How are people willing to take 450k+ debt?

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Likkriue

Likkriue

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Was crunching numbers today and by God, I thought my max of 300k, which is doable as long as I live like a bum for a few years was high.

But 450k to 500k? Really? And God save you if you have undergrad debt.

And then if you want to specialize.... Another 80k a year for two more years....
Just wondering what are your future plans pre-dents? Is it really wise to try and lease a condo/house you don't own?

One of the best posts in this thread:
whaleofatale said:
Here's the thing. It doesn't have to be that much. If you live frugally, don't fall into the health professions lifestyle trap, research outside scholarship opportunities, make time for part-time work, and generally put in the effort, you can graduate from dental school with "minimal" loans. The students that get into trouble are the individuals who blindly accept their loan package without actually considering that they can live for less than what the financial aid office budgets and don't bother to understand the implications that come with borrowing so heavily.
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Keep in mind it's another 500k if you want to open a practice after d school.
I think it boils down to your passion for dentistry and whether you believe you have what it takes to succeed in a changing market. I am exploring all of my options, but dentistry still is my top choice. Debt is doable if you are adaptive


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I suppose it depends on your upbringing/mindset, although that obviously isn't the complete answer! I come from a middle class family and, thankfully, my parents prioritize paying for our educations more than anything else. So I've been taught that as long as I get the best possible training/etc, money shouldn't be considered.
That being said, I've had my financially rough times as well where I had to pay for my tuition while in school and hold down 4-6 jobs at a time.

I'm applying for ~11 schools and a couple of them pass the 100k/year mark. But the only way I'd go is if the school were very prestigious or I have no other options. And then there's also the matter of confidence - some people believe they can handle that much debt. That being said, my dream school is in state and only costs around 25k which is part of the reason it's my dream school 🙂.

In summary, people could be willing to take tons of debt due to
- Upbringing
- The school is worth it
- Desperation
- Confidence
- Lack of undergrad debt
 
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Still better returns than what you can do with biology/science degree. Sucks that students have to make such a huge financial decision at the age of 18. By the time you are 22 with BS in Bio and DAT finished, there is really no turning back. I know its the sunk cost fallacy, but I feel that is how a lot of people feel after working their butt offs to get a high GPA, good DAT, and years of ECs.
 
dentalcpa90 said:
Still better returns than what you can do with biology/science degree. Sucks that students have to make such a huge financial decision at the age of 18. By the time you are 22 with BS in Bio and DAT finished, there is really no turning back. I know its the sunk cost fallacy, but I feel that is how a lot of people feel after working their butt offs to get a high GPA, good DAT, and years of ECs.
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With all due respect, I think biology is one of the most useless degrees as an undergraduate. Really, there is no plan b if you don't get in to dental school. Majoring in biology or chemistry never came to my mind.

I am a stem major, but looking back, I would definitely do business or engineering while finishing my prerequisites. You have more options if you don't get in.

Back to debt, there are always options. Military, DDS/PH.D., etc


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You can work at say a bank or sell cars without taking out debt, but the upside is greater here financially imo, and it's also more satisfying
 
Great topic, @Likkriue .

I think that it is important to consider the level of debt/student loans (and too many people do not do this), but I think it is even more important to have a plan to pay that debt back on your own (i.e. assuming PSLF/IBR/PAYE do NOT exist; if they exist, great, but if Congress changes the program, then what?)

If someone is going into school and does not have a plan of attack on how they will pay back those student loans independently- without external support- then they have not done their due diligence in my opinion and are seriously compromising their future.
 
Incis0r said:
Great topic, @Likkriue .

I think that it is important to consider the level of debt/student loans (and too many people do not do this), but I think it is even more important to have a plan to pay that debt back on your own (i.e. assuming PSLF/IBR/PAYE do NOT exist; if they exist, great, but if Congress changes the program, then what?)

