How a doctor makes money?

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Going to try something new here

Based on recent threads about salaries, I think we should start a thread on a topic that is really important but is often never taught in medical school and/or residency - the business aspect of medicine.

So lets start with this scenario and question, have other members answer, and see if we can make this educational and informative. Feel free to answer, and ask questions. (ie socratic method)

So topic 1:

You are a solo practitioner, in your own practice, in the city. What determines your salary? How do you get paid?

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A dermatologist, an orthopod, and a family doctor share the same office building and pay the same rent. At the end of the day (or year), their take home pay will differ from each other - why?

Dermatologist have more cash payors and Orthopods more procedures? Is it also because both dermatologists and orthopods tend to see a higher New Visit to Established Visit ratio?
 
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A dermatologist, an orthopod, and a family doctor share the same office building and pay the same rent. At the end of the day (or year), their take home pay will differ from each other - why?

Is this assuming they work similar hours?
 
Very interested and excited for threads like these on SDN! :)
 
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Reimbursement rates set by Medicaid?

Dermatologist have more cash payors and Orthopods more procedures? Is it also because both dermatologists and orthopods tend to see a higher New Visit to Established Visit ratio?

Differing CPT code mix and payor mix per RVU

OK, let's start with the basics

In this situation, Patient A sees a doctor (doesn't matter if it is a PCP, dermatologist, orthopod, rheumatologist, etc)

The doctor will see the patient, obtain the relevant HPI, ROS, PMH/PSH/FHx/SHx, PE, and come to a diagnosis and treatment plan. An outpatient E/M code is then used to bill insurance company depending on level of service (LOS) - which is predefined by CMS. You can't just go "well, I think this is a complex case so therefore I will bill as a level 5 comprehensive new patient visit" without appropriate supporting documentation.

If the PCP or dermatologist wrote:
This new patient is 65 yo M male with 2-week history of a severely, itchy red rash on his face, not improving with over-the-counter lotion. Patient is not taking any new medications.
Past medical history: Asthma
Social history: Negative for tobacco
Review of systems (ROS): Negative for new growths or fever
PE: patchy erythema accompanied by induration along the V2 distribution on right side of face, with grouped herpetiform vessicles apearing unilaterally
A/P: Herpez Zoster. Plan - treat zoster for symptoms and +/- antiviral

The above note contains 5 HPI points (detailed hx), 2 ROS, 2 PMSFHx, expanded-focused PE, and complex medical decision making (including writing Rx). For a new patient, you need all 3 "levels" (history, exam, medical decision making) to be in agreement to bill at that level, otherwise you bill at the lowest level that you documented. For return patients, you just need 2 out of 3. In this case, this note should be a new patient level 3 office visit (99203) because the exam component didn't meet the requirment for level 4 or 5 visit. So a doctor may submit a 99204 or 99205 code, but a good biller/coder (that the doctor hires) will catch this, and ask the doctor to resubmit as a 99203. If the doctor submits this as a 99205, and a year later gets audited, the auditor will not that the visit was "upcoded" and will penalize the doctor for this (the doctor will be accused of overcharging or overbilling Medicare and committing Medicare Fraud)

NOW the details of what constitute a new patient, what qualifies as a level 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 visits, etc are beyond the scope of medical students and it should NOT be something that at this level needs to be learned. The above is just a glimpse on what your preceptor is thinking when he enters a billing code during your outpatient rotation exposure (ie during family medicine, part of internal medicine, pediatrics, etc). As a resident, you should start to be familiar with this since you are seeing patients in your continuity clinic and starting to bill (albeit under your attending's name so ultimately your attending has final say) and should know this stuff once you are done with training since it will be your name (and liability) attached to each bill you submit.

Your personal income is basically Gross Income - Overhead. Like any other business, gross income is determined by how much you can collect (not necessarily bill). You bill in hopes that the insurer will pay what you bill (and not downcode your visit or deny the visit altogether even though you have already provided service). So when you see surveys and see the average family medicine income vs dermatology vs orthopedic spine vs pediatrics vs pulmonary vs GI - the same principle applies - income is Gross Income - overhead.

So what determines Gross Income? There's actually a complex formula developed by CMS that generates a physician fee schedule for physician services. Physician Services include Office Visits, Surgical Procedures, and Diagnostic/Therapeutic Services.

Each CPT code (whether diagnostic or procedure) is assigned a RVU (relative value unit), predetermined by CMS. RVU is usually determined by physician work (52%), practice expense (46%) and malpractice liability (2%). However it gets way more complicated based on where you work and type of setting that you work ... so the work done in a hospital outpatient setting in California may be reimbursed differently than the same work done in a rural Kentucky PCP's office (since it takes geolocation using GPCI, cost of practice, etc)


Now you submit your bill to insurance as a 99203 visit. (some insurance will still accept an outpatient consult 99243 instead of outpatient new patient visit, but a lot of commercial insurance followed CMS lead in rejecting outpatient consult codes). In 2014, a 99203 visit will generally be reimbursed $108 (1.42 RVU), BUT there are external factors that can affect that reimbursement rate (mainly where you practice since medicare does take region and cost of practice into consideration, whether you are participating in PQRS, meaningful use, if you're using EMR, etc). Usually insurance companies will reimburse based on a percentage of Medicare's prevailing rate, although for large health systems they can negotiate that rate (either higher or lower depending on market strength by either the health system OR insurer). A recent survey of doctors report that for 99203 visits, roughly 25% of physicians get reimbursed less than $75 for a 99203, about a third get between $75-$100 for a 99203, and 42% get reimbursed more than $100. According to the AMA, a 99203 visit should take 30 minutes.


So let's say the family medicine doctor sees 2 new patients in an hour, makes a diagnosis (and correctly finds the right ICD10 code), and submits 99203 codes for both patients. For that hour of work, the gross income should be $216 (for this example). A dermatologist who sees 2 new patients in an hour, submits the relevant ICD10 code, and bills 99203 codes will get reimbursed the same. An orthopedic surgeon who sees 2 new patients in his office will also submit the ICD10 codes and bill 99203 codes and get paid the same* (will discuss global payments later but in this case, new patient, no surgery yet). **I know my dermatology and orthopedic colleagues are laughing right now at the concept of seeing 2 new patients an hour.

