Pre Dents: How much debt will you take?

[askadds]

You are over-paying your employees. I pay my office manager $20 an hour + $20 bonus for every new case acceptance. She has been with me for 20+ years. At 56, she is not gonna go find another job. She’ll stay with me until she retires. I pay my chairside assistant also $20 an hour and she is not an average assistant. She can assist ortho and perio surgeries. She can answer phone calls, sells cases, mops the floor, sterilizes instruments, takes x rays (PAs, Pano and Ceph) etc. this one has been with me for 15 years. I cross train both of them to perform multiple tasks so I don’t have to hire a lot of assistants.

It’s time for dentists to let go these overpaid hygienists and do their own cleanings. One can save $100k or more per year for not hiring the hygienist.

The staff salaries should be less than 15% of your overhead.

Your employees have been with you a long time, you should realize that once its time to find someone new, reality will hit you hard. Thats if you can even get someone to apply.

Your solutions are to cut costs down and have accepted your fate that you will never make more. Does that sound like a reality for the newer docs? I see you have been a dentist for a good while now, pls tell the folks on here when was the last time you got a fee schedule increase with delta dental which hands down is the biggest dental insurance out there. Me personally, 10 yrs and no increases, brother has been a DDS since 2003 and he has seen zero increases.

Again folks, don't look at the outliers (I am one myself) and think that's the reality. The truth is most of the docs are middle pack and the middle doesn't look good.

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[askadds]

That’s nearly new dentist money. Imagine being an NYU, USC, etc grad with $700,000 in student loans making as much as your hygienist.

Big Hoss

I literally lost a HYG recently. Was giving her $55/hour and she took a job for $67!

 

[Thehighwind87]

I literally lost a HYG recently. Was giving her $55/hour and she took a job for $67!

60-75 in my area recently. 75 for downtown which means like 1-2 hour commutes. 60-65 in suburbia no commute.

Full benefits. Easy 100-120k package with 2 years of schooling and maybe 40k debt.

My cpa says it's easier to hire a new grad part time- pay them no benefits, and then 60-70 an hour. Due to the no benefit package- you end up coming ahead. And new grads are easier to find then hygienists since schools are pumping them out with big loans. So can easily pick up a DDS to do hygiene.

 

[Thehighwind87]

You are over-paying your employees. I pay my office manager $20 an hour + $20 bonus for every new case acceptance. She has been with me for 20+ years. At 56, she is not gonna go find another job. She’ll stay with me until she retires. I pay my chairside assistant also $20 an hour and she is not an average assistant. She can assist ortho and perio surgeries. She can answer phone calls, sells cases, mops the floor, sterilizes instruments, takes x rays (PAs, Pano and Ceph) etc. this one has been with me for 15 years. I cross train both of them to perform multiple tasks so I don’t have to hire a lot of assistants.

It’s time for dentists to let go these overpaid hygienists and do their own cleanings. One can save $100k or more per year for not hiring the hygienist.

The staff salaries should be less than 15% of your overhead.

20$ an hour? Safeway- the local grocery store- (grocery store pays 25$ an hour) in my area.

No offense but these wages just won't fly in most areas of america. You should be happy that they are pretty much oblivious to how underpaid they are. Front here is 35$, and assistant is 33. Assistant is crosstrained for front and back.

If I put an ad out for 20$ to reduce staff salaries to 15%, I wouldn't get one resume. If I put 25, I would get zero still. Working at safeway would prob be better.

 

[askadds]

20$ an hour? Safeway- the local grocery store- (grocery store pays 25$ an hour) in my area.

No offense but these wages just won't fly in most areas of america. You should be happy that they are pretty much oblivious to how underpaid they are. Front here is 35$, and assistant is 33. Assistant is crosstrained for front and back.

If I put an ad out for 20$ to reduce staff salaries to 15%, I wouldn't get one resume. If I put 25, I would get zero still. Working at safeway would prob be better.

Finally a doc who is in touch with reality. Pls predents, look at these posts and demand a change from the schools and ADA and the AEDA. We are giving you guys the real information about what is happening. The future is terrible for dentistry on this trajectory. I would argue its already there but there may still be chance to make changes in your life, this career and how it moves forward. It really in yalls hands now.

 

[charlestweed]

20$ an hour? Safeway- the local grocery store- (grocery store pays 25$ an hour) in my area.

No offense but these wages just won't fly in most areas of america. You should be happy that they are pretty much oblivious to how underpaid they are. Front here is 35$, and assistant is 33. Assistant is crosstrained for front and back.

If I put an ad out for 20$ to reduce staff salaries to 15%, I wouldn't get one resume. If I put 25, I would get zero still. Working at safeway would prob be better.

The better paid $25/hr job at Safeway probably requires a lot more work than working at a dental office. If my assistants feel I don’t pay them enough and want a better pay job at a grocery store, they can go ahead and leave. I lost 2 of my very good male assistants to truck driving companies. They both passed the truck driving exam and are now driving trucks for a living. The salary for a truck driver is pretty good but I am sure that the amount of work (and stress level) is also many times higher than working at my office. But hey, nothing in life is easy…the harder you work, the more money you make….no pain, no gain.

I don’t think my $20/hr office manager can get a job somewhere else because of her “unfriendly” personality. A lot of my patients don’t like the way she talks to them and asks for payments from them. But it’s ok for me because I have a track record of doing good work for so many years and patients have to see me if they want an affordable treatment fee. She is the only person who is worth keeping because she is reliable and has never called in sick. I can trust her with handling my money. Everyone else in my office can be replaced. I can train any person to become an assistant. Here in CA, the dental field is oversaturated…..we have a surplus of dentists and we also have a surplus of dental/ortho assistants as well.

Last week, I got a text message from my former employee (one of the truck drivers whom I mentioned in the previous paragraph). He wanted to introduce his friend, who is an OA (ortho assistant), to me.

 

[charlestweed]

Your employees have been with you a long time, you should realize that once its time to find someone new, reality will hit you hard. Thats if you can even get someone to apply.

Your solutions are to cut costs down and have accepted your fate that you will never make more. Does that sound like a reality for the newer docs? I see you have been a dentist for a good while now, pls tell the folks on here when was the last time you got a fee schedule increase with delta dental which hands down is the biggest dental insurance out there. Me personally, 10 yrs and no increases, brother has been a DDS since 2003 and he has seen zero increases.

Again folks, don't look at the outliers (I am one myself) and think that's the reality. The truth is most of the docs are middle pack and the middle doesn't look good.

