Hiring anesthesiologist

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I hardly think that "everyone is opening one."

Ah, you're one of those people that takes everything literally. My mistake. Feel free to substitute "and there are many more ketamine clinics now than there were 5 years ago" for "everybody is opening one."

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Our clinic essentially generates an FTE's worth of revenue. It's basically just another location for us - no different than say, staffing 1 more room at an ASC with a strong payer mix. We view it more as diversification, than a get rich quick scheme.
 
Ah, you're one of those people that takes everything literally. My mistake. Feel free to substitute "and there are many more ketamine clinics now than there were 5 years ago" for "everybody is opening one."

As others have pointed out there are only a handful of clinics in ritzy places.
Our clinic essentially generates an FTE's worth of revenue. It's basically just another location for us - no different than say, staffing 1 more room at an ASC with a strong payer mix. We view it more as diversification, than a get rich quick scheme.

See there you go!
Btw - what is that on your avator picture? I can't quite make it out.
 
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We have a ketamine clinic of sorts in our VA. First VA in the country to offer it, actually. We've done nearly a thousand cases at this point without any medical events, and this in a sicker-than-average population. A poster above mentioned the prospect of a physician monitoring several cases at once, in parallel, which may be the key to profitability. We actually fill out an anesthesia record for these cases (we don't bill, but the times are used for workload tracking/staff planning purposes, so there's an Anesthesia Start and End time). We tend to hand off the cases mid-infusion to a PACU nurse so we can start the next one. Again, since we're not billing, we have just sorta kept doing it this way for efficiency. Out in the world, I wondered how it would look to have one clinician responsible for multiple patients simultaneously. From a safety perspective, I agree it would seem very safe to me to have 3-4 of these going at once; the doses are really very small. But from a regulatory standpoint, I wouldn't think you could be documenting care for them simultaneously.
 
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I respectfully disagree with you - and this is how it works in this type of setting.
Patient with depression with diagnosis of depression comes to me, gets ketamine injection. I do ketamine injection, they do fine. Patient 2 months later commits suicide bc of depressive symptoms. Nothing that i did would make me responsible. Patient has a psychiatrist treating them for this. That's how it works. Where on earth do you think that physicians are on the hook for things that are outside the scope of their practice?

In the medispa case above you are simply incorrect. They have no duty to treat me. They are simply doing a procedure, that's it. They have no responsibility to treat me. The PA is "supervised" by a physician - the clinic is owned by a FM and a surgeon I believe. There is no work up no diagnosis.
To pretend that they would somehow diagnose, work up is absurd. I don't think you have enough expeirnece with this stuff, no offense.
There is no such thing as immunity for liability just because you're "simply doing a procedure". That's my only point, and if you believe differently you are wrong.

In your particular endeavor here, you are likely correct in that you won't be sued if the ketamine doesn't work and the depressed patient kills themselves. You aren't likely to lose a lawsuit for treatment failure so long as you've done your informed consent homework.
 
There is no such thing as immunity for liability just because you're "simply doing a procedure". That's my only point, and if you believe differently you are wrong.

In your particular endeavor here, you are likely correct in that you won't be sued if the ketamine doesn't work and the depressed patient kills themselves. You aren't likely to lose a lawsuit for treatment failure so long as you've done your informed consent homework.

perhaps im not being clear, not sure. The point is the following - a ketamine clinic is just that - a ketamine clinic. it's not a diagnostic clinic, just like if u go to a medi spa "supervised" by a physician where u get a prp injection for ur hair loss, they are not doing work up. sure if they insert the needle into ur brain somehow, sure they'll get sued. but if u have lupus for example and they dont say hey! u have lupus that's why u r losing ur hair or whatever, they won't get sued - their role is not to diagnose u.
my role in a ketamine clinic is not to diagnose patients - they are supposed to have a treating doctor - psych, pain doctor, whatever managing their care - i am not there to treat them outside that capacity. sure if i give the patient the wrong dose, if they have an adverse effect bc i did something wrong, etc sure i can besued.
 
OP,

I just want to throw out my 2 cents, which is obviously worth less than that. It seems every time I check out this message board, I see you constantly responding, which tells me you have a lot of time on your hands. Not sure if that is a good or bad thing, but from what I can gather (and no, I have definitely not read all the posts nor do I plan to do so) is that you have these huge aspirations of being a mutli-millionaire entrepreneur. I'd say 99% of physicians should stick to what they studied long and hard to do, and that is practice medicine. Again, from what little I've gathered, it seems you lack in business knowledge and experience.