So at the end of the hour, the family medicine doctor, dermatologist, and orthopedic surgeon have seen 2 patients, billed, and have generated $200 in gross income. Medicare/medicaid/Blues/Tricare/Aetna do not care if you're a harvard-trained dermatologist, or a small community hospital trained PCP and makes no such adjustments (a common misconception that some premeds have is that reimbursement is tied to prestige of training). They also don't care if you have $20k in student loans, or $350k in student loan.

But back to the original question:

So why are the incomes different at the end of the day/year?
 
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Very interested and excited for threads like these on SDN! :)

Thanks. Trying something new. Hopefully this will be helpful and useful to members of SDN

I'm open to discussions (and even point out errors that I made) from other attendings/fellows/residents/former med coders who are now premed, etc.

Eventually I want to discuss other practice types (ie group practice, hospital employed, military med, NHSC, etc) but I want to start with the basics. Unfortunately the basics is not often taught in medical school
 
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OK, let's start with the basics

In this situation, Patient A sees a doctor (doesn't matter if it is a PCP, dermatologist, orthopod, rheumatologist, etc)

The doctor will see the patient, obtain the relevant HPI, ROS, PMH/PSH/FHx/SHx, PE, and come to a diagnosis and treatment plan. An outpatient E/M code is then used to bill insurance company depending on level of service (LOS) - which is predefined by CMS. You can't just go "well, I think this is a complex case so therefore I will bill as a level 5 comprehensive new patient visit" without appropriate supporting documentation.

If the PCP or dermatologist wrote:


The above note contains 5 HPI points (detailed hx), 2 ROS, 2 PMSFHx, expanded-focused PE, and complex medical decision making (including writing Rx). For a new patient, you need all 3 "levels" (history, exam, medical decision making) to be in agreement to bill at that level, otherwise you bill at the lowest level that you documented. For return patients, you just need 2 out of 3. In this case, this note should be a new patient level 3 office visit (99203) because the exam component didn't meet the requirment for level 4 or 5 visit. So a doctor may submit a 99204 or 99205 code, but a good biller/coder (that the doctor hires) will catch this, and ask the doctor to resubmit as a 99203. If the doctor submits this as a 99205, and a year later gets audited, the auditor will not that the visit was "upcoded" and will penalize the doctor for this (the doctor will be accused of overcharging or overbilling Medicare and committing Medicare Fraud)

NOW the details of what constitute a new patient, what qualifies as a level 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 visits, etc are beyond the scope of medical students and it should NOT be something that at this level needs to be learned. The above is just a glimpse on what your preceptor is thinking when he enters a billing code during your outpatient rotation exposure (ie during family medicine, part of internal medicine, pediatrics, etc). As a resident, you should start to be familiar with this since you are seeing patients in your continuity clinic and starting to bill (albeit under your attending's name so ultimately your attending has final say) and should know this stuff once you are done with training since it will be your name (and liability) attached to each bill you submit.

Your personal income is basically Gross Income - Overhead. Like any other business, gross income is determined by how much you can collect (not necessarily bill). You bill in hopes that the insurer will pay what you bill (and not downcode your visit or deny the visit altogether even though you have already provided service). So when you see surveys and see the average family medicine income vs dermatology vs orthopedic spine vs pediatrics vs pulmonary vs GI - the same principle applies - income is Gross Income - overhead.

So what determines Gross Income? There's actually a complex formula developed by CMS that generates a physician fee schedule for physician services. Physician Services include Office Visits, Surgical Procedures, and Diagnostic/Therapeutic Services.

Each CPT code (whether diagnostic or procedure) is assigned a RVU (relative value unit), predetermined by CMS. RVU is usually determined by physician work (52%), practice expense (46%) and malpractice liability (2%). However it gets way more complicated based on where you work and type of setting that you work ... so the work done in a hospital outpatient setting in California may be reimbursed differently than the same work done in a rural Kentucky PCP's office (since it takes geolocation using GPCI, cost of practice, etc)


Now you submit your bill to insurance as a 99203 visit. (some insurance will still accept an outpatient consult 99243 instead of outpatient new patient visit, but a lot of commercial insurance followed CMS lead in rejecting outpatient consult codes). In 2014, a 99203 visit will generally be reimbursed $108 (1.42 RVU), BUT there are external factors that can affect that reimbursement rate (mainly where you practice since medicare does take region and cost of practice into consideration, whether you are participating in PQRS, meaningful use, if you're using EMR, etc). Usually insurance companies will reimburse based on a percentage of Medicare's prevailing rate, although for large health systems they can negotiate that rate (either higher or lower depending on market strength by either the health system OR insurer). A recent survey of doctors report that for 99203 visits, roughly 25% of physicians get reimbursed less than $75 for a 99203, about a third get between $75-$100 for a 99203, and 42% get reimbursed more than $100. According to the AMA, a 99203 visit should take 30 minutes.


So let's say the family medicine doctor sees 2 new patients in an hour, makes a diagnosis (and correctly finds the right ICD10 code), and submits 99203 codes for both patients. For that hour of work, the gross income should be $216 (for this example). A dermatologist who sees 2 new patients in an hour, submits the relevant ICD10 code, and bills 99203 codes will get reimbursed the same. An orthopedic surgeon who sees 2 new patients in his office will also submit the ICD10 codes and bill 99203 codes and get paid the same* (will discuss global payments later but in this case, new patient, no surgery yet). **I know my dermatology and orthopedic colleagues are laughing right now at the concept of seeing 2 new patients an hour.

So at the end of the hour, the family medicine doctor, dermatologist, and orthopedic surgeon have seen 2 patients, billed, and have generated $200 in gross income. Medicare/medicaid/Blues/Tricare/Aetna do not care if you're a harvard-trained dermatologist, or a small community hospital trained PCP and makes no such adjustments (a common misconception that some premeds have is that reimbursement is tied to prestige of training). They also don't care if you have $20k in student loans, or $350k in student loan.

But back to the original question:

So why are the incomes different at the end of the day/year?
Wow, very valuable information.

To answer your question, I think doing procedures is what bumps their income. For example, in the time a family doctor sees two patients, the orthopedic surgeon can perform a surgery that generates more RVUs than 2.84. Similarly, a dermatologist could boost his income by performing some Botox injections and other procedures that generate a much higher RVU per minute than seeing a follow up patient.
 
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Thanks. Trying something new. Hopefully this will be helpful and useful to members of SDN

I'm open to discussions (and even point out errors that I made) from other attendings/fellows/residents/former med coders who are now premed, etc.