I’ve seen so many people who have college degrees and are struggling to find good paying jobs. I am glad I am in a stable dental field. During the 2008 recession, many people in my neighborhood lost their houses. And guess who bought those bank-owned foreclosed houses? Dentists and doctors because they had stable high paying jobs and didn’t have any problem qualifying for the home loans.

I am not one of the outliers. If I was good, I wouldn't have to keep the treatment fees low to attract patients. And to make up for the low fees, I have to see higher volume of patients and learn to work more efficiently. In addition to working for myself, I still have to work P/T for the corp to supplement my income. I think the only thing that I differ from most of my colleagues is I work a lot harder than them. I don’t have the mentality that “I had spent 10 years of schooling and therefore, I deserve a good salary without having to put in any effort.”. Nothing in life is easy.

 

[DDS9994]

That's true; it is a 1-2 year process to become a pilot ( around $80k debt). Then you fly for a regional for another 2 years (salary around $60k). Then your goal is to join a major airline like Delta, United, FedEx, etc., after having 1500 hours in the plane. After joining your major: First officers usually make around $100k their first year (stock and profit sharing), and then Senior Captains can range $250k-$500k depending on the plane they fly and the airlines. But the flight benefits, stock, profit sharing, and hours are unbelievable (20 hours a week). Way higher average hourly pay than dentists.

Pilot Career Earnings Top $13M, According to Flight School - FLYING Magazine

When it comes to salary, airline pilot career earnings are comparable to a doctor, lawyer, or engineer, according to Sling Aviation Academy.

www.flyingmag.com

Random article I found comparing engineers, pilots, lawyers, and doctors. Most pilots do get a bachelor's degree though, very few don't.

This is all true, I have 2 pts that are pilots for United, the schedule are pretty cool, the benefits are insane, right off the top United pays 17% of your salary into a retirement account wether you put anything in or not, their collective bargaining is no joke, they pretty much get nice raises every year, during the pandemic, i think he told me the pilots at United pretty much got paid for almost 2 years. ITs a nice gig from what he tells me, and they just raised retirement to 65 I think.

 

[DDS9994]

You are over-paying your employees. I pay my office manager $20 an hour + $20 bonus for every new case acceptance. She has been with me for 20+ years. At 56, she is not gonna go find another job. She’ll stay with me until she retires. I pay my chairside assistant also $20 an hour and she is not an average assistant. She can assist ortho and perio surgeries. She can answer phone calls, sells cases, mops the floor, sterilizes instruments, takes x rays (PAs, Pano and Ceph) etc. this one has been with me for 15 years. I cross train both of them to perform multiple tasks so I don’t have to hire a lot of assistants.

It’s time for dentists to let go these overpaid hygienists and do their own cleanings. One can save $100k or more per year for not hiring the hygienist.

The staff salaries should be less than 15% of your overhead.

Charles I know you are in SOCAL, I am surprised you can find employees that you can pay that much there, I honestly dont see how you can make 20 bucks an hour work in SOCAL these days based on the price of rent, taxes, gas, etc.

 

[Slueman33]

Finally a doc who is in touch with reality. Pls predents, look at these posts and demand a change from the schools and ADA and the AEDA. We are giving you guys the real information about what is happening. The future is terrible for dentistry on this trajectory. I would argue its already there but there may still be chance to make changes in your life, this career and how it moves forward. It really in yalls hands now.

In what world would the ADA, ADEA, and CODA, care about the opinions of dentistry’s future from a predent? No sir. It is in the hands of active members of dental organizations, I.e. those with the DDS, DMD membership…IF dentists have the backbone of pharmacists, letting the field get trashed, then that’s exactly what will happen. Truthfully, no one will really move the needle here, but if it’s anyone that will, it ain’t a student.

 

[charlestweed]

Charles I know you are in SOCAL, I am surprised you can find employees that you can pay that much there, I honestly dont see how you can make 20 bucks an hour work in SOCAL these days based on the price of rent, taxes, gas, etc.

I raised both of my FT employees' salaries to $20/hour in January of this year. Last year, one of them made $18/hr and the other one made $19/hr + bonus. The reason they have stayed with me for so long is the job is very easy. They only work hard on the days (2.5 days a week....3.5 hrs a day) that we have patients. For the other days of the week, they can just chill and get paid. It's much easier than working at the McDonald, which requires their employees to work nonstop for 8 hours, 5 days a week....and McDonald pay much less than $20/hr. Both of my employees get all the benefits, except health insurance. There are probably better paid jobs for these 2 of my employees to get but will the new jobs be as easy (and low stress) as what they have now?

Most of my employees, part time and full time, live with their extended family members to save money on rents and food.

 

[Thehighwind87]

I raised both of my FT employees' salaries to $20/hour in January of this year. Last year, one of them made $18/hr and the other one made $19/hr + bonus. The reason they have stayed with me for so long is the job is very easy. They only work hard on the days (2.5 days a week....3.5 hrs a day) that we have patients. For the other days of the week, they can just chill and get paid. It's much easier than working at the McDonald, which requires their employees to work nonstop for 8 hours, 5 days a week....and McDonald pay much less than $20/hr. Both of my employees get all the benefits, except health insurance. There are probably better paid jobs for these 2 of my employees to get but will the new jobs be as easy (and low stress) as what they have now?

Most of my employees, part time and full time, live with their extended family members to save money on rents and food.

Dam you should consider yourself lucky and blessed. This is an extreme outlier. There is no way you can hire like that in my area. I’ve never heard of 18-20$ an hour in this day and age especially after Covid. I would hold onto those employees for dear life.

 

[charlestweed]

Dam you should consider yourself lucky and blessed. This is an extreme outlier. There is no way you can hire like that in my area. I’ve never heard of 18-20$ an hour in this day and age especially after Covid. I would hold onto those employees for dear life.

My sister, who is a GP, and many of my GP friends pay their staff similar to what I pay mine. These are non-skilled unlicensed workers. You can train any person to become an assistant. You shouldn't pay them like the ones who have the RDA license. I pay my part time chairside ortho RDAs very well though....$160-180 a day for working (nonstop) only 3.5 hrs a day. To save in overhead, I only hire these ortho RDAs on the days that we see patients.

You guys, dentists who are practicing outside of CA, can afford to pay your staff more because you guys charge much higher fees and have a lot more patients than us, CA dentists. Many dentists in CA have to accept medicaid and do their own cleanings in order to keep themselves busy.

