Homeopathy

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So how do you know the homeopathic treatment did anything? Post hoc ergo propter hoc?

Funny you would say that. The scientific way of establishing a causality requires the temporal association of exposure preceding the event. The same argument you are giving me as "fallacy". I am not really as smart as you seem to be so please go ahead and resolve this paradox for me.
 
Please actually look up the tenents of homeopathy and come back and see if you agree with the above statement.

To summarize, homeopaths take compounds that cause the same symptoms they are trying to treat and then dilute so much that there literally could not be a molecule of the compound still in the "treatment." The more dilute and the more likely there is no compound in the mixture, the stronger they claim it is.
Basically they say they work because water has "memory."

The claims that homeopaths don't just treat the symptoms is false. Their "treatments" are derived from the exact symptoms they are trying to treat. It is not holistic, it is symptom based. Res ipsa loquitur.

It is also ridiculous.

I agree that that sounds ridiculous. I guess when I think of "homeopathy", I am actually thinking about doctors who use herbal supplements. I would have no problem using herbal supplements in medical practice (as long as you could back up their use with scientific research), but to sell someone water as "medicine" is quackery (again, assuming that this is what they believe).

Out of curiosity of the subject, I just ordered "Boericke's New Manual of Homeopathic Materia Medica with Repertory" off Amazon. I expect it will be an interesting read.
 
Funny you would say that. The scientific way of establishing a causality requires the temporal association of exposure preceding the event. The same argument you are giving me as "fallacy". I am not really as smart as you seem to be so please go ahead and resolve this paradox for me.
Actually the scientific way would be, in a nut shell, segregate two groups chosen at random with the target disease and dose one with a drug being investigated while dosing the other group with a placebo (water [non-homeopathic, of course], sugar pill, etc.) and compare the effects. What group gets which "treatment" should be chosen at random, and the patients and doctors conducting the trial should be (ideally) blind to which patient is receiving which treatment until all the results are in. If there is a statistically significant difference in positive outcome between the control group (the one receiving the placebo) and the test group (the one receiving the drug), with the test group experiencing better outcome than the control group, one can say the drug caused the increase in positive outcomes, pending further tests and analysis, peer review, etc.

That is a little bit different from "OMG I had this sniffle, and I took this homeopathic drug, and two days later my sniffle was GONE!!!!1!"
 
I always think about "Do no harm" principle first and I would only be upset if a patient was going in harm's way by a) receiving homeopathic or any other care and b) was refusing a allopathic treatment modality in favor of the "alternative" to his/her peril. Other than that it is only rational and ethical to not say anything ignorant such as it is quackery unless you can prove it with finality which I don't think we can do as of today. There will always be counter arguments. The scientific and rational way to make a statement about homeopathy, in my opinion, is "the claims have not been thoroughly tested scientifically for its efficacy."

I have received homeopathic treatment from a professional homeopath under different circumstances, once in middle of nowhere for an ailment with clear objective signs associated with it; and treating which is my own speicalty.

No the scientific and rational way to make a statement about homeopathy is:
"The claims have not been shown to be ineffective in all scientific trials. There is no physiological reason to think it could possibly work. Furthermore, it defies all knowledge of rational subatomic physics which is a field that is well known, especially about water."

I will post studies in a bit.

Also you say it was in your own specialty. What "specialty" is that and what are your qualifications?

I am not surprised cause i know nothing one says will ever convince allopathic students.

Homeopathy is not effective because to many it lacks scientificity.Now, when has science become the sole parameter of measuring the effectiveness of a thing?Long before the advent of scientific inquiry, our forefathers took care of their health without any scientific intervention.My point is, stop making science the ultimate; for the are making things that science itself cannot justify.With time homeopathy will get to that point of scientificity.

Pray you don't find yourselves in a chronic problem where many medical doctors will fail you and feed your life with antibiotics.Then holistic medicine will definitely be your last resort.

Not true. What will convince allopathic students would be a well designed, randomized controll trial that showed not only that homeopathy worked but that it was vastly superior to placebo.

Homeopathy is not effective because it doesn't work. The fact that it doesn't have positive studies means there is nothing to support your statement. What scientists have is a plethora of sciece showing why it wont work physciologically and physically and studies showing that it doesn't work. If you can explain why physiologically it would work... please do so.

If I need antibiotics, it is because I have an infection. There no doubt is a lot of overuse of antibiotics. I am a bit of a purist with that regard. You being... well whatever you are... have not seen what a true infection can do- and not this bull**** yeast colonization- but a true, life threatening infection. When you come face to face with sepsis, necrotizing fasciitis, pneumonia causing respiratory failure and see how quickly it kills, well you'll realize just how foolish you are.

Instatewaiter, MD, Purveyor of truth, Destroyer of Myth, Negater of *******ery
 
I agree that that sounds ridiculous. I guess when I think of "homeopathy", I am actually thinking about doctors who use herbal supplements. I would have no problem using herbal supplements in medical practice (as long as you could back up their use with scientific research), but to sell someone water as "medicine" is quackery (again, assuming that this is what they believe).

Out of curiosity of the subject, I just ordered "Boericke's New Manual of Homeopathic Materia Medica with Repertory" off Amazon. I expect it will be an interesting read.
A lot of things are called homeopathy which are not the real definition of homeopathy, which is the diluted water described above. Herbs would be under "naturopathy" or herbalism. The question with these treatments would be, why would an herb or some such with unknown concentration of a drug (or drugs) that is naturally found in an herb, unknown other compounds at unknown concentrations and with unknown interactions with one another and other compounds a patient may be taking, better than a known, quality controlled and exhaustively tested compound of a very specific dosage produced by a highly-regulated lab?
 
