holy **** i need advice: academic misconduct

[KeyzerSoze]

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If you go by the definition of cheating, you have. Intentionally or not. Ever brainstorm with a group of people? Ever work with someone else on something...or hear an idea in passing? Ever like the way something is phrased even if you never used that phrase itself? There is external influence on our cognition....there is actually no surefire way of justifying the fact that your situation is otherwise, and that everything you have ever done/come up with is original. Even the most trivial things have some sort of effect....but I'm glad you decided to somehow relate this to me defending my own lack of integrity, yup.

That's ridiculous. The things you mention are not considered cheating; brainstorming and working together and the like are encouraged by colleges and professors. Writing down the exact same thing as a friend and handing it in is not. I do tend to agree that the punishment in this case seems rather draconian, though.

 

[Static Line]

That's ridiculous. The things you mention are not considered cheating; brainstorming and working together and the like are encouraged by colleges and professors. Writing down the exact same thing as a friend and handing it in is not. I do tend to agree that the punishment in this case seems rather draconian, though.

The honor code system at my school has many checks and balances. For one, you can't be convicted of anything by a simple majority. It must be by 2/3 voting guilty. That is a supermajority and that is a lot of convincing by the evidence to get a conviction. It's not a matter taken lightly. I have no experience with these matters elsewhere but many of my colleagues who are committee members with me have. From my conversations with them I am assuming there are also many checks and balances at other places as well.

I find it hard to believe that a majority of the people involved in the honor code system wherever the OP is from would be frivolous. We are only hearing one side of the story, and that's all we are going to hear because these matters are confidential. Chances are there is more to this situation. People just don't get singled out for frivolous issues and a majority of people involved with the honor code system go along with it.

I've come out of committee procedings after dealing with some student, and heard through the rumor mill what went on during the administrative panel. It is so far from the TRUTH that I sometimes wonder if I even sat in on the same panel after hearing these rumors.

That is what I equate this OP to. The rumors! We don't know what happened or the evidence they had to agree on a verdict of guilt. We only have the story of the accused! (now convicted)

 

[notdeadyet]

By the end of today, the provost of the other university will know about the circumstances we're in. If he decides that he himself, would give students a second chance by giving a more lenient punishment such as a letter drop instead of a failing grade, than maybe it will give additional support to our appeal letter.

Wow. You are betraying an ignorance of how academia works. You'd best pray that this provost of the other school just gives you words of encouragement. I can't imagine he'd be foolish enough to voice his opinions to your school on the matter, but if he does, it will only hurt your case.

Actually, it's not an ignorance of academia, it's an ignorance of how anyone over the age of 22 thinks. No teacher likes it if another teacher walks in to his classroom and says, "this is how I'd've taught the class." No mechanic likes it if another mechanic comes in to his shop and says, "this is how I'd've rebuilt the transmission", etc. This is even more true among folks in academia.

When we're punished harshly by Dad, we go running to Mom in hopes of more lenient punishment. You are, in effect, running to Bob the Neighbor for him to get involved. What do you think Dad's reaction to this is going to be?

 

[notdeadyet]

And incidentally, the more publicity you try to draw to your problem, the more hardline the university is going to be. If it's a matter of a couple of repentant kids looking for a break on a harsh punishment, you have a shot. You are in essence asking for their mercy.

But when you start getting other provosts from outside the university involved, get your lawyers sic'd on their lawyers and alert the media, it's no longer about you. It's about the issue.

You are now, in essence, making it about plagarism. And any university is going to take a hard line on plagarism. And the more eyeballs involved, the harder the stand they're going to take.

 

[QuantumMechanic]

There are too many people with unblemished records. I wouldn't give an applicant who had been convicted of plagiarism a first look. Yes, the first things I would look for are any red flags, even before I read through the app. It is easier to help a student with lower numbers than a candidate with stellar numbers who has a bad attitude that was convicted of plagiarism.

two points, take 'em or leave 'em for what they're worth, not trying to defend the OP, but all this is silly.