 

[askadds]

In what world would the ADA, ADEA, and CODA, care about the opinions of dentistry’s future from a predent? No sir. It is in the hands of active members of dental organizations, I.e. those with the DDS, DMD membership…IF dentists have the backbone of pharmacists, letting the field get trashed, then that’s exactly what will happen. Truthfully, no one will really move the needle here, but if it’s anyone that will, it ain’t a student.

Who pays their salary? You do by taking out such a huge loan. We are doing our part by dropping insurances and dropping ADA memberships. Look at how much membership has declined over the years. Get real, you gotta make an attempt, you have to seek answers from these schools. Knowing everything we are saying to you, your answer is "it aint a student"?

 

[askadds]

I’ve seen so many people who have college degrees and are struggling to find good paying jobs. I am glad I am in a stable dental field. During the 2008 recession, many people in my neighborhood lost their houses. And guess who bought those bank-owned foreclosed houses? Dentists and doctors because they had stable high paying jobs and didn’t have any problem qualifying for the home loans.

I am not one of the outliers. If I was good, I wouldn't have to keep the treatment fees low to attract patients. And to make up for the low fees, I have to see higher volume of patients and learn to work more efficiently. In addition to working for myself, I still have to work P/T for the corp to supplement my income. I think the only thing that I differ from most of my colleagues is I work a lot harder than them. I don’t have the mentality that “I had spent 10 years of schooling and therefore, I deserve a good salary without having to put in any effort.”. Nothing in life is easy.

So your are agreeing that pay keeps going down and your only solution is to cut costs? I dont see how this is okay. Inflation adjusted you have seen about a 20% decrease in your take home since 2010. SMH

 

[Thehighwind87]

So your are agreeing that pay keeps going down and your only solution is to cut costs? I dont see how this is okay. Inflation adjusted you have seen about a 20% decrease in your take home since 2010. SMH

Dentists are eating the 2 2ways:
1) Overhead creep- wages/supplies/subscription costs all up
2) Real world inflation.

The past 2 years have taught me a hard lesson what it all means. Pre-covid, inflation was 1-2% but the past 2 years has been 10%. Not only did I have to give raises of about 10-25%, (and therefore take a paycut myself), I had to also face the reality of 10% inflation in the real world. I wouldn't be surprised if my purchasing powerincome dropped 20% over the past 2 years.

I'm still financially ok in general- but I am definitely saving and planning for early retirement because as time goes on 2023-24-25-26, I wouldn't be surprised to see inflation at 3-5% while our pay continues to decrease- and working harder for less is just demoralizing.

What is funny and sad, is that I had to get rid of my fish tank. After taking a 10-20% paycut, I basically looked at all the misc items in the office and said well 50$ cable, 200$ fish tank makes no sense. Cya later.

 

[charlestweed]

So your are agreeing that pay keeps going down and your only solution is to cut costs? I dont see how this is okay.

No, cutting costs is just a small solution. Working harder (see more patients per day….work more days per week…fire your hygienist and do you own cleanings etc) is a much better way to increase your income. And that’s what we, California dentists, have done to overcome the insurance pay cuts and oversaturation. That’s how we make more than our colleagues, who practice in less saturated states. Many recent grads here have claimed that they work 4 days/wk and make $200-250k/year. Imagine if they add 1 more work day like most people, who work in America, they can easily add another $50-100k more per year, which should help them shorten their working career by at least 5 years. I know the recommendation to work harder is not very popular here. Nobody likes to work harder. The whole point of sacrificing 8+ years of schooling is to work less and make more. Well, nothing in life is easy. You have to work harder if you want to make more money. This is applicable to all professions, and not just dentistry. If an engineer shows up for work and performs the same repetitive work every single day, he’s not gonna get a raise…his job may be taken away by a new grad, who has more up to date knowledge. If he switches to better pay job, he’ll have to assume much bigger responsibility (aka working harder).

Inflation adjusted you have seen about a 20% decrease in your take home since 2010. SMH

You have to take the inflation off this discussion. It's a constant variable.....it hurts everyone, and not just us, dentists. Everyone has less purchasing power because of it.

Despite a decline in dental income, dentists still make a lot more than a lot of other professions (including medicine if you look at the hourly wage) out there. That’s why many dentists, who are in their early to mid 50s, can start slowing down and enjoying life while many engineers, who are at same age, start to worry about losing their jobs to younger grads. I worked 6 days/wk or 25 days/month when I was in my 30s. Now, I only work 17 days/month because I am debt-free. I only work 3.5 hours/day when I work at my own offices (10 days/month).

Job stability is another plus of dentistry. Even at 51, I am still valuable to the corp office…..and to my patients. The managers have begged me to work more days for them because the new grads they hire are too slow. Dentistry is not just about doing the manual labor but it also requires the doctor’s ability to diagnose and tx plan…..and this ability gets better with more years of experience. People who are in their 50s start to worry about losing their jobs but not for us, dentists. Banks have no problem giving out loans to dentists and doctors because they know we have stable recession proof jobs.

 

[charlestweed]

...and working harder for less is just demoralizing.

But this “less amount” that you are referring to is still a lot more than what 90% of the American workers make…and they are working 5 days/week. Many have to work 2 jobs to support their family. We are still in the top 5-10%.

 

[askadds]

No, cutting costs is just a small solution. Working harder (see more patients per day….work more days per week…fire your hygienist and do you own cleanings etc) is a much better way to increase your income. And that’s what we, California dentists, have done to overcome the insurance pay cuts and oversaturation. That’s how we make more than our colleagues, who practice in less saturated states. Many recent grads here have claimed that they work 4 days/wk and make $200-250k/year. Imagine if they add 1 more work day like most people, who work in America, they can easily add another $50-100k more per year, which should help them shorten their working career by at least 5 years. I know the recommendation to work harder is not very popular here. Nobody likes to work harder. The whole point of sacrificing 8+ years of schooling is to work less and make more. Well, nothing in life is easy. You have to work harder if you want to make more money. This is applicable to all professions, and not just dentistry. If an engineer shows up for work and performs the same repetitive work every single day, he’s not gonna get a raise…his job may be taken away by a new grad, who has more up to date knowledge. If he switches to better pay job, he’ll have to assume much bigger responsibility (aka working harder).

Despite a decline in dental income, dentists still make a lot more than a lot of other professions (including medicine if you look at the hourly wage) out there. That’s why many dentists, who are in their early to mid 50s, can start slowing down and enjoying life while many engineers, who are at same age, start to worry about losing their jobs to younger grads. I worked 6 days/wk or 25 days/month when I was in my 30s. Now, I only work 17 days/month because I am debt-free. I only work 3.5 hours/day when I work at my own offices (10 days/month).