Please actually look up the tenents of homeopathy and come back and see if you agree with the above statement.

To summarize, homeopaths take compounds that cause the same symptoms they are trying to treat and then dilute so much that there literally could not be a molecule of the compound still in the "treatment." The more dilute and the more likely there is no compound in the mixture, the stronger they claim it is.
Basically they say they work because water has "memory."

The claims that homeopaths don't just treat the symptoms is false. Their "treatments" are derived from the exact symptoms they are trying to treat. It is not holistic, it is symptom based. Res ipsa loquitur.

It is also ridiculous.

Alright I am gonna throw my homeopathic medicines down the drain. Because they are nothing but just placebos. If they seem to be helping me, it is not by design but because of placebo effect. I will start the allopathic again because it does not work by placebo effect. How can it when IT DOES NOT WORK AT ALL? 😀

No one here is pushing the homeopathy or its doctrine. Just a little open mindedness. Trust me I see the explanation of its mechanism through the same science that you do and it does not make sense to me either. I am just leaving some room open for a better explanation some day. It is not cure all but people do benefit from it in many situations.
 
Pretty sure vill is suffering from the Dunning-Kruger Effect:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect
http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2475 :laugh:
No the scientific and rational way to make a statement about homeopathy is:
"The claims have not been shown to be ineffective in all scientific trials. There is no physiological reason to think it could possibly work. Furthermore, it defies all knowledge of rational subatomic physics which is a field that is well known, especially about water."

What will convince allopathic students would be a well designed, randomized controll trial that showed not only that homeopathy worked but that it was vastly superior to placebo.
So if vill of generationX or any other Homeopathy supporter is claiming that Homeopathic school teaches A&P so it works, please explain what this "vital force" is and in what manner it exists in the body and operates and how homeopathic remedies interact with it. Please give me a mechanism, because given our current knowledge of human anatomy and physiology, simply saying there is a vital force and homeopathic remedies stimulate this force against the symptom in quesiton isn't going to cut it.
 
Alright I am gonna throw my homeopathic medicines down the drain. Because they are nothing but just placebos. If they seem to be helping me, it is not by design but because of placebo effect. I will start the allopathic again because it does not work by placebo effect. How can it when IT DOES NOT WORK AT ALL? 😀
Really? allopathic medicine doesn't work at all? Ok I guess lowered mortality rates and increased lifespan are just luck.

No one here is pushing the homeopathy or its doctrine. Just a little open mindedness. Trust me I see the explanation of its mechanism through the same science that you do and it does not make sense to me either. I am just leaving some room open for a better explanation some day. It is not cure all but people do benefit from it in many situations.
Being open minded has nothing to do with accepting things that are completely unfounded.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=T69TOuqaqXI
 
Really? allopathic medicine doesn't work at all? Ok I guess lowered mortality rates and increased lifespan are just luck.


Being open minded has nothing to do with accepting things that are completely unfounded.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=T69TOuqaqXI

:bow: I know I am not gonna win this argument because you probably were the president of the debate club in your school. Besides I do not have a pathologic need to feed my ego so I will just concede victory to you because every time I push towards a bottom line that I want to deliver, an intentional distortion of a statement/argument is presented without granting me a footing on my stance. Anyone can tell what I mean by "they dont work at all". Come on, be fair.

It is the nature of skepticism not to accept anything as finality. Otherwise it stops being skepticism and becomes faith. I am a skeptic. As I have mentioned, and those of us who have a license to practice, we should only worry about "Do no harm" principle and should not feel the need to remove perceived benefit under the pretext of "no scientific evidence exists."

Now let the attacks begin again. I will stand corrected if anyone has some "real" insight to offer.
 
Actually the scientific way would be, in a nut shell, segregate two groups chosen at random with the target disease and dose one with a drug being investigated while dosing the other group with a placebo (water [non-homeopathic, of course], sugar pill, etc.) and compare the effects. What group gets which "treatment" should be chosen at random, and the patients and doctors conducting the trial should be (ideally) blind to which patient is receiving which treatment until all the results are in. If there is a statistically significant difference in positive outcome between the control group (the one receiving the placebo) and the test group (the one receiving the drug), with the test group experiencing better outcome than the control group, one can say the drug caused the increase in positive outcomes, pending further tests and analysis, peer review, etc.

That is a little bit different from "OMG I had this sniffle, and I took this homeopathic drug, and two days later my sniffle was GONE!!!!1!"

BTW I am also an epidemiologist. 😀 But thanks for the crash course.
 
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Alright I am gonna throw my homeopathic medicines down the drain.

Ok.

You know what, I think I'll save you some money just to show there's no ill will. If after you throw your homeopathic "medicines" down the drain, you realize you want them back, just turn on the faucet and bottle that. It'll be a super potent dilution. Sorry, had to be sarcastic a little.


Because they are nothing but just placebos. If they seem to be helping me, it is not by design but because of placebo effect. I will start the allopathic again because it does not work by placebo effect. How can it when IT DOES NOT WORK AT ALL? 😀

There are no doubt things that we have no good treatment for. I'll readily admit it and a lot of the nuisance things we treat symptomatically with mediocre results. If homeopathy improves your symptoms and your MD's treatment didn't, whatever. It's obviously not life threatening so it's no skin off of my back and it's *probably* not going to hurt you.

I am curious what illness you have that homeopathy works so well for.
 
No one here is pushing the homeopathy or its doctrine. Just a little open mindedness. Trust me I see the explanation of its mechanism through the same science that you do and it does not make sense to me either. I am just leaving some room open for a better explanation some day. It is not cure all but people do benefit from it in many situations.

I have open mindedness for naturopathy, acupuncture for chronic pain, even chiropractic for low back pain (have even gone to a chiropractor a bunch of times... gasp).

