Hopkins vs. UCSF

[Bear1220]

Hey guys,

I've never used SDN before. I'm from CA and I was so sure I was going to UCSF. But I got off of Hopkins' waitlist last week and I have to give Hopkins an answer ASAP. My friend who knows I've been struggling with this decision suggested I try SDN for some opinions. Any information/opinions/comparisons would be fantastic.

Good luck to all those just starting the process!

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[mdmike24]

It depends on what you're looking for. Hopkins is a great school but I think you're better off being a student at UCSF. The faculty at SF seem to value teaching a lot more than those at Hopkins. And SF is pass/fail as opposed to high honors/honors/high pass/ pass/ fail (essentially A, B, C, D, F) at hopkins.

Another consideration is location. San Francisco is awesome. Have you ever been to Baltimore? And I'm not talking Fell's Point here, but the area around Hopkins Med. It's a disaster.

 

[MacGyver]

The faculty at SF seem to value teaching a lot more than those at Hopkins. .

Uhh, sorry but thats absolute bull****. I agree with everything else you said, but the statement above is flat out wrong.

 

[Benjo]

Seriously Mdmike, where do you get your information? I rarely agree with a post by MacGyver, but he is right about Hopkins and teaching. I can't speak on UCSF because I did not apply or interview there and have no experience with them, but I know Hopkisn pretty well (having lived in Baltimore and worked there quite a bit), and it is a well-known fact that faculty flock to Hopkins for the opportunity to teach the best of the best (their terminology). I shadowed a neurosurgeon there when I was in high school, and he gave me books to read, and even pimped me once while I was observing surgery (obviously an easyu question). Hopkins faculty love to teach, so don't let that factor into your decision, OP. I'd go with Hopkins, because it is the best, but geography might be that important to you.
GOod luck with your decision.

 

[Benjo]

After reading my post I realized that others may raise the typical objections of anecdotal evidence dictating my conclusions. I just gave that example as an indication of the passion for teaching. Obviously, my conclusions on Hopkisn as a teaching hospital are guided by much more--conversations and experience with med students, residents, faculty, my interview there, etc.--so don't think I am inducing a passion for teaching from my experience with one zealous faculty member.

 

[mdmike24]

Benjo, we seem to have had different experiences. I did research at Hopkins Hospital for a year and a half and know quite a few med students there. My impression was that teaching was not the highest priority of the faculty. And if you dig a little deeper with med students, that becomes clear. But obviously you've had a different impression of hte place.

Don't get me wrong, I think medicine at Hopkins is as good as it gets. But as a medical STUDENT, I think you're better off at UCSF. Hopkins is not as competitive as people make it out to be, but students there really are under a lot of stress. The atmosphere at SF is much more relaxed.

When David Kessler left Yale for UCSF, he said he made the move in large part because SF was the nation's leader in medical education. This may not be of much help, but it's interesting to say the least.

"UCSF is the most dynamic place in American medicine today," said Kessler. "Over the last decade it has led the country, teaching all of us how to educate students, and how to take down the walls between departments in the basic sciences. The faculty at UCSF is the most exciting anywhere -- no where have I seen such an alignment of purpose, such a focused intensity across a university."

 

[bigbaubdi]

They are both fantastic schools, which will offer you fantastic opportunities for medical education, research and residency placements!

At this stage, it comes down to things like location (San Fran vs. Baltimore) and intangibles. Did you feel that you were a better "fit" at UCSF vs. Hopkins?

Also are you a CA resident? Does financial make a difference here? Would you prefer to stay in CA for residency? Do you have family or friends in SF or Baltimore?

These are some of the things that I might think about...

 

[bigbaubdi]

Another consideration is location. San Francisco is awesome. Have you ever been to Baltimore? And I'm not talking Fell's Point here, but the area around Hopkins Med. It's a disaster.

I am not going to lie to you, SF is a great city. Baltimore can't really compare to SF.

However growing up in Mount Washington, I have found that Baltimore is a nice city that has a lot of quirks and charms. DO NOT decide against Hopkins b/c of Baltimore.

 

[fava]

When David Kessler left Yale for UCSF, he said he made the move in large part because SF was the nation's leader in medical education. This may not be of much help, but it's interesting to say the least.

"UCSF is the most dynamic place in American medicine today," said Kessler. "Over the last decade it has led the country, teaching all of us how to educate students, and how to take down the walls between departments in the basic sciences. The faculty at UCSF is the most exciting anywhere -- no where have I seen such an alignment of purpose, such a focused intensity across a university."

to be fair, though, i'm sure he would've had plenty o' nice things to say about hopkins as well, had he been accepting a job there.