Job stability is another plus of dentistry. Even at 51, I am still valuable to the corp office…..and to my patients. The managers have begged me to work more days for them because the new grads they hire are too slow. Dentistry is not just about doing the manual labor but it also requires the doctor’s ability to diagnose and tx plan…..and this ability gets better with more years of experience. People who are in their 50s start to worry about losing their jobs but not for us, dentists. Banks have no problem giving out loans to dentists and doctors because they know we have stable recession proof jobs.

Are you on DT?

"But this “less amount” that you are referring to is still a lot more than what 90% of the American workers make" --> what is that supposed to mean? We are supposed to accept this? 90% of American workers don't borrow 400k for their education and another 400k to build a practice (sorry 200k in your situation probably). 90% of American workers see 1-3% increase in pay annually, while dentists have seen 1-3% decrease for a good decade. I truly understand what you're saying but you are straight up settling and accepting the decrease in pay while compensating by working harder and then saying "well I still do better than 90% of Americans." Sorry to break it to you but you're argument has no legs. You are unique situation because that's the reality you have created in your own mind.

 

[Ryxndek]

are you on DT?

He's orthodontist I believe

 

[Thehighwind87]

But this “less amount” that you are referring to is still a lot more than what 90% of the American workers make…and they are working 5 days/week. Many have to work 2 jobs to support their family. We are still in the top 5-10%.

I guess I should be happy taking a paycut year over year.

I mean it sounds nonsensical but I guess it is what it is.

In any other job if I told someone hey be happy you have a job but I’m decreasing your wages 2% year over year they would laugh.

I guess I should be happy

 

[charlestweed]

Are you on DT?

"But this “less amount” that you are referring to is still a lot more than what 90% of the American workers make" --> what is that supposed to mean? We are supposed to accept this? 90% of American workers don't borrow 400k for their education and another 400k to build a practice (sorry 200k in your situation probably). 90% of American workers see 1-3% increase in pay annually, while dentists have seen 1-3% decrease for a good decade. I truly understand what you're saying but you are straight up settling and accepting the decrease in pay while compensating by working harder and then saying "well I still do better than 90% of Americans." Sorry to break it to you but you're argument has no legs. You are unique situation because that's the reality you have created in your own mind.

I have a DT account but I don’t visit the site very often. I am a more frequent poster at the Orthotown, which is the forum for orthodontists, and it’s the same “doom and gloom” attitude there as well. Most of my ortho colleagues there are in agreement with you more than with me.

High dental income (if they work hard 5 days a week like most Americans) should allow most dentists to pay back their student loan debts. They are in much better financial shape than a person who has a History degree and has 60-70k debt.

 

[charlestweed]

I guess I should be happy taking a paycut year over year.

I mean it sounds nonsensical but I guess it is what it is.

In any other job if I told someone hey be happy you have a job but I’m decreasing your wages 2% year over year they would laugh.

I guess I should be happy

In any other job, they don't tell you that they will decrease your wage....they let you go when there is a recession....when they don't need you anymore. Job stability is a plus in dentistry

 

[Thehighwind87]

In any other job, they don't tell you that they will decrease your wage....they let you go when there is a recession....when they don't need you anymore. Job stability is a plus in dentistry

That is true. The last real recession ( I don’t see 2020 as a recession) we had was 15 years ago… so while I do agree that healthcare is recession proof which is a huge benefit- it certainly hasn’t happened in my career yet.

And every time we get close to a recession- the govt intervenes and prints more money- just look at the sivb bank.

So recession? Yeah. But if there’s never any recession then it’s not really a perk. Lol

 

[charlestweed]

Why do my opinions differ from my colleagues? 15-20 years ago, many of my ortho colleagues made a lot of money and had a very lavish lifestyle. But then, a lot of new ortho programs opened up and have caused the field to become more saturated. They no longer earned the same income and felt disappointed. Unlike them, I didn't make anywhere near what they made when I was a new grad like them because California was already a very saturated market state. I had to charge way below national average fee to attract patients. I treat mostly low income patients.....the type of patients that my colleagues largely ignore. And with hard work and experience, I have slowly increased my income over the years. The corp that I work part time for recently gave me a $200 per day raise because I have never asked for a raise since I started working there 15+ years ago.

Another reason why my opinions differ is being an immigrant and living in poverty during my childhood years have allowed me to see the opportunities that this great country has offered me....something that my kids who were born here will never be able to see. My colleagues felt sorry for me when I told them I work on Saturdays and Sundays. I feel sorry for them that they still have debt and still have to worry about things like inflation and recession etc. I am 100% debt free.

 

[charlestweed]

This is all true, I have 2 pts that are pilots for United, the schedule are pretty cool, the benefits are insane, right off the top United pays 17% of your salary into a retirement account wether you put anything in or not, their collective bargaining is no joke, they pretty much get nice raises every year, during the pandemic, i think he told me the pilots at United pretty much got paid for almost 2 years. ITs a nice gig from what he tells me, and they just raised retirement to 65 I think.

Here are the stories of the 2 airline pilots who quit their jobs because of the long crazy non-pay commutes to work...and unpredictable work schedules. I'd rather be a dentist.

 

[OncePreDent]

Here are the stories of the 2 airline pilots who quit their jobs because of the long crazy non-pay commutes to work...and unpredictable work schedules. I'd rather be a dentist.

Honestly, these pilots weren't doing it the right way. You need to fly for a major airline, it makes a huge difference. A little background; my dad is a dentist, and my mom is a pilot for Delta. We have many family friends that are pilots, and it is truly an incredible job. She typically works 3 days a week; only flys day trips now (flies to her destination and back home). We have many family friends who are pilots who are happily married with kids, and we all have the same understanding of the job/think it's incredible.

Honestly, it is one of the best jobs you can have for your family if you're doing it the right way. Whenever they hear that pilots shouldn't be married or have a family, kids, etc. they get confused because they have the most relaxed schedule compared to your typical 8-5 job. You have significantly more free time to spend with your kids during the work week. Of course, you fly weekends, it's part of the job, and you fly holidays too (when you first start or want double pay). One close family friend flies for UPS or FedEx, and they fly an international route in China. Their schedule differs greatly from Delta, United, American, etc. They fly 10 days straight (in China) and then 20 days off every month (bringing in around $500k a year). The funny thing is if you grow up in a family with a pilot, then most likely, some of your kids will become pilots (all of their kids are pilots now).