I do have some concern about naturopathy for a few reasons
1) The naturopathic medicines are often compounds with physiological actions but those things that have the phsyiological actions have not been well purified and so you get a dirty drug.

2) Naturopathic medicines often interact with traditional medicines and let's be honest, there isn't a lot of communication between doctors and naturopaths.

3) Naturopaths often (but probably less frequently than homeopaths) have misgivings about true medicine and will push their patients away from mainstream and proven medicine. For little stuff I couldn't care less. For true illness that we have lifesaving therapies for, it pisses me off to no end.


For homeopathy I have even more concerns

1) Homeopaths tend to be cultish in it's beliefs. You kind of have to be to believe something that makes no sense.
2) The cultishness leads to them push their patients away from traditional medicines, especially at times of severe sickness. Their "medicines" are innocuous- basically water- but the effect they can have on how the person gets treatment can be severe and life threatening.

READ THIS
I have personally seen someone who was in his early 40s undergoing chemo with phenomenal results for AML with favorable cytogenetics. He was on his way to a bone marrow transplant and need to finish up another round of chemo before his BMT. The oncologists felt he had roughly a 70% probability of cure (massively high in AML where traditional survival rates are in the 20-40% at 5 years). He decided to see a homeopath who pushed him away from going back to get those treatments or a BMT. He re-presents a few months later (when I took care of him) with such advanced leukemia there was nothing we could do. He got palliation and died during that hospitalization. He could have been cured and almost definitely would have lived longer had it not been for the homeopath who beguiled him into not going back to hopkins for treatment. That takes some nerve. He and his wife kept saying, "I wish we came back here for treatment." It was heart breaking. I should have gotten the name of that homeopath and written him a letter but I never did.

For homeopathy, the entire tenants are ridiculous and bunk. Now at high doses, all homeopathy becomes, is naturopathy which could have some reasonable effect. At homeopathic doses it is nothing more than water with an expensive price tag.

In the end, homeopathy is dangerous because it engenders it's practitioners with a feeling they know better despite having no evidence. They push sick people away from real treatment by using their fear of death and inherent mistrust of authority. At best when the patients are not really sick, it is harmless. At worst it kills people.
 
OK! Read these two personal experiences with patience and give me an answer.Then i will make this debate full time for anybody who is ready.IF YOU CANNOT READ IT WITH PATIENCE THAT IS WHY HOMEOPATHY WILL NEVER OR HAS NEVER WORKED FOR YOU.

FIRST EXPERIENCE WITH HOMEOPATHY

My problem started early 2000 with a mouth odor.Yes, i suddenly just realized people avoided me when i talk to them and even offered gums.My sisters confirmed the change and so my journey for a solution began.I thought maybe i was not giving much attention to dental hygiene even though i was very much aware no one used a toothbrush or floss more than i do.I subsequently involved mouth washes and sophisticated tooth brushes but all to no avail.I ran to dentists; they assured me i was okay but still cleaning were done for me hydrogen peroxide to gargle with at home.Still, the problem was persistent.I ran to allopathic physicians and after series of tests,they said i was fine.They always imposed it on me it was psychological but the the physical symptoms were very glaring.

Now, this is 2003, the symptoms have aggravated into sinusitis with post-nasal drip and whitish/yellowish tongue coating coupled with severe stomach problems accompanied with noise all the time.I went to a general practitioner, he confirmed me okay but referred me to Otolaryngologist (ENT).He confirmed i had sinusitis and so my journey with antibiotics began.

This is 2006,If i haven't spent any personal money,my family has spent close to 11,000 dollars already but still, nothing had changed.My sister brought a news paper to me one day and said "look at what i saw on this news paper". I read through it, and it read: ARE YOU BOTHERED BY ANY MEDICAL PROBLEMS NO ONE HAS BEEN ABLE TO CURE?DR.......name..........HOMEOPATHY MEDICAL CENTER IS YOUR LAST BUS STOP.I immediately discredited it and my mom also did.After few weeks, we decided to give it try.He took my medical history and told my mom:"OTHERS HAVE BEEN FIGHTING THE SYMPTOMS BUT I AM GOING TO THE ROOT.He matched me with some drugs to lick only without water for three months. After 60days, i was already fed up because there was still no change.Just two weeks to the completion of the three months,i started noticing more energy in me cause prior to this time, i was always tired.The stomach upset were no longer there.For the first time, I started noticing the yellowish/whitish coating on my tongue were fading out and any time i pick up my tongue scraper to scrape my tongue,i noticed i was hurting myself because there was nothing much anymore to scrape off.I could breathe with my two nostrils.
I woke up one morning and really didn't feel the need to use a toothbrush because my breathe was just like that of a new born baby.Right then i declared victory and till date still victorious.That was how my misery came to an end.How much did we spend? 90 dollars for visit,150dollars for the drugs.

But one thing i honestly suffer from till date from that experience is that i hardly kiss and if you expect cunnilingus from me, sorry, you are wasting your time because i didn't know how that whole thing started at first and now i try to be extra careful.One good thing about the experience was that, it confined me to my books since i couldn't hangout much.

So imagine going through middle school,high school and part of college with a mouth odor.Trust me,It is not an experience you would wish for your enemy.And here someone sits down and tell me bull-crap about homeopathy?

SECOND EXPERIENCE WITH HOMEOPATHY
Okay, just last year.I was having upper left abdominal pain somewhere underneath my rib cage or diaphragm.I went to a physician.First time he prescribed over the counter drug.No changes after 3weeks.I went back again,he ordered for abdominal x-ray and said: "we found something: "you don't have good bowel movement".He prescribed some drugs.After 6weeks of taking them, yet nothing changed and i have already spent over 2000 dollars.i decided i was not going back.I went to a homeopath(not the first one) September last year because i have since relocated.I told him my symptoms.He said, "you need this drug which he gave to me.Since November the pain has gone 7months.