Eventually I want to discuss other practice types (ie group practice, hospital employed, military med, NHSC, etc) but I want to start with the basics. Unfortunately the basics is not often taught in medical school
It seems as if talking about such things in med school, even cordially among fellow students, is taboo and frowned upon. So, I think I can speak for a large sum of people when I say that I truly appreciate this thread: hopefully it finishes as ballin' as it began.
 
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I'm looking forward to following this thread. I don't consider myself to be a business-savvy person, so I appreciate the initiative in starting the discussion for the benefit of students and pre-meds alike. Thanks for putting this together, @group_theory!
 
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Just as off-topic comment: SDN has pretty much been my savior and guide to getting me into medical school so far. It will continue to be my guide getting through medical school and throughout my entire career once I get through it. I am very happy to see threads like this that teach us the logistics of how doctors actually get paid and how to actually "practice". I just hope the folks who get very butthurt when somebody brings up the money part of medicine don't make it in here and cause the shutting down of the thread.

Hope that more attendings can pitch in and even residents too. :) a lot of gems on SDN and this is another one!
 
OK, after spending the day generating RVUs, let's continue the conversation.

Volume and payor mix

So seeing 2 Level3 new patient visits isn't enough to sustain a practice. And as I alluded in my above post, while Medicare may pay roughly $108 for a 99203 visit, roughly half of the physician surveyed reported that they get paid less than $100 for 99203. For example, if you see an Illinois Medicaid patient as a new patient and bill a 99203, according to Illinois fee schedule, you get reimbursed $41.60 for 2015. If you see a Kentucky Medicaid patient, that 99203 gets reimbursed $74.09. For New York, it's $56.93. For commercial insurance, they may pay Medicare's rate or slightly higher. Based on a recent survey, the Blues pay roughly 106% of Medicare's rate - so that 99203 may be $114.48

You also have the cash-paying option where patients don't have insurance and just pay you cash. Remember that you cannot charge less than Medicare for your cash patient, you must offer Medicare that same rate. So if you charge $60 for an office visit, then you must offer Medicare that rate (so Medicare will reimburse you $60 for seeing a medicare patient instead of $108). If you don't charge medicare the best/lowest rate that you charge, then you have just committed Medicare fraud. There's risk with cash paying, esp if they don't pay at the time of service. They may not pay, which means you don't collect and may have to send to collection. Also, if they charge on credit card, visa/mastercard/discover/Amex all charge a percentage, which eats into that revenue stream.

So if you happen to squeeze in 4 new patients that hour (hence the VOLUME), and all 4 happen to be 99203, then if they were all medicare your gross revenue may be $432. If all 4 happen to be Illinois Medicaid, then the gross revenue would be $166.40. If all 4 happens to have blue cross, it may be $457.92. Hence "payor mix" plays a big role in your income ... if your patients are predominantly medicaid then your collection will be lower compare to if your patients are predominantly private insurer.

So that's why payor mix is important. If your patient population is predominantly medicaid, one way to make up for decrease in reimbursement is with volume - instead of 4 patients, perhaps 6 patients (seeing a patient every 10 minutes instead of every 15 minutes).


To answer your question, I think doing procedures is what bumps their income. For example, in the time a family doctor sees two patients, the orthopedic surgeon can perform a surgery that generates more RVUs than 2.84. Similarly, a dermatologist could boost his income by performing some Botox injections and other procedures that generate a much higher RVU per minute than seeing a follow up patient.

Correct. The PCP and the dermatologist will see patients in the office and bill accordingly. If you have ever been to the dermatology office, they see a lot of patients per hour. In addition, they offer services which are not covered by insurance (such as botox for cosmetic reasons) so can charge cash (in which case, the dermatologist can set the price - market condition and competition will set the price). Also, because of how CPT codes are assigned to RVU, procedures generate more RVUs than cerebral analysis/thinking. If you show up to a dermatologist with a suspicious lesion, the dermatologist will biopsy it. That CPT code (11100) is roughly $103.82 for the first lesion, and $32.94 for each addition lesion (CPT 11101). If the dermatologist did a shave removal, then it's $98.10 for < 0.5cm and $120.29 for 0.6-1cm. And if the dermatologist performs Mohs Stage 1 (h/n/hf/g), it's $666.62 and $392.02 for each additional stage.

So you can increase your gross income by doing procedures in the office, and seeing more patients. So PCPs who actively do procedures (destruction of warts chemically, joint injections, etc) will generate more RVUs than a PCP who does not (and refers out). There are CPT codes for OMT. Unfortunately the RVU for 98925 (1-2 body region involved) is 0.45, the same as a 99202 (level 2 established visit)

For surgeons (such as our orthopedic surgeon) - their income is generated by office visits, office procedure (joint injections, etc) but mostly by surgery. They need their office so that they have a steady stream of patients who were referred for potential surgery (as well as follow-up on patients after surgery). Instead of itemized fees for surgery, the surgeon gets paid a global fee for the entire surgery. A global fee is a single fee is billed and paid for all necessary services normally furnished by the surgeon before, during and after a procedure. For a hip replacement, that global fee covers the patient from the day before surgery, the surgery itself, and 90 days after surgery. So that post-op office visits would be covered by the global fee and the surgeon will not receive additional compensation for those visits. The average typical cost for a total knee replacement procedure was $31,124. However, it could cost as little as $11,317 in Montgomery, Alabama, and as high as $69,654 in NYC
 
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Until it was repealed this year, the Medicare SGR was on every physician's mind. Why?
Well ... here's the wikipedia article on SGR
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicare_Sustainable_Growth_Rate

So why was it a big deal.

Let's pretend you see 2 patients/hr on medicare, and happen to bill 99203 for both, and bring in $216. For the sake of argument, let's say your total overhead is $100 for that hour. Your net income for that hour was $116. Not bad, right.

Let's say Medicare decides to cut reimbursement by 10%. Most people assume your income will drop by 10%, so instead of $116 for that hour, it would be $104.40.

But let's do the math.

Instead of getting reimbursed $108 for that 99203 visit, you get paid $97.20. So for the two patients you saw that hour, your gross income was $194.40. However, your overhead stays the same (good luck trying to get your utilities to reduce their rate by 10% because medicare reduced it by 10%, or reduce your malpractice premiums by 10% because medicare reduced its reimbursement by 10%). Ignoring inflation and other stuff (like raises for your employees), let's say your overhead is exactly the same at $100 for that hour. So your net income is now $94.40. So that 10% cut in Medicare is actually an 18.6% cut in your income.

Something to think about.
 