Becoming a pilot isn't for everyone, just like dentistry isn't. But for people that love traveling, are okay with being alone, and are obsessed with aviation, then it's really for you. The pilots I've talked to describe flying as a form of meditation, just relaxing away from all of the technology when you're in the air, and you get to go on your own little vacation when you land. How does flying to Mexico and getting paid to say at an all-inclusive resort for a day in the middle of February sound? Or flying to Alaska and going hiking and fishing sound? Or flying to San Deigo to go surfing or paddle boarding in the heart of the winter? Oh, did I forget to mention that it pays well too? And that your husband/wife or kids can fly with for a weekend vacation? Sounds like a rough life to me.

The schedule is extremely predictable for delta; you choose the flights you want based on your seniority for the type of plane. So if there are a total of 150 First Officers that fly an Airbus A220 and your seniority is 20/150, you will have some of the best flights every month. However, when you first start, you will be 150/150 and have the last choice for flights (typically 3-5 day trips). Overall, it's an incredible job, and I consider it one of the best jobs for those that love aviation. You can make some really good money, have plenty of free time for a family, plus have many travel benefits too (discounted or free flights for you and your family.). But it's a job that should only be considered for those that love aviation and traveling!

 

[OncePreDent]

This is all true, I have 2 pts that are pilots for United, the schedule are pretty cool, the benefits are insane, right off the top United pays 17% of your salary into a retirement account wether you put anything in or not, their collective bargaining is no joke, they pretty much get nice raises every year, during the pandemic, i think he told me the pilots at United pretty much got paid for almost 2 years. ITs a nice gig from what he tells me, and they just raised retirement to 65 I think.

Yes, I believe you're right for delta you are forced to retire at 65 years old. I know it used to be 63 and they are considering 67 now as well.

 

[charlestweed]

Honestly, these pilots weren't doing it the right way. You need to fly for a major airline, it makes a huge difference. A little background; my dad is a dentist, and my mom is a pilot for Delta. We have many family friends that are pilots, and it is truly an incredible job. She typically works 3 days a week; only flys day trips now (flies to her destination and back home). We have many family friends who are pilots who are happily married with kids, and we all have the same understanding of the job/think it's incredible.

Honestly, it is one of the best jobs you can have for your family if you're doing it the right way. Whenever they hear that pilots shouldn't be married or have a family, kids, etc. they get confused because they have the most relaxed schedule compared to your typical 8-5 job. You have significantly more free time to spend with your kids during the work week. Of course, you fly weekends, it's part of the job, and you fly holidays too (when you first start or want double pay). One close family friend flies for UPS or FedEx, and they fly an international route in China. Their schedule differs greatly from Delta, United, American, etc. They fly 10 days straight (in China) and then 20 days off every month (bringing in around $500k a year). The funny thing is if you grow up in a family with a pilot, then most likely, some of your kids will become pilots (all of their kids are pilots now).

Becoming a pilot isn't for everyone, just like dentistry isn't. But for people that love traveling, are okay with being alone, and are obsessed with aviation, then it's really for you. The pilots I've talked to describe flying as a form of meditation, just relaxing away from all of the technology when you're in the air, and you get to go on your own little vacation when you land. How does flying to Mexico and getting paid to say at an all-inclusive resort for a day in the middle of February sound? Or flying to Alaska and going hiking and fishing sound? Or flying to San Deigo to go surfing or paddle boarding in the heart of the winter? Oh, did I forget to mention that it pays well too? And that your husband/wife or kids can fly with for a weekend vacation? Sounds like a rough life to me.

The schedule is extremely predictable for delta; you choose the flights you want based on your seniority for the type of plane. So if there are a total of 150 First Officers that fly an Airbus A220 and your seniority is 20/150, you will have some of the best flights every month. However, when you first start, you will be 150/150 and have the last choice for flights (typically 3-5 day trips). Overall, it's an incredible job, and I consider it one of the best jobs for those that love aviation. You can make some really good money, have plenty of free time for a family, plus have many travel benefits too (discounted or free flights for you and your family.). But it's a job that should only be considered for those that love aviation and traveling!

To get to the senior level, you must first have to be a junior pilot, which demands many years of hard work and sacrifice. To be in the position where your mom is at right now, she had to work really hard when she was younger. One advantage that your mom has that other pilots may not have is your dad also earns very good income. The pilot, who has a stay-at-home wife and is the only income earner in a household, has to work a lot more hours …..and has to fly more often to support his family.

I am pretty sure that the senior pilot positions are limited, especially at the “good” airline company. If it’s so easy, then everybody would become a senior pilot and there would be very few junior pilots out there. The senior pilots who have good benefits, good work hours (same day fly….same day home) and good salary compensations, will hang on to their jobs for a long time…..and makes it harder for the younger junior pilots to move up the ladder.

Dentistry also offers a lot of nice things, if you work hard. In order for me to enjoy the current lifestyle that I have now, I had to work 6 days/wk when I was a new grad. Nothing is easy in life. There’s no such thing as easy money….or get rich quick.

For me personally, one thing I hate the most about vacation away from home is flying….I hate waiting at the airports….I hate flying. I don’t know how the pilots can do this every day for so many years.

If you think your mom’s job is better, then why do you decide to follow your dad’s footsteps? I am just curious.

 

[OncePreDent]

"To get to the senior level, you must first have to be a junior pilot, which demands many years of hard work and sacrifice. To be in the position where your mom is at right now, she had to work really hard when she was younger. One advantage that your mom has that other pilots may not have is your dad also earns very good income. The pilot, who has a stay-at-home wife and is the only income earner in a household, has to work a lot more hours …..and has to fly more often to support his family."

You are absolutely right; before joining a major airline, when she wasn't married or had kids, she worked 6-7 days a week. She wanted to be in the air as much as possible to get the hour requirements to join a regional airline, working there for 2 years to join a major airline UPS. It took her 4-5 years before making it to the major airlines from when she started. Once you get to the majors, everything gets a lot better. All the pilots I know joke around how they worked so hard to get to the major airlines only to work significantly less but make significantly more now that they are with the majors. You are completely right, there are pilots with stay-at-home wives, and most of those pilots feel like they need to upgrade to captain to have a higher income (I would do the same thing). They won't necessarily work more hours because the maximum # of hours a pilot can fly is 100 hours per month (you get paid OT after 85 hours, I believe). But they will feel more pressure to upgrade to captain and put in overtime if they have a stay-at-home wife.