Can somebody tell me if these were miracles or a pure medical intervention of homeopathy?While i do not discredit allopathy because of its usefulness to mankind, it does not address every medical issue of man and should therefore have respect for other medical counterparts who have devised means to act where it has failed.


Homeopathy might have defied 'scientificity' but it has not failed to reach its ultimate goal which is the restoration of man to good health.I will keep saying it that science is not everything.Nature and man himself are bigger and complex than science that science cannot still fully explore them.Therefore,subjecting the works of man to scientific inquiry as a sole determinant factor to evaluate their credibility is to limit the ability of man who himself is greater than science.Scientific inquiry like homeopathy is another product of man and therefore holds no superiority.Since 'scientificity' is our bone of contention, what is scientific about about scientific inquiry?What is its own verifiability?

Someone mentioned high life expectancy because of allopathy forgetting that man suffer more these days from myriad of toxicity and side effects from allopathic drugs which homeopathy does not have.

I need no scientific inquiry to tell me how homeopathy works.My responses to homeopathy are enough evidence for me.Call me the jingoistic homeopathic ambassador,i don't care for homeopathy has proven itself wise.
 
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OK! Read these two personal experiences with patience and give me an answer.Then i will make this debate full time for anybody who is ready.IF YOU CANNOT READ IT WITH PATIENCE THAT IS WHY HOMEOPATHY WILL NEVER OR HAS NEVER WORKED FOR YOU.

FIRST EXPERIENCE WITH HOMEOPATHY

My problem started early 2000 with a mouth odor.Yes, i suddenly just realized people avoided me when i talk to them and even offered gums.My sisters confirmed the change and so my journey for a solution began.I thought maybe i was not giving much attention to dental hygiene even though i was very much aware no one used a toothbrush or floss more than i do.I subsequently involved mouth washes and sophisticated tooth brushes but all to no avail.I ran to dentists; they assured me i was okay but still cleaning were done for me hydrogen peroxide to gargle with at home.Still, the problem was persistent.I ran to allopathic physicians and after series of tests,they said i was fine.They always imposed it on me it was psychological but the the physical symptoms were very glaring.

Now, this is 2003, the symptoms have aggravated into sinusitis with post-nasal drip and whitish/yellowish tongue coating coupled with severe stomach problems accompanied with noise all the time.I went to a general practitioner, he confirmed me okay but referred me to Otolaryngologist (ENT).He confirmed i had sinusitis and so my journey with antibiotics began.

This is 2006,If i haven't spent any personal money,my family has spent close to 11,000 dollars already but still, nothing had changed.My sister brought a news paper to me one day and said "look at what i saw on this news paper". I read through it, and it read: ARE YOU BOTHERED BY ANY MEDICAL PROBLEMS NO ONE HAS BEEN ABLE TO CURE?DR.......name..........HOMEOPATHY MEDICAL CENTER IS YOUR LAST BUS STOP.I immediately discredited it and my mom also did.After few weeks, we decided to give it try.He took my medical history and told my mom:"OTHERS HAVE BEEN FIGHTING THE SYMPTOMS BUT I AM GOING TO THE ROOT.He matched me with some drugs to lick only without water for three months. After 60days, i was already fed up because there was still no change.Just two weeks to the completion of the three months,i started noticing more energy in me cause prior to this time, i was always tired.The stomach upset were no longer there.For the first time, I started noticing the yellowish/whitish coating on my tongue were fading out and any time i pick up my tongue scraper to scrape my tongue,i noticed i was hurting myself because there was nothing much anymore to scrape off.I could breathe with my two nostrils.
I woke up one morning and really didn't feel the need to use a toothbrush because my breathe was just like that of a new born baby.Right then i declared victory and till date still victorious.That was how my misery came to an end.How much did we spend? 90 dollars for visit,150dollars for the drugs.

But one thing i honestly suffer from till date from that experience is that i hardly kiss and if you expect cunnilingus from me, sorry, you are wasting your time because i didn't how that whole thing started.One good thing about the experience was that, it confined me to my books since i couldn't hangout much.

So imagine going through middle school,high school and part of college with a mouth odor.Trust me,It is not an experience you would wish for your enemy.And here someone sits down and tell me bull-crap about homeopathy?

SECOND EXPERIENCE WITH HOMEOPATHY
Okay, just last year.I was having upper left abdominal pain somewhere underneath my rib cage or diaphragm.I went to a physician.First time he prescribed over the counter drug.No changes after 3weeks.I went back again,he ordered for abdominal x-ray and said: "we found something: "you don't have good bowel movement".He prescribed some drugs.After 6weeks of taking them, yet nothing changed and i have already spent over 2000 dollars.i decided i was not going back.I went to a homeopath(not the first one) September last year because i have since relocated.I told him my symptoms.He said, "you need this drug which he gave to me.Since November the pain has gone 7months.

Can somebody tell me if these were miracles or a pure medical intervention of homeopathy?While i do not discredit allopathy because of its usefulness to mankind, it does not address every medical issue of man and should therefore have respect for other medical counterparts who have devised means to act where it has failed.


Homeopathy might have defied 'scientificity' but it has not failed to reach its ultimate goal which is the restoration of man to good health.I will keep saying it that science is not everything.Nature and man himself are bigger and complex than science that science cannot still fully explore them.Therefore,subjecting the works of man to scientific inquiry as a sole determinant factor to evaluate their credibility is to limit the ability of man who himself is greater than science.Scientific inquiry like homeopathy is another product of man and therefore holds no superiority.Since 'scientificity' is our bone of contention, what is scientific about about scientific inquiry?What is its own verifiability?