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Seems like Medicaid is a really bad deal. This compels me to ask, in a typical day, if a PCP sees 20pts, how many of those are Medicaid patients?
 
So why are the incomes different at the end of the day/year?
Because the FP does the same thing every hour and every day, but the dermie and orthopod don't.
They go on to do big income procedures or cash pay elective derm stuff on the patients they see in clinic.
FP just grinds it out and then blazes off into the sunset in his Accord every night.
 
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Because the FP does the same thing every hour and every day, but the dermie and orthopod don't.
They go on to do big income procedures or cash pay elective derm stuff on the patients they see in clinic.
FP just grinds it out and then blazes off into the sunset in his Accord every night.
Glad you posted in this thread because i have questions about anesthesiology. How is their pay determined? Is it based on RVU or is it like EM where they get hourly wage?
 
Is it based on RVU or is it like EM where they get hourly wage?

Since you touched on EM... not all EM is hourly wage based. There are a lot of RVU-based jobs. Because of the nature of EM, it's usually not a direct "my-RVU" reimbursement; meaning I don't necessarily get the money from the people I see. Rather the group tracks how many RVUs each person generates, then converts that to a total percentage of the RVUs generated by the group. Once billing is complete for a month, each doc then gets an equivalent percent of the revenue.
 
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Seems like Medicaid is a really bad deal. This compels me to ask, in a typical day, if a PCP sees 20pts, how many of those are Medicaid patients?
This question is impossible to answer because it depends on the location demographics, length of time in practice, sheer chance as well as other factors. The answer could be 0, 20 or any number in between depending on the physician.
 
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This is for all the docs who have replied so far (or any who haven't): how will the new healthcare system, with bundled payments, affect income? It appears that it will lower it but how, specifically? Is it because of instead of receiving X amount for each code a physician will now receive the same X amount for multiple codes? Or, am I incorrect here?
 
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This is for all the docs who have replied so far (or any who haven't): how will the new healthcare system, with bundled payments, affect income? It appears that it will lower it but how, specifically? Is it because of instead of receiving X amount for each code a physician will now receive the same X amount for multiple codes? Or, am I incorrect here?

To understand bundled payments, you have to understand how it came about.

What I described above is fee for service, where you charge a fee for each visit, procedure, unit of time (which I didn't discuss), etc.

When HMOs were popular, they used to pay by capitated service. Each patient assigned to a doctor got a fixed amount of money for that year. If you had 10 patients with HMO Blue, you may have received $1000 ($100/patient) for that year. If none of those 10 patients visited you for that year, you profited because you didn't have any expenditure for those patients. If those 10 patients were chronic patients who require visits every 2-4 weeks or monthly, then you still get $1000 even though you provided $10,000 worth of service. In this scheme, the physician assumes the financial risks of future cost outstripping the fixed payment (in the fee-for-service, the insurer assumes the risk of future cost). Under this plan, physicians were incentive to minimize their costs/overhead (let's see you every 6 months instead of monthly, let's watch that growth instead of biopsying it, etc). It is also a disincentive for physicians to see sicker patients who require more attention and resources.

Bundled payment falls between fee for service and capitation. However, instead of a lump sum to the physician, it's a lump sum to the physicians/hospital. Take the global fee above for the orthopedic surgeon. If you expand it to include more physicians, then that is bundled payment. So that global fee will now be spread to the anesthesiologist who provided service in the room, to the hospital or surgicenter (instead of separate facility fee), the critical care doctor if the patient ends up in the ICU post-operatively (instead of the intensivist billing separately outside the global fee for critical care time and procedures), etc.

Patient reports to Hospital's Emergency Department short of breath. He gets a thorough evaluation by the ER doctor and is diagnosed with COPD exacerbation. He deteriorates in the ED and requires intubation. The intensivist is called to admit the patient and manages. After a few days, Patient A gets extubated and leaves the ICU. Care is taken over by the hospitalist. Patient continues to improve and is discharged to follow-up with PCP. Under fee for service, the ER doctor bills for critical care time and intubation, the intensivist bills for critical care time, and the hospitalists bill for inpatient follow-up care (99232 or 99233). There's the radiologist who bill for reading the imaging studies obtained during his stay. There is also a separate facility fee for the hospital (to cover labs, nursing care, etc).

Under bundled payment in an ACO, there is a fixed lump sum of cash for this patient based on ICD10 codes and modifiers (MCCs/CCs) - in this case, acute respiratory failure with hypoxia and hypercapnia and Acute Exacerbation of COPD. That lump sum will be used to pay the ER doctor, intensivist, hospitalist, radiologist, and hospital. If the cost of services is less than the bundled payment, the physicians and hospital retain the difference (profit). But if the costs exceed the bundled payment, physicians and hospital are not compensated for the difference.

That bundled payment also covers 30 days after discharge. So if the above patient gets discharged, continues to smoke, gets readmitted 2 weeks later for another COPD exacerbation, the physicians and hospital will not get additional payment. This is to encourage physicians and hospital to coordinate care during the hospitalization and also coordinate transition of care from inpatient to outpatient.

So there's potential for physicians and hospital to lose money on certain patients. One of the consequences of bundled payment that we're seeing now is mergers of health systems. One way to mitigate the risks involved is to grow larger in size so that you have control/access to larger pool of patients (similar to insurance where you need a large pool of customer to mitigate the cost of the few expensive customers) as well as control all points of care (employing the PCP, ER doctor, ICU doctor, hospitalists, radiologist, et. directly) so that it would be easier to coordinate care. Also large health systems also have large amount of data that they can use for "population health". Perhaps offer smoking cessation classes and free nicotine patches for all smokers who were hospitalized, or low-salt cooking classes for CHF patients, etc. Large health systems would have resources for these, whereas a private PCP office, or private cardiology office won't have the necessary resources to provide them.
 
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Seems like Medicaid is a really bad deal. This compels me to ask, in a typical day, if a PCP sees 20pts, how many of those are Medicaid patients?

Some physicians stop seeing Medicaid patients because reimbursement is low.

In my above example, if you see 4 new patient level 3 in one hour in Illinois, medicaid will pay $166 while the Blues may pay $458. In a lot of cases, the reimbursement from medicaid won't cover the overhead expenses, so not only are you making less money by seeing a medicaid patient than a private commercial patient, but you may be losing money.