"I am pretty sure that the senior pilot positions are limited, especially at the “good” airline company. If it’s so easy, then everybody would become a senior pilot and there would be very few junior pilots out there. The senior pilots who have good benefits, good work hours (same day travel….say day home) and good salary compensations, will hang on to their jobs for a long time…..and makes it harder for the younger junior pilots to move up the ladder."

There isn't necessarily a limit to senior pilots. Once you join a major airline, you start to gain seniority, and as people retire (forced to retire), your seniority goes up. The pay is essentially based on a 12-year period. Your first year is your lowest pay, and then by the 12th year is around your maximum you will make. Your hourly rating depends on a couple of different factors, the plane you fly and whether you are a captain or a first officer. She is a first officer in her mid-late 50s and never chose to upgrade to captain (for a major). The hourly pay for upgrading to captian is decent. For the plane she flies & for being a first officer, she is ranked between 5-10/120ish. Whereas if she upgrades to captain, she gets bumped to 40/140ish (not sure of the exact rankings), but she won't have as good of flights if she's captain because her seniority goes down (less day trips).

"It’s the same for dentistry. In order for me to enjoy the current lifestyle that I have now, I had to work 6 days/wk when I was a new grad. Nothing is easy in life. There’s no such thing as easy money….or get rich quick."

Any high-paying job requires sacrifice, especially dentistry. When my dad first started his clinic, he worked for someone else 5 days a week and started building his practice on the weekends. Eventually went full time on his clinic (5 days a week), went to 4 days a week 20 years ago, switched to 3 days a week 10 years ago, and in the coming months 2 days a week (adding an associate). No matter what, you have to pay your dues; it doesn't matter what career you choose.

"For me personally, one thing I hate the most about vacation away from home is flying….I hate waiting at the airports….I hate flying. I don’t know how the pilots can do this every day for so many years."

I completely understand this, and a lot of people out there feel the same exact way as you. Or they have anxiety about flying, as people do about going to the dental office for a simple cleaning. That's where you need to have a love and passion for aviation. My gf is obsessed with aviation; her favorite thing to do is go to the airport to watch airplanes land and take off (at least once a week). Whenever she sees an airplane in the sky, she instantly pulls out her phone to track it to see where it came from and where it's going to land. Her eyes light up the second she sees a plane. You really need a dying passion to become a pilot.

"If you think your mom’s job is better, then why do you decide to follow your dad’s footstep? I am just curious."

I don't think my mom has a better job than my dad, at least not for myself. I have done a few discovery flights before to see if I would enjoy flying, and I just didn't feel the calling that my mother or gf has for aviation. It is a really cool experience and I would recommend it to anyone interested, but I just didn't see myself enjoying it for the next 40+ years of my life.

A large reason why dentistry for me is because I love interacting with people, being around people, and helping them. I feel energized when I'm with people, and I have to be constantly moving - good ole ADHD (a reason why I could never do endo or sit in a cockpit for 9 hours). Additionally, I love the business aspect of dentistry and being able to create my own clinic. Forge it into a clinic I would have loved as a kid. I simply feel more of a calling toward dentistry over aviation. I think they are both great professions to go into. Both of them have difficult aspects to them, but all-in-all, if I'm doing a career that is able to support a family and I enjoy going to work most days, then that's enough for me.

 

[charlestweed]

You are absolutely right; before joining a major airline, when she wasn't married or had kids, she worked 6-7 days a week. She wanted to be in the air as much as possible to get the hour requirements to join a regional airline, working there for 2 years to join a major airline UPS. It took her 4-5 years before making it to the major airlines from when she started. Once you get to the majors, everything gets a lot better. All the pilots I know joke around how they worked so hard to get to the major airlines only to work significantly less but make significantly more now that they are with the majors. You are completely right, there are pilots with stay-at-home wives, and most of those pilots feel like they need to upgrade to captain to have a higher income (I would do the same thing). They won't necessarily work more hours because the maximum # of hours a pilot can fly is 100 hours per month (you get paid OT after 85 hours, I believe). But they will feel more pressure to upgrade to captain and put in overtime if they have a stay-at-home wife.



There isn't necessarily a limit to senior pilots. Once you join a major airline, you start to gain seniority, and as people retire (forced to retire), your seniority goes up. The pay is essentially based on a 12-year period. Your first year is your lowest pay, and then by the 12th year is around your maximum you will make. Your hourly rating depends on a couple of different factors, the plane you fly and whether you are a captain or a first officer. She is a first officer in her mid-late 50s and never chose to upgrade to captain (for a major). The hourly pay for upgrading to captian is decent. For the plane she flies & for being a first officer, she is ranked between 5-10/120ish. Whereas if she upgrades to captain, she gets bumped to 40/140ish (not sure of the exact rankings), but she won't have as good of flights if she's captain because her seniority goes down (less day trips).



Any high-paying job requires sacrifice, especially dentistry. When my dad first started his clinic, he worked for someone else 5 days a week and started building his practice on the weekends. Eventually went full time on his clinic (5 days a week), went to 4 days a week 20 years ago, switched to 3 days a week 10 years ago, and in the coming months 2 days a week (adding an associate). No matter what, you have to pay your dues; it doesn't matter what career you choose.



I completely understand this, and a lot of people out there feel the same exact way as you. Or they have anxiety about flying, as people do about going to the dental office for a simple cleaning. That's where you need to have a love and passion for aviation. My gf is obsessed with aviation; her favorite thing to do is go to the airport to watch airplanes land and take off (at least once a week). Whenever she sees an airplane in the sky, she instantly pulls out her phone to track it to see where it came from and where it's going to land. Her eyes light up the second she sees a plane. You really need a dying passion to become a pilot.



I don't think my mom has a better job than my dad, at least not for myself. I have done a few discovery flights before to see if I would enjoy flying, and I just didn't feel the calling that my mother or gf has for aviation. It is a really cool experience and I would recommend it to anyone interested, but I just didn't see myself enjoying it for the next 40+ years of my life.

A large reason why dentistry for me is because I love interacting with people, being around people, and helping them. I feel energized when I'm with people, and I have to be constantly moving - good ole ADHD (a reason why I could never do endo or sit in a cockpit for 9 hours). Additionally, I love the business aspect of dentistry and being able to create my own clinic. Forge it into a clinic I would have loved as a kid. I simply feel more of a calling toward dentistry over aviation. I think they are both great professions to go into. Both of them have difficult aspects to them, but all-in-all, if I'm doing a career that is able to support a family and I enjoy going to work most days, then that's enough for me.