If someone is going into school and does not have a plan of attack on how they will pay back those student loans independently- without external support- then they have not done their due diligence in my opinion and are seriously compromising their future.
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That's exactly what I'm getting at. I've been planning scenarios with different programs on how to tackle my possible future debt on my excel worksheet.

After some number crunching I have absolutely scratched off many schools that I believe will cause me problems in the future. The only schools above 300k I would go to are the Ivy Leagues cause contrary to what sdn says, everyone knows what Harvard is. And even then I would plan on doing some loan forgiveness programs.

I believe one of my mentors( a dentist that helps residents) told me NYU grads have the most issues after graduation because they are notorious for not doing research on how to tackle debt. If you don't live at home for NYU that's 450 debt. If I went, I know how to keep it at 300k cause I'll be mooching off my parents.
 
SrJulio said:
With all due respect, I think biology is one of the most useless degrees as an undergraduate. Really, there is no plan b if you don't get in to dental school. Majoring in biology or chemistry never came to my mind.

I am a stem major, but looking back, I would definitely do business or engineering while finishing my prerequisites. You have more options if you don't get in.

Back to debt, there are always options. Military, DDS/PH.D., etc


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Click to expand...

No doubt, majoring in chemistry or biology is an all-in move. Those of those that chose these routes knew that we would have the best chance of doing well on DAT with a more complete profile of science courses taken, beyond the prerequisites. However, many of us were also just more intrigued by the content.

I would challenge your assertion that biology is the most useless degree as an undergraduate because most admitted applicants are those who have obtained a biology degree. That alone proves its value. Additionally, there are many options for those who hold an undergraduate degree in biology, ranging from forensics to teaching. I could think of a dozen other majors that are more useless, including psychology, sociology, philosphy, and art history to name a few.
 
UKalum said:
No doubt, majoring in chemistry or biology is an all-in move. Those of those that chose these routes knew that we would have the best chance of doing well on DAT with a more complete profile of science courses taken, beyond the prerequisites. However, many of us were also just more intrigued by the content.

I would challenge your assertion that biology is the most useless degree as an undergraduate because most admitted applicants are those who have obtained a biology degree. That alone proves its value. Additionally, there are many options for those who hold an undergraduate degree in biology, ranging from forensics to teaching. I could think of a dozen other majors that are more useless, including psychology, sociology, philosphy, and art history to name a few.
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Sorry if I offended you, but I was saying that biology was the most useless stem major. Majors are like women's studies are truly something else. Most entry level jobs in biology or chemistry require a master or even a Ph.D. Of course, there are always exceptions. My state senator was a bio major.

I think most students who get accepted to d schools are bio majors, because there are so many of them, but if you have evidence to back your claim that bio students are better prepared for DAT because of the advanced electives they take, please share



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Likkriue said:
That's exactly what I'm getting at. I've been planning scenarios with different programs on how to tackle my possible future debt on my excel worksheet.

After some number crunching I have absolutely scratched off many schools that I believe will cause me problems in the future. The only schools above 300k I would go to are the Ivy Leagues cause contrary to what sdn says, everyone knows what Harvard is. And even then I would plan on doing some loan forgiveness programs.
Click to expand...

Beautiful- I love the fact that you are so proactive and are researching this. You will do well...keep it up!
 
Likkriue said:
Was crunching numbers today and by God, I thought my max of 300k, which is doable as long as I live like a bum for a few years was high.

But 450k to 500k? Really? And God save you if you have undergrad debt.

And then if you want to specialize.... Another 80k a year for two more years....
Just wondering what are your future plans pre-dents? Is it really wise to try and lease a condo/house you don't own?
Click to expand...

Here's the thing. It doesn't have to be that much. If you live frugally, don't fall into the health professions lifestyle trap, research outside scholarship opportunities, make time for part-time work, and generally put in the effort, you can graduate from dental school with "minimal" loans. The students that get into trouble are the individuals who blindly accept their loan package without actually considering that they can live for less than what the financial aid office budgets and don't bother to understand the implications that come with borrowing so heavily.
 