 

[fava]

btw, bear, how much of a factor is tuition for you??

 

[Bear1220]

I'm from CA so it's wonderful that I can get a UCSF education for relatively less. However, tuition's on the rise with the UC schools. It'll be 21K for the incoming first years with a couple more increases to come (probably a few thousand more). It's still a significant different compared to a private school, but the difference isn't nearly as large as it used to be a few years ago. Tuition's important but the disparities are slowly closing thanks to the Governator. Also, the cost of living in SF is probably much higher than in Baltimore. Having gone to school at UC Berkeley, I've got a lot of friends in the Bay Area and I'm very familiar with the area in general. I've never lived on the east coast and it'd be nice to try something new even though Baltimore isn't as glamorized as SF. Is it worth sucking it up in Baltimore for 4 years? I'm assured that I'll be getting a fantastic education at both places. Will I gain a significant advantage in furthering my career by going to Hopkins med over UCSF?

Thanks for the great replies!

 

[Bear1220]

Oh, by the way, David Kessler's an amazing man; HMS MD, UChicago JD, Hopkins Peds, FDA Commissioner, Yale SOM Dean, UCSF SOM Dean & Vice Chancellor.

I read that he gets paid the most out of anyone in the UC System. More than the UC Hospital CEOs and even more than the UC President. Maybe that's also why he has such nice thinks to say about UCSF. =)

Check out his book if you've got time to spare this summer. It's titled "A Question of Intent: A Great American Battle With a Deadly Industry."
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...102-6469849-1616110?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

 

[bigbaubdi]

How much time do you have to make a decision? Do you have a chance to revisit Hopkins and the neighborhood around it?

Here are the most recent match lists of both schools:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=110559&highlight=2004+match+lists

 

[MacGyver]

Benjo, we seem to have had different experiences. I did research at Hopkins Hospital for a year and a half and know quite a few med students there. My impression was that teaching was not the highest priority of the faculty. And if you dig a little deeper with med students, that becomes clear.

thats crap. I dont attend Hopkins, but I guarantee you I know more people than you do there. Put your money where your mouth is and start naming people. I know far more med students there than you do, and I'm prepared to name them.

I think you are taking one opinion and making up lies about lots of people not liking the teaching at Hopkins.

but students there really are under a lot of stress.

Oh really? why dont you give evidence to back this up. I want people's names.

When David Kessler left Yale for UCSF, he said he made the move in large part because SF was the nation's leader in medical education. This may not be of much help, but it's interesting to say the least.

"UCSF is the most dynamic place in American medicine today," said Kessler. "Over the last decade it has led the country, teaching all of us how to educate students, and how to take down the walls between departments in the basic sciences. The faculty at UCSF is the most exciting anywhere -- no where have I seen such an alignment of purpose, such a focused intensity across a university."

1) You dont know David Kessler.

2) People changing jobs ALWAYS issue BS flowery rhetoric. If Kessler was going to Harvard, he'd be saying the same things. Ditto for Hopkins.

3) You are a fool if you believe Kessler's comments are indicative of UCSF vs Hopkins as a whole.

4) I want a link to the comments you attribute to Kessler. Cite your source, please.

 

[A.D.O.R.]

this was debated last year. do a search for "hopkins vs. ucsf," "mgmd" (a member name) or search for my member name. congrats and good luck.

 

[devildoc2]

I know faculty at UCSF who said that UCSF med students were not as prepared clinically as Harvard, Hopkins, or Cornell. He taught previously at all those institutions before going to UCSF.

 

[Bear1220]

I know faculty at UCSF who said that UCSF med students were not as prepared clinically as Harvard, Hopkins, or Cornell. He taught previously at all those institutions before going to UCSF.

That's interesting. At UCSF, the faculty/administration stressed that they were very strong clinically because UCSF is the only medical school in two very large cities, namely San Francisco and Oakland, easily giving students a wide range of clinical opportunities. It's got a number of great large hospitals (Moffitt/Long, SF General, SF VA, etc). Hopkins, on the other hand, has pretty much just one really great large hospital (correct me if I'm wrong). I figure at UCSF, the medical heirarchy is less of an issue because of the California / public school ethic, which the faculty/administration also stressed. Is that really an issue at Hopkins or Harvard, which they made it seem to be?