A lot of people tend to think their own job is harder and has worse pay when they look at other people’s jobs…..aka the “grass is greener” syndrome. The pathway to get to the top paid level for any job requires many many years of hard work and sacrifice (missing out on youth years)…..it may be more difficult (both physically and mentally) than getting into dental school and surviving the 4 years there. Just because one is capable of earning a doctorate degree, it doesn’t mean that one is capable of performing any job.

Based on your description of what it takes to become a successful airline pilot, I think the pathway to become a dentist and to have a successful career is much easier for me. I don’t have any problem memorizing little details and do well in science classes. To me, earning a DDS degree is much easier than spending thousands of hours flying as a pilot…..easier than having to commute to work (a day before the flight time) in a small jump seat that cannot be reclined…..easier than having to eat the airport food every day. Nothing beats being your own boss and controlling your own work schedule.

When you listen to some of your friends/neighbors, who brag about how much they get paid for not having to go to college, you shouldn't believe them 100%. People tend to inflate their acheivements and their salaries.

Thanks for sharing your parents’ successful stories!

 

[DDS9994]

Here are the stories of the 2 airline pilots who quit their jobs because of the long crazy non-pay commutes to work...and unpredictable work schedules. I'd rather be a dentist.

Hehe, Im sure there are dentists who are being worked to the bone who feel the same way.lol

 

[charlestweed]

Hehe, Im sure there are dentists who are being worked to the bone who feel the same way.lol

Yeah, every job has its pros and cons. There's no such thing as easy money. No pain, no gain.

 

[EVILDENTIST]

Dentists are eating the 2 2ways:
1) Overhead creep- wages/supplies/subscription costs all up
2) Real world inflation.

The past 2 years have taught me a hard lesson what it all means. Pre-covid, inflation was 1-2% but the past 2 years has been 10%. Not only did I have to give raises of about 10-25%, (and therefore take a paycut myself), I had to also face the reality of 10% inflation in the real world. I wouldn't be surprised if my purchasing powerincome dropped 20% over the past 2 years.

I'm still financially ok in general- but I am definitely saving and planning for early retirement because as time goes on 2023-24-25-26, I wouldn't be surprised to see inflation at 3-5% while our pay continues to decrease- and working harder for less is just demoralizing.

What is funny and sad, is that I had to get rid of my fish tank. After taking a 10-20% paycut, I basically looked at all the misc items in the office and said well 50$ cable, 200$ fish tank makes no sense. Cya later.

For some reason the fish tank part made me feel really sad as well

 

[Thehighwind87]

For some reason the fish tank part made me feel really sad as well

Well when you have taken a huge paycut...it is what it is. On the bright side- I have decided to bring back the fish tank- but this time- I'm doing it myself.

Instead of saltwater- I'm doing freshwater and a goldfish. Low maintainence and no monthly fee. Just a few goldfish swimming in a 100 Gallon tank.

 

[brushyobreath]

bout tree fitty

 

[9ss]

If this is something you're passionate about then don't limit yourself and chase after what makes you happy.

 

[Thehighwind87]

If this is something you're passionate about then don't limit yourself and chase after what makes you happy.

Absolutely incorrect. Your 20 year old self might want it but your 30 year old self might not.

What I mean by this is just look at your normal life. At 20 years old you were a different person than you are at 30. The problem with large debt is that it absolutely shackles you down until it is paid off.

Having a large student loan is problematic as it will alter your life for decades to come until it’s taken care of. Being debt free or having reasonable debt allows you to pursue hobbies, work less, less work stress, etc etc.

Chasing after something in your 20s and carrying it well into your 40-50s is not smart.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

If this is something you're passionate about then don't limit yourself and chase after what makes you happy.

And when you graduate, you’ll soon find that your “passion” has turned into just a “job.” I would not pay what a third of schools charge to enter this “job.” That debt will significantly limit your life choices for DECADES!

Big Hoss

 

[9ss]

Im sorry you guys picked the wrong profession for yourselves. Should've gave it a bigger thought.

 

[The Kube of Kubes]

Im sorry you guys picked the wrong profession for yourselves. Should've gave it a bigger thought.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

Im sorry you guys picked the wrong profession for yourselves. Should've gave it a bigger thought.

Says the predent. Come back to us when you’ve been practicing for a few years.

Big Hoss

 

[askadds]

Says the predent. Come back to us when you’ve been practicing for a few years.

Big Hoss

HAHA classic response.

 

[Thehighwind87]

Im sorry you guys picked the wrong profession for yourselves. Should've gave it a bigger thought.

Have kids? Have a mortgage? Practice loan? Pay off your student loan debt?

Until you have these things checked off- you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, and unfortunately- when the real world comes knocking with 7% interest rate on a 500k-1 million dollar house, 700k-1 million dollar practice, 1000-3000$ revolving credit card bills for overall life living expenses while saving for their college, on top of a 300-500-700k student loan- then you realize the meaning of living like a broke college student- but instead you are a broke dentist.

The problem with me saying this- is like- it's hard to explain- but you are in so much debt that it's almost incomprehensible. Of course with reasonable debt- you can tackle it- but when you go to extremes- then it just becomes such a huge burden that it will affect your wellbeing. Having 2-3 mil of debt before you really start tackling anything is just insane to think about and I feel sorry for anyone that has that burden.

For me though- I honestly love my job, 4 day work week, make good money, market makes me money, paid off loans, and I would def recommend this field if you have reasonable debt. But with high debt, I would reconsider.

That's realistic.

 

[D1Bound]

Have kids? Have a mortgage? Practice loan? Pay off your student loan debt?

Until you have these things checked off- you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, and unfortunately- when the real world comes knocking with 7% interest rate on a 500k-1 million dollar house, 700k-1 million dollar practice, 1000-3000$ revolving credit card bills for the kid sports and events while saving for their college, on top of a 300-500-700k student loan- then you realize the meaning of living like a broke college student- but instead you are a broke dentist.

The problem with me saying this- is like- it's hard to explain- but you are in so much debt that it's almost incomprehensible. Of course with reasonable debt- you can tackle it- but when you go to extremes- then it just becomes such a huge burden that it will affect your wellbeing. Having 2-3 mil of debt before you really start tackling anything is just insane to think about and I feel sorry for anyone that has that burden.

For me though- I honestly love my job, 4 day work week, make good money, market makes me money, paid off loans, and I would def recommend this field if you have reasonable debt. But with high debt, I would reconsider.

That's realistic.

Why is it the expectation on here that you should have to save for your kid's college? I think helping to an extent is good, but I think they can handle some of it themself. 1-3k credit card debt for kid's sports? I still don't understand. Why is this the expectation?