Someone mentioned high life expectancy because of allopathy forgetting that man suffer more these days from myriad of toxicity and side effects from allopathic drugs which homeopathy does not have.

I need no scientific inquiry to tell me how homeopathy works.My responses to homeopathy are enough evidence for me.Call me the jingoistic homeopathic ambassador,i don't care for homeopathy has proven itself wise.

I have a sneaking suspicion that absolutely no one expects cunnilingus from you.
 
FIRST EXPERIENCE WITH HOMEOPATHY
Homeopathy good. Medicine bad. Something about cunnilingus.

SECOND EXPERIENCE WITH HOMEOPATHY
2000 dollars on something for bowel movements. Then homeopath cures with mystery oil.
Can somebody tell me if these were miracles or a medical intervention of homeopathy?
Allopathy should have respect for other medical counterparts.

Homeopathy might not be logical, but um, placebo effect works.

We not test stuff. Test stuff stupid.It be fine just taking guy word snake oil not kill you.

Homeopathy is above science. However it's practitioners are not above the law since they seem to go to jail everytime they try and treat a real illness.

Since 'scientificity' is our bone of contention, what is scientific about about scientific inquiry?What is its own verifiability?

Drugs are toxic

A few points:
1) I have a sneaking suspicion I am being trolled... hard. Damnit

2) You have the symptom/root thing mixed up. Homeopathy is all symptom management. That is how their treatment is set up. What causes X symptoms also treats X symptom . Tell me then, what was the root of your symptoms?

3) In random controlled trials, conventional antifungals have been shown to be superior (statistically significant) than homeopathy for candidiasis (what it sounds like you had, possibly as a result of antibiotics or AIDS, take your pick)

4) That stuffed you licked, was naturopathy, not homeopathy. It had active ingredients and wasn't diluted a billion or trillion times.

Next anecdote
5) Seriously, what laxative was he prescribing that cost $2000? I think you got ripped off or are lying.

6) I don't think anyone is saying medicine will treat everything.

7) As previously stated, I have some respect for other medical counterparts. Homeopathy is not a medical counterpart. Some naturopathy, some chiropractics, some acupuncture could be jammed into that category. Not homeopathy.

8) I don't think they were miracles or interventions by homeopathy. Sounds like a combination of placebo effect and gas pain.

9) You and I differ in what we consider sickness and therefore health. Arm pain and bad breath are NOT poor health- a nuisance, sure. Homeopathy "helps" people without true illness and with minor crap that can be "cured" by placebo or naturopathy. For real sickness, homeopathy is worthless and that is where homeopaths go to jail- when they try to treat real illness. I recommend if you do get actually sick, go to your homeopathy and see what happens. I'll make the arrangements for a casket.

10) Subjecting treatment to studies is how we know they work. Bridges are the works of men- should we not test those either before using them?

11) First, you asked what is scientific about scientific inquiry. That's like me asking what is what is so wood-like about wood furniture (um it's made of wood). To be fair, science is scientific because it involves a process of testing that is "verifiable" by it's reproducibility- that is to say you could re-do the experiment and get the same results. For a simple example, if you measured the speed of light in a vacuum under the same circumstances you get the same result every time.

12) I will agree that Homeopathy doesn't have side effects except possibly drowning in high enough "doses" ZING!
 
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A few points:
1) I have a sneaking suspicion I am being trolled... hard. Damnit

2) You have the symptom/root thing mixed up. Homeopathy is all symptom management. That is how their treatment is set up. What causes X symptoms also treats X symptom . Tell me then, what was the root of your symptoms?

3) In random controlled trials, conventional antifungals have been shown to be superior (statistically significant) than homeopathy for candidiasis (what it sounds like you had, possibly as a result of antibiotics or AIDS, take your pick)

4) That stuffed you licked, was naturopathy, not homeopathy. It had active ingredients and wasn't diluted a billion or trillion times.

Next anecdote
5) Seriously, what laxative was he prescribing that cost $2000? I think you got ripped off or are lying.

6) I don't think anyone is saying medicine will treat everything.

7) As previously stated, I have some respect for other medical counterparts. Homeopathy is not a medical counterpart. Some naturopathy, some chiropractics, some acupuncture could be jammed into that category. Not homeopathy.

8) I don't think they were miracles or interventions by homeopathy. Sounds like a combination of placebo effect and gas pain.

9) You and I differ in what we consider sickness and therefore health. Arm pain and bad breath are NOT poor health- a nuisance, sure. Homeopathy "helps" people without true illness and with minor crap that can be "cured" by placebo or naturopathy. For real sickness, homeopathy is worthless and that is where homeopaths go to jail- when they try to treat real illness. I recommend if you do get actually sick, go to your homeopathy and see what happens. I'll make the arrangements for a casket.

10) Subjecting treatment to studies is how we know they work. Bridges are the works of men- should we not test those either before using them?

11) First, you asked what is scientific about scientific inquiry. That's like me asking what is what is so wood-like about wood furniture (um it's made of wood). To be fair, science is scientific because it involves a process of testing that is "verifiable" by it's reproducibility- that is to say you could re-do the experiment and get the same results. For a simple example, if you measured the speed of light in a vacuum under the same circumstances you get the same result every time.

12) I will agree that Homeopathy doesn't have side effects except possibly drowning in high enough "doses" ZING!