A lot of physicians still choose to continue to see medicaid patients despite the low reimbursement because many feel it is the right thing to do. What most practices do is "cap" the number of medicaid patients they can see so that the practice can still make a profit. Some might argue that it is unfair, but if you cannot generate more revenue than operating expenses, you go bankrupt. If your gross revenue is only slightly higher than operating expenses, then your income will be very small. A lot of people think "well, doctors earn high salaries so they should see medicaid patients or patients for free" but don't stop to think where that "salary" comes from - like any business, it's gross revenue minus overhead. And if gross revenue is barely above overhead, your "salary" may be $10k, or $30k for the year.

Even if you join a group practice and get paid a fixed salary, in order for the group to survive (and pay you the salary they offered), their gross revenue needs to be above overhead. If you're directly employed by a hospital health system, at the end of the day if the health system can't generate more revenue than overhead, that health system won't be healthy and may start shutting down services (e.g., lets close down that office that is hemorrhaging money)

Under the ACA (aka Obamacare), the payment for medicaid was increased to match Medicare levels for PCP (as a way to entice increase participation). However, that increase was only for 2013 and 2014. It went back to its pre-ACA level in 2015. In addition, many states like to cut medicaid reimbursements during budget battles because medicaid takes up a huge portion of the state's budget.



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Since you touched on EM... not all EM is hourly wage based. There are a lot of RVU-based jobs. Because of the nature of EM, it's usually not a direct "my-RVU" reimbursement; meaning I don't necessarily get the money from the people I see. Rather the group tracks how many RVUs each person generates, then converts that to a total percentage of the RVUs generated by the group. Once billing is complete for a month, each doc then gets an equivalent percent of the revenue.

To expand a little,

In the ED, they see all comers (thanks EMTALA). Medicaid, Medicare, private insurance, cash-paying, and uninsured. If you are payed purely on "eat what you kill" (your salary is determined by how much you collect from your billing), it makes you not want to see the uninsured and medicaid patients. Of course if you cherry pick patients during your shift, the group may not like it. Tracking RVUs and then paying based on percentage of total collected spread the cost of seeing the uninsured/medicaid patients throughout the group so that you don't get screwed if you work a night where all you see are medicaid and the uninsured.
 
Seems like Medicaid is a really bad deal. This compels me to ask, in a typical day, if a PCP sees 20pts, how many of those are Medicaid patients?

It depends on the practice.

Some PCPs do not see any Medicaid at all, because a) it reimburses poorly, and b) it's a pain in the butt to deal with.

Some PCPs, like myself, see almost exclusively Medicaid. I work at a Federally Qualified Health Center (FQHC).

Most physicians/midlevels who work at FQHCs are salaried - i.e. I get paid the same annual rate no matter how many patients I see. I get paid the same if I see 22 patients a day, or 2 patients a day. Many FQHCs do offer productivity bonuses at the end of the year, though.

And billing/RVUs are still important, because that's (partly) how our office keeps the door open. We get most of our funding in federal grants (from HRSA or other federal agencies), which means that our priorities are different, but we still see insured patients, so we want to make sure that we bill correctly so that we don't commit fraud/get reimbursed for the care that we provide/etc.

Medicaid may seem like a bad deal to you, and it is, but for a physician who also sees a lot of uninsured patients, having patients on Medicaid is a godsend. If they need a procedure, I can make sure that they actually get it. If I think that they have cancer, I can make sure that they get the appropriate workup. If they need expensive insulins to keep their diabetes under control, I can prescribe it. For patients without insurance, even the simplest things can be extremely difficult to get.
 
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It seems as if talking about such things in med school, even cordially among fellow students, is taboo and frowned upon. So, I think I can speak for a large sum of people when I say that I truly appreciate this thread: hopefully it finishes as ballin' as it began.

I agree, it's totally taboo until you hit residency. But it really shouldn't be. Wanting to be fairly reimbursed is not the same as insisting that your only goal in life as a physician is to drive a Mercedes and wear only hand-tailored silk clothing. And I don't think it's a crime, either, to want to be at least somewhat well reimbursed (although I certainly went to school with enough self-righteous med students who DID think it was a crime). Medicine is a very stressful career, pretty much regardless of your specialty choice, and it has to be at least somewhat financially worth it in order to keep going.
 
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Under bundled payment in an ACO, there is a fixed lump sum of cash for this patient based on ICD10 codes and modifiers (MCCs/CCs) - in this case, acute respiratory failure with hypoxia and hypercapnia and Acute Exacerbation of COPD. That lump sum will be used to pay the ER doctor, intensivist, hospitalist, radiologist, and hospital.

...and let's be honest here... insurance saves a lot of money when physicians don't document correctly. While since this patient was intubated, the intensivist would be sure to throw on a respiratory failure diagnosis, I can easily see a situation where a patient doesn't require intubation, but requires more supplemental O2 and no one actually writes down "hypoxia" anyplace on the chart.

Additionally a lot of physicians (and residents who aren't learning about bundled payment billing) are doing themselves a great disservice when they document, for example, "CHF exacerbation" instead of writing out the full diagnosis (i.e. acute on chronic systolic/diastolic heart failure).

The same thing with diabetes when everyone wants to talk about insulin status (IDDM vs NIDDM) instead of type 1 vs 2, etc.
 
To expand a little,

In the ED, they see all comers (thanks EMTALA). Medicaid, Medicare, private insurance, cash-paying, and uninsured. If you are payed purely on "eat what you kill" (your salary is determined by how much you collect from your billing), it makes you not want to see the uninsured and medicaid patients. Of course if you cherry pick patients during your shift, the group may not like it. Tracking RVUs and then paying based on percentage of total collected spread the cost of seeing the uninsured/medicaid patients throughout the group so that you don't get screwed if you work a night where all you see are medicaid and the uninsured.

I thought most "eat what you kill" groups worked like this:

See patient->collect RVUs->total collections dispersed in proportion to RVUs generated without regards to which patients actually paid their bills.
 
Are EM physicians usually on salary under the hospital? or does this "eat what you kill" model pretty much stay the same across different groups/hospitals you work under?
 
Are EM physicians usually on salary under the hospital? or does this "eat what you kill" model pretty much stay the same across different groups/hospitals you work under?
Depends on the hosptial... depends on the state. For example, in California hospitals can't hire physicians directly because of how state law and the state constitution is written. As such, even the large unified hospital companies (the biggest example being Kaiser) ends up contracting to a medical group (in Kaiser's case, the Permanente Medical Group).
http://www.mbc.ca.gov/Licensees/Corporate_Practice.aspx
 
Seems like Medicaid is a really bad deal. This compels me to ask, in a typical day, if a PCP sees 20pts, how many of those are Medicaid patients?