 

[Thehighwind87]

Why is it the expectation on here that you should have to save for your kid's college? I think helping to an extent is good, but I think they can handle some of it themself. 1-3k credit card debt for kid's sports? I still don't understand. Why is this the expectation?

Let me rephrase- a 1-3k credit card revolving bill regarding groceries, utilities, netflix, amazon prime, apple music, eating out, kid events-sports-club, gym membership. When you have a FAMILY of 3-4- the bills add up real quick. Not when you are single and ready to mingle.

You can save for your kids college or not- it's your choice. I don't paying for reasonable tuition including dental school. Like I said- dental school is a great choice if you can keep the debt load reasonable. 4 day work week, can own your business, make great money, but it isn't handed to you on a silver platter- and in addition, its much easier to achieve this "dream" if you have a reasonable debt load. But going in blind and saying "pursue your dreams" is a recipe for disaster.

 

[LFA20]

This might be slightly off-topic but for those who will be taking on 400k-600k debt, why not do the PSLF(public service loan forgiveness)? Make 120 qualified payments toward your loans(10 years) while working for federal facilities(IHS, prison, VA, public health service, etc). and have your loans forgiven completely with no tax bomb? You can maintain a middle-class lifestyle without having to kill yourselves trying to live super frugal.

 

[todentornottodent]

This might be slightly off-topic but for those who will be taking on 400k-600k debt, why not do the PSLF(public service loan forgiveness)? Make 120 qualified payments toward your loans(10 years) while working for federal facilities(IHS, prison, VA, public health service, etc). and have your loans forgiven completely with no tax bomb? You can maintain a middle-class lifestyle without having to kill yourselves trying to live super frugal.

The one reason I can think of that makes sense would be if someone is taking over a parent's successful practice. Having that head start, although it doesn't provide an easily quantifiable advantage, provides an advantage nonetheless. That advantage can be converted/snowballed into great earning potential, pending smart business decisions and other related conditions lining up. And the parent probably wants to retire, so them waiting 10 years for you to do PSLF is undesirable.

Others might just be confident that they're gonna be one of those all star business savvy cosmetic dentists... and they might be. But it is a little foolish to make that claim when you have no idea what the future looks like. You don't know if you're gonna be the same person when you graduate dental school and when you're 5, 10, 20 years out of school. You might burn out sooner than expected. You might find you'd rather have a slower work flow. The procedures you're interested in might change.

The common denominator to those two is opportunity cost. 10 years a long time. A lot can be done with that time. Then again, 500k debt pre-interest is a lot of money. A lot can be done with that money. People make that decision based on their personal circumstances, circumstances they know best. But it is important to fully investigate the pros and cons both sides have. It's important to hear out what dentists who come from a variety of backgrounds have to say. Just dentists on SDN and Reddit doesn't cut it. Some dentists who are killing it might not have the time to browse SDN and contribute their two cents on a random thread. Just dentists who went to school 30 years ago when it was cheaper and less competitive doesn't cut it either.

 

[Thehighwind87]

The one reason I can think of that makes sense would be if someone is taking over a parent's successful practice. Having that head start, although it doesn't provide an easily quantifiable advantage, provides an advantage nonetheless. That advantage can be converted/snowballed into great earning potential, pending smart business decisions and other related conditions lining up. And the parent probably wants to retire, so them waiting 10 years for you to do PSLF is undesirable.

Others might just be confident that they're gonna be one of those all star business savvy cosmetic dentists... and they might be. But it is a little foolish to make that claim when you have no idea what the future looks like. You don't know if you're gonna be the same person when you graduate dental school and when you're 5, 10, 20 years out of school. You might burn out sooner than expected. You might find you'd rather have a slower work flow. The procedures you're interested in might change.

The common denominator to those two is opportunity cost. 10 years a long time. A lot can be done with that time. Then again, 500k debt pre-interest is a lot of money. A lot can be done with that money. People make that decision based on their personal circumstances, circumstances they know best. But it is important to fully investigate the pros and cons both sides have. It's important to hear out what dentists who come from a variety of backgrounds have to say. Just dentists on SDN and Reddit doesn't cut it. Some dentists who are killing it might not have the time to browse SDN and contribute their two cents on a random thread. Just dentists who went to school 30 years ago when it was cheaper and less competitive doesn't cut it either.

My personal thoughts is EGO. Alot of dentists that graduate fresh have a pretttty big ego. I'm gonna go to texas for a sign on bonus and my friend says he makes 300k first year!. Well I'm going to go buy a practice and make 500k!. Well I'm set cuz I got three jobs lined up for me in San Jose and I will take the highest offer.

Blah blah blah blah. It's normal- been there done that. Very rarely do any of these above scenarios play out. Usually they go there, work 1-2 months- and all the promises that were offered amount to nothing and low pay, job hop, job hop, and end up either buying a practice or languishing in the associateships (unless they find one that is good- which is incredibly hard to find).

The ones that are smart do PSLF.

 

[askadds]

My personal thoughts is EGO. Alot of dentists that graduate fresh have a pretttty big ego. I'm gonna go to texas for a sign on bonus and my friend says he makes 300k first year!. Well I'm going to go buy a practice and make 500k!. Well I'm set cuz I got three jobs lined up for me in San Jose and I will take the highest offer.

Blah blah blah blah. It's normal- been there done that. Very rarely do any of these above scenarios play out. Usually they go there, work 1-2 months- and all the promises that were offered amount to nothing and low pay, job hop, job hop, and end up either buying a practice or languishing in the associateships (unless they find one that is good- which is incredibly hard to find).

The ones that are smart do PSLF.

- To make 300k as an associate, you need to produce over 1 million by yourself w/o HYG, good luck with all that considering in the last 2 years of clinical rotations you have struggled to produce 20k max and the idea is you will come out to produce over a million annually? I know amazing docs that have been at this game for decades and they can't do this. Only the top top gunners in the class will fall into this category
- 500k? There are a handful lucky ones out there that EVER reach this milestone.

I agree with you, this is all blah blah. Funny thing is that all these folks dont know that we have not seen increases in our reimbursements for decades, probably since most of these folks got their first permanent teeth. LOL

Fantastic career are the right price!

BUTTTTT I dont think any of the predental students are at fault. They dont know any better and want to do big things in life. The ADA, ADEA and the schools are at fault! They have caved into the insurance folks and refuse to do jack about it. They have brainwashed everyone and unless we get changes from the top, these same folks will start posting here in 4 years bitching about dentistry.