2 Homeopathy goes with the 'law of similars' 'let like be cured by like'.At the same time, it does not just focus on symptoms alone,but the person in general and that is how they attack the root and not just the symptoms.Everything i had originated from my GI.While your fellow allopathic doctors were busy fighting my sinusitis with antibiotics not knowing it was fungi related because they thought every sinus problem is caused by bacteria, the homeopath went to the main cause.Mayo clinic recently published that chronic sinus infections are caused by fungus.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1999/09/990910080344.htm

3 Yes, it sounds really as candidiasis.But why didn't physicians identify it throughout the time i visited dentists,ENTS, and general practitioners?It is either they were incompetent or medical school does not address systemic candida overgrowth which many doctors have even admitted,

4 Homeopathy is not just liquid, they also come in tablet form

5 Yes, 2000 dollars all inclusive for the first visit and medication,x-tray bumped it up,transportation,parking spot and what have you.That is what you get these days from hospitals.Yet, you get less results and they have you coming back all the time for the same problem.
 
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OK! Read these two personal experiences with patience and give me an answer.Then i will make this debate full time for anybody who is ready.IF YOU CANNOT READ IT WITH PATIENCE THAT IS WHY HOMEOPATHY WILL NEVER OR HAS NEVER WORKED FOR YOU.

FIRST EXPERIENCE WITH HOMEOPATHY

My problem started early 2000 with a mouth odor.Yes, i suddenly just realized people avoided me when i talk to them and even offered gums.My sisters confirmed the change and so my journey for a solution began.I thought maybe i was not giving much attention to dental hygiene even though i was very much aware no one used a toothbrush or floss more than i do.I subsequently involved mouth washes and sophisticated tooth brushes but all to no avail.I ran to dentists; they assured me i was okay but still cleaning were done for me hydrogen peroxide to gargle with at home.Still, the problem was persistent.I ran to allopathic physicians and after series of tests,they said i was fine.They always imposed it on me it was psychological but the the physical symptoms were very glaring.

Now, this is 2003, the symptoms have aggravated into sinusitis with post-nasal drip and whitish/yellowish tongue coating coupled with severe stomach problems accompanied with noise all the time.I went to a general practitioner, he confirmed me okay but referred me to Otolaryngologist (ENT).He confirmed i had sinusitis and so my journey with antibiotics began.

This is 2006,If i haven't spent any personal money,my family has spent close to 11,000 dollars already but still, nothing had changed.My sister brought a news paper to me one day and said "look at what i saw on this news paper". I read through it, and it read: ARE YOU BOTHERED BY ANY MEDICAL PROBLEMS NO ONE HAS BEEN ABLE TO CURE?DR.......name..........HOMEOPATHY MEDICAL CENTER IS YOUR LAST BUS STOP.I immediately discredited it and my mom also did.After few weeks, we decided to give it try.He took my medical history and told my mom:"OTHERS HAVE BEEN FIGHTING THE SYMPTOMS BUT I AM GOING TO THE ROOT.He matched me with some drugs to lick only without water for three months. After 60days, i was already fed up because there was still no change.Just two weeks to the completion of the three months,i started noticing more energy in me cause prior to this time, i was always tired.The stomach upset were no longer there.For the first time, I started noticing the yellowish/whitish coating on my tongue were fading out and any time i pick up my tongue scraper to scrape my tongue,i noticed i was hurting myself because there was nothing much anymore to scrape off.I could breathe with my two nostrils.
I woke up one morning and really didn't feel the need to use a toothbrush because my breathe was just like that of a new born baby.Right then i declared victory and till date still victorious.That was how my misery came to an end.How much did we spend? 90 dollars for visit,150dollars for the drugs.

But one thing i honestly suffer from till date from that experience is that i hardly kiss and if you expect cunnilingus from me, sorry, you are wasting your time because i didn't know how that whole thing started at first and now i try to be extra careful.One good thing about the experience was that, it confined me to my books since i couldn't hangout much.

So imagine going through middle school,high school and part of college with a mouth odor.Trust me,It is not an experience you would wish for your enemy.And here someone sits down and tell me bull-crap about homeopathy?

SECOND EXPERIENCE WITH HOMEOPATHY
Okay, just last year.I was having upper left abdominal pain somewhere underneath my rib cage or diaphragm.I went to a physician.First time he prescribed over the counter drug.No changes after 3weeks.I went back again,he ordered for abdominal x-ray and said: "we found something: "you don't have good bowel movement".He prescribed some drugs.After 6weeks of taking them, yet nothing changed and i have already spent over 2000 dollars.i decided i was not going back.I went to a homeopath(not the first one) September last year because i have since relocated.I told him my symptoms.He said, "you need this drug which he gave to me.Since November the pain has gone 7months.

Can somebody tell me if these were miracles or a pure medical intervention of homeopathy?While i do not discredit allopathy because of its usefulness to mankind, it does not address every medical issue of man and should therefore have respect for other medical counterparts who have devised means to act where it has failed.


Homeopathy might have defied 'scientificity' but it has not failed to reach its ultimate goal which is the restoration of man to good health.I will keep saying it that science is not everything.Nature and man himself are bigger and complex than science that science cannot still fully explore them.Therefore,subjecting the works of man to scientific inquiry as a sole determinant factor to evaluate their credibility is to limit the ability of man who himself is greater than science.Scientific inquiry like homeopathy is another product of man and therefore holds no superiority.Since 'scientificity' is our bone of contention, what is scientific about about scientific inquiry?What is its own verifiability?

Someone mentioned high life expectancy because of allopathy forgetting that man suffer more these days from myriad of toxicity and side effects from allopathic drugs which homeopathy does not have.

I need no scientific inquiry to tell me how homeopathy works.My responses to homeopathy are enough evidence for me.Call me the jingoistic homeopathic ambassador,i don't care for homeopathy has proven itself wise.