Oh, and I've got a couple weeks to decide but I'd like to give them an answer sooner than later out of respect for Hopkins, UCSF, and fellow prospectives who are waitlisted at either school. Unfortunately, I won't have any extra time to check out the school but I've already been there a couple times.

Hey, since some of you guys seem to know a number of the students, what're they like? Do they follow tend to follow the stereotype? It seems natural that putting a group of people together who were premed (and good at it) and having (essentially) grades could create substantial unhealthy competition. I don't want to feel like I'm sacrificing to go to Hopkins...

 

[IlianaSedai]

Where do you want to stay in the long run, Bear?

If you're pretty open to going all over the country, then I think it makes little difference where you go.

On the other hand, if your girlfriend's in the Bay Area and you wanna marry her and buy a house and have your kids go to the same high school you did, I'd go with UCSF. If you invest time into getting to know people, research departments, etc in one location, that's your foot into a possible residency and eventually a job that location. If you already know people and they already know you, that's in your favor locally when all else (i.e. prestige) is pretty equal.

However, if you don't care, either place will help you land a residency where you want after graduation.

 

[Bear1220]

Where do you want to stay in the long run, Bear?

I'd like to end up in California eventually but I don't mind going somewhere else in the meantime if it's worth it and I'll be happy. If I did decide on Hopkins, I don't think I'd be significantly harder for me to have a career in California even though going to UCSF would give me a foot in the door.

Ideally, I'd like to choose largely based on my future classmates because they'll probably dictate much of my medical school experience. I was thoroughly impressed by the 4th years at Hopkins; I wanted them to be my doctors! Stereotypically, however, Hopkins' medical school's atmosphere is supposedly less collegial among students. I don't want to be premed all over again! On the other hand, I had a blast during UCSF's accepted students' weekend; it seemed that the prospects and the students really wanted to be there (it's not a school you go to so you can go brag to Joe Schmoe).

 

[Arsenic]

wow, bear1220. Either school is going to take you wherever you want for residency, they are both outstanding.

I'd personally go to Hopkins if given the choice, why? Hopkins was always a dream school of mine, probably of a lot of pre-meds. I just always associated it as being the best place a person can go to become a doctor... like the best of the best. I know now thats not true, schools like UCSF, Harvard, Washington U, etc... provide just as good of an education but... I personally just wouldn't be able to turn down Hopkins.

Since you asked us for our advice, make sure you let us know what you decide! Either way, major congrats!

 

[IlianaSedai]

I'd like to end up in California eventually but I don't mind going somewhere else in the meantime if it's worth it and I'll be happy. If I did decide on Hopkins, I don't think I'd be significantly harder for me to have a career in California even though going to UCSF would give me a foot in the door.

Yeah, I agree, and sounds like you're thinking this through in a pretty good way. Having not researched either school thoroughly at all, I will admit that I lean toward UCSF because San Francisco (the city) specifically (not even Hayward or somewhere like that) is a place that I'd want to stay long term. I'm not really open to southern California more than I would be to a different location in the country -- so in your case, if it's not very Bay Area specific the geography probably doesn't matter so much at all.

 

[mdmike24]

thats crap. I dont attend Hopkins, but I guarantee you I know more people than you do there. Put your money where your mouth is and start naming people. I know far more med students there than you do, and I'm prepared to name them.

I think you are taking one opinion and making up lies about lots of people not liking the teaching at Hopkins.



Oh really? why dont you give evidence to back this up. I want people's names.



1) You dont know David Kessler.

2) People changing jobs ALWAYS issue BS flowery rhetoric. If Kessler was going to Harvard, he'd be saying the same things. Ditto for Hopkins.

3) You are a fool if you believe Kessler's comments are indicative of UCSF vs Hopkins as a whole.

4) I want a link to the comments you attribute to Kessler. Cite your source, please.

wow. you are a very angry person. first off, take it easy. second, i'm not making up lies. i was just expressing things that i learned during the time i spent at hopkins that i thought might help the op. i know four students at hopkins med pretty well. i'm not going to "name names". that wouldn't be fair to them for me to list their names on a website that a lot premeds and med students go to. don't get me wrong, they all loved their school, but they were stressed more than other med students i know (at places like ucsf, yale, cornell) and they cited other concerns about the school that i articulated above.

i never claimed to know david kessler. but i don't see how that's relevant. if you notice, before i quoted kessler i said that the quote may not be that helpful (since the man saying these things just accepted a position at sf), but that it's interesting to see what a greatly accomplished physician has to say about why he chose to leave a great institution like yale for ucsf. i never realized how great ucsf was until very recently. but the more i've read about the place, the more impressed i am with it. i don't think many people in medicine would disagree with kessler on this one. there's amazing things happening over there.

http://www.hivandhepatitis.com/health/062503a.html

having said all that, the op has a great choice ahead of him. i recommend ucsf for quality of life, quality of teaching, and the upside that comes with having an entirely new campus.