If the doctor has half a brain and is like most doctors in my area who don't work for the county hospital system, zero. Medicaid reimbursement is absolutely abysmal and the restrictions are abominable.

My residency clinic is at an FQHC and whenever I get a new Medicaid patient I groan silently. There is so much extra hoop jumping, restrictions on what I can do, necessary things that mysteriously aren't covered, and other miscellaneous bull**** that I can totally understand why the average doctor wants nothing to do with Medicaid patients. They're a gigantic pain in the ass even though they're the people who need your help most.

Being without insurance is worse, but the county I live in sponsors a safety net program via the county hospital for all county residents that is fairly easy to get patients into and frankly way less painful than dealing with Medicaid.
 
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Others ways that physicians make money speaks to the entrepreneurship spirit of physicians.

A group of physicians can pool their money (investments) into starting or creating an ambulatory surgical center or MRI center, imaging center, etc. That way, not only do the physicians get paid for doing the procedures (RVUs), but they get a portion of the profit that the facility they co-own generates. There are even hospitals that are physicians-owned (although Obamacare/ACA prohibited new physician-own hospitals from starting, and current physician-own hospitals from expanding unless they apply for and are granted exceptions from the prohibition by CMS)

Another way for physicians to make money is to hire more physicians. If I am running a successful solo practice, I can hire another physician to work for my practice. I can say "Hey, I'll offer you a salary of $150k plus a bonus based on RVU". If that employee physician generates $250k in billing, then after taxes and employee benefits, and bonuses, I may be able to pocket an extra $50k from that employee's work. If I happen to also own the on-site phlebotomy lab, and co-own the radiology imaging center across the street ... I may have additional income/profit from the additional lab work and x-rays ordered by my employee physicians. So it's additional income on top of the work/RVU that I'm generating (which I dont have to share with my employee since my employee is salaried)

Why would the physician agreed to be an employee then? Because if you want to start your own practice - you are starting from scratch - empty building, hiring office staff/nurse/MAs, getting credentialed by insurances/medicare/medicaid, office equipment, PLUS you need a referral base to start getting patients. Plus the way insurance reimburses you after you submit a bill, it could be a few months between when you submit a bill and when that bill gets paid. While you are waiting to get paid, your bills starts to pill up. Physicians who have successfully navigated the process of starting a new practice will not suddenly offer part ownership/partnership to brand new physicians - they will want you to work/earn your way into the partnership (and also buy into the partnership). Or you can take over (buy) a practice that is already established. Either way, you will need money and most physicians coming out of residency these days don't have hundreds of thousands of dollars to start a new practice, or buy an established practice. You can always get more loans from a bank if you have a good business plan ... but that is more debt on top of student loan debt ... something that most people are adverse to. A lot easier to just be an employee and get paid either a fixed salary OR get paid by the hour.
 
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Others ways that physicians make money speaks to the entrepreneurship spirit of physicians.

A group of physicians can pool their money (investments) into starting or creating an ambulatory surgical center or MRI center, imaging center, etc. That way, not only do the physicians get paid for doing the procedures (RVUs), but they get a portion of the profit that the facility they co-own generates. There are even hospitals that are physicians-owned (although Obamacare/ACA prohibited new physician-own hospitals from starting, and current physician-own hospitals from expanding unless they apply for and are granted exceptions from the prohibition by CMS)

Another way for physicians to make money is to hire more physicians. If I am running a successful solo practice, I can hire another physician to work for my practice. I can say "Hey, I'll offer you a salary of $150k plus a bonus based on RVU". If that employee physician generates $250k in billing, then after taxes and employee benefits, and bonuses, I may be able to pocket an extra $50k from that employee's work. If I happen to also own the on-site phlebotomy lab, and co-own the radiology imaging center across the street ... I may have additional income/profit from the additional lab work and x-rays ordered by my employee physicians. So it's additional income on top of the work/RVU that I'm generating (which I dont have to share with my employee since my employee is salaried)

Why would the physician agreed to be an employee then? Because if you want to start your own practice - you are starting from scratch - empty building, hiring office staff/nurse/MAs, getting credentialed by insurances/medicare/medicaid, office equipment, PLUS you need a referral base to start getting patients. Plus the way insurance reimburses you after you submit a bill, it could be a few months between when you submit a bill and when that bill gets paid. While you are waiting to get paid, your bills starts to pill up. Physicians who have successfully navigated the process of starting a new practice will not suddenly offer part ownership/partnership to brand new physicians - they will want you to work/earn your way into the partnership (and also buy into the partnership). Or you can take over (buy) a practice that is already established. Either way, you will need money and most physicians coming out of residency these days don't have hundreds of thousands of dollars to start a new practice, or buy an established practice. You can always get more loans from a bank if you have a good business plan ... but that is more debt on top of student loan debt ... something that most people are adverse to. A lot easier to just be an employee and get paid either a fixed salary OR get paid by the hour.


How does one go about investing in a diagnostic lab or phlebotomy lab? It seems that certain companies offer franchise agreements but I'm in California which is very restricting in that sense. What does that process entail and seems like a very profitable, low-risk investment. What is your take on that?
 
How does one go about investing in a diagnostic lab or phlebotomy lab? It seems that certain companies offer franchise agreements but I'm in California which is very restricting in that sense. What does that process entail and seems like a very profitable, low-risk investment. What is your take on that?

Like any business, you have to know the owners who are looking to raise capital (and willing to give you part ownership of their joint venture), or know the right people are who looking into investing/starting a company.

Nothing is ever a sure thing, esp when it comes to investments and business. Be careful when someone offers you a very profitable low-risk investment opportunity. Besides getting scam/con (see CNBC American Greed for examples of people with good intention investing in the wrong people), you also need to either have your own diagnostic lab (which an be very expensive), or partner with a diagnostic lab where you provide the phlebotomy service. You need a referral base (PCPs sending you patients, a specialists office sending you patients, an ambulatory surgical center sending you patients, etc). You are competing with the health system and their own labs and networks, as well as nationwide chain (such as Quest Diagnostics, Labcorp, etc

You have to make sure you don't break federal laws while you're setting up the business agreement

What most doctors don't realize (and never mentioned or taught in medical school and residency) are the Stark Laws

To quote from wiki: " It prohibits physicians referrals of designated health services ("DHS") for Medicare and Medicaid if the physician (or an immediate family member) has a financial relationship with that entity. A financial relationship includes ownership, investment interest, and compensation arrangements."