1. Your commentary seems to encourage people to lie on applications, since after all, if you do get away with not having blemishes on your app for whatever reason, then you will get looked at, rather than your app in the trash. If the OP was just listening to you, then the best course of action for him would be to lie (depending if the offense goes on the transcript or not...)

2. I had a friend who violated the Honor Code at my college and she got kicked out for a semester this past spring. Was her lack of appropriately citing her sources worthy of suspension and then (if she were a premed) essentially any chance at getting into med school. Plagiarism on your humanities papers has nothing really to do with your competence or your compassion towards the sick. Serious plagiarism (copying others' work, etc). might be more a concern in terms of honesty, but as House correctly opines, "Everybody lies."

 

[notdeadyet]

Plagiarism on your humanities papers has nothing really to do with your competence or your compassion towards the sick.

Here's the problem: plagarism is cheating. If you are proven to cheat during undergad, what assurance do I have that you won't cheat during medical school? What assurance do I have that you won't cheat as a physician?

There are too many applicants out there without a record for cheating to easily overlook applicants who do. Not saying it's fair, not saying it's not fair, but it's what is.

 

[dasaniwater]

thanks for all the input. most of what was said was honest and what you all felt. however, a lot of it was being discouraging and didnt pertain to helping us out (which was THE ONLY reason to start this thread in the 1st place). Rude remarks are fine, they dont hurt me, but much of what was said should be placed into context. You are talking to people who having commited a mistake and are currently paying consequences. Much of what we've been through is enough and so we are just trying to reverse, if only a little bit, of what the penalty is for what we did. I was merely asking on how this could be done and how doing things on the AMCAS would effect my chances of getting in. It wasn't all support, but the mere fact that people helped is what should be done trhoughout SDN, not attacking, insulting or making some feel worse than they already are. This is advice for the future. I am fine, trust me, although I havent been in much tougher situations, I've already learned quite a bit from this. I just hope that those that were posting negative thoughts and bashing other people trying to help us will grow up if they want to become physicians.

 

[mms2k7]

That's ridiculous. The things you mention are not considered cheating; brainstorming and working together and the like are encouraged by colleges and professors. Writing down the exact same thing as a friend and handing it in is not. I do tend to agree that the punishment in this case seems rather draconian, though.

you are right! however therein lies the ambiguity. How far can "brainstorming" go before you could call it cheating? is there a line? Collaboration IS encouraged by professors, however if you ask students to collaborate, you ask them to swap ideas. if you ask them to swap ideas, you know very well that they will be influenced by each other.

If they are influenced by each other and thinking along the same mindset, their work will look similar. IF all the OP did was work together with a student, then OBVIOUSLY his work will look similar. IF the answers to the questions were blatantly obvious, SO much so that other students also handed in verbatim answers...then should it make a difference if the OP and his partner decided to change the order of a couple of sentences and maybe cross out some "the"s, etc? Even if that is all it took, should that be an acceptable way to circumvent plagiarism?? See what im saying?? I'm not condoning it. I'm saying that there is a great deal of ambiguity in this situation. From what the OP has said, his intent was not malicious.

There are always degrees to a crime. We as a justice system take into account the intent of the criminal..thats why homocide can be considered negligent. When we punish them we punish individuals more so according to their intent rather than their action. The OP is being punished, clearly, for the perceived action. No one wants to hear the story behind it, and yes it is unfair, but such is life.

The best way to shed light would be, as Static said, to hear the other side. I'd be interested to see what his professors take is on this...does he really want to ruin the lives of two students with potentially bright futures, over an claim which by the looks of it, many other students in the class may be guilty of?

 

[Static Line]

two points, take 'em or leave 'em for what they're worth, not trying to defend the OP, but all this is silly.

1. Your commentary seems to encourage people to lie on applications, since after all, if you do get away with not having blemishes on your app for whatever reason, then you will get looked at, rather than your app in the trash. If the OP was just listening to you, then the best course of action for him would be to lie (depending if the offense goes on the transcript or not...)

2. I had a friend who violated the Honor Code at my college and she got kicked out for a semester this past spring. Was her lack of appropriately citing her sources worthy of suspension and then (if she were a premed) essentially any chance at getting into med school. Plagiarism on your humanities papers has nothing really to do with your competence or your compassion towards the sick. Serious plagiarism (copying others' work, etc). might be more a concern in terms of honesty, but as House correctly opines, "Everybody lies."

