'm not Muslim, I'm an Orthodox Jew.

Again, I understand that there are complex issues involved here. While it's clear to me that people's religious freedom should be tolerated, it's not fair to make anyone pay for someone else's religion. Thus, if it would cost more to have skirts or head coverings available, the people who want to use them could for it.

I don't understand why "uniformity" is such a big issue, especially if everything is made out of the same material. A skirt isn't all that conspicuous, and if a head covering is covered by a surgical cap it's not such a big deal either.

 

[shevie]

In case you missed it, I'm not Muslim, I'm an Orthodox Jew.

Didnt miss that. using the word "frum" was a dead giveaway.

I don't understand why "uniformity" is such a big issue, especially if everything is made out of the same material. A skirt isn't all that conspicuous, and if a head covering is covered by a surgical cap it's not such a big deal either.

In theory i totally agree with you. But its just not worth fighting and trying to get it to happen.

 

[pakbabydoll]

What else were you wearing besides scrubs, a cap, and shoe covers?

If you weren't wearing a mask, it depends on what kind of case. If there are sterile objects that are uncovered and are lying out in the open, you should wear a mask, and the nurse should have told you.

Maybe they're just nicer at your hospital. Or else they knew that you were pre-med.

I work there, so it has nothing to do with being a pre-med or not. Some nurses are nice, some are not. once I went to open heart recovery to give them a 3x neo drip ( they had a code) I went in and the nurse went crazy that I was not wearing a cap.

 

[smq123]

Really? I once walked in while they were getting ready to do a case. I had to bring them started kits and anes packets and I walked in with my scrubs, I did have a cap on and those booty shoes things. The nurse did not say anything. They had not started yet, so maybe thats why.

It also depends on the case. If they were doing a case that involves anything in the mouth, then masks are not obligatory. (Because the mouth is full of bacteria anyway, so nothing stays sterile.) If they were removing tonsils, for instance, then you could get away without wearing a mask, especially if you aren't operating.

I work there, so it has nothing to do with being a pre-med or not. Some nurses are nice, some are not. once I went to open heart recovery to give them a 3x neo drip ( they had a code) I went in and the nurse went crazy that I was not wearing a cap.

I asked because I think nurses were nicer to me when they knew I was pre-med. Now, for some nurses, when I say that I'm a 3rd year med student, I feel like that's like putting a huge bulls-eye sign on my forehead.

 

[pakbabydoll]

It also depends on the case. If they were doing a case that involves anything in the mouth, then masks are not obligatory. (Because the mouth is full of bacteria anyway, so nothing stays sterile.) If they were removing tonsils, for instance, then you could get away without wearing a mask, especially if you aren't operating.

Maybe, I don't really know.

Do they care if you don't dress up to go in OB- Anes?

 

[smq123]

Maybe, I don't really know.

Do they care if you don't dress up to go in OB- Anes?

Do you mean as an anesthesiologist in an c-section?

It's still an OR, and it's still an operation. Yes, even the anesthesiologists in a c-section need to wear scrubs, a cap, and a mask.

 

[pakbabydoll]

Do you mean as an anesthesiologist in an c-section?

It's still an OR, and it's still an operation. Yes, even the anesthesiologists in a c-section need to wear scrubs, a cap, and a mask.

See thats not how it is at our hospital. I go to OB's OR like 2-3 times a day when I work and we are only required to wear caps and shoe coverings. No masks necessary. We are a magnet hospital btw, its weird..