Likkriue said:
That's exactly what I'm getting at. I've been planning scenarios with different programs on how to tackle my possible future debt on my excel worksheet.

After some number crunching I have absolutely scratched off many schools that I believe will cause me problems in the future. The only schools above 300k I would go to are the Ivy Leagues cause contrary to what sdn says, everyone knows what Harvard is. And even then I would plan on doing some loan forgiveness programs.

I believe one of my mentors( a dentist that helps residents) told me NYU grads have the most issues after graduation because they are notorious for not doing research on how to tackle debt. If you don't live at home for NYU that's 450 debt. If I went, I know how to keep it at 300k cause I'll be mooching off my parents.
Click to expand...
Just as a point of information, everyone knows what Harvard is, but you'd be surprised at how many people don't know what Penn and Columbia are. If you apply/attend there, please don't let it be because it's an Ivy League. That alone is a ****ty reason to spend so much money. If you like the rest of the program, go ahead, but seriously please don't bank on the "Ivy League" thing
 
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SrJulio said:
With all due respect, I think biology is one of the most useless degrees as an undergraduate. Really, there is no plan b if you don't get in to dental school. Majoring in biology or chemistry never came to my mind.

I am a stem major, but looking back, I would definitely do business or engineering while finishing my prerequisites. You have more options if you don't get in.

Back to debt, there are always options. Military, DDS/PH.D., etc


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
Click to expand...

You can teach kids!
 
hellofuturedentists said:
Just as a point of information, everyone knows what Harvard is, but you'd be surprised at how many people don't know what Penn and Columbia are. If you apply/attend there, please don't let it be because it's an Ivy League. That alone is a ****ty reason to spend so much money. If you like the rest of the program, go ahead, but seriously please don't bank on the "Ivy League" thing
Click to expand...

Columbia wouldn't be a problem for me, in fact I would save some versus NYU. Penn if I get the Deans also wouldn't be too big of a factor either.
Certainly won't bank on the name, keeping it under 300k is priority.
 
There's a thread somewhere called "DO NOT GO INTO DENTISTRY... IT'S SATURATED" or something along that.
A lot of good talking points.

A recent poster said that a dental school rep told students that they are entering the "golden age" of dentistry. With the rising tuition and massive student debt, some feel like the golden age is over. What do y'all think?
 
Likkriue said:
That's exactly what I'm getting at. I've been planning scenarios with different programs on how to tackle my possible future debt on my excel worksheet.

After some number crunching I have absolutely scratched off many schools that I believe will cause me problems in the future. The only schools above 300k I would go to are the Ivy Leagues cause contrary to what sdn says, everyone knows what Harvard is. And even then I would plan on doing some loan forgiveness programs.

I believe one of my mentors( a dentist that helps residents) told me NYU grads have the most issues after graduation because they are notorious for not doing research on how to tackle debt. If you don't live at home for NYU that's 450 debt. If I went, I know how to keep it at 300k cause I'll be mooching off my parents.
Click to expand...

This is what I hear too. My friend's friend just graduated from NYU Dental. Last year I think. She said that she really doesn't know how to pay it all off. :/
 
DentalLonghorn2014 said:
There's a thread somewhere called "DO NOT GO INTO DENTISTRY... IT'S SATURATED" or something along that.
A lot of good talking points.

A recent poster said that a dental school rep told students that they are entering the "golden age" of dentistry. With the rising tuition and massive student debt, some feel like the golden age is over. What do y'all think?
Click to expand...

I think blindly attending a school for 450k+ without planning for the future wisely is foolish. However I believe the field is still strong, as shown by the competitiveness of the applicants. If and when the applicant pool starts to be of less quality, then the concerns should arise.
 