The whole point of rules exist for all to follow and obey. I am not talking about the validity of the rule or not, whether it is a ridiculous rule or not, just the idea that they exist. If you can't follow simple rules by not plagiarising then the debate hinges on whether you are competent to even go to med school but that is a different argument.

If I (which I am not) were an administrator and someone choose to disobey the rules we have set in place, then I consider that person to be telling me to,"Screw off." I would take that personally. If you choose to lie on your app, and you get caught then good luck with life but you won't be doing it at my med school. Doesn't matter if "everybody" lies or not, he got caught. I speed everywhere I go if I get a ticket, then it's my fault. I can't tell the cop to look at everyone else they are speeding too. The cop can only get one at a time, and this time it was me.

I just think this whole thread is hinging on the honest word of the OP. We don't know the whole story though.

 

[realitybias]

thanks for all the input. most of what was said was honest and what you all felt. however, a lot of it was being discouraging and didnt pertain to helping us out (which was THE ONLY reason to start this thread in the 1st place). Rude remarks are fine, they dont hurt me, but much of what was said should be placed into context. You are talking to people who having commited a mistake and are currently paying consequences. Much of what we've been through is enough and so we are just trying to reverse, if only a little bit, of what the penalty is for what we did. I was merely asking on how this could be done and how doing things on the AMCAS would effect my chances of getting in. It wasn't all support, but the mere fact that people helped is what should be done trhoughout SDN, not attacking, insulting or making some feel worse than they already are. This is advice for the future. I am fine, trust me, although I havent been in much tougher situations, I've already learned quite a bit from this. I just hope that those that were posting negative thoughts and bashing other people trying to help us will grow up if they want to become physicians.

I'm glad you took my advice. I don't think that your punishment fit the crime, and I hope your lawyer could help you out. Your post is still quoted by a few people, but you took out a lot of what was incriminating. Take it from someone who has witnessed employers, school officials, etc. use the internet and find incriminating evidence, you don't want to go down that route. I hope you've learned something, and I wish you the best of luck. Make a case for leniency.

 

[jace's mom]

I've already learned quite a bit from this. I just hope that those that were posting negative thoughts and bashing other people trying to help us will grow up if they want to become physicians.

I've been waiting for awhile to post on this thread because I wanted to think about what (if anything) I had to say. I'm very sorry that you are having this experience, and I sincerely hope you have learned from it. When you began posting, I did not see any sense of remorse from you or any acceptance that, at least to some degree, you had done something wrong. What I saw was more to the effect of either placing blame on other people (the prof and TA, for example) or trying to explain your behavior because other people acted the same way. Lots of people do many things that are illegal and do not get caught; that's a fact of life that is not fair, but maturity comes with being able to face yourself in the mirror at the end of the day.

Perhaps some remarks were too harsh, but I also think that at least some people were trying to be blunt because your posts did not seem to reflect that you had accepted the gravity of the situation. It almost appeared as if you merely wanted support for your own point of view, rather than an honest assessment of the truth. Honesty is not easy, but it is important. Would I tell someone if I thought they had made a major mistake, if I thought that they knew it was a mistake, and if I thought they were trying to rationalize the mistake? You bet. I'm a mother, I love my kids dearly, and those kids can tell you that, as much as I love them, I absolutely will not be fooled and am never afraid to call things as they are. As my oldest daughter says, "When the eyebrow goes up, take cover!" 😉

So do I think you messed up? Yes. Do I think that somewhere inside, you realize that? Yes. What do I think you should do? I think you should take some of the very good advice that has been given to you on this board by people who know about the academic policy system. It sounds like you might have at least a chance if you approach this the right way. I don't know much about those areas, so I'll let others help with that. What I do know is that this moment...how you react to this right now...will determine a lot of things for you. Terrible moments can either destroy or define us; it's up to you to decide which it will be. Accept what has happened, work through whatever measures of recovery you decide upon, and keep your eyes on the prize. It's not about what people have said or not said that may or may not be harsh; it's about you, trying to recover your life with unshakeable dignity.