If in fact there are throngs of people who can't wait to shell out their AMEX gold cards to pay $800 a session to cure their depression, then someone would've done this yesterday in your rich suburbs.

Lastly, you came here acting like you're trying to do a good deed and enlist the great anesthesiologists of the Chicagoland area to help you and pay them handsomely, then again, my point is well taken. The position you speak of does not require an anesthesiologist and your profit margins will go from meh to really bad,

I do not mean this to be harsh or bash you and I'd love it if you came back 5 years from now standing in front of your Bentley about to board your private jet, but I see this ending very badly for you. Stick to medicine and enjoy being in the top 2%.

Sincerely,
The other Gaseous
 
We have a ketamine clinic of sorts in our VA. First VA in the country to offer it, actually. We've done nearly a thousand cases at this point without any medical events, and this in a sicker-than-average population. A poster above mentioned the prospect of a physician monitoring several cases at once, in parallel, which may be the key to profitability. We actually fill out an anesthesia record for these cases (we don't bill, but the times are used for workload tracking/staff planning purposes, so there's an Anesthesia Start and End time). We tend to hand off the cases mid-infusion to a PACU nurse so we can start the next one. Again, since we're not billing, we have just sorta kept doing it this way for efficiency. Out in the world, I wondered how it would look to have one clinician responsible for multiple patients simultaneously. From a safety perspective, I agree it would seem very safe to me to have 3-4 of these going at once; the doses are really very small. But from a regulatory standpoint, I wouldn't think you could be documenting care for them simultaneously.

If I can medically direct 4 operating rooms at once (and medically supervise more than that), I assure you that being in the building while a bunch of people are getting ketamine infusions is kosher.
 
I think theres too much negativity. i support OPs efforts and id like to hear more about how it goes
i think a lot of building a successful ketamine clinic depends on how good of a business person you are. a lot of us may be great anesthesiologists, but awful business folks. a lot of this will be about marketing and getting referrals

another thing is if you do this for chronic pain, if lawyers accuse you of being a drug dispensary, how would you defend yourself? by directing them to referring physician?
 
Most of the docs working as “employee” of these clinics are generally not board certified. Red flags , history of alcohol or drug abuse, hard time finding real work.

basically same docs u see in pain script puppy mill clinics, Medical marijuana clinics.

not surprising. Many of these docs earn decent 300-400k living for years as employees or 1099 contractor no nights no weekends.
 
@Piebaldi, you go ahead and do your damn thing. Screw the negativity. If it works and you do well, great. I personally don’t see you trying to be living or chasing the mogul life of private jets and fancy cars.

Just trying something different. People will always try to say negative **** and may even call you clueless when you are in a completely different locale that plays by different rules.

They surf and swim in the Pacific but yet seem to know all about ice fishing in the Great Lakes. May never have seen no damn snow in their lives but will tell you which winter coats are the best.

You do you.

Do YOUR market research and try what YOU want and hire who YOU think is appropriate. Only youknow what you want. It is after all gonna be YOUR DAMN clinic.

If it doesn’t work, at least you tried something different.
 
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IV ketamine has no long-term evidence for pain control. As for depression, I suspect intranasal ketamine will phase out IV infusions over time. This would probably work better for pain as well.

Most cash ketamine clinics (at least for pain) take advantage of people's hope and desperation, or cater to a more nefarious crowd. I don't know what 'PRP for hair' is but stem cell/regenerative clinics are much the same. Heck, why not distinguish yourself and open a Precedex clinic.

If done right sounds like a potentially profitable business venture - just be honest with yourself what service you're providing.
 
perhaps im not being clear, not sure. The point is the following - a ketamine clinic is just that - a ketamine clinic. it's not a diagnostic clinic, just like if u go to a medi spa "supervised" by a physician where u get a prp injection for ur hair loss, they are not doing work up. sure if they insert the needle into ur brain somehow, sure they'll get sued. but if u have lupus for example and they dont say hey! u have lupus that's why u r losing ur hair or whatever, they won't get sued - their role is not to diagnose u.
my role in a ketamine clinic is not to diagnose patients - they are supposed to have a treating doctor - psych, pain doctor, whatever managing their care - i am not there to treat them outside that capacity. sure if i give the patient the wrong dose, if they have an adverse effect bc i did something wrong, etc sure i can besued.