DentalLonghorn2014 said:
This is what I hear too. My friend's friend just graduated from NYU Dental. Last year I think. She said that she really doesn't know how to pay it all off. :/
Click to expand...

thats why I'm skeptical about NYU, with a class approaching 400 there's only so many resources to give the future grads. For those that live at home and commute it's no issue, it's the ones who are OOS and can't get free meals at home.
 
Likkriue said:
I think blindly attending a school for 450k+ without planning for the future wisely is foolish. However I believe the field is still strong, as shown by the competitiveness of the applicants. If and when the applicant pool starts to be of less quality, then the concerns should arise.
Click to expand...

True. That's what you said about pharamcy right? A 2.3 applicant got in or something like that.
 
In-state tuition for some applicants is decent. I'm an Illinois resident, so SIU and UIC are relatively inexpensive compared to other schools. I'm hoping the military helps out with the HPSP scholarship too, but that's super competitive.

You could always try to throw some student loans down at the casino...
 
In my case, I have a family member who is a dentist that plans on retiring soon. He took a look at my expected debt, said its no problem, and has worked out my future, including his retirement and my eventual inheritance of his practices. If I didn't have literally everything planned out for me, I would maybe reconsider.
 
Likkriue said:
Columbia wouldn't be a problem for me, in fact I would save some versus NYU. Penn if I get the Deans also wouldn't be too big of a factor either.
Certainly won't bank on the name, keeping it under 300k is priority.
Click to expand...
I haven't looked into the costs of those programs, but I'd be extremely surprised if Columbia ended up being under 300k. I could be wrong though. And I guess it's not relevant to me anyway. Good luck 🙂
 
Well, not having loans from undergrad certainly helps. I would never choose to attend a school as expensive as the one I'm going to and half **** my way through it. I want to specialize, I'm going to work hard, and I know it will happen. I won't stop until it does. You can't go into an expensive program and not think of why you are doing so. It also helps if you actually like the school and area you're going to be in.
 
I'm with you on the cost of some of these schools. If I don't get into my state school I'm going to apply for HPSP.. or maybe do more research on the IBE/PAYE programs and see if they are worth it. I definitely don't plan on ever being rich though just comfortable enough to live well and retire.
 
hellofuturedentists said:
I haven't looked into the costs of those programs, but I'd be extremely surprised if Columbia ended up being under 300k. I could be wrong though. And I guess it's not relevant to me anyway. Good luck 🙂
Click to expand...

my mistake, looked at old tuition charts. It's the same as NYU, about 80k but if you waive insurance that minuses 4K off. So around the low 300ks which I'm fine with. I'm mooching off my parents if I stay in NYC.
 
Likkriue said:
my mistake, looked at old tuition charts. It's the same as NYU, about 80k but if you waive insurance that minuses 4K off. So around the low 300ks which I'm fine with. I'm mooching off my parents if I stay in NYC.
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Oh lol if you take out cost of living expenses then of course the cost goes way down. We're on the same page now
 
I think this is a good thread/question, but also a question that's been answered and beaten to death. I'm not sure why people put tons of thought into it and love debating it. The answer is really quite simple. Be financially responsible while in school, and once you get out. Contrary to what a lot of sdn members say, dentists really do make good money. I have a friend who is a recent grad with 330k debt. Best advice from her is to work hard when you get out of school. You're not going to have your Porsche 5 years out of school, but if you are financially responsible and smart about your future, you will pay your debt off and live a comfortable life. It's not a stupid investment, it's an investment in your future, and in a great field. I'm starting my first year of dental school in August, and am I bitter about the cost? Absolutely, but i'll keep the costs as low as possible and pay back my loans, loans that financed an education that allow me to enter arguably one of the best professions and provide for a family. It's delayed gratification, thats all i'm viewing school as. If you don't have relatives in the business look at getting into a practice of an older dentist and acquire it that way, it's cheaper than starting from scratch. I guess in this slightly long-winded response, all I'm trying to get at is that we'll all be okay. Plan ahead and work hard (and don't complain), and invest your money wisely. We all know that dentistry is different than it was 20 years ago but it's still a great profession and a very desirable one at that.
 