 

[bigbaubdi]

Hey, since some of you guys seem to know a number of the students, what're they like? Do they follow tend to follow the stereotype? It seems natural that putting a group of people together who were premed (and good at it) and having (essentially) grades could create substantial unhealthy competition. I don't want to feel like I'm sacrificing to go to Hopkins...

A better question might be the following - if you were put in a situation in which 80% of the students received a passing grade and about 10-15% of students got honors, how would you react to it? Would you say, "who gives a damn, I am going to get a P anyway" or would you go the extra mile to get that "H"?

Edit: I think the notion that Hopkins med students are hypercompetitive is hogwash however. Most of the med students I know at Hopkins love their school.

 

[Harps]

A better question might be the following - if you were put in a situation in which 80% of the students received a passing grade and about 10-15% of students got honors, how would you react to it? Would you say, "who gives a damn, I am going to get a P anyway" or would you go the extra mile to get that "H"?

If I recall correctly, UCSF has H/P/F, right? Also, clinical training is more relevant for residency....the bread and butter of clinical traning in medical schools should be equivalent almost everywhere. I just had a discussion with a 1st year UCSF resident, who felt that teaching at UCSF was fairly minimal....I have not had a chance to ask a graduating UCSF medical student about the clinical training during medical education. Students and many people on these boards seem to confuse the location of the hospitals with QUALITY of clinical training...well that's only my impression. May be I am wrong! Anyhow, not diverting this thread from the initial question by the OP, I've heard that Hopkins is a mecca of medicine just like HMS. So, take that into consideration.....when considering your choices. BTW, you're one lucky dawg to be in this position Good luck and CONGRATULATIONS!!

-Harps

 

[mdmike24]

If I recall correctly, UCSF has H/P/F, right?
-Harps

First two years are straight pass/fail. clerkship years are h/p/f.

 

[Harps]

First two years are straight pass/fail. clerkship years are h/p/f.

Thanks! I guess I was trying to convey that both schools have some sort of heirarchy I know UCSF has AOA, what about JHU?

-Harps

 

[bigbaubdi]

Thanks! I guess I was trying to convey that both schools have some sort of heirarchy I know UCSF has AOA, what about JHU?

-Harps

JHU has AOA

 

[bigbaubdi]

I was thoroughly impressed by the 4th years at Hopkins; I wanted them to be my doctors! Stereotypically, however, Hopkins' medical school's atmosphere is supposedly less collegial among students. I don't want to be premed all over again! On the other hand, I had a blast during UCSF's accepted students' weekend; it seemed that the prospects and the students really wanted to be there (it's not a school you go to so you can go brag to Joe Schmoe).

I wouldn't worry so much about collegiality. In doing research at JHH alongside med students for 3+ years, I have found that Hopkins' environment, though it may be intense, is definitely collegial.

 

[Bear1220]

i never realized how great ucsf was until very recently. but the more i've read about the place, the more impressed i am with it. i don't think many people in medicine would disagree with kessler on this one. there's amazing things happening over there

UCSF certainly is a fantastic place. It doesn't carry the weight that Hopkins does because it's only achieved such prominence over the past 20 or so years because it used to be more of a state school. Being the only medical school in SF, it gets a lot of money. It's surprisingly wealthy for a public school. Honestly, even though I'm originally from Southern California, I'd never heard of the school until I began college. I've gained a tremendous amount of respect for it over the years. I like the democratic, humble spirit of public schools. And, of course, I like that it's in California; it makes it more convenient for me.

However, how does one turn down Johns Hopkins where one knows one is guaranteed a fantastic education as evidenced by the school's prominent faculty and alumni? UCSF does have some prominent alumni (the Surgeon General and the CDC Director) but, as I mentioned earlier, it hasn't been in medicine's limelight nearly as long as JHU has to have a tradition of fantastic graduates.

I guess my only reassurance is that I'll get a great education at either place and I'm incredibly lucky to be in this predicament.