You have said that some people need to grow up. Perhaps that's true. I would gently suggest the same thing for you. You have a bit of growing to do, and you are currently in a difficult situation which might, if handled correctly, allow you to mature into an amazing, strong, and humble person whom anyone would admire and be glad to call friend. I sincerely wish you all the best on the journey.

 

[Foghorn]

It's only cheating if you get caught. Well, plagiarizing in this case.

 

[searun]

It's only cheating if you get caught. Well, plagiarizing in this case.

Ah, yes, I understand...the sound of one hand clapping.

 

[white_n_nerdy]

This thread is ridiculous. Bottom line, the OP plagiarized his assignment. He cut and pasted material and collaborated with others and did not properly site or acknowledge this. That is a text book definition of plagiarism. All college students should know this. If they do not, they need to immediately learn it. To the OP: beg for forgiveness, ask for leniency, whatever. If you do not get some sort of relief, you are screwed.

 

[coffeebythelake]

This thread is ridiculous. Bottom line, the OP plagiarized his assignment. He cut and pasted material and collaborated with others and did not properly site or acknowledge this. That is a text book definition of plagiarism. All college students should know this. If they do not, they need to immediately learn it. To the OP: beg for forgiveness, ask for leniency, whatever. If you do not get some sort of relief, you are screwed.

👍

 

[dasaniwater]

hey so i wanted to update everyone on my situation.

I was accused of plagairism and collaborating with another student. I went to a hearing, ended up failing the class and being placed on academic probation. My friend and I appealed the decision 3 days before it was due because of the harsh penalty. On the last day, we submitted another document to attach to the appeal. The initial letter written by us said that we were sorry, didnt mean it, would never do it again, etc. (which is still the case) The lawyer however went a different route and said we did nothing wrong. About a month after the incident and failing the class, we were notified every charge was overturned and that everything is back to normal.

I had my application ready to go on June 5th and was deciding whether or not to check yes or no on academic misconduct. I talked to AMCAS and they said to check the box even though I was in the appeals process. I decided to wait it out inside for a miracle and it happened.

For those of you who get caught up in struggles, whether its like the situation i was in or far worse, keep your head up cause there is never an end until you quit. Always pray.

Now I will fight for a grade for the assignment I got a 0 on even though it was 5% of my final grade. I wont stop til I get everything I deserve back from the class that nearly screwed my life.

 

[TheRealMD]

hey so i wanted to update everyone on my situation.

I was accused of plagairism and collaborating with another student. I went to a hearing, ended up failing the class and being placed on academic probation. My friend and I appealed the decision 3 days before it was due because of the harsh penalty. On the last day, we submitted another document to attach to the appeal. The initial letter written by us said that we were sorry, didnt mean it, would never do it again, etc. (which is still the case) The lawyer however went a different route and said we did nothing wrong. About a month after the incident and failing the class, we were notified every charge was overturned and that everything is back to normal.

I had my application ready to go on June 5th and was deciding whether or not to check yes or no on academic misconduct. I talked to AMCAS and they said to check the box even though I was in the appeals process. I decided to wait it out inside for a miracle and it happened.

For those of you who get caught up in struggles, whether its like the situation i was in or far worse, keep your head up cause there is never an end until you quit. Always pray.

Now I will fight for a grade for the assignment I got a 0 on even though it was 5% of my final grade. I wont stop til I get everything I deserve back from the class that nearly screwed my life.

I give you credit for sticking it out. One event can totally ruin a person's life and I'm glad yours has been spared. 👍

 

[proclivity]

Look at the news. UC is getting ready to dump a tenured professor for plagiarism.

Coming from the side of student government I come from I can see somewhat from the interviewer's (professor) eyes. His infraction, no matter how insignificant to some, is a big deal to professors who demand professionalism.

I think he/she has an impossible hurdle to jump without getting that expunged from the record. If he did do it then expungement (is that a word?) is not likely.

It's a word alright.

 

[silas2642]

hey so i wanted to update everyone on my situation.