I agree with these points. I also think people are very impatient and want quick results. When we graduate dental school we will probably be dentists for 30 years or so. If you are super smart and super committed, you can pay it off in 10-15 years. After that you have a good while still being a dentist without the debt. Yes its not ideal, but it can be done. Its just a longer path and not as quick a return on the investment. But aside from the finances, its a great career.
 
Joey333 said:
I think this is a good thread/question, but also a question that's been answered and beaten to death. I'm not sure why people put tons of thought into it and love debating it. The answer is really quite simple. Be financially responsible while in school, and once you get out. Contrary to what a lot of sdn members say, dentists really do make good money. I have a friend who is a recent grad with 330k debt. Best advice from her is to work hard when you get out of school. You're not going to have your Porsche 5 years out of school, but if you are financially responsible and smart about your future, you will pay your debt off and live a comfortable life. It's not a stupid investment, it's an investment in your future, and in a great field. I'm starting my first year of dental school in August, and am I bitter about the cost? Absolutely, but i'll keep the costs as low as possible and pay back my loans, loans that financed an education that allow me to enter arguably one of the best professions and provide for a family. It's delayed gratification, thats all i'm viewing school as. If you don't have relatives in the business look at getting into a practice of an older dentist and acquire it that way, it's cheaper than starting from scratch. I guess in this slightly long-winded response, all I'm trying to get at is that we'll all be okay. Plan ahead and work hard (and don't complain), and invest your money wisely. We all know that dentistry is different than it was 20 years ago but it's still a great profession and a very desirable one at that.
Click to expand...

It's been beaten to death for a good reason, when people open this thread they will gain a lot of insight from people such as you. 300k and 450k are two different beasts. The former is doable(from my calculations), the latter requires Superhuman effort. For example a 10 year repayment plan for 300k would total out to 456k payback. 25 years almost 650k. Now for 450k? You are paying back 650k in half the time a 25 year 300k loan does. $5,300 a month, out of your paycheck just for loans. That is cray cray.
 
Joey333 said:
dentists really do make good money.
Click to expand...

How much would you say a new grad (general; not specialized; not owning a practice due to high student loans) could make? How about 5 yrs in? 10 yrs in?
 
Likkriue said:
It's been beaten to death for a good reason, when people open this thread they will gain a lot of insight from people such as you. 300k and 450k are two different beasts. The former is doable(from my calculations), the latter requires Superhuman effort. For example a 10 year repayment plan for 300k would total out to 456k payback. 25 years almost 650k. Now for 450k? You are paying back 650k in half the time a 25 year 300k loan does. $5,300 a month, out of your paycheck just for loans. That is cray cray.
Click to expand...


I hear stripping makes good money on the side (srs). I have some financial backing from my parents but in case it doesn't pay for it all, I'll need a chiselled body to start paying off loans every Friday and Saturday night.
 
OrphanageCaretaker said:
I hear stripping makes good money on the side (srs). I have some financial backing from my parents but in case it doesn't pay for it all, I'll need a chiselled body to start paying off loans every Friday and Saturday night.
Click to expand...
After a few botched exams in undergrad, I had some thoughts about having to become a stripper. I finished my degree and felt relieved that I would never have to. Went off and got a Master's degree and felt even better about never having to.

Saw my first student loan award amount for dental school and now stripping doesn't seem so bad anymore.
I'll make more than I did as a teacher 😉
 
Incis0r said:
How much would you say a new grad (general; not specialized; not owning a practice due to high student loans) could make? How about 5 yrs in? 10 yrs in?
Click to expand...

This probably isn't the norm but my dad told me a dentist friend hired an associate with a salary of $175,000.
I think they knew each other very well and the owner was much older.
 