I..... I've been mistaken. I see now that allopathic treatment cannot treat everything. You have made it clear to me that homeopathy is well suited to treat hypochondria. Thank you
 
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2 Homeopathy goes with the 'law of similars' 'let like be cured by like'.At the same time, it does not just focus on symptoms alone,but the person in general and that is how they attack the root and not just the symptoms.Everything i had originated from my GI.While your fellow allopathic doctors were busy fighting my sinusitis with antibiotics not knowing it was fungi related because they thought every sinus problem is caused by bacteria, the homeopath went to the main cause.Mayo clinic recently published that chronic sinus infections are caused by fungus.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1999/09/990910080344.htm

3 Yes, it sounds really as candidiasis.But why didn't physicians identify it throughout the time i visited dentists,ENTS, and general practitioners?It is either they were incompetent or medical school does not address systemic candida overgrowth which many doctors have even admitted,

4 Homeopathy is not just liquid, they also come in tablet form

5 Yes, 2000 dollars all inclusive for the first visit and medication,x-tray bumped it up,transportation,parking spot and what have you.That is what you get these days from hospitals.Yet, you get less results and they have you coming back all the time for the same problem.

QUICK SOMEONE PHONE CONGRESS!!!! We need to include parking passes in order to fix healthcare!
 
I suspect this guy is highly non compliant. It's gotta be something bc if he had fungal mouth whatever I doubt a multi tiered approach (md dds) would have missed something so simple. Also, the statement that modern medicine does not address fungal infection is more a result of personal perception, exposure to common illness, and ignorance on the subject.
 
I suspect this guy is highly non compliant. It's gotta be something bc if he had fungal mouth whatever I doubt a multi tiered approach (md dds) would have missed it.

Lol you would be surprised. I'm not saying this was the case in any way whatsoever, and I don't know what goes into diagnosing whatever this guy's problem was. But... there are a lot of ******* physicians, in EVERY field (yes, even the ones who make it to the ROAD specialties). You may wonder how this is possible, but it is. Maybe they don't give a **** and that's the real reason why. Either way I'm not blanketing all physicians (I'm going to be one), but don't assume a super-duper specialist can't be clueless. I'm also not supporting this guy's homeopathic beliefs either.
 
But multiples simply not even considering fungus? IMO it is more likely the gu didn't hear the answer he wanted and wrote them off. I've seen pts like that. "what do you mean you can't give me a magic pill to cure the thing I've convinced myself that I have?" 🙄
 
I..... I've been mistaken. I see now that allopathic treatment cannot treat everything. You have made it clear to me that homeopathy is well suited to treat hypochondria. Thank you
And what is hypochondriac about it where the symptoms were visibly glaring?This is the stupid defense allopathy takes when it cannot provide answers.They hinge it on the person as hypochondria.
 
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But multiples simply not even considering fungus? IMO it is more likely the gu didn't hear the answer he wanted and wrote them off. I've seen pts like that. "what do you mean you can't give me a magic pill to cure the thing I've convinced myself that I have?" 🙄
so what cured the yellowish/whitish tongue?The sinusitis and stomach noises and the post-nasal drip( constant swallowing of mucus with disgusting sound)?

make a good point or i won't respond to you again.
 
But multiples simply not even considering fungus? IMO it is more likely the gu didn't hear the answer he wanted and wrote them off. I've seen pts like that. "what do you mean you can't give me a magic pill to cure the thing I've convinced myself that I have?" 🙄

You are probably right about that.

I've also seen docs do the "lolantibiotics" treatments too though haha. I think a lot of physicians could do a better job of conveying what they are doing. I don't know what this patient's experience was exactly, but instead of just prescribing antibiotics, give a little overview of what the doc thinks is going on, what reasonable outcome of the treatment is, and what are some options if it doesn't work. A lot of times doctors are thinking a lot more than they're telling the patient (which is always going to happen), but leaving patient in the dark can make the patient think the doc doesn't know what the **** is going on (even though he/she does).

Either way, this guy was helped by something here. Whether it was homeopathy or placebo? I guess the bottom line is that he's pretty happy about it so I won't knock him for trying it.
 
You are probably right about that.

I've also seen docs do the "lolantibiotics" treatments too though haha. I think a lot of physicians could do a better job of conveying what they are doing. I don't know what this patient's experience was exactly, but instead of just prescribing antibiotics, give a little overview of what the doc thinks is going on, what reasonable outcome of the treatment is, and what are some options if it doesn't work. A lot of times doctors are thinking a lot more than they're telling the patient (which is always going to happen), but leaving patient in the dark can make the patient think the doc doesn't know what the **** is going on (even though he/she does).

Either way, this guy was helped by something here. Whether it was homeopathy or placebo? I guess the bottom line is that he's pretty happy about it so I won't knock him for trying it.

Go look at the quackwatch link I posted at the top of this page. Your big paragraph makes some great points, all of which are true. but pt ignorance is not a valid support for homeopathy
 
so what cured the yellowish/whitish tongue?The sinusitis and stomach noises and the post-nasal drip( constant swallowing of mucus with disgusting sound)?

make a good point or i won't respond to you again.

You shouldn't get my hopes up like this.......

I'm not a yellowish/whitishologist so I'm not sure about that particular and succinct decease descriptor
 
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Go look at the quackwatch link I posted at the top of this page. Your big paragraph makes some great points, all of which are true. but pt ignorance is not a valid support for homeopathy

I never once supported it, but keeping in the perspective of the patient is also helpful as a doctor. Hypothetical: my patient has been bumped from doc to doc with no results (whether his story is true or not, this does happen), and he chooses alternative therapy (even if it's bull****) for a condition that's troubling him. I'm not going to sit there and judge him for a single second or scold him.