I was accused of plagairism and collaborating with another student. I went to a hearing, ended up failing the class and being placed on academic probation. My friend and I appealed the decision 3 days before it was due because of the harsh penalty. On the last day, we submitted another document to attach to the appeal. The initial letter written by us said that we were sorry, didnt mean it, would never do it again, etc. (which is still the case) The lawyer however went a different route and said we did nothing wrong. About a month after the incident and failing the class, we were notified every charge was overturned and that everything is back to normal.

I had my application ready to go on June 5th and was deciding whether or not to check yes or no on academic misconduct. I talked to AMCAS and they said to check the box even though I was in the appeals process. I decided to wait it out inside for a miracle and it happened.

For those of you who get caught up in struggles, whether its like the situation i was in or far worse, keep your head up cause there is never an end until you quit. Always pray.

Now I will fight for a grade for the assignment I got a 0 on even though it was 5% of my final grade. I wont stop til I get everything I deserve back from the class that nearly screwed my life.

I'm glad to hear that it worked out for you. As for fighting the grade that you "deserve," don't you think that maybe some repurcussion for your actions are in order? What you did was pretty much the definition of plagiarism, and as a physician you are going to have to start taking responsibilty for your actions. Better to learn this sooner rather than later. There are rules that you have to play by now, and when you don't adhere to those rules there are consequences. It just doesn't seem that you're entitled to walk away from this situation as if you did nothing wrong, because you did do something wrong, you got caught, and you ended up with a slap on the wrist. You should at least take your minor punishment like a man. Good luck with the application process this year.

 

[dasaniwater]

I'm glad to hear that it worked out for you. As for fighting the grade that you "deserve," don't you think that maybe some repurcussion for your actions are in order? What you did was pretty much the definition of plagiarism, and as a physician you are going to have to start taking responsibilty for your actions. Better to learn this sooner rather than later. There are rules that you have to play by now, and when you don't adhere to those rules there are consequences. It just doesn't seem that you're entitled to walk away from this situation as if you did nothing wrong, because you did do something wrong, you got caught, and you ended up with a slap on the wrist. You should at least take your minor punishment like a man. Good luck with the application process this year.

Your right. Every mistake does have its consequence. In this case, the mistake has made me depressed every other day for a month. Not knowing the outcome, waiting, and knowing that my act could have costed me med school is in my opinion are my conquences. If you were in the position I was in, youd think the same. Receiving full credit isnt to prevent punishment. I've already received my punishment. Worrying, crying, standing in a hearing, waiting, meeting with many administrators, having this incident take over my life (all that I thought about, talked about) are my consequences. Receiving a 0 is not my punishment. If it was, I would have gladly taken it. There is much more to the consequences than a 0 on a 5% assignment. Trust me.

 

[notdeadyet]

Every mistake does have its consequence. In this case, the mistake has made me depressed every other day for a month. Not knowing the outcome, waiting, and knowing that my act could have costed me med school is in my opinion are my conquences. .... I've already received my punishment. Worrying, crying, standing in a hearing, waiting, meeting with many administrators, having this incident take over my life (all that I thought about, talked about) are my consequences.

No, those were the consequences of you appealing your punishment. The 0 is the punishment itself.

You probably have a shot at getting rid of the 0, as most universities hate confrontation. If you're successful, it will mean you got away without any actual punishment itself. Sorry, handwringing over the unfairness of it all doesn't qualify.

 

[silas2642]

Your right. Every mistake does have its consequence. In this case, the mistake has made me depressed every other day for a month. Not knowing the outcome, waiting, and knowing that my act could have costed me med school is in my opinion are my conquences. If you were in the position I was in, youd think the same. Receiving full credit isnt to prevent punishment. I've already received my punishment. Worrying, crying, standing in a hearing, waiting, meeting with many administrators, having this incident take over my life (all that I thought about, talked about) are my consequences. Receiving a 0 is not my punishment. If it was, I would have gladly taken it. There is much more to the consequences than a 0 on a 5% assignment. Trust me.