So, to be clear, you're only accepting patients referred by other physicians?

No walk-ins?

How do you intend to get other physicians to refer patients to you instead of the places they're referring to now?
 
If I can medically direct 4 operating rooms at once (and medically supervise more than that), I assure you that being in the building while a bunch of people are getting ketamine infusions is kosher.
Right, but in those four ORs is a crna who is directly caring for just that patient. In the ketamine clinic, that would not be the case; it would just be you alone caring for four patients at once. Still kosher?
 
Right, but in those four ORs is a crna who is directly caring for just that patient. In the ketamine clinic, that would not be the case; it would just be you alone caring for four patients at once. Still kosher?

Yes, still kosher. Another analogy, an ICU doc can take care of like 16 or 24 critically ill patients at once so pretty sure a couple people getting small doses of ketamine is going to be fine.

Physicians can actually take care of more than one person at once.
 
Yes, still kosher. Another analogy, an ICU doc can take care of like 16 or 24 critically ill patients at once so pretty sure a couple people getting small doses of ketamine is going to be fine.

Physicians can actually take care of more than one person at once.
Well, again, there’s a nurse in the room with the ICU patient. The ketamine patients are having an anesthetic. Are you saying you could simultaneously bill anesthesia time for more than one patient without an extender? Or are you not billing anesthesia time when you bill for these cases?
 
Well, again, there’s a nurse in the room with the ICU patient. The ketamine patients are having an anesthetic. Are you saying you could simultaneously bill anesthesia time for more than one patient without an extender? Or are you not billing anesthesia time when you bill for these cases?

low dose ketamine infusions are subanesthetic doses and not considered an anesthetic and not billed for anesthesia time. Also ICU patients do not necessarily have a nurse in the room. Those nurses can be 2:1 with critically ill patients. You could easily have 1 doc and 1 or 2 nurses watching 5 or 10 patients getting a tiny dose of ketamine at the same time.

You can't bill an anesthetic without an associated surgical procedure code.
 
low dose ketamine infusions are subanesthetic doses and not considered an anesthetic and not billed for anesthesia time. Also ICU patients do not necessarily have a nurse in the room. Those nurses can be 2:1 with critically ill patients. You could easily have 1 doc and 1 or 2 nurses watching 5 or 10 patients getting a tiny dose of ketamine at the same time.

You can't bill an anesthetic without an associated surgical procedure code.

Thank you. There is no "anesthetic" billed for ketamine. You should come work for me - in about 6 months 🙂
 
Thank you. There is no "anesthetic" billed for ketamine. You should come work for me - in about 6 months 🙂

your pay is not competitive with my day job. If we go to M4A and anesthesia reimbursement tanked, I would more strongly consider something like that.
 
You should come work for me - in about 6 months 🙂

How are you planning to make any significant money off this venture is you’re gonna be paying someone else to staff it?

When you factor in rent/utilities/supplies/advertising/RN salary/ + paying another doc there isn’t gonna be much of anything left over for you to make this worth your while and initial investment.

Not trying to be a Debbie Downer. Just forcing you to look at all these details.
 
How are you planning to make any significant money off this venture is you’re gonna be paying someone else to staff it?

When you factor in rent/utilities/supplies/advertising/RN salary/ + paying another doc there isn’t gonna be much of anything left over for you to make this worth your while and initial investment.

Not trying to be a Debbie Downer. Just forcing you to look at all these details.

Well I respect your opinion, but disagree with you. And yes every venture has the possibility to fail - but I am of the belief that if you dont try you can't succeed. Just like med school and residency - there are countless ways and reasons one can fail, but if you work hard, are diligent, you can be successful and do well.
So if it fails, it fails - at least I would have tried. If it succeeds good for me and for all the patients that I could help.
 
Well, again, there’s a nurse in the room with the ICU patient. The ketamine patients are having an anesthetic. Are you saying you could simultaneously bill anesthesia time for more than one patient without an extender? Or are you not billing anesthesia time when you bill for these cases?

We run similar dose infusions on the hospital floor for postop pain control. Those nurses are something like 1:6 or 1:8 at night, and also are dealing with all the other nurse stuff that happens with sick people inthe hospital.
 
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