 

[doepug]

Congrats!

You can't go wrong here. Really.

Hopkins is fabulous. I love it here, so I signed on for another 6 years. Please don't hesitate to PM me with any questions you have about Hopkins.

Cheers,
doepug (Hopkins MD '04)

 

[MacGyver]

i know four students at hopkins med pretty well. i'm not going to "name names". that wouldn't be fair to them for me to list their names on a website that a lot premeds and med students go to. don't get me wrong, they all loved their school, but they were stressed more than other med students i know (at places like ucsf, yale, cornell) and they cited other concerns about the school that i articulated above.

Yeah, and I know 8 people who go to UCSF. They said that they are disappointed in their clinical training, and that the attendings dont let them do very much.

My 8 people trumps your 4 people at Hopkins, so what do you have to say about that?

having said all that, the op has a great choice ahead of him. i recommend ucsf for quality of life, quality of teaching, and the upside that comes with having an entirely new campus.

Quality of life? Absolutely better at UCSF. Better teaching? Absolute bull****.

 

[kokonut]

Yeah, and I know 8 people who go to UCSF. They said that they are disappointed in their clinical training, and that the attendings dont let them do very much.

My 8 people trumps your 4 people at Hopkins, so what do you have to say about that?

It would be nice if Souljah or some other UCSFer were here to rebut this absurd statement, but the implications of what you say are not even remotely true. I can't quite tell whether you are purposefully trying to be ludicrous or not, but if you're not ...

To start off with, I find it extremely difficult to believe that 100% of the eight people you know agree that the clinical training at UCSF is "disappointing." It seems unlikely that 100% of any group of eight medical students would feel the same way about anything.

Furthermore, I will be attending HMS in the fall, but I previously had a difficult decision between UCSF and Hopkins. Because of this, I spoke with over 30 people from the two schools combined, 14 of whom I know on a personal basis. Almost everybody I spoke with from UCSF was thrilled with the quality of the clinical years there. They raved about how UCSF had one of the top VAs in the country, one of the top tertiary-care centers, one of the top county hospitals, access to migrant worker / disadvantaged populations in Fresno, etc. How the exposure you get and the people you learn from are fantastic. How people there are dedicated to teaching. For you to imply that everyone at UCSF (or at least a large proportion) is "disappointed in their clinical training" is just patently wrong.

I am not going to argue that UCSF's teaching trumps Hopkins. Hopkins trains medical students VERY well, and I talked to two impartial people who believed that the training at Hopkins was best in breed. However, by and large, most of the attendings, fellows, and residents I spoke with believed the differences in training to be insignificant, and suggested that I choose based on quality of life. Either way, it's misleading and preposterous to suggest that UCSF students are poorly trained and disappointed.

 

[souljah1]

it's misleading and preposterous to suggest that UCSF students are poorly trained and disappointed.

i agree whole-heartedly.

i think i can speak for the majority of both my class and for many of my friends who are now fourth years here when I say that we are very happy so far with our clinical experience. sure there may be a few people who are disappointed, but they would most likely be disappointed anywhere. long hours, low on the totem pole, and responsibilities can sometimes make some people sour..they exist at every school.

also, as far as attendings not letting people do very much....i know quite a few people who, as second years, have done LPs, drawn ABGs and venous blood, sewn lacerations, tapped ascitic abdomens, etc. to add to that, i'm in my first rotation in third year so far, but i already know plenty of people who have done procedures, including deliveries, making incisions, chest tube placement, and one who has put in central lines. the attendings and residents will let you do as much as you feel comfortable doing when you assert yourself as someone who is interested in learning procedures. i'm on my neurology rotation right now and we are expected to do some LPs during this rotation.

students get a ton of autonomy at the VA, SFGH, and even more so if we go down to Fresno (for those that are interested in that area of medicine). it is a bit more difficult to do procedures and actively take part in assisting surgeries, etc at Moffit, but it is still done - albeit to a lesser degree.

i'll make this statement again. take into consideration the opinions of people who attend the school's that you are considering. weigh all opinions and determine how they resonate with your gut feelings, etc. i know sdn is an incredibly helpful arena, however sometimes people feel a little too comfortable spreading around information when they don't really know what they are talking about. i will also take this into consideration when applying for residency. i'll be talking to interns, residents, etc

to the poster above who is considering ucsf or hopkins...best of luck to you with whatever you decide. it is not so much as where you go, but what you do with it once you are there. if you have any questions about ucsf, feel free to get in touch. it is a great place and i am still very glad to be here.