The internet is full of references to Stark Laws and its implications on physicians (and often when you get into a financial relationship/investments with an ambulatory surgicenter, or stand-alone imaging centers, or stand-alone Urgent Care centers, etc. you will need a healthcare lawyer familar with Stark Laws to review it to make sure you don't run afoul of any laws - the consequences can be financially devastating. (makes you wonder why they don't teach you this stuff in medical education)

Here are examples of companies who allegedly got in trouble with Stark Laws

Tuomey Hospital in Sumter, S.C., pays $49.4 million for violating Stark Act
http://www.beckershospitalreview.co...lated-stark-law-but-not-false-claims-act.html

Health Alliance of Greater Cincinnati and The Christ Hospital in Mount Auburn, Ohio, pay $108 million to settle accusations they violated the anti-kickback statute and the False Claims Act
http://www.beckersasc.com/stark-act...sc=77465994.1.1448402123958&__hsfp=2939746303

Physician-owned lithotripsy provider reaches $7.3 million settlement in anti-kickback lawsuit
http://www.beckersasc.com/stark-act...sc=77465994.1.1448402123958&__hsfp=2939746303
 
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Like any business, you have to know the owners who are looking to raise capital (and willing to give you part ownership of their joint venture), or know the right people are who looking into investing/starting a company.

Nothing is ever a sure thing, esp when it comes to investments and business. Be careful when someone offers you a very profitable low-risk investment opportunity. Besides getting scam/con (see CNBC American Greed for examples of people with good intention investing in the wrong people), you also need to either have your own diagnostic lab (which an be very expensive), or partner with a diagnostic lab where you provide the phlebotomy service. You need a referral base (PCPs sending you patients, a specialists office sending you patients, an ambulatory surgical center sending you patients, etc). You are competing with the health system and their own labs and networks, as well as nationwide chain (such as Quest Diagnostics, Labcorp, etc

You have to make sure you don't break federal laws while you're setting up the business agreement

What most doctors don't realize (and never mentioned or taught in medical school and residency) are the Stark Laws

To quote from wiki: " It prohibits physicians referrals of designated health services ("DHS") for Medicare and Medicaid if the physician (or an immediate family member) has a financial relationship with that entity. A financial relationship includes ownership, investment interest, and compensation arrangements."

The internet is full of references to Stark Laws and its implications on physicians (and often when you get into a financial relationship/investments with an ambulatory surgicenter, or stand-alone imaging centers, or stand-alone Urgent Care centers, etc. you will need a healthcare lawyer familar with Stark Laws to review it to make sure you don't run afoul of any laws - the consequences can be financially devastating. (makes you wonder why they don't teach you this stuff in medical education)

Here are examples of companies who allegedly got in trouble with Stark Laws

Tuomey Hospital in Sumter, S.C., pays $49.4 million for violating Stark Act
http://www.beckershospitalreview.co...lated-stark-law-but-not-false-claims-act.html

Health Alliance of Greater Cincinnati and The Christ Hospital in Mount Auburn, Ohio, pay $108 million to settle accusations they violated the anti-kickback statute and the False Claims Act
http://www.beckersasc.com/stark-act...sc=77465994.1.1448402123958&__hsfp=2939746303

Physician-owned lithotripsy provider reaches $7.3 million settlement in anti-kickback lawsuit
http://www.beckersasc.com/stark-act...sc=77465994.1.1448402123958&__hsfp=2939746303

Appreciate the reply. What is your opinion in regards to the right time for a new medical student/doctor to invest (other than having the money and finances to back it up)? In residency? After residency? I personally know a few physicians whose families did provide for them during their residency time and were able to save up and invest in spaces like medical office buildings from which they lease out actual spaces to new physicians. Any opinion on these?

On the other hand, there are some who have actually invested in retail and commercial spaces are doing really well. They don't run it, but they own the property and get paid according to that.
 
If the doctor has half a brain and is like most doctors in my area who don't work for the county hospital system, zero. Medicaid reimbursement is absolutely abysmal and the restrictions are abominable.

My residency clinic is at an FQHC and whenever I get a new Medicaid patient I groan silently. There is so much extra hoop jumping, restrictions on what I can do, necessary things that mysteriously aren't covered, and other miscellaneous bull**** that I can totally understand why the average doctor wants nothing to do with Medicaid patients. They're a gigantic pain in the ass even though they're the people who need your help most.

Being without insurance is worse, but the county I live in sponsors a safety net program via the county hospital for all county residents that is fairly easy to get patients into and frankly way less painful than dealing with Medicaid.

To add to that: Medicaid patients have high no-show rates and Medicaid won't allow for you to charge no-show fees. I don't know of any data on this but at our clinic Medicaid patients are late more often then other patients. I'm sure they have more transportation hurdles but it can eliminate your lunch, push back the end of the day, or ruin your schedule. Fortunately, (as a resident) we can choose to see them or not, if more than 15 minutes late. In PP, I may have to double book Medicaid patients, which will cause a whole new can of worms to open.

Btw this thread was great, thanks.
 
This is a good thread. I know nothing about the business side of medicine. Many physicians have told me that "private practices wont be a thing in 10 years".

Can anyone enlighten me on how exactly, and what exactly they are talking about? The basics of setting up a private practice just like any business cant change just because of insurance policies and healthcare shifts. So there must be something else going on here
 
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This is a good thread. I know nothing about the business side of medicine. Many physicians have told me that "private practices wont be a thing in 10 years".

Can anyone enlighten me on how exactly, and what exactly they are talking about? The basics of setting up a private practice just like any business cant change just because of insurance policies and healthcare shifts. So there must be something else going on here

Graduating with huge debt, less negotiating power with payors (insurances, etc), overhead increasing with decreased reimbursements, a lot of docs aren't good at business, being reimbursed is a huge hassle with multiple nuances between payors and you will often need a billing specialist or office manager who devotes tons of time to this, less ability to spread call around, big healthcare groups encourage referrals into their systems making it harder for the little guy to get business, EMR systems are super expensive and other health systems don't share/receive info and resources for IT unless they own you.

Many physicians are often conservative about business and would rather focus on medicine, while making less than doing it all on their own/taking the risk. Hopefully physician owned groups will continue to be a thing but the old school private practice is becoming less feasible. With bigger groups you can decrease and risk spread around the work, hopefully the suits don't take over, but it's happening all around.
 