Likkriue said:
It's been beaten to death for a good reason, when people open this thread they will gain a lot of insight from people such as you. 300k and 450k are two different beasts. The former is doable(from my calculations), the latter requires Superhuman effort. For example a 10 year repayment plan for 300k would total out to 456k payback. 25 years almost 650k. Now for 450k? You are paying back 650k in half the time a 25 year 300k loan does. $5,300 a month, out of your paycheck just for loans. That is cray cray.
Click to expand...
I agree. It is a real issue and threads like these are necessary, they are just tiring haha. I honestly think the best thing you can do is put a plan in place to throw as much money as you can at your loans to eliminate a big chunk of the interest. I'll let you know in 4 years how it works :dead:
 
fogorvostan said:
After a few botched exams in undergrad, I had some thoughts about having to become a stripper. I finished my degree and felt relieved that I would never have to. Went off and got a Master's degree and felt even better about never having to.

Saw my first student loan award amount for dental school and now stripping doesn't seem so bad anymore.
I'll make more than I did as a teacher 😉
Click to expand...

You were the one with the masters in pubic health right? Or am I thinking of someone else?
 
fogorvostan said:
After a few botched exams in undergrad, I had some thoughts about having to become a stripper. I finished my degree and felt relieved that I would never have to. Went off and got a Master's degree and felt even better about never having to.

Saw my first student loan award amount for dental school and now stripping doesn't seem so bad anymore.
I'll make more than I did as a teacher 😉
Click to expand...

Lmao I think everyone has thought about stripping after a few screw ups on exams. But it can bring in the money...
 
DentalLonghorn2014 said:
I thought so! Which concentration if I may ask?
Sorry OP! I won't drag this on lol
Click to expand...
Epidemiology 🙂

I LOVED my mph program and the work I did. I came down to the conclusion that I could spend four years and get my Phd in epi and work for the government making nothing for the rest of my life... Or I could spend four years and go into dentistry (my second love).

Annnnnddd here we are! Hahaha
 
fogorvostan said:
Epidemiology 🙂

I LOVED my mph program and the work I did. I came down to the conclusion that I could spend four years and get my Phd in epi and work for the government making nothing for the rest of my life... Or I could spend four years and go into dentistry (my second love).

Annnnnddd here we are! Hahaha
Click to expand...

Ah neat!! I was considering going that route too. It is interesting. Public health dentistry is a real thing too! Maybe you could end up there!
 
DentalNucleicAcid said:
You could work abroad for a few years after you graduate and be able to pay off your loans a lot faster because the income tax elsewhere is very small, if there is any at all. Meaning your gross is the same as your net. Dubai is a good example, plenty of Americans there. The only catch here is you have to be willing to get out of your comfort zone and live in a foreign country for a little bit.
Click to expand...

Wouldn't you need to be able to speak Arabic?
 
DentalNucleicAcid said:
You could work abroad for a few years after you graduate and be able to pay off your loans a lot faster because the income tax elsewhere is very small, if there is any at all. Meaning your gross is the same as your net. Dubai is a good example, plenty of Americans there. The only catch here is you have to be willing to get out of your comfort zone and live in a foreign country for a little bit.
Click to expand...

If you are a US citizen, "Your worldwide income is subject to U.S. income tax, regardless of where you reside."
https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/taxpayers-living-abroad

So the catch would also include income tax evasion.

Edited to add: The latest threshold for tax-free earnings for US citizens is $97,600 of foreign earned income. You still are required to file every year. So you'll be "double taxed" on anything you earn over 97,600. Perhaps you could still get a tax break, provided you go somewhere that will have a comparable dentist salary and low income tax rate. Most other English-speaking countries have higher tax rates than the US. I personally won't practice in the Middle East to save on taxes. Freedom isn't free.
 
Last edited:
rmarder said:
Eh I've been to Dubai and basically everyone I met spoke English. Although I would hate to live there for an extended period of time.
Click to expand...

Well strep mutans jsut shot that down lol.
 
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