This guy has had bad experiences in medicine and it's shaped his outlook justified or not, it happens with many patients.
 
I don't disagree with that. But my counterpoint is: now we've identified the problem. Next step is fixing it.... (i.e. problem w perception)
 
You shouldn't get my hopes up like this.......

I'm not a yellowish/whitishologist so I'm not sure about that particular and succinct decease descriptor

Not too good;try other attacks.Those ended six years ago.I am super clean than you are because i went through homeopathy and never remained the same.Your type are the immature doctors i see everyday at the hallway everyday and mourn the future of medicine.
 
Again, please. Where are you from?
 
well this conversation has just taken off, hasn't it? it's empirically frustrating to many (most?) MD's that merritt-less practices are endorsed and ardently believed by some people. we try to convince the advocates of homeopathy and other 'techniques' of their wrongheadedness, but will never succeed, partially due to their false belief that anecdotes are evidence and that the shortcomings of modern medicine imply the truth of its detractors. homeopathy and other pseudoscientific fields couch themselves in appealing language like "getting to the route" and "changing forces," and natural healing, but it's smoke and mirrors to disguise the lack of substance, proven efficacy, or application of scientific principles that are associated with the treatment. to the public, many of homeopathy et.al.'s explanations and assertions sound reasonable if not appealing, whereas these assertions are typically devoid of evidence or any deference for society's understanding of biology or chemistry.
 
Just looking for reconciling factors here. I mean.... You even TYPE with an accent (spelling A+, but verb conjugation is off) so I wonder if a foreign medical system explains some of these things
 
I've picked a few distinct threads on something i believe in and stood my ground. But sure I'm 17 w google. That's gotta hurt w how poorly you're hanging w the debate
 
Please make no further mention of my small tits. That is hurtful
 
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Just looking for reconciling factors here. I mean.... You even TYPE with an accent (spelling A+, but verb conjugation is off) so I wonder if a foreign medical system explains some of these things

Good job!Arbiter of English Language,right? I hardly proofread that is why i edit some after i have posted.All the same,the point has been made. Thank God our highly esteemed professor SpecterGT260 understood the message.This is a scholarly colloquium not a court room.Leave background check for DHS.Hey,watch your too many fallacies!
 
Im just saying I've seen plenty of bad interwebz grammar. Yours was distinct as it was only conjugation error. Im a little curious though bc you could have just said "I'm from N'Yowk" and put this to rest. But you didn't....
 
I have open mindedness for naturopathy, acupuncture for chronic pain, even chiropractic for low back pain (have even gone to a chiropractor a bunch of times... gasp).

I do have some concern about naturopathy for a few reasons
1) The naturopathic medicines are often compounds with physiological actions but those things that have the phsyiological actions have not been well purified and so you get a dirty drug.

2) Naturopathic medicines often interact with traditional medicines and let's be honest, there isn't a lot of communication between doctors and naturopaths.

3) Naturopaths often (but probably less frequently than homeopaths) have misgivings about true medicine and will push their patients away from mainstream and proven medicine. For little stuff I couldn't care less. For true illness that we have lifesaving therapies for, it pisses me off to no end.


For homeopathy I have even more concerns

1) Homeopaths tend to be cultish in it's beliefs. You kind of have to be to believe something that makes no sense.
2) The cultishness leads to them push their patients away from traditional medicines, especially at times of severe sickness. Their "medicines" are innocuous- basically water- but the effect they can have on how the person gets treatment can be severe and life threatening.

READ THIS
I have personally seen someone who was in his early 40s undergoing chemo with phenomenal results for AML with favorable cytogenetics. He was on his way to a bone marrow transplant and need to finish up another round of chemo before his BMT. The oncologists felt he had roughly a 70% probability of cure (massively high in AML where traditional survival rates are in the 20-40% at 5 years). He decided to see a homeopath who pushed him away from going back to get those treatments or a BMT. He re-presents a few months later (when I took care of him) with such advanced leukemia there was nothing we could do. He got palliation and died during that hospitalization. He could have been cured and almost definitely would have lived longer had it not been for the homeopath who beguiled him into not going back to hopkins for treatment. That takes some nerve. He and his wife kept saying, "I wish we came back here for treatment." It was heart breaking. I should have gotten the name of that homeopath and written him a letter but I never did.

For homeopathy, the entire tenants are ridiculous and bunk. Now at high doses, all homeopathy becomes, is naturopathy which could have some reasonable effect. At homeopathic doses it is nothing more than water with an expensive price tag.

In the end, homeopathy is dangerous because it engenders it's practitioners with a feeling they know better despite having no evidence. They push sick people away from real treatment by using their fear of death and inherent mistrust of authority. At best when the patients are not really sick, it is harmless. At worst it kills people.

I understand your concern and where it is coming from but my personal experience is entirely opposite from yours. That is all I wish to say at the moment. Thanks for staying on the topic.
 
Im just saying I've seen plenty of bad interwebz grammar. Yours was distinct as it was only conjugation error. Im a little curious though bc you could have just said "I'm from N'Yowk" and put this to rest. But you didn't....

Ok prof,i will take out time to learn conjugation so i can troll perfectly around like you.Go get a life!
 
And how much water should I take w it to make sure it's the best life there is?
This thread is about spent. From here we can only really repeat ourselves
 
Maybe just show the patients this.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_1L55KWasM[/YOUTUBE]
 
Maybe just show the patients this.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_1L55KWasM[/YOUTUBE]

Hahah, I love that video.

"So you killed your patient with cancer or heart disease... or bronchitis, flu, chicken pox or measles. But when someone comes in with a vague sense of unease or a touch of the nerves or just more money than sense you'll be there with a bottle of basically just water in one hand and a huge invoice in the other"

Classic
 
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