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Graduating with huge debt, less negotiating power with payors (insurances, etc), overhead increasing with decreased reimbursements, a lot of docs aren't good at business, being reimbursed is a huge hassle with multiple nuances between payors and you will often need a billing specialist or office manager who devotes tons of time to this, less ability to spread call around, big healthcare groups encourage referrals into their systems making it harder for the little guy to get business, EMR systems are super expensive and other health systems don't share/receive info and resources for IT unless they own you.

Many physicians are often conservative about business and would rather focus on medicine, while making less than doing it all on their own/taking the risk. Hopefully physician owned groups will continue to be a thing but the old school private practice is becoming less feasible. With bigger groups you can decrease and risk spread around the work, hopefully the suits don't take over, but it's happening all around.

So eventually, all physicians will ultimately be employed for somebody else (whether a hospital or another group)... which will effect the salary and compensation for physicians (but still be in the 6 figs?)..?
 
So eventually, all physicians will ultimately be employed for somebody else (whether a hospital or another group)... which will effect the salary and compensation for physicians (but still be in the 6 figs?)..?

Opportunities to become a partner in physician owned groups will probably still exist, albeit more rare. I think the days of single doc private practice are going away (except in a few fields like psych or cash only/boutique practices as they have lower overhead and/or don't deal with insurance/government regulations). Plus a lot of these former PPs sell their practices to the big healthcare conglomerates. I've been to 3 cities throughout my training and in each place the hospitals are really aggressively buying practices to increase their referral base.

I think docs will always make good salaries (I hope) and there are actually some benefits to being an employee. Usually, you get good benefits and focus more on medicine than keeping the lights on, etc. It's a bit frustrating to look around and see everyone skimming off the top of docs, admin/nurse managers setting dumb protocols, admin salaries skyrocketing while clinical people stagnate. Docs will always be needed to bring in the money (nurse practitioners could change this but I won't talk about it now) so I would hope if we are getting f****d too bad we could always walk. I hope that docs will always be owners of competing groups to keep "big healthcare groups" honest. We will see.
 
Working for big management companies is a real problem. They are profit driven and view your whole practice as a cog in the wheel. You as an individual don't rate at all.
Here's a real world example of what is wrong with them, based on a true story of what used to be a good stable desirable anesthesia group in a nice small city.
15 partners and 5 non partners work at a good place with a good payer mix making $500/375 and taking 8-10 weeks vacation. Life is good (for the partners especially). They get a $1M subsidy to cover low volume trauma and OB call.
To keep it simple, we will assume that pre and post takeover benefits are the same and cost about the same. (Which they won't be. Believe me.). Total cost of this group is about $9.5M+1=10.5M. All of the 9.5M comes from patient billing.
Big management company comes in and says they will do the same job, likely successfully recruit many of the current staff, and do it for zero subsidy. That's an immediate $1M/yr savings for the hospital. No brainier easy sell to the board. They also show unrelated productivity increases, new quality metrics, national averages, etc from successes at other hospitals that dazzle the administration (but don't necessarily reflect issues present at that hospital). They make excellent bullet points in the PowerPoint slides. They claim that staffing model changes to their inefficient staffing model and bloated vacation will more than pay for the $1M subsidy. And it alone actually will. They also claim that these efficiency changes will cover their "modest" overhead.
They take over and change the current stable and successful system from solo MD to 3:1 CRNA coverage of the same ~15 daily locations. They now only need 8 MDs at $375 and 18 CRNAs at $160. Staffing costs just just dropped to about $6M. They are still billing for the same work so income remains at 9.5M. Let's say some other fees and expenses for "bonuses and profit sharing" increase it another $1M. So they are already making $2.5M in profit off the work of the physicians, who think they're getting a "fair deal". But wait, there's more...
They also cut vacation to "industry standard" 6 weeks. The Cadillac benefits and pre tax funding of corporate perks is all gone as well.
And, and this is the big one, they negotiate better payments from the insurance companies. The little group with 15 partners at one Podunk hospital can't negotiate anything. The big corporate machine with >1500 "partners" at 50+ hospitals in the region has big negotiating power. They increase insurance reimbursement 20%. All that money is their profit as well. That could easily increase total income over 10% in a good payer mix. Let's call it another $1m in the pockets of their shareholders.
If something happens and there is a problem at your hospital they can just cut you loose and move on.
These management companies didn't really offer that hospital anything of value, cost physicians jobs and income and lifestyle benefits, took income dollars out of the region to line the pockets of investors and corporate overlords, and actually end up costing the system more for the same amount of patient care.
They are a plague.
You'd be much better off working as an employee of the hospital, as long as it is profitable.
 
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@group_theory

I have been wondering about something. Why does a specialty like heme/onc has a higher average income than rheumatology, given that both specialties are outpatient heavy?

I understands why a specialtist that does purely outpatient work makes more money than a PCP (due to seeing more new patients and pts with hire acuity). However I don’t understand the reasons behind the income differential when it comes to specialists.

Thanks
 
@group_theory

I have been wondering about something. Why does a specialty like heme/onc has a higher average income than rheumatology, given that both specialties are outpatient heavy?

I understands why a specialtist that does purely outpatient work makes more money than a PCP (due to seeing more new patients and pts with hire acuity). However I don’t understand the reasons behind the income differential when it comes to specialists.

Thanks

In addition to seeing office patients, a lot of oncologists also own/run infusion centers where they can bill separately for the administration of chemotherapy, as well as bill for the cost of chemotherapy (esp if the reimbursement of chemotherapy is higher than the acquisition cost). In addition, there is also a facility fee on top of that as well. This brings in additional income.
Evolutions in Outpatient Cancer Care

However infusion centers aren't unique to oncology - since rheumatologists can also start/own an infusion centers (not for chemotherapy but for biologics/immunotherapy, although some of their drugs are basically chemotherapy but at a much lower dose)
 
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To make money there are several businesses available.
When you are doctor, your first priority should be curing the patient.
You will get the credit for it for 100% sure.

I can see doctors lead good lifestyle :)
 
To make money there are several businesses available.
When you are doctor, your first priority should be curing the patient.
You will get the credit for it for 100% sure.

I can see doctors lead good lifestyle :)
Sorry but how did this comment contribute to the discussion at hands.

Making money is just as important as being a good doctor for the patients. People forget that medicine is a job. Its main function is to earn living. Saying otherwise is either naive or dishonest.
 
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