 

[Bear1220]

souljah1,

I appreciate your perspective. I've got about a week to decide. I'm still leaning towards UCSF...
It's definitely a very hard school to beat if you're a California resident!

--Bear

 

[mdmike24]

Yeah, and I know 8 people who go to UCSF. They said that they are disappointed in their clinical training, and that the attendings dont let them do very much.

My 8 people trumps your 4 people at Hopkins, so what do you have to say about that?

lol. what can I say, MacGyver. You USNews Rankings Slave you. I almost wish I hadn't said anything so I wouldn't have to deal with your idiotic responses. I don't mind being wrong, but your approach is really ridiculous. I feel like I'm talking to an 8 year old. You're right buddy. Your 8 people does "trump" my 4. I've said my bit as have others. So let's just let the op make up his mind.

 

[citygirl]

I'll add my endorsement for Soujah1's comments. We get plenty of clinical experience at UCSF. In fact, we were interviewing hospital patients and learning physical exam skills by our second week of school.

Both schools are great. Go where you think you will have the better quality of life.

 

[MacGyver]

OK, time to put my cards on the table. Some of you people totally misread my approach.

1) Clinical training at both UCSF and Hopkins is excellent. I give the edge to Hopkins due to their amazing hospital, but both schools are close to the top. I put Harvard and Hopkins in tier I, followed by the next group of 10 or so schools in tier II. Feel free to disagree, its not that important anyways. But lets please not make up bull**** about how knowing someone at school X is supposedly indicative of the school at large. Thats total bull****.

2) I do know 8 people at UCSF who had some complaints about it; HOWEVER I also know many more who raved about the place. Conversely I know many people at Hopkins who absolutely love the school, and a few who complain about the location understandably. I dont know of anybody who complained about the school itself, although I'm sure a few exist. Hell I know people at Harvard who complain about their school, but I'm wise enough to know its not indicative of the school at large. The claim that Hopkins doesnt teach well clinically is absurd, and shown to be a farce by every measure available: match lists, residency director ratings, surveys of graduating students by the AAMC.

3) I'm so sick and ****ing tired of people saying "I know persons at X institution who said _______" This is such a bull**** form of evidence, and I resort to it ONLY to point out how useless that kind of information is. Obviously, 8 people dont speak for all of UCSF and 4 people dont speak for Hopkins.

4) The vast majority of people who say "I know an anonymous person at this institution who said ______" are outright liars, or at the very least exaggerrating or misrepresenting what the person said to try and make their stupid claims.

 

[Benjo]

wow, a coherent and logical post from MacGyver, although it was still full of pent up sexual frustration manifested (as it often is) by know-it-all-ism.
Still, I sense backtracking.

 

[MacGyver]

wow, a coherent and logical post from MacGyver, although it was still full of pent up sexual frustration manifested (as it often is) by know-it-all-ism.
Still, I sense backtracking.

Backtracking? No.

The guy said he knew 4 people at Hopkins who complained about it, and thats somehow indicative of Hopkins at large.

I then told him that I know 8 people at UCSF who had complaints. According to HIS LOGIC, not mine, that means that UCSF must suck based on these personal anecdotes. Of course, he chose to dismiss my anecdotes while accepting his on the same grounds.

Personal anecdotes are worthless. I know people at Harvard who hate it there, and I know people at Harvard who are convinced its far and above the best medical school in the world. Neither group speaks for Harvard as a whole, and their opinions are mostly worthless.

THATS my whole point.

 

[doepug]

C'mon... this is getting ridiculous.

Both Hopkins and UCSF have outstanding clinical training for medical students that would make the OP (or anyone else) a very capable physician.

All of the arguments that have been posted are splitting hairs. Everyone knows of someone who was happy or unhappy at School X, and to base a decision like this on hearsay seems silly. Hopkins and UCSF admit the same students and hire the same faculty. In my opinion, the OP should think seriously about each school and go with a gut feeling... there's no wrong decision with these two schools.

 

[Bear1220]

For what it's worth, I declined by JHU spot a few days ago and chose UCSF. It was a very tough decision and I used the full time allotted to make my decision. I'm sure I would've been happy at either school. At least I know I made someone else really happy by freeing up a spot at JHU. Really, one can't go wrong with either choice. Both have their own pros and cons. Overall, UCSF seemed to fit me, the Californian that I am, better than Hopkins.