But you're not the one who gets to decide what the consequences are. That's kind of the entire point here. You got really, really lucky here by getting a lawyer and intimidating the administration to the point where you became such a headache that they just dropped the entire case and let you get away with it. You violated the code of conduct, and if it cost you your academic future, then you wouldn't have had anyone to blame but yourself. That is the harsh reality of it. Your "punishment" wasn't to feel bad and worry about your future, your punishment was whatever the people you answer to, in this case your professor and dean, said it would be as they follow the code of conduct that you were supposed to be following. The noble thing to do would be to take your zero and be grateful for it.

If you do something this stupid again, you're not going to get another "get out of jail free" card like this again, is all I'm trying to tell you. You need to understand that you have to answer to someone, that there are consequences to your actions, and those consequences are more than just feeling bad about what you've done and worrying about whether or not you've blown your future.

Should you become a physician, you need to have the maturity to take full responsibilty for all of your actions and not make up excuses like, "I didn't understand the rules, but I feel really bad that I screwed up" and stupid crap like that. If you make a mistake, if you break the rules, you deal with the **** that comes with it.

 

[coffeebythelake]

Exactly. The OP plagiarized and got away with it. The fact that the university decided to overturn your penalty for academic misconduct does not mean you are innocent. You aren't. Fighting for a regrade on your offending assignment is down right conceited. I don't empathize with your situation. I think you deserve a lot worse.

 

[notdeadyet]

You got really, really lucky here by getting a lawyer and intimidating the administration to the point where you became such a headache that they just dropped the entire case and let you get away with it.

It's not luck, it's privilege. Folks with the money to hire lawyers every time they get in trouble will always fare better.

This story would have had a very different ending were the OP a kid living hand to mouth on financial aid without the family resources to hire an attorney.

 

[lsumedgirl]

Now I will fight for a grade for the assignment I got a 0 on even though it was 5% of my final grade. I wont stop til I get everything I deserve back from the class that nearly screwed my life.

It's nice that everything worked out in your favor. But I hope that you've learned A LOT from this entire incident. From what I gather from the last sentence in your post, you feel as if something unjust was done to you... you state that "the class nearly screwed your life." To be more correct, the fact that you plagarized in the class nearly screwed your life. Every college student knows what plagarism is, and knows that there are consequences for it. Your actions were wrong, hands down, and you're VERY VERY lucky that you won't be paying for it by having it affect your career. Just realize how fortunate you are and NEVER make this mistake again. Your being "nearly screwed" was due to your own actions. Best of luck in the future.

 

[dasaniwater]

It's nice that everything worked out in your favor. But I hope that you've learned A LOT from this entire incident. From what I gather from the last sentence in your post, you feel as if something unjust was done to you... you state that "the class nearly screwed your life." To be more correct, the fact that you plagarized in the class nearly screwed your life. Every college student knows what plagarism is, and knows that there are consequences for it. Your actions were wrong, hands down, and you're VERY VERY lucky that you won't be paying for it by having it affect your career. Just realize how fortunate you are and NEVER make this mistake again. Your being "nearly screwed" was due to your own actions. Best of luck in the future.

very true. i am very lucky to be where i am at right now. and your right, my actions did cause what happened to happen. i didnt mean to sound like the it was the class that screwed me. i have indeed learned a lot from it and i am glad i had to go through this now than later.

 

[Tiagao]

Good people make mistakes but fighting to see to it that "nothing happened" does not show remorse for a poor decision at all. I really hope that everything goes well with you career, but please don't appeal the 0 on the assignment. That would be completely negating all of the "feeling bad" about the incident. Basically it shows that you didn't feel bad at all about what you did, only that you were scared of the way others would perceive the action.

 

[Karen12345]

People get so judgemental so quickly. Someone simply wanted advice and possibly encouragement. Instead ended up with most people simply lecturing. Just horrible.

 

[secret]

Keep your mouth shut, or you will most certainly lose everything you've gained.

 

[dasaniwater]

Keep your mouth shut, or you will most certainly lose everything you've gained.

what do you mean?

 

[secret]

Sorry. I was really puffed up on Panadeine Forte when I wrote that, I don